Cosmos App-Chain Thesis and ATOM 2.0: A Deep Dive with Zaki Manian and Jack Zampolin

[00:00:00]this episode is brought to you by Circle the issuer of usdc which hopefully as you all know is the preferred stable coin of digital Natives and crypto natives with over 1.5 million holders globally you'll hear more about usdc later in the show all right everyone we have uh I think the most requested episode that we've had in what maybe six seven eight months here which is uh basically when Santi and I talk about things happening on D5 we tend to talk about things happening on ethereum right compound Ave maker uniswap kind of these like what you think of as like eth protocols uh a lot of folks have requested that we do a big Cosmos episode we put out a call to action saying who should we have to do a cosmos episode we got back a lot of responses Jack and Zaki were the overwhelming response uh and the favorite to represent the cosmos crowd so Jack and Saki welcome welcome to Empire guys yeah I mean it's been a huge uh it's a huge pleasure it's uh I've been uh I've known Santi for a long time um and uh it is really exciting to to be here I've also been a fan you know just keeping up with everything going on in D5 um yeah defy I mean to me like there are many applications of blockchains but Defy is my favorite and it is the thing that I love and understand the most so yeah whatever came it's on I like it the best it's the most fun of them indeed I'm excited to talk about it I think it's really important I was spending a lot of time thinking about this episode thinking about where to start and I think it's actually important to start with the history and the backstory of Cosmos which we rarely do um but I think it's important because Cosmos when I think about it is like this interesting case of it's like been talked about since kind of 2015 2016 really 2017 the token hit the scene in 2019. It's this interesting Beast of like it's rare that something in crypto hasn't failed but hasn't like really super thrived I would say it's kind of just like done well over the last several years and so maybe saki if I could ask you to take us back to like that 2015 conference in Mountain View I ideas are getting talked about proof of stake delegation like take us back to the early Cosmos days okay so I like I I want I want you guys to imagine the world of 2015 in crypto um like basically no one cared is like the close is the biggest answer like all of us like to the extent that anyone cared like you could sell blockchains to Banks like it was just like you were just like agents in this bizarre Innovation theater and I had a startup company called skew chain and we were doing a lot of that Innovation Theory squishy is still around but uh and like actually you know some of the Enterprise blockchain stuff is still like alive from that era but um the uh you know and then so what there was is there was this thing there was this this email list it's called the crypto economic research Group Forum uh it was a Google group uh you know really really ancient technology a Google group the children like nobody this is like Discord for like very old bed right like this is your world right and it was actually quite like it was an invite-only Google group um but like vitalik was on it um you know like a lot of the like you know a lot of CEOs of like early crypto companies were on it we were running this thing called blockchain University where we were inviting people to like come to our office on the weekend and like learn about blockchains it was this it was a crazy world um just sort of so unimaginable and like literally you could fit like everyone who was interested in thinking about public blockchains like in one room at like 75 people so we had this idea we came up with this idea um lighting from who was one of the co-founders of divinity at the end of the day um had this idea of why don't we have the mailing list like come like why do we invite the mailing list to like come visit us in person like we're gonna get the mailing list together um so that's what we did and uh Jay wasn't on the mailing list but like he was a friend of mine um and like we've been talking about 10 around I'm like this Jay guy has like really cool ideas about proof mistake like why don't I put them in the same room with all these like you know what what were the leading lights of blockchain back then um and so the whole thing is on on YouTube is you could still watch it there's like a Twitter account also that tweeted it out uh I can get I can get links for your show notes um so but like this so you know got all this stuff together so Vlad and vitalik were already friends you know and Vlad was off Vlad was being Vlad was always Vlad um and Vlad brought one of his friends from college to this event Ethan Buckman um and like I don't if you like I said I think if someone were to write a comprehensive history of modern of the history of blockchain that conference ends up being like the most important thing that ever happened like I don't think vitalik ever really uh took proof of stake seriously until he saw Jay's Thunderman presentation um like that was I think that really got the and like I remember talking to him afterwards you know it really got the wheels spinning on like oh this can like really be a thing like there's this thing other than Nakamoto proof of stake like definitely got his on his the wheels turning um and so but also that then like Ethan who had been um working on like a build a version of ethereum for the banks called Eris um back in the day was like hey this tenderment thing is really cool maybe I can start contributing to him with Jay um so they hit it off um and that was that was the world of 2015. so you know it is probably best understood that um you know Cosmos is not an ethereum killer it is a pure project with ethereum it has coexisted it is as old as ethereum um it is it comes from like very much uh uh and it just sort of you know we we decided to Prior like Jay really wanted to make proof of stake like a thing that people would take seriously it was like really his mission and like that meant he wanted like academics professors like the people at IBM research right all of these people he wanted them he wanted to convince every single like the smartest people in consensus the most legit people in consent census that like this could be a real thing um so you know tender my journey goes on um 2016 uh so they try and sell tendermint to banks in 2015 fail miserably thank god um and 2016 Jay and Ethan are like we want to do a public chain um I have some ideas I my my my version of the history you know I everybody has their own everybody else has their own version my version of the history was I had this idea that I'd been bouncing around which was take the like Mark Miller and Dean's work from the 90s they have this crazy website called e-rights.org they were proposing the system I got real frustrated with like Vlad and metallics like sharding ideas I was just like this is never going to work turns out you know seven years later they agree with me um that uh that like at that time I thought I was never going to work so I was like let's try and figure something else out Mark Miller had this website e-rights.org it had this whole protocol for like into like running smart contracts just on ordinary servers no blockchain where like where the chains went so you didn't have to solve data availability so then I was like why don't we do this but like instead of having it be servers make them tender mint uh explain this idea to Jay and Ethan uh Ethan goes off and run writes the cosmos white paper um it was called nuclear back then and Jay immediately shares it with Gavin and uh and Rob and that turns into polka dot um and here we go isn't it super tanker was it super tanker was your idea before nuclear which was the not not the Mark Miller idea the idea that's like sort of like Celestia is now saki what was the issue that so you said vitalik like wasn't taking proof of stake seriously until Jay brought this presentation about tendermint uh to the table what was the problem that Jay was trying to solve here there was this problem with slashing right which was so like you do the bad thing so like everybody only thought in blockchains everybody was only thinking Nakamoto consensus Nakamoto proof of stake Nakamoto uh uh but you have this problem in proof of stake which was okay so like you do the you like equivocate here you get slashed up here now but like you make a fork before you get slashed and like you don't see the slashing on the fork right and this is just like the never-ending problem of everyone's proof of stake algorithms back then it was like how do you actually and then Jay was like What if you have finality what if you just actually like don't have a fork what if you resolve the forks and you anyway you include the slash in consensus and everyone agrees that you got slashed and now you don't have this problem anymore and now slashing and proof of stake compose which was like slashing was Vitale's idea he had the slasher blog post out in 2014 but didn't really have a solution to this and he had like some crazy complicated mechanism that he was proposing in the slasher paper and Jay was like no but like what if we just have like two f plus one agreement and consensus and the finality and then slashing just works and he was right uh and that that like I think really changed vitalik's perspective on the whole thing but this is like my reconstruction of like eight years ago it feels like um it feels like a lot of the ideas that are kind of like what I would call Mainstream eth today proof of stake like honestly like very almost what feel basic like slashing and delegation and like liquid staking now is like very hot it feels like a lot of these things are like Cosmos ideas from eight years ago that I think a lot of people don't realize that Cosmos folks kind of came up with because maybe Cosmos didn't like propagate The Narrative well enough or something but is that you've always been terrible at that we're trying to fix that now I mean when when I first found ethereum it was before I was working in blockchain I was working kind of In traditional Cloud technology and I was building developer tools at the time and I remember installing solidity and compiling my first contract and uploading it and my first thought was this is a terrible developer experience no one's going to use this I think that you know that's why we went down that app that like that's a huge part of the reason why I ended up finding Cosmos I was like oh this app chain thesis makes a lot more sense to me from kind of a traditional scaling perspective and like we should go down this route but what I don't think a lot of the people who are in Cosmos anticipated is how much appetite there was for this like Publix more Contracting environment and what would sort of come out of that um so yeah we had a lot of these ideas about the fundamental consensus stuff but about the application environment like we've been in a different world for a while I want to fast forward them okay so like you've got the like very early days you've got this Mountain View conference Cosmos brings a lot of the Big Ideas to the table fast forward maybe three four five years you guys introduce Adam and maybe 2019. uh my understanding and again this is like total outside review is that a lot of the fighting and like the split within Cosmos that like I remember I think it was early 2020 it was like Jay stepping down there's infighting and I was like oh this thing's dead like this thing's gone uh that was due to to my understanding is like something about the Hub and something about Adam so can you maybe fast forward us to like 2019 2020.

[00:11:51]I don't know that that was like uh you know the the core narrative is that there was always a lot of tension like Jay was never an easy guy to work with and there was always a lot of tension um you know I felt like I was holding project together with my bare hands and maybe Jack can agree that I was holding the project together with it right like you know it's like Ethan was just like constantly like ready to quit uh uh uh like half that half that like most a lot of the engineering teams also it was like basically the shared Vision that we like this like belief among people like Chris goes and sunny and Jack and Ethan that like we were building the correct thing and that was all and we even you know that it was there's so many names that I could put who just like put so much Faith like the incentive alignment was completely screwed up like all kinds of problems but like everybody really believed we were building the right thing for the long run um and so everybody was real everyone really put together in a like yeah but and I did did feel like I was holding the thing with together with my bare hands and so in you know part of our our our vision like the part of the reality of it was on one hand the thing that kept everyone together though before launch was that if we didn't launch like nothing would ever exist right if we didn't actually finish tender mint if we didn't actually finish get proof of stake out there like none of the other stuff that we all were imagining that was started to come into existence would exist so it like really kept everyone in this pressure cooker but it was like really hard like I mean we took like we took Jay and Ethan to like a cabin in Colorado for like a week and like stuck them with like basically an executive coach trying to just keep the thing alive for like another couple of months um like we were really it was a really hard time but the one of the things that like really changed the game in 2019 2020 was once Cosmos was alive and like binance adopted the cosmos SDK Adam got listed everywhere um we didn't need tenderment the company anymore to keep the project alive I mean that was the honest truth um and so when Jay decided to like become more difficult to work with as sometimes he does um You Know Jack and I quit the engineering team spun out into the new organization working for the foundation you know the kinds of you know the kind of purple pill style drama that happened in maker basically happened in Cosmos and in some ways makers are just like maker survived we survived um but a lot of it was just the certainty of once we had gotten kind of gotten the technology where we needed we didn't need to all be trapped in we didn't you know necessarily have to keep working with Jay and uh you know but that is the test of like whether or not you built something actually decentralized can it like can it survive that uh you know can you can you can you burn the bridges and and jump I remember talking to you in in San Francisco uh uh right around that time because I was actually looking at investing in the tournament round which Paradigm ended up leading and that was I think one of the First Investments Paradigm did um I think one of the things that is really interesting when I first discovered um Cosmos was this idea that tender mint and has been pretty battle tested and like the credit around proof of stake and having a different consensus engine other than Nakamoto consensus it's pretty battle tested and most people are really surprised and look we're a day out of the merge which has been in the works for such a long time yeah but um I think most people don't really appreciate tendermen as a consensus engine it's pretty battle tested like Byzantine fault tolerant kind of system and um and that other projects have adopted that like you alluded to like binance and Facebook was looking at using it uh for their you know Novi or Libra and Terra you know and so Facebook you could spend liked it so much they rewrote it in Rust made it pipelined it's like a yeah and so what I'm trying to get at is there's there's sort of I think most people would be surprised to learn around this idea the proof of stake is not like something new that's coming online tomorrow of course it gets more validity um ethereum having migrated to it and we'll see how it works out but I'm curious if you could give listeners more appreciation for that type of consensus it you know you guys really kind of worked on over the last couple years and how battle tested it has been um because it is very timely now that we're you know a day out uh from the market yeah you want to talk about the early days of the tender and test nuts Jack yeah you know we've done so many of these networks at this point and it there was this strong culture of test Nets and you see a lot of people doing incentivized test Nets now and that's what Zaki and I did with game of stakes first and then game of zones for IBC um but Solana did one near did one all of the major L ones kind of did it and that was a result of our work um you know I think one of the also the whole validator Community around ethereum and Lido that gets so much press like those people were all Cosmos Genesis validators I'll put a pause here because I was uh I think we were the largest investor one of the largest investors in light I want to purify because I knew those guys back in the day Ron and validators and running like these these game mistakes that you're talking about yeah those guys had a ton of experience and so when I looked them like yeah these guys are super battle tested they were like the number one validator it was crazy we were all figuring it out together in this like weird set of Riot chat rooms there was this like OG Riot chat room that's like completely lost to history at this point the Bison Trails Founders met each other in that chat room yeah you know I think one of the cool things about proof of stake is is it when you stand these networks up it's like a barn raising it takes sometimes a hundred different people all collaborating to do that and that's what created this kind of strong validator Community that's gone out and seeded all of these other proof of stake networks like polka dot and near and E2 as well um but it was that huge series of test Nets and then going and launching Cosmos chain after Cosmos chain where we kind of built that capability um and a lot of it is around the developer ease of use the operator ease of use that we built into the software to help run these things and uh yeah man that was that was such a fun thing that was such fun work I wanna I wanna Push It Forward into like the the basically the app train thesis the the cosmos thesis and like why you guys are here and like why this is so important to talk about what maybe Jack can I pick on you for this one and then exactly we'll see uh if you if you agree with that please what is the what is the cosmos thesis around app chains are better oh build better apps uh to build better apps on your own chain you do it on your own chain instead of on this like monolithic chain like ethereum but can you say it much more elegantly than I ever could I I look at this from a Computing history Computing standpoint I think about blockchains a lot like computers a single smart Contracting blockchain is a lot like a super computer it's single threaded you know you could make these things multi-threaded and that's a whole other discussion and things people like sui and Aptos are working on that but if you have a single threaded computer there's only so fast you can make that thread Spin and you know you can either make the computer a lot bigger or you can make a bunch of different computers and network them and if we look at the history of computing all the way up through the early 80s people thought you know maybe we're going to have all these super computers and then everyone have a terminal that connects to it and do your processing there and it wasn't really fully until Google developed mapreduce in the early 2000s when they were networking together tens of thousands of computers to build compute clusters that were thousands of times more capable than the largest supercomputers when it became obvious that computer networking was the way forward and I think that blockchains are this way too if you look at it from a fundamental perspective trying to shove all of the apps on the world on one single threaded computer that's going to fail you know it's going to be really expensive maybe there's use cases for it and it's really cool and like I think that you know the synchronous composability stuff around things like flash loans could have never developed outside of that uh and there's a lot of kind of dirty topics there but fundamentally I think with the app chain thesis is in order to scale blockchains to meet the demands of seven to eight billion people in the world there's going to need to be a lot of them and they're going to need to talk to each other and if that's the world that you're building for what you end up building looks a lot more like IPC it looks like a software development kit for organizations companies apps to build their own blockchains and I think that's kind of the fundamental app thesis as I see it so maybe we can spend a minute there because I think a Critic here might say wait a minute I understand that not every application needs to have the exact same level of security a game is different than a D5 application depends on what you're transacting and the value that's being exchanged but walk us through from a project perspective you know you're you're using the shared security model and I want people to really understand that because I don't think it's a concept that is kind of in like it could be intuitive but it could be difficult to like wrap your head around that so how does it actually work this shared security um like system uh if you're like a new developer you want to kind of come to Cosmos and build there maybe just spend a moment walking us through how that would work so are we talking about shared Security on the cosmos Hub are we talking about shared Security in a system like polkadot are we talking about shared Security in a system like Celestia let's pick the cosmos hub okay um so just to be clear most Cosmos chains now have their own validator sets and you know yes I do agree with you not every application is going to need its own validator set I would argue however that an application once it reaches a certain size will likely want its own validator set I think that's a different conversation but in shared Security on the cosmos Hub the cosmos Hub validators will validate your chain for you and the way that this would work as a developer is you build your chain using all of the same toolkit that you would use to build the standard Cosmos chain and then you would put up a governance proposal in the cosmos Hub and say hey Cosmos Hub validators do you guys want to run our chain two and if the Hub validators accept that they start running that software or else they get slashed by consensus and that chain is now live trusting The Hub validator set for their security and in this case they would be earning some sort of um you know validation rewards um from that new chain um exactly yeah and how does um so there would be the cause sort of visualize that there'd be the cosmos Hub all these different chains that make proposals what's the limitation in terms of the number of chains that can make proposals is there like an upper bound or do you end up spinning different hubs for different type of use cases or the D5 Hub there's gaming Hub um I'm curious how this uh kind of scales out yeah I think this gets down to kind of a a difference in engineering cultures in Cosmos we really strongly believe in kind of ship and iterate get a good V1 out there get users and then build on so with that sort of framing the first version of shared security that we're shipping to the cosmos Hub is a V1 every validator on the cosmos Hub validates each of the child chains and for that there's probably a practical upper limit of around 10 to 20. chains that can be validated in that way a V2 of shared security takes a only a portion of the validators and a portion of the stake on the cosmos Hub it provides security for the child chains and that's a much more scalable architecture now I will note that V2 version of interchange security as a child chain you could rent security from say the cosmos Hub and osmosis and like maybe dyd exchange and in that way each of the chains sort of create this interlocking web of security with each other um that's a different system but the first system like 10 to 20 chains is kind of the upper bound yeah I mean I don't want to get too ahead but I just one topic that I want to please get more understanding and then this is more for listeners right I think like the follow-up question to that is well talk to us about renting and how expensive that is and you know if you're you talk about this transition of a chain you know at some point we'll want to have its own validator set but in the shared model initially like how expensive it is for them you know and what kind of what's their calculus when they're making the consideration of deploying and going to Cosmos versus perhaps another ecosystem like I'm sure the renting cost is something that they think about and but I'm curious to get your perspective as a ecosystem right when you were when you're sort of breathing one of like whether you're breathing like a a dow on top of ethereum into life or like one of these Dows as chains that we have in Cosmos um into life it's basically it comes down to like how you're going to allocate tokens over the life cycle of the prop oh you know the life cycle of the project does um as it and you know what we've seen a lot in Cosmos is quite like substantial like and like generally in proof of stake is like a lot of like very large validator incentives um uh up front to like come over join our chain be part of it like just in terms of like total token Supply and initial issuance initial liquidity like like very large uh uh allocations you know it's like evmos osmosis all of these things are just like printing like massive staking and delegation validated rewards right um one of the things that I think that is like a consequence of interchange security is you're going to start seeing a lot more a lot of different experiments now in token allocation and how you spend your your token Budget on things so it's like Neutron when it launches Neutron is like uh one of the early uh interchange secured uh Chains It's a general purpose from our contract environment um by one of the teams that is a core contributor to Lido as well the P2P validator team um they keep coming up um because they are the best um but they're building a permission with smart contract chain um they are they can be a lot more deliberative about how they allocate the neutron token because they don't have to spin up a validator set from nothing they have to send some amount of neutrons to sort of cover the incremental costs of you know spinning up new nodes and stuff like that but there are people who are running the validators or you know their bills are being paid by the Adam token the cosmos Hub largely and now you're sort of starting to share costs among these two Dows so it allows you to have change that's been up that don't have a negative token that send their transaction fees to the cosmos Hub um we're gonna have we're you know a key part of like the sort of atom 2.0 thesis is we're going to do a bunch of stuff around Meb uh in this environment um there's like a lot to go here um and so I do think the character of Cosmos chains and the feel of Cosmos change and the economics of Cosmos trans are really set set up for a revolution in 2023.

[00:28:09]Jack talk about the different advantages like Santi asked a really good question about the secure the shared security I called folks like Cosmos folks before this kind of doing a little prep for the episode one person says shared security is the most important thing the other person says uh like communication interoperability is the most important thing the third person says uh if you don't have your own blockchain as an app you're going to leak value from the economic transactions of the DAP users why would anyone want that once you want to capture the value three different answers three different people so in your guys's Minds what like what is the core reason core thesis behind moving on to your own app chain is the security the communication the not leaking value is different for every project and that is the Glorious thing right the the the the okay so the core of the app chain thesis to me is actually full stack optimization um I think one of the things that um I think one of the reasons why Cosmos like if I had to guess like one macro reason why Cosmos is sort of on the top of everyone's Minds is suddenly talked about you know this project that you know is an overnight success after you know having been worked on for eight years um is uh is basically like I guess our thesis and like our thesis has kind of played out which is we were like It's Gonna people are like don't know what apps they're building we don't know how to build anything in D5 we don't know why all these things are just like Concepts we don't know what's going to work what's not gonna work um so it was it's and honestly it like one deficiency of Cosmos is the iteration Cycles are much longer than like shipping smart contracts on top of ethereum on top of Roll-Ups all this stuff like you know the the you know the life cycle of a build out is is is typically you know six to nine months is like kind of a typical like MVP build out on top of on top of the cosmo stack we could do a lot to make that shorter but that is a big part of life um and so people have to kind of decide what they want right so like dydx rewrote this is their fourth rewrite of the app um uh and it's you know they've learned a lot from their user base about like what actually matters what do they actually want and so this like deeper build out this build this like more complex less ship and iterate build out that they've been yielding in Cosmos they have like a lot of actual like this is what our users want this is what market makers want kind of information um and so one of the reasons why we think I think that Cosmo is because of the last like three two three years of building out in defy people will now have a much better idea of what would work what would not work what is worth the slightly higher like engineering costs but the ability to do full stack optimization um to like fully optimize bottom top to bottom the system to do the app yeah I think that's a really interesting point saki where I I felt that osmosis really put um Cosmos back in the map I mean IBC took a while to ship which I was kind of waiting for and really excited because the common kind of criticisms that I keep hearing makes like it's a very interesting design very modular like I grew with everything you said but I just don't know Valley's going to accrue to atoms and and you're taking a bet on that being the primary Hub and to me it's like I was waiting in IBC and I was going to conferences you know nonetheless we fast forwarded now so you have like osmosis really I think put Cosmos back in the map it's like okay wow like they've really taken a lot of designs from D5 and ethereum and made a lot of optimizations to that and then you're seeing now dydx migrate over I'm curious if you guys can comment on what like you guys are so deep in it like what is going through the mind of the team at dydx and and do you anticipate kind of other projects moving over and deploying their own chain after seeing what the dydx uh you know is is doing uh I I I'm excited about this like I I will say a couple of things one is so um like I can walk you through the thought process of dydx um because I kind of went along with a bit a bit of the journey with them which is you know they build star they built on top of Stark X right um so Stark X is this product I mean the team built it for them because they didn't really yes for them I mean they built a lot they built the order book they built the matching engine they built like the collateral system like all kinds of stuff like it's not like they built nothing I but like there's this like core settlement engine wait essentially you could think of it almost having the same sort of function as like what IBC does in Cosmos right it was basically a bridge between what was going on in their application and what was going on what needed to be settled onto the ethereum chain like and starboard built this for them um you know and they were very happy like they do like a billion dollars of volume every day like it's crazy um like it's amazing product it's like you know the most product Market fit that we've seen and anything in defy compared to Central exchange trading d-ydx it's an absolute state of our product but as this like over compliance and as the sort of compliance with the sanctions regime has kind of this thing that like you know credit to the dydx founders for seeing this months in advance but maybe even more than a year in advance they were like well we have this problem which is we're functional we're running a centralized order book right we're running a centralized order book we have to complete we are in a tenuous regulatory position that you know we are not censorship resistant you know if we want to be the liquidity engine of the world we are not censorship resistant um you know ethereum censorship resistance we are not because we have to run this we run the setup servers that match everyone's orders et cetera so then they like kind of and like how to decentralize apps that have this architecture has been like an honest struggle for Starcraft I talked to uh Ellie and Yuri like all the time um all the Roll-Ups are also struggling with like how do you decentralize their sequencers and you kind of come to this question of well if you wanted to keep Stark X but also have a decentralized sequencer you kind of have to bolt Stark X and tendermint together and that's like a research project like how to do that like what the best way to do that is and you know it's like starkware has some blog posts about like wanting to do this but it's like at least two years out it's like not anytime soon so then d y d x but like dydx wanted to go faster and they were like what can we do so then they were like well okay so they're saying use tenderness okay like what would we do with tendermen um and then they started they like sort of rediscovered a design for a Decks that like sunny and I had like been like working on like back in 2018 this idea of this like in-memory multi-chain order book or a multi-validator order book or the where the where the decks unlike serum or other like uh seawab style dexes that we're familiar with rather than having the decks on chain you have the decks in the validators like server itself um or you have the order book there and then you only settle on chain um you can provide an experience that basically looks with like a lot of engineering effort you can build an experience that looks like FTX basically um uh on top of an architecture like this it's going to be amazing um uh but it's also decentralized in censorship resistance so like I'm like real excited about like what dydx is building um and it's going to interoperate with IBC um you're going to have uh but then you also have the stuff like right now you have you can you know their token potential you know can be debated but like has a value accrual problem like now the token becomes a staking token uh you get Mev accrual to the to the state to the like to the validators and the the people who stick with them from liquidations on the Chain like you know now you you are operating in this like full stack economic zone where you actually can integrate the token integrate censorship resistance like really build something amazing um yeah and so yeah like I mean kudos to the dydx team for both like figuring this out finding themselves no one sold tendermen to them there's no like tender mint sales force that like marched into their office and was like Hey like you should as well I would go ahead and say that Zaki is the tenderbent sales force they had already decided they were already spun up on tendermint before I leave was that it's like the best salesman is the one that tells you he's not a Salesman and you're like just convinces you but yeah yeah um let me just finish this one thing it was like yeah they were pretty far down the tenement Road by the time I got there um but they've been very collaborative with the entire Cosmos Community um and it's been a real pleasure working with them this might I'm not even entirely sure this question makes sense but if I'm thinking about this in the right way once an app reaches product Market fit and like really takes off are they like are they disincentivized in a way to contribute back to the security of the Hub or the security of the protocol um like if you're over here that's like a really interesting I mean do you have any thoughts on this Jack before I talk about it I mean I think the public goods public goods funding problem is is serious in this industry and like we see that in ethereum quite a bit um you know Zaki and I have been pretty deeply engaged in trying to figure out how to get a lot of these new chains that are spinning up to contribute back to the core software I think we've got some exciting stuff to announce at uh cross reverse but yeah um I would also say that so we have a you know on one hand we are sort of building interchange Security in such a way that like exiting the system and entering the system is actually going to be pretty easy like you could have a sovereign chain and like decide you want to move to share to the shared security model we're going to have like a relatively well tested upgrade path for that and we're also going to have a relatively well tested path for hey like this isn't working out we would like to just like we would like to part ways let us uh uh now there are downsides to making weaving so easy um it definitely is going to put sort of pricing pressure on the system but like it also should make it easy a stronger incentive to join um so I think a lot about that I'm not going to really do we're not going to do it any different way uh at the end of the day we're not going to produce an artificial barrier just to keep people in the system and hopefully the shared security adds enough value that people want to stay and just for listeners to kind of conceptualize this would be like for instance you have very successful D5 project comes and says hey I want the shared security from the cosmos hub it initially You Know It uh it benefits from the validator set it just focuses on building the app uh you know fast forward a year they're getting a ton of traction and they might want to just spin out build their own and and convince validators that have been part of the cosmos Hub to say hey come just to my chain and and just call it a day like um if I'm interpreting what you're saying like that is certainly feasible and possible and I'm curious if there have been attempts to do this and if there been projects that have done this already projects that have switched back and forth between shared security already or just like yeah exactly just exited the cosmos Hub and and just launched their own chain it's not live like we we don't have it so every Cosmos chain right now runs their own validator set so a lot of this stuff around like multi-layered security and you know Roll-Ups and like kind of theoretical at this point well there's a test net running there's a testament running it goes live on the Hub we have this like whole portfolio of so Neutron is the publicly announced one and then we have a bunch of things that happen like it's crazy we we actually have like a decentralized Biz Dev team with like 15 different entities sitting in a telegram chat and like we like figure this stuff out and like when people want to join the cosmos Hub now like you have to like sign like at least four ndas with different entities uh just getting progress but people do it it's wild yeah yeah that's kind of an interesting side light on Cosmos is uh you know I see a lot of complaints about low voter participation endows on ethereum and the way we built Cosmos governance each chain is effectively a Dao and there's been a lot of work on making effective Dows in Cosmos and like when Zacky is talking about a decentralized Biz Dev or like that's our Biz Dev Dow for Cosmos and you know we've got a lot of really great Dao tooling around governance and you know we've used these things fairly extensively like in average Cosmos Hub governance proposal at this point gets 60 to 70 000 votes and that's just orders of magnitude more voter participation than you see in a lot of eBay styles all right everyone time for a quick word from Circle and uscc as a crypto user you know the power of stable coins dollar digital currencies that transcend borders banking hours and Legacy Financial rails while circles usdc has quickly become one of the most trusted and widely used stable coins it's simple people use usdc because of its composability its stability and its reserved transparency and usdc isn't just adopted by a few of us defy degens and Dows and nft marketplaces crypto companies alike they all leverage usdc to diversify their treasury asset management and ecosystem-wide composability the adoption's clear usdc has grown to more than 50 billion dollars in circulation since launching in 2018. we all have and we all will continue to take shots on our favorite volatile crypto assets obviously but usdc is one of the easiest ways to store your funds in a stable asset that can be used to send value around the world almost instantly it lowers the cost of cross-border payments it integrates into the growing ecosystem of crypto apps as a seamless trusted dollar digital currency usdc is a zero to one opportunity for the financial system if you want to learn more about usdc I would recommend you check out the recently published transparency Hub on circle.com it's a great update to circles content on usdc it outlines everything from links to their weekly Reserve reports monthly attestations blog posts that are written by their exec team that highlight how and why usdc was built the way it is really recommend it just go to circle.com backslash transparency to access it now let's get back to the show yeah I guess um where I was going with this is uh you know the Hub and spoke model is now looking more like or will probably look more like point to point like mesh security kind of architecture where you have you know maybe an oracle interacting with a D5 like a perps protocol and that they could like they're very active zones they could have a lot of shared security and they have a vested interest in both of them and so like look it's like trade routes historically like if you have a trade route between you know country and Country B then that builds relationship and you don't have wars uh when someone breaks a trade the trade route you get Wars um and so like the stress canal and stuff like this um so my question really is where I've struggled with this is we don't like to like make speculation or make any Financial advice here but the criticism and concern that a lot of people over the years have had is talk to me about value cruel and it does by the way this just does not apply to Cosmos Adam as the center like security substrate or whatever this applies to like is this more of a philosophical question of value accrual and Jack you kind of alluded to like public goods like what a cruise value in this transition um I'm curious like how you guys think about all of that um value accrual and it's a very Broad and open question but nonetheless Absecon value um and you know the cosmos have as an application was never theorized to accrue value and you know out of 2.0 I I've been reading quite a bit more we've been in these working groups the last few months and zaki's been leading a lot of that and uh you've been especially over the last couple of days in preparation for Cosmo versus reading up a lot on that uh we've got some really exciting things coming for Adam the application um but yeah what a cruise value in this world and which we've built a bunch of sort of Open Source Code that helps underlie all of these things well it's the applications and the networks of people in validators that end up accruing the value and that's kind of where it should be in a lot of ways so a couple of comments like one of the best memes I think in Cosmos is that like Cosmos is coming to kill your fat protocol thesis like you've got you've you've got your fat protocol thesis we we like you know you know uh uh uh uh Steel Man the building of the thing that murders your your fat protocol thesis so that's like first the first uh the first sort of Cosmos like meme about like value curl I think the second thing is absolutely true which is in the long run assuming blockchains are actually good Computing platforms that like lots of people use the application layer is the layer that like Mo has the queerest is the stickiest is the place where the application or Cruise value like and like I imagine that like what I'm expecting of the world is like the top 20 tokens will just be like different sports teams like sure you'll have a sports team and we'll cheer when some big application comes to our sports teams like little neck of the woods but like at the end of the day the sports teams will just be like we make a product people go on TV they buy nachos like this is where the value equal is it's like great that you have you know that this is uh so that's the third thing and then the third thing is like one of the things that we did for a whole variety of reasons was essentially we were like if you look at the original Cosmos white paper it talks extensively about the cosmos Network how we think it's all going to work how IBC is going to work all that stuff it doesn't say anything about like it barely just basically says there will be this atom token and you can stake it like yay um and like really doesn't really have a story about like what this token is for um and I think you'll see and like this is this is this is my you know I continue to have be dropping hits until uh 12 days from now and we we go on stage and we we kind of like what the open the kimono but this thing that we've been working on for months um but the other thing that is true is so like the other thing is like I don't know I've hated the polka dot mechanism the like parachain auction mechanism I was like if you have a thing that is actually scalable there's no scarcity um and it's hugely adverse selecting to be like airdrop 30 of your tokens to like the to the dot holders to like get a slot for two years like it's that's just like a value accrual it's like an adverse selection nightmare like you want to build the best bring the best protocols so like how do we build a value accrual mechanism for Adam that doesn't have adverse selection that like take that like understands that the biggest value accruers in tender in the cosmos ecosystem are going to be the applications and Adam is not going to be itself a D5 application platform uh in like the truest sense of the word it's not going to be like a dydx um but like how do we still align value accrual in Cosmos and like things that we only dreamed about in 2016 are now very real uh things like we saw Olympus Dow happened we saw uh uh we saw like Mev is a real thing that like we actually know what it would how the med Market will behave like there's a lot of stuff so like the three legs of the school are like look at things like Olympus doubt look at things like liquid spido look at things like uh uh flash Bots these are all really exciting things from this from these pieces we construct our atom 2.0 yeah but to be fair though um and I get that I think my understanding is Adam serves as like when you're slashing like there needs to be like there's this security substrate like there's value at stake and you can get slashed and you know you're staking your atoms and and that secures the chain right and so you know if you're initially you're some of the if you have a Zone like you're a project like you have like atoms become like this kind of glue that most people should align towards at least initially um to support because you know you benefit from I guess incremental projects coming into and making the Hub like just more kind of more thriving if you will and so there should be some alignment in like atoms as you know that like valuable security currency uh I don't know if you kind of agree with that I think it out of 2.0 yes that's definitely the case and we've worked hard to like make that narrative true I think that the biggest criticism of Cosmos The Hub over the last couple of years has been we built a lot of Open Source software that anyone can come in and use there's no guarantee that they're going to use atoms for anything and the the fact is they have ended up using atoms for a bunch of things they've repeatedly airdropped the atom token distribution they built D5 protocols things like IST that rely on atoms atoms have become the de facto Fiat honoramp and off-ramp throughout the inner chain and there's a bunch of other sort of network effects that Adam has had but none of that is guaranteed at a software level and once we have interchange security and there's projects launching underneath it yes for those projects specifically that's the sort of atom economic zone like we're gonna see a lot of value accrual there at Adam but right now with the 50 chains out there there's no guarantees for atom holders we built a lot of public goods infrastructure to like get to this point bootstrapping a network of blockchains a very very hard problem and like I remember when I started talking with Zachy I was like okay so wait we're gonna launch one blockchain and then we got to build an application framework to build a bunch of blockchains and then we got to build the network thing to get them together we need to make sure there's a critical mass I was like he's like yeah yeah I was like okay all right well we got a lot of work to do better get started talk I have a question you were kind of hinting at this presentation that you're giving around like Adam 2.0 and September it's not just me I just like want to be very clear there have been a lot of course Adam 2.0 there are a lot of cooks in the kitchen um yeah uh I will be like this is this is the this is the opening act of of Cosmo verse which is this big Cosmos conference that's in MIDI in uh two weeks before Defcon can you hint at like any new inflation schedule eip1559 no no we're gonna make eip15519 look like a joke like it's there's a version of enshrined proposer Builder separation in there there's a version there's a new inflation schedule um we're not just going to be exponentially inflating everyone until the you know Sun Burns Out um because we know how we know how to design proof of stake systems that no longer require that um and um we are going to be yeah and like we have we we think we figured out an alternative to like something like parrot chain auctions for like aligning with the new tokens that are appearing in the ecosystem um so that like when people are actually so like we think we can we have an even stronger alignment mechanism design than like the airdrop mechanism which sort of works but it's like kind of this like I I do have my criticisms of the airdrop mechanism which is basically you're like throwing a lot of marketing at your product right when it is most immature um which is like kind of makes no sense um uh and so you know there's a lot of um yeah so you know I I do think that this is I'm I I'm honestly I'm so excited about it but like it's a it's a it's it's a tricky thing to like talk about in such like weird terms and like I'm just like I'm really looking forward to just like we're all gonna we're gonna like talk about it I think we're gonna start out with talking about the inflation schedule and that stuff and then like my section is the talk is really going to be like deep deep in the Weeds on the value of girl mechanisms um I want to talk about uh just well I was gonna ask you what you guys are spending most of your time on but I think you've touched that on various kind of questions um I'm curious like you know I don't want to spend too much time in ethereum but I do want to revisit one topic that you mentioned earlier which is you see coexistence and I think that is refreshing take I think a lot of times most people think about maximalism and you know ethereum killers and whatnot uh I think the cosmos Vibe generally has not been that historically and I don't think it is today but I am curious like what do you see ethereum moving your proof of stake as early as tomorrow with the merge happening and how does that impact Cosmos on the margin um really interested in hearing your thoughts around that and and how you see kind of the state of um of Cosmos interacting with ethereum over the next kind of 12 or a year or two I think that it makes it actually a lot easier to interact with ethereum from a interoperability perspective uh when it's proof of work you've got uh a lot of issues with Building Bridges and this is one of the huge reasons why the bridge issue has been so huge over the last few years proof of stake offers hope of a better environment for that um we briefly talked about that there is a really cool post on eth research about sort of a path to like IBC natively to ethereum um you know we I we've I I've been waiting for this day for the merge day for since 2015. I mean I I I I'm so excited like I mean Zaki and I went and built the gravity Bridge which is a piece of technology to allow trustless bridging between EVMS and well not trustless I mean standard proof of State trust assumption Bridges between um Ethan Cosmos uh so you know and especially as the eat narrative starts to shift towards Heath being a settlement layer for a bunch of Roll-Ups um that is basically the same multi-chain narrative we've been pushing for many many years so you know we're excited for eat to come join us in proof of Stake Land we are excited for more and more chains and more and more protocols to be out there and I think Santi you have asked like what we're spending most of our time on these days what I spend a lot of my time doing is working on re-enabling composability between different Cosmos chains and uh you know asynchronous composability looks a lot different than synchronous composability and there's a lot more developer tooling required for that and that's basically what my company Strange Love spends most of our sounds oxymoronic but can you talk a little bit more about asynchronous composability yeah for sure so you know the asynchronous composability is what the internet is it's HTTP requests if you've ever been a JavaScript developer and you've sent an Ajax request you get a promise back and then once that promise resolves you get the underlying object below it and there's some additional latency there in the programming languages and programming paradigms that you use need to be able to express that when you're in the smart Contracting environment in ethereum you can say I need to know how many tokens are in this Ave pool and in response to that I might take some action and that is you can know that there's an amount of tokens in that pool at a given time and then you can go ahead and take that action when you add latency in queries it accurately models the real world in a lot of ways it takes time to pull this data but what it it doesn't paper over those issues but it does expose those directly to programmers in a way that makes it harder you can still build highly composed defy systems in you know if you've got two chains with extremely low latency the IBC connection between those chains will also be extremely low latency so you could do it at a very low latency way but it's not in a zero latency way yeah and you get fewer guarantees so you have like a asynchronous flashlights oh it's lucky do you want to talk about Cinderella by the way just okay go ahead psyche because I have a iPhone story so I mean like there there are there's like two massive projects like r d projects in the cosmos ecosystem to try and get us flash loans which you know again can show like how Cosmos can be difficult is frankly like the honest answer to this question um but like so um the team at anoma which is sort of a an offshoot of the cosmos ecosystem has this thing called Typhon which is actually redoing tenderment consensus so that the so that you can have a validator set that votes on blocks from multiple chains at the same time so you can actually have you can be like I need to do synchronous composability with this other chain we're going to get the validator sets to vote on those blocks together so that you get this like fused Block it's insanely ambitious um I have this other thing that I propose that I have like a little you know like a little jpeg of the text written up that like is floating around called Cinderella tokens um which is basically a way of like overlapping like sort of we're like basically you can you can like daisy chain a bunch of economic interactions asynchronously over multiple chains and then like atomically settle them all simultaneously um it it it's a wild idea it brings to me and carriage rides and turning in things into pumpkins um but uh uh and I'm not sure which one of them is actually going to be the um like Typhon is also like a really cool uh really really cool primitive um and Delight a third way this might happen is you have a lending protocol that controls assets on many different chains and in response to liquidation demand can move the the collateral that would be behind the flash loans to the individual chains and then the chain developers can use that synchronous environment on that individual chain to do the liquidations there's a bunch of different like Mars protocol is a good example of a of a protocol that's that's looking to do things like that but yeah it's it I think that this particular problem shows the differences in developing in a synchronous environment versus developing an asynchronous environment yeah I remember like talking uh this was a big Topic in in the last epcon we had in Osaka everyone was talking about composibility and they're breaking and like there was someone that I forget who that says exactly what you said Jack which is like the internet like evolved in a similar manner like it's just latency issue and you know we talk a lot about like synchronous and that's cool and great but that's not to say that like this idea of composability breaking is a little bit I think overblown and I think in in ways to increase the like the thread and the there's a critical latency that you can have and tolerate in turn applications and not all of them need to be like like that I think but you know that's really dumb and I'm not a developer another intuition right is that every ethereum transaction comes with this like I'm going to take out what we call in programming a mutex on the entire world I'm going to take out a lock I'm going to freeze the entire world and do a bunch of stuff and then unfreeze the world and that's where you get synchronous composability from but this like frees the world primitive can actually be written into the virtual Machines of chains so you can be like I would like to freeze this the world or this part of the world and then only unfreeze that part of the world when something else happens right we have to build like essentially programming languages to express these Concepts but there's no reason why we can't I mean I think like it fair enough a lot of people hate flash loans because they're just like allow for these exploits to happen it's not the flash ones are bad but I think bizaki what you're saying is maybe you have some sort of guard rails and conditions that could actually be positive to protect at some point like what you could I guess like it's hard to like say what is an adversary like like a malicious flashlight if you will but if certain conditions are met like like if the Oracle price jumps like crazy then well maybe you shouldn't allow that synchronous you know flat like flash loan maybe you should like stop it and so that's not bad in my mind I mean it is it has been cool this is the the one thing that has been cool has been watching Cosmos chains validator I mean like there's this like interesting like liveness threshold too which is like ethereum really has even in the two really prioritizes liveness it's very hard you know the chain doesn't halt um the cosmos Network thinks of liveness over the course of the over the entire network as probably the thing to prioritize and if you know a chain an individual chain halts but this is also kind of expressed in ethereum world where like roll-up chains can hold without the ethereum based chain halting so we all end up at the same thing but like a lot of Cosmos chains have defended themselves against software bugs and stuff like that by halting and like you know fixing the bug without letting attackers walk away with hundreds of millions of dollars what do you I mean maybe transitioning more to like you guys have been around the space for such a long time we can keep talking about Cosmos which I I want this to be like a go-to for people that want to learn about generally want to learn about Cosmos and all the excitement that's um happening under the hood but I'm also really curious to get your perspective on observing the space for so long kind of what are the things that if you weren't focused on what you're doing today what else would you be doing if you had total freedom of choice saying you can't do what you're doing now what else would you be focused on and trying to fix in the space import and or build either the interoperability thing which is what I'm already working on so I guess it's kind of cheating um and I guess if I can't pick interoperability I would probably pick like individual chain scaling like there's really cool stuff going on over at Solana I remember talking to Anatoly and that team early when they were built I know it's like this is really cool when I worked in web 2 stuff I worked at a database that did like a million it starts a second so like all that database optimization stuff is super fun um so I'd probably say like the the database optimization slash consensus optimization piece of it is what I would pivot to if I had to um I continued like I already do all of this saki's like looking at the right he's like well here's my whiteboard let me see there's 10 things here um I mean like I I do work on a lot of different stuff um but um like privacy continues to be like a huge problem that like we need needs to be sorted out like all of the stuff that happens like the things that excite me are basically privacy Mev I'm really excited I I do want to see the I want to see the ethereum roll-up execution lawyers become peers to the cosmos okay that's like that's really a thing I like I like want in my heart like if I if I if I couldn't work on Cosmos I couldn't work on the cosmos system I would probably be like like trying to turn I would be at optimism trying to turn Bedrock into a cosmosity into like the next Cosmos SDK or at fuel or at like any of the ZK companies or like like I like all of those things like feel to me like doing Cosmos again and uh I still and I like I I don't think that any of this Vision will be really correct until like we have those things become peers to the cosmos SDK because it's good for competition for the space and it's good good it's competition for Cosmos and that inevitably is good for the space or like what why is that sucky um because I fundamentally like I don't like even within the cosmos SDK we've tried to build this like very flexible thing we're just constantly having to make trade-offs right like we can't please every possible developer um you know and I don't think that you can so I just I I honestly like I think like I said I think the the purpose of the space is to give like I'm I'm I'm an infrastructure Builder I'm like I think similier is probably the the big the most applicationy thing that I've ever built um in like the last like eight years uh and it's still very infrastructure and like there are team Like We There Are decentralized teams really building the applications on top of familiar which is like tends to be my pattern but I'm so I'm an infrastructure Builder um and like what I want is the infrastructure for people to build like truly amazing applications to exist um so that like the space actually ends up being worth the damn if IPC is actually successful what it does is provides a common communication framework to allow these individual chain Builders to optimize the [ __ ] out of that and for Capital to flow to the most efficient best run chains and like the core goal here is programmable money this like Global Computing substrate that anyone can permissionlessly come and use and like if that's our goal like having as many experiments as possible as many crazy different architectures what fuel is doing is fantastic um and you know all of these different execution layers like that's how we get to mass adoption really I I when I first learned about IBC I was in like San Francisco blockchain week way back and all the Berkeley folks were there and to me that was like one of the more exciting things I've heard and has always been in the back of my mind like I was just waiting and waiting and waiting for it and then the whole kind of drama ensued and it was delayed and you talk about like if it works like for us and listeners like how will like what are the kpis what are the things that you're looking at to measure success of IBC I think that you know we've seen huge amounts of volume travel across the system and I think that was the first kpi that I wanted to see and you know we mentioned Tara sort of obliquely on this podcast but when Tara was connected to IBC we were doing massive volume over those pipes like tens of billions of dollars every month and uh that was really cool the kpis that I care about now are how many non-cosmos ecosystems get hooked up I'm working actively on a polka dot integration we're working on a couple of privacy chain Integrations like we need to really spin that effort up we talked about the E2 IVC integration there's a lot of sort of like excitement and firmament about that right now I expect that to pick up but uh the kpi that I care most about is like non-cosmos chains doing IBC right now and I think that that's how like if we're actually creating HTTP for blockchains which is like why I am in this like we need to support many different Computing architectures right um so yeah that's great how um how easy is it for developers like how easy was it for the DUI DX team to come out over and kind of learn about you Zaki mentioned how far along they were in their Journey when you approached them but I'm curious do you think that's representative um of new developers coming to the space and and want to build on wasm and the cosmos wasm and is that like a fairly is the tooling there is the developer experience there and how does that compare to other ecosystems like Solana polka dot ethereum in terms of ease of onboarding of Developers the Wasa the cosm wasm tooling for building on top of the sort of like Cosmos native VM thing is actually excellent um I've been avoiding rust and Zachy will laugh for a long time because I'm a gopher but I've been doing a lot of rusts for contract stuff lately because we've been working with a bunch of those teams and you can write your contracts generate a front end right off of it based on that have all of your chain bindings ready to go um so that devtooling has gotten a lot better the cosmos SDK Dev tooling is actually also quite good in a lot of places I think a huge problem though is people come into the ecosystem from all these different directions and like ignite which is The Old tinderman Company built the best Cosmos SDK onboarding tooling it's called starport dentist now works for strange love but uh that that tooling is great but there was a whole part of the ecosystem that was like much more in the infrastructure side would Zachy and I work on and we didn't have a whole lot of exposure to that so like when we brought new chains then we'd be like oh yeah here's this like we had this way we've been doing it so the way that sort of devtools proliferate throughout the ecosystem is not nearly as top-down and I think that that's been a huge problem for developer experience and discoverability but there are excellent tools and um we're doing a lot right now in terms of Cosmos SDK Dev to make it easier to build and like that's squarely where cosmoplasm is focused the work that I'm doing right now is to build a Dev environment for IBC and this asynchronous composability stuff and I think that's kind of the furthest behind but we're also way out ahead of other ecosystems Jackie you mentioned um Mev earlier in blockchain's all roads lead to Mev I'm just curious like how how you guys plan to how how you plan to capture Mev like how do you plan to distribute rewards from MVP I would just love to hear like the Mev plan so yeah so I mean the first okay so like again we'll start out with the lore um so Andrew Miller and his co-authors had this uh consensus paper which was the first consensus academic consensus paper ever to cite tendermen which was very special to us um which actually talked about like building a consensus algorithm that like what was essentially Mev mitigation in it uh it was called honey badger back in the day this is actually what helium used helium uses on their blockchain so there's not really any I mean any Mev on their blockchain so it's kind of a little bit beside the point and they were giving up on it because it is a bit of a pain um but the other thing we did over the last year is um so there's this thing it's like again deep in the cosmos Dev environment called ABCI it's one of Jay's original ideas which is separating the consensus out so like the consensus algorithm the application layer are separate you can actually you don't have to use the cosmos SDK to build Cosmos chains and fact anoma and penumbra are two very prominent examples of chains that are not using the cosmos SDK but are using tendermen and IBC so you can pick and choose the parts of the stack and the fact that a Noma and penumbra have done all this work have made it easy for other teams to like also you know use this because before there was only one example of implementing IBC now there's more than one which is cool so in that so the way they interact with tenderness this thing called ABCI um and so we have this thing called ABCI plus plus um which we sketched out which is a which is we've made every step of the tendermint consensus algorithm programmable so not just like we produce a block you give it to the application produce a book you move to the application which is how his currently ABCI works is historically so net next tenurement release has the first pieces of ABC I plus plus in it um tendermint 0.37 and a b c i plus plus is like a playground for building different ways of mitigating Meb uh uh uh mitigating Mev uh or like redirecting it like you can build all kinds of different things so like just with the features of tenurement 0.37 you can build enshrined proposer Builders operation or uh in features that are coming in tenurement 0.38 you can build an encrypted mempool um you can build all like so like what we are really trying to do is in this typical Cosmos way is sort of unleash the app chains to innovate on like all the different possible ways of managing Mev um but also in admin 2.0 we are doing this whole like basic thing that is like basically we want to broadly Across The Interchange security environment do a version of Android PBS to sort of align incentives correct all roads in blockchain lead back to Mev I feel like all roads and Cosmos lead back to your presentation in uh the cosmos presentation like 10 or 11 days so I'm excited about that exactly one more question for you is uh is uh or Jack whoever wants to take this is just like does the best version of cause the cosmos thesis involve some proliferation of IBC on eth and I'm not sure if that's also a good pivot into sommelier and like what you guys are building but whoever wants to take that I would say that like so basically the gravity like we built this thing called the gravity Bridge um which allows us to do IBC like things over uh between Cosmos and so we have similier um there's also a gravity Bridge which does token bridging um the Kanto blockchain which made me more familiar the ethereum audience um is is a big user of that blockchain there's also something called axelr Uh there's also a bridging protocol called Axor but honestly like none of these things are as great as speaking native IBC like if we could speak native IBC to ethereum it would be awesome I would love to get rid of the our our uh um I would I would would love to get rid of the gravity Bridge from the sommelier stack and but like we have most you know but like you know in in the spirit of pragmatism we have built the kind of application with the graph with similier that you could build on top of ethereum in a world where ethereum natively supported IBC um uh uh you we have and like uh which is basically where like you actually have we have we have some of the application logic was on ethereum like the user-facing pieces of ethereum logic of application Logic for interacting with similas defy apps lives on ethereum the uh governance strategy rebalance uh a lot of other layers value accrual layers incentive alignment layers all live on the cosmos chain and like this produces like we think like a really cool segmentation of concerns that allows you to take advantage of this like gas efficient patient alternate environment to do things that are hard to do on ethereum but giving people the benefit and the security of being on ethereum mainnet for like custody of funds because like we don't Bridge tokens on Somalia we just we like like trade execution is what we Bridge yeah I think that you know one way to think about this is the sort of like cross Chain versus interchain thing and like if you look at what Sushi swap did they want to deployed the same contracts on a bunch of different chains and that has the obvious downsides of like fragmenting liquidity fragmenting control of the protocol making things a lot more difficult to manage and if you step back and look at it critically from an app architecture perspective you'd like all of your management and control functions to live in one place and be controlled by a Dao or something and then it would have these kind of store fronts on all of these different chains to allow it to take advantage of liquidity there and that's exactly what we built with some the gravity Bridge manages contracts on these different chains where it allows these users to come up to the storefront and buy Financial products but all of the revenues for those so uh accrue back to the sub validator set and back to the sum token holders and you know this is also the way osmosis works all of the liquidity for the Dex is on one chain and it has these storefronts on all of these other chains and especially you know osmosis is working with the feature working on a feature right now where you'll be able to send tokens in Via IBC they will swap in a pool that you specify and then it will send the tokens back out via IBC on any other channel and then in that case like osmosis is really just this pool of liquidity and people are sending tokens in and then they're going back out to wherever they want to go um and I think that's kind of the the end state for all of these dexes is the interface that they expose is this IBC interface and then tokens are going to be moving between chains and swapping and flight and you know that's what we built the infrastructure for that's a great example of asynchronous composability yeah guys this feels like a good place to start to think about wrapping this there I think there's so much more something I could could talk about with you guys liquid staking and like uh Jack I want to get really want to get your take on like general purpose zones and stuff but I think we should probably leave that for a for a cosmos episode round two I'm thinking maybe after the presentation uh but is there anything else that like glaringly obvious questions that or topics that you guys want to talk about are questions that Santi and I missed or uh you want to save it for for the next step the things that are most misunderstood about Cosmos is like one of the ways in which we are like ethereum is that we are this um much more of like a developer Collective than we are like a company right like Jack and I happen to like share some companies um uh that like we have we both uh we both create it and stuff like that but like there this is part of the whole like fractal of relationships in Cosmos um and you know the people get you know like we onboard people into the ecosystem in all kinds of strange ways we do have we have um join dot Builders which is actually like a formal program now that the foundation runs um uh for for getting into the cosmos um but like just like getting involved in like the debate on Twitter uh you know hitting people up on Twitter um there are all kinds of strange and wonderful characters in The Cosmos ecosystem um you know that and like every validator is kind of running their own little influencer business which is also just like a fun little aspect of Cosmos um so you know it is a little bit of a it is a little bit of an intimidating world you know and when when you know people when when funds everybody people hit me up they're like how do we get on board I'm like there is no it's not like there's one company there's there's like all these companies all these different funds all these different things but it is a very free environment and I think to like kind of loop back like this is this was a thing that made a big difference for dydx which was when they looked at like could we build what we need on arbitrim on optimism on starkware they're like we're talking to a vendor when they talk to Cosmos they're like here's a bunch of Open Source devs how can we help what are we want what can we do together um you know how can you influence our road map we will try to prioritize your needs it's just like a very natural give and take that is the way we build Cosmos and it's very different um and so I think that's always the thing that is like I I want to keep re-emphasizing to different audiences because it's the thing that's like the most unlike all the other non-etherium not ones yeah and I am like I've heard this um for instance yesterday like Starbucks announced a collaboration with polygon and you could argue that they don't have the best tech but they hired this guy from YouTube Ryan Watt and he's been I think very good in convincing Enterprises yeah and and I think common criticisms like here are Enterprises are like have been seared into their mind that like Solana has downtime issues because of all the kind of issues that it's had true although unfair because they're like this has happened to other chains as well but it's just like very interesting it's sort of like the VHS versus betamax kind of conundrum if you will which is and the question really is like can really be successful as this really kind of collective that you talk about or do you wish at some point and maybe this is like the initial kind of idea behind tendermint that kind of disbanded For Better or For Worse but I'm curious if you had to redesign it from and you go back in time would you have had perhaps more structure or like a marketing department or something to go to really just be the front and center of anyone like a particularly Enterprises or like validators or whatever and or do you think that that really kind of doesn't really matter uh in the long term man this is like the existential crisis that I feel like every single day um on uh is is you know like okay I'm gonna be very honest like I don't like if you made me run the biz Dev deal to like bring Starbucks onto a cosmos chain I think I would kill myself I just I don't care like like this is not an exciting use case of even if you got free coffee for life no yes blonde roast anyone yeah like honestly it's so like to me I'm a kind of like you know I'm glad I sort of glad that these polygon people and they're like Army of of South Asians can is like willing to like kind of do this like Enterprise sales stuff it's probably good for the space in the long run um but I do like the weird I do I do I get more excited about weird D5 [ __ ] than I do is a polygon built on yeah 2019 version of like the cosmos yeah they have a fork of a of a pre-cosmo sub launch version of ten percent I was I was waiting for psyche to say that I was like when is he gonna drop it yeah there was uh there was a Office Park in Bangalore that like discovered the SDK Hydro Hyderabad in like 2018 um and they all went on to found a bunch of companies um but fitwit is the team that's been working with the polygon team for a long time and they kind of were it's honestly it's like hilarious that this like one Office Park like somehow like got like Cosmos pilled and like it's just kind of spiraled out from there and now like covers the entire whole continent of with like various like there's so many in like Indian Cosmos teams and stuff like that it's just persistence and Sentinel and uh yeah there's a bunch of them yeah guys this was a great conversation appreciate you guys I'm marking it right now we're going to do a round two after the presentation this is a fantastic conversation and uh yeah I appreciate you guys coming on Empire yeah gentlemen thank you very much if I don't live up to the hype I definitely do you definitely do you don't no no at the presentation like if atom 2.0 is not fire like you can just like bring me on and just like yell at me real question people should be asking it's not is the merge price ten it's is Adam 2.0 priced in it's not it's not none of this is Legal Financial any other advice for that matter and so now that I got that out of the way I always say it um where can people before we go and to condition people to prepare for the next episode where can people keep tabs on you what's happening in the ecosystem what are the best we'll link it to the show notes but like what's like the the top one to uh places where people can follow your work and see what you're up to on a constant basis the Zacky Twitter is a pretty good spot to follow Cosmos as is my Twitter I would say but I'm a business like Cosmos is very much I mean that's another thing it's like we we are very like I think that's like one of the reasons that is is different about Cosmos is I don't know why this is but like Cosmos to like founders of like different and chains and all of them have like pretty good Twitter clout like they're like pretty actively engaged they like and so like you know typically like when you go to a conference like you don't see like just me you see like two three four other Cosmos Founders that are on stage they're like whereas like you know you go to a near a conference and like you just see Ilia from here and you're like where are the other near people like there must be well they clearly exist like they have their own conference at Elizabeth right now but like they don't they're not really like out there like you know mixing it up in the in the in the internet yeah I think what a lot of people would say is because we didn't have any marketing that's why we've all had to filter on Twitter followings it's like give me the marketing budget all right guys this is a good place to wrap appreciate you guys coming on this is awesome and uh see you guys for round two congrats on all the words thank you guys [Applause] [Music]