Ethereum Restaking: Expert Panel on Risks and Alignment

[00:00:03]welcome to bankless where we explore the frontier of Internet money and internet finance and today on Bank list we are going deep into the frontier of restaking we are going so deep in fact that we are bringing in some extra help to guide us down the very thorny and unmapped Landscape of restaking what is restaking if you don't know what re-saking is this episode might not be for you this is not an afternoon hike of a conversation we are not strolling around the park we are going so far into the unknown that we need a guide to make sure that we don't get lost Tim Baco on this episode is tapping in as our technical moderator for this conversation our guide for the journey into restaking so not every Bank list listener will be prepared for this conversation this one is a hard one if you want to be adequately equipped for the conversation that awaits I recommend listening to the bankless episode with sriram about the restaking meta that we are embarking upon that we did that episode was free Ram just a few weeks ago that will get you up to speed and ready to understand some of the nuances and problems that we are going to suss out here on today's episode because today on the show we have one of the largest and most Giga brain panels that we've ever had on Bank list we have dankrad Feist we have Jesse AKA 13 year old VC that is her pseudonym Justin Drake vitalik buterin and of course sriram Canon on himself the founder of eigenlayer and perhaps the creator of reshaking all moderated by Tim Bako bankless Nation I'm going to be with you in the audience on this one this one is well above my pay grade but you are in good hands with Tim so I'm going to sit back and get my learn on and I'm sure that you will as well so let's get right into our conversation with one of the most Brainiac panels that we've ever had on Bank list but first a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible Kraken Pro has easily become the best crypto 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IOS and Android and if you want to be beta tester you can sign up at ambuyer.com app and since you stayed to the very end of this ad read you should know that Amber is airdropping its wallet token to early users for simply just using the wallet so if you want to get started with ambier all the links that you need are in the show notes Bangkok station Welcome to our restaking Deep dive this episode is not meant to be an introduction to reshaking this will be a much more technical conversation as to the current Frontier of thought from the eth core devs and other restaking enthusiasts about how the meta of restaking Might interact interfere with the goals of the ethereum execution later for an explanation of restaking and what restaking is there is a 101 or 201 level content that we did with sriram uh not too long ago so see that previous episode if you need to get downloaded as to the state of eigenlayer what restaking is and and what it does we hopefully want to go very deep in this episode so deep in fact that I am only able to guide us so if are in this conversation so moving forward I am tapping in Tim Bako as our guide into the frontier of the staking meta and the ethereum protocol Tim welcome back to bank listen thank you so much for taking the reins here yeah thanks for having me again before we bring on the largest panel that we've ever had here at bank list I want to pick up a little bit of your brain Tim what are you hoping to accomplish in this episode and what context and frame of mind should listeners have as they enter this conversation right so um we're gonna have people from both eigenlayer and then the research side of ethereum and and kind of the broader community and my goal is like if everyone can understand everyone's perspective a bit better by the end of the call I'll be happy and I think as a byproduct of that we're going to have to dive in through all of the issues around restaking um so folks can expect you know discussion of like the technical issues the trade-offs uh the general road map and um the potential risks around restaking and then hopefully the folks on the panel have a better understanding of each other's perspective by the end of the hour why would you say that this has captured the attention of so many of the ethereum core devs and surrounding ethereum Community like why in simple terms is this a big deal yeah I think it's because it introduces uh changes to the incentive landscape which the protocol is not aware of you know natively so obviously we have all these incentives in the ethereum protocol like how much stake do we issue or sorry how much rewards do we issue to stakers what are the penalties um what do we do with transaction fees and you know those sort of all work pretty well if you think of ethereum as a closed system where you know there's not uh too much interference with it but then when you see something like restaking um you know which fundamentally changes the reward landscape for stakers and um it might end up changing sort of the decisions they make around the risk they're willing to take if they uh if they take risk and uh things go poorly then they might change the decisions they make with regards to their role as a Staker on the ethereum mainnet so it's really this intersection of like um the incentive design and the edges of the protocol and how they interact together I think that's something that people in recent years have become much more attuned to and um yeah that's why it causes so much conversation all right Tim are you ready for me to hand over the ranks to you yeah let's do it all right Tim I'm gonna let you go but first i'm going to introduce you to dankrad the father and father of modern dang sharding uh researcher at the ethereum foundation Dan grad welcome back to bankless thank you for having me we also have Justin Drake father of ultrasound money he's been on the show from a large number of times before Justin also welcome back to bankless thanks for having me too and first time on the show we have Jesse who I think has posed some of the biggest questions about restaking is definitely on the frontier of restaking thought Jesse welcome to bankless for your first time thank you for having me and then of course we have vitalik buterin dress on guy on Twitter and also famous for having the most ignored eips in ethereum vitalik welcome back to bankless hello everyone it's good to be here again and last but definitely not least we have sriram the father of modern restaking himself sriram welcome back to your second time on Bank list thank you so much David excited to be here thanks to all the EF friends for coming here and Jesse Tim I am out of here my man this is all you awesome thank you David um I guess one place to kick this off uh to make sure that we sort of dive into the deep end pretty quickly is if uh the four of you uh thank God Justin Jessie and vitalik maybe just want to take a minute to share like your current brain dump of like where your head is at with regards to restaking uh we can kick it off from there and then I'll make sure to give you some time after to uh respond to the comments that'll come up um but I think yeah quickly uh Jesse I don't know if you want to kick us off um yeah when you think restaking like what are the things that are coming through your mind right now uh yeah that one simple elegant idea that's inevitably coming true um I think it has real yield for users that come from real utility it has real excitement and traction behind it I think there's in the process real value capture as well um however it's also an opportunity that I believe has been slept on because I probably talked to hundreds of you know developers one-on-one and tens of ecosystems and some of our most like smartest people are working on ZK online games Mev but restaking is I think uh some of the biggest upcoming nurse type that there's just not that many experts in um there's many interesting topics to be explored that comes out of this Pandora's Box my friend kaido you know once said that you could probably get a PhD just studying any of the of the rabbit holes into restaking and there's just that not that many experts uh in this space so I would encourage everyone to study and become an expert awesome Vics um Justin I'm gonna go next sure yeah so my perspective is that um restaking is a little bit like AI on the one hand There's an opportunity to really upgrade ethereum kind of make make it the the center of Economic Security and really strengthen its Network effects have more applications more cash flows but on the other hand there's systemic risks there's big big downsides there's a large blast radius and you know what we potentially could be losing is the decentralization of the the staking operators that's what I'm most worried about and that could have Ripple effects around losing incredible neutrality losing monetary premium and things like that now I guess personally I've been digging into restaking very seriously for the last two months and I feel good about it as a researcher because it kind of extends my Runway but on the other hand I might say that thinking about these systemic risks you know deeply has made me a bit more you know gloomy and do me but I'm trying to to remain optimistic in my research thanks uh vitalik you wanna go next yeah I think I have pretty much the same perspective as Justin on this okay uh thank God anything from you um yeah I mean I would just like to continue what Justin was saying I think it's super interesting because um to me like restaking in many has many similarities to uh liquid staking and like I think the risks are in many ways quite similar so it is very interesting in that at the same time um it could actually help decentralization in that it makes uh solo staking uh more competitive and more Capital efficient but at the same time runs the risk of like completely compromising the protocol by re-hypothecating basically all the stake and like um yeah removing our uh security by by using mistake for something else so it's a super interesting topic to think about thanks and yes I guess we've heard it's almost like a barbell of opinions right like it could make Solo's thinking better uh super uh super interesting problem for Builders new source of yield but then it's like AI could destroy centralization and affect the credible neutrality so how do you think about uh restaking like from your Vantage Point now no this is uh I I think we do agree that there are uh complex risks and that's why I think uh it's important to take a constrained approach in building risk taking the constraints being like what is really good for the ecosystem and uh having constraint on that you know building what new innovation can be Unleashed based on you know this concept so that's how we are thinking about it our driving value is permissionless innovation the idea that anybody can come and build new things on top of this massive trust source and uh I think the fundamental thing we are all seeing here is there is a kind of a trade-off between Shad security and you know risk contagion and I think understanding that sharply as well as Building Systems that make sure that uh the there is you know a certain amount of innovation that can be Unleashed while satisfying the constraints of minimizing risks and contagion is how we are thinking about it thanks um yeah I guess Justin to go back to you you said you know the past couple months have made you into a bit of a restaking Doomer um can you can you paint us a picture of like your your mental Evolution and like what your current view of the risks is and and why they could be bad right so things have actually evolved in the last few few days where you know I feel like I've made some some breakthroughs in terms of um you know having Solutions if we really want to kind of fight uh solo staking so I used to believe for from for a long time that um risk taking was uh inevitable but actually maybe there are some like redesigns or proof of stake that make it like proof of work where you can't really do restaking with with slashing but putting this aside and just assuming that we continue on the current path uh where we're at like one of the my main concerns is basically the the erosion of solo staking so actually the opposite of what the bankrupt is is is uh is hoping for um and basically the reason is that right now there's one staking application yes restaking application zero if you if you will which is to participate in the beacon chain and at the execution layer of ethereum but there's going to be many other options going forward and for each one of these taking applications a decision needs to be made by the the Staker either you don't participate in that that restaking application and I think that might actually not be really an option for some resting resting applications and the reason is that there's this economic forcing function going on if you don't want to play the game you're uncompetitive from an economic standpoint the other option might be to become a solo restaker so you you know retain your your your sovereignty but my worry here and I can there's basically a whole laundry list of things that basically jeopardize the possibility for for for for solo restaking so right now when we think of solo staking we think of a low powered node that's for example dap node we think of distributed validators like like oboe and NPC friendliness we think of the minimum stake being 32 if we think of low maintenance we think of client diversity determinism smoothing synchrony all sorts of things that we think about each one of which could be jeopardized even by one single restaking application um and so basically the the what could happen is that this these solo stakers might be forced to the third option which is to to do delegated restaking and delegated restaking is um is all about a trusted trusted operators and one of the the the the problems here is there's a there's a ransom attack so you know we we used to think that you know we can delegate and still hold custody of of the stake but it turns out that when you're delegating stake in the context of restaking you're allowing this operator to to slash you and what this operator can do is basically threaten to slash you unless you pay a ransom which is almost a full amount that they can slash so for example if they can slash you for 32 if that can say I'm going to slash you unless you pay me 31 if and you get one if back and it's in your best interest to just go ahead and do that and so you you've effectively losing the the benefits of the segregation between the staking key and and and and the withdrawal key um yeah I um a brief comment there is it seems like you can have immutable Services whose slashing contracts are immutable and you know as long as we encourage stakers to only operate to only opt-in to restaking where it is immutable service contracts you don't have this risk that suddenly somebody can come and say something because it's not a thing that anybody can say slashing is written into a contract maybe yeah on that point uh sriram can you take a couple minutes to walk us through exactly like what exists today in the restaking architecture like Dragon layer specifically um because I think it's probably helpful like I I suspect most listeners have like heard of like restaking as a general concept but like if you can walk us through the flow of like I'm a validator I set my withdrawals credential to this contract this contract that's X um yeah I think that would help kind of ground the conversation and what actually happens yeah yeah absolutely so uh there are two kinds of restaking we allow one is native restaking which is essentially you go and stake in ethereum and then you have a staking key and a withdrawal credential you set the withdrawal credential to a Smart contract basically to the eigen layer smart contracts and in particular inside the eigen layer smart contract you create your own zone or a part called an eigenpod which you control and you basically you know set your way to all credential to that and now like the eigen layer system thinks of you as having reached date and then now you have the freedom to opt into new services so what's in your service so there's a eigen layer set of smart contracts on ethereum and then there are service contracts anybody who's building new Services writes a service contract and has a service of chain code so imagine you're building a new uh consensus protocol you basically you know have like a like a get node and a prism node type of thing for that you know you ship it to people you know this is off chain code written in arbitrary languages they download and run it off chain on chain you have the service contract which has basically three kinds of conditions one is registration conditions what how to register into the or who's allowed to register into the restaking for that particular service then you have uh payment conditions or if you validate X number of blocks or do X number of signatures you'll be paid X and then the third one is slashing conditions these three are written into the service contracts so you're not really giving power to anybody else for giving power specifically to the service contract to enforce a certain kind of condition and you know in the ideal eventual World both eigen level the core contracts will be immutable and service contracts you know as they ossify and become correct could become immutable and when you're opting in as a risk taker it is pretty much just fully algorithmic code that you're basically opting into so that's the structure of the system so essentially as a Staker now you know you've set your withdrawal credentials why do you set your withdrawal credentials here is essentially you're adding one step in your withdrawal flow on the eigenlayer contracts you anyway setting the withdrawal credential for your eigen pod to your own like wallet right so essentially it's just one more stop in the way of withdrawal and the reason this is important is to impose any kind of slashing or negative penalties at the eigen layer level you promise to do something you promise to validate some other set of systems and then you don't do it then you know these systems can enforce the system of like positive and negative penalties uh Postman centers and negative incentives there I just want to kind of just say one one more thing our eventual view is something like eigenlayer doesn't necessarily remain as a separate layer on top of ethereum just like we had at maybe boost and eventually it was understood what the right interfaces are or it is under getting understood what the right interfaces are and it becomes part of a native PBS type system we absolutely want to figure out how to make you know something like eigen layer a default part of ethereum that would be our ideal end state so as to minimize the accounting uncertainties between ethereum itself and anything else that can be built on top you know our vision like I said is permissionless innovation we want to enable anybody who wants to build new kinds of infrastructure in the space to come and build it as long as that goal is met we have achieved our goal thanks yeah I think this really helps like ground the conversation and uh kind of be a bit more specific going forward and I guess following from that uh Jesse you mentioned earlier like uh restaking is this really new primitive that Builders should get excited about like when you sort of hear this entire description like what are the the the hooks or like the things uh on which you think Builders should be uh spending their attention and and trying to extend and whatnot yeah um so in my spare time I run some hacker houses and just even from The Hacker House applications and some of the residents that you know some projects that they're building um there's a few categories one right one is with security there's this project called juicera that is a hacker that we're hosting they're basically allowing you know restaked balloters detect and perform emergency responses for Protocols of their choice whereby you know performing Advanced validation validation checks on the protocol security um this part can be offloaded from the blockchain performed off-shame via you know commitments insured by their collateral yeah mistaking right another example was a lot of Mev projects right there's another project that is doing decentralized auction Market selling users order flow to Searchers and in the process they want to essentially slash malicious participants stake who perform sandwich attacks and this can be insured with you know eigler another project that we see um this guy builds restaking.wtf and essentially instead of leveraging only if as collateral for recycling you can essentially leverage any assets as collateral right and then he went on to build something else with objective credible commitments for Via ZK where you know validators actions that were previously non-binding via just crypto Economic Security for example maybe like non-inclusion of blocks can now be made binding with ZK uh in a way where ZK would actually extend uh crypto Economic Security um and in a way that scales so I think if I have the Intel correctly maybe Aguilar has like three stages right and there's like one year away from actually launching middleware Marketplace I think a potential um pattern or of behavior that I observe is we may see faster experiments where restaking emerge where there is an allegiance of restaking protocols meaning maybe five uh protocols out there are friends with each other and they want to essentially restake onto each other's Network and share this uh security with amongst themselves I think that's a very interesting approach where you know like Risk is limited only to these set of protocols and they can launch these experiments much faster and then later I was told that this actually is happening on Cosmos with mesh security where you know Sovereign chains and Roll-Ups are across carrying each other but now we could potentially have this behavior on ethereum and other ecosystems as well got it thanks um and I don't know vitalik or Dan cried if either of you want to maybe uh again to make things more precise based on this entire flow of like you know eigenlayer and what people build on top of it like what are the things that can break uh through this you know what are the specific like attack surfaces that we should be really concerned about and uh where we should maybe try and like limit degrees of freedom yeah so I think I have uh basically two types of concerns uh so one concern is the kind of type of concern that I mentioned in my post about a month ago right like basically where restaking in the sense of just like collateralizing um or reusing your collateral for other applications kind of slides into restaking in the sense of like finding ways to sort of sneak other protocols into being enshrined as part of ethereum in some way and I think it's good to see that there is a desire from um people across the Spectrum here to try not to do that and to try to limit ways of getting into that and then the second type of concern I think I mean I think it's important to stress that this is like not uniquely ideal Air's fault this is a discussion that stretch has Way Beyond diagonally eigen layer it also you know gets into Lido it also gets into like just the limits of the protocol itself which is uh like basically um you know the erosion of solo staking and how do we make sure that soul is taking continues to be viable and uh competitive going forward and that's a a place where I think it's very possible to imagine ways in which uh and all of these protocols can be designed in ways that are solar Staker friendly um I think the biggest challenges tends to come in voices where like you're not just relying on States collateral as uh like what economists would call a hostage you're relying on it as a deposit right so like a hostage is um you know if you do something bad it burns the deposit is uh if you do something bad then it compensates to people who get hurt and like one example of uh the deposit would be if you look at something like Rye right like something like AKs CTP back to stablecoin like for people holding the stablecoin to actually be safe you need to actually have a deposit right it will be nice for that deposit to be staked if so that the interest rate from the or the return rate from holding the right doesn't have to like compete with the you know with the returns from staking and instead you can stack the two on top of each other right but you would actually need this a reliable guarantee that you know if there is a margin call like you actually get all of the eith out instead of like potentially getting some random amounts from 0 to 32 of the youth out and like most of the time it's 30 but some of the time it could be much less and you know it gets weird right and so that's like one of those kind of challenge points where I think there's a lot more room for inter thinking around protocol design right but there's uh but like that's yeah like like that's one particular application of uh restaking that's uh a little bit more more challenging and like the challenge is basically that it also creates uh centralization risks because again if trustworthy AKs takers would be valued more by the system than untrustworthy stakers because trustworthy stickers would would be much less likely to actually get slashed and upgrades verification systems reputation systems wheat decentralization and all of those things these um I think it's and then it's also important to remember that there's like a side to the whole and you know Solo versus centralized taking thing this have ultimately the responsibility of the staking system itself right like one simple example is like probably the biggest reason why I personally am not like just staking all of my youth that I'm instead likes taking a fairly small portion is uh because if you stake your eth it has to be uh like the keys that access it have to be public on some system that's online and like for safety it has to be a multi-sig and multi-six for staking are still fairly fairly difficult to set up um and you know it just it gets complicated in a bunch of ways and like that's the sort of thing that probably could be improved through infrastructure right like there's this uh entire other conversation of like if he wants to make solos taking easier then there's just like a lot of infrastructure work that needs to be done that's uh independent of you know what all of these staking protocols do but yeah other but but at the same time there's definitely a lot of these uh problems where kind of better integration with uh restaking and you know better integration with or alternative to delegation all these things can actually help a lot thanks um maybe another uh framing for this question as well is um you mentioned I guess that like that uh this is not just an eigenlayer problem you know it's like a broader problem and and we see similar parts of it in lsc's um but I'd be curious to maybe dig into this more like Are there specific concerns about eigenlayers approach um and SRI Ram don't worry we'll give you some time after to respond on this but like um honor things you know with eigenlayer specifically that can uh or that have you know shifted us towards a slightly worse equilibrium rather than be aside from just you know doing restaking um and yeah let's let's start here and I'm sure some follow-ons from that sorry can you have a look yeah so so basically is there something about eigenlayer's approach or design or you know uh like way it's gone to Market that um Beyond just the raw restaking uh risks that like you mentioned um has has like made things worse um ways that it's made things worse aside from just uh yeah aside from being risk taking and um so like specific decisions that the team has made or yeah or approaches because like you know you mentioned like or and three remember you touched on this as well you know you've obviously thought about like how people are gonna be able to restake you know which are like the first applications um how you think about your roadmap um so are there parts of that that you know could be better or could have been different um it's fine if there's not don't have to like find something yeah I I can't think of any amazing answers I don't know if anyone I mean I guess one thing that could be said is the the acceleration is the argument right like three run it just is is here um and it is accelerating the discussion and I think one thing which would be you know very nice is if there also was an accelerationist effort for alignment so I'm thinking maybe like a an in-house team um that that is just dedicated to to alignment um and I think there's some catching up that we're doing within the efferent foundation in terms of building you know such a team and you know plug if you want to do restaking alignment research uh do DM me yes we also want to organize an event at devconnect uh in Istanbul so that would be one uh one place where we can discuss both alignment and applications in um we're very much open to this suggestion of actually building a not only a team but also a culture of alignment um I want to just address like one or two uh points that were brought up by vitalik uh on one is on um solo sticking I think one of the things you know uh we are doing I so before that I want to phrase the scope of what we are doing at eigen layer related to General risk taking I think you could restake and like reuse collateral in financial or other applications what vitalik called deposit and you could restake and use only that you know your collateral for promising that you are uh doing validation correctly to the so-called hostage I think that vitalik referred to um eigenlayer's goal is to be a Marketplace of decentralized trust not a financial hypothecation platform for taking uh collateral state in ethereum and then using it in other ways I think this is much more slippery slope and one has to go very tread very carefully and one may ask like how how do you sriram or somebody else decide like what what set of use cases kind of get built on on the system uh again that is the starting point and there is kind of equilibrium for these systems uh the starting point that we are taking is uh you know because applic you know new applications when they are launched on eigenlayer their contracts may have like bugs and other issues one of the things we're building is uh uh that these be subject to a social layer inside of eigen layer we call this a slashing veto the only role of the veto is to slash the only role of the committee is to veto slashing positions and initially of course this would be like uh uh a single committee but eventually this could be an inter-subjective thing like relays right relays in the ethereum ecosystem you know anybody can be a relay they just are a doubly trusted party if uh a proposer agrees to a relay and a builder agrees to relay they have like a potential Market making opportunity in the same way they can emerge a Marketplace of slashing vetoes where like somebody can say hey we are a committee we want to propose you know participate in mediating you know uh the slashing veto decisions and as long as the Staker and the servers are comfortable you can actually make the market there but the the point is whoever is doing this kind of a slashing veto also needs to onboard Services because they have to veto the slashing and so the way we restrict the scope of applications is first by shelling point the idea that we are actually only building a decent less trust Marketplace or a validation Marketplace not a financial uh primitive and number two you know things like the slashing veto committee have the ability to onboard services and eventually the way we think about it is when you're not very trusted it's the same uh like um uh training wheels argument for rules right so when you're building a roll up initially you need to add training wheels but eventually you move off and say that I don't need training wheels same thing Services built on eigen layer will eventually go initially go through a slashing window eventually as they ossify they will just say I don't need a slashing wait don't stickers can trust me because I've been on this and running it for one year two years so they go to become completely non-subjective so that is the roadmap that we envision and it is going to be very difficult to go beyond a certain credibility for services doing all kinds of random things and you know Ransom attacks and other things to gain enough trust for stakers to put their own money at risk you know there is no incentive misalignment at the Staker level Staker doesn't want to lose their money to a ransom attack right like and they're not going to stay two Services which don't have not established enough credible trust or are fully immutable and programmable that they can actually verify so anyways that's that's a couple of points one final point on decentralization is uh I think Tankard mentioned this a little bit which is how potentially eigenlayer could help decentralization you know if if you remove eigen layer from the equation like for liquid staking the only benefit was in defy applications and the only yield was coming from that and I think this has very strong like centralization tenancies whereas what eigilate is doing is try to establish a decentralization or decentralized trust marketplace where there may be a premium to be paid for decentralization itself because if people valued decentralized nodes for doing validation they could say I only want to recruit the non-centralized nodes for my service and this can lead to additional yield for like homesteakers who might want to run lightweight Services across the Spectrum so that's a few uh points on how we are thinking about both alignment and decentralization you know Justin you were saying you're talking about like in-house alignment teams I I feel like that maybe the broader version of that is like what should the ethereum community be doing now as a whole um to ensure like restaking is aligned and there's different angles this can take right like but you know it could be building different like competing lsts Pro or uh restaking protocols like uh we started to see on the LST front um there's the whole area of like around protocol changes and then there's also like middleware like uh you know things like we've seen like Mev boost um so like yeah I I guess pretty much from everyone here if you have any ideas or suggestions to the broader ethereum community of like which paths should we be pursuing um in parallel to like maybe eigenlayer accelerated accelerating the restaking future um so that uh we don't get caught by surprise I mean I'm happy to take this yeah I mean for me personally there's there's kind of three prongs the first one is you know to just build the team and build the culture around it and I think the the culture will come from an awareness of the risks and I think maybe that we could spend a whole podcast on you know what are the the restaking risks and really flesh those out so that there is a public consciousness um and then you know a second big prong of my research is around you know Insurance the the nuclear option like if things go really really bad can we redesign if you're in proof of stake in minimal ways in such such that you know we can neuter restaking and I'm happy to say that the answer is probably yes at least with trustless restaking uh which is punitive which has slashing so that that is a something that makes me sleep better at night that we have this card in the back pocket can you explain to me how that would work just high level for our listeners yeah right so there's two ways to unlock uh trustless restaking one is through withdrawal uh contracts which is what eigenlayer is doing and then the other way is to basically bootstrap yourself on top of the existing slashing conditions um either using using Hardware but maybe even trustlessly using very fancy cryptography called witness encryption now on the the withdrawal contract side of things what we can do is we can actually make the withdrawal contract updatable um and the the reason why we didn't make it updatable by the this the staking key was that if your staking key gets compromised then the the most that you can lose is just the the one if because you get slashed and so the ransom attack is very very limited and so actually you know you still hold custody of your fans but what will happen with restaking is that you're going to be Max exposed to slashing like if you mess up you're potentially going to lose the 32b for some very large large portion and so the the separation between the staking key and the withdrawal key is not that valuable and so making it updatable um you know could be a way to basically neuter uh restaking and by the way it also solves another problem which which is uh you know liquid staking token so in that sense it is really a nuclear option um and you know there would have to be a whole migration path which might take several years but you know if we do see that restaking it doesn't lead to to good equilibriums then then we at least have that option and then the second thing that we can do is basically remove the ability to bootstrap on the session conditions by removing the slashing conditions um and the basically the I discovered a you know a couple weeks ago this amazing cryptographic primitive called One-Shot signatures basically One-Shot signatures allow you to sign a message once and then the staking key magically destroys itself and you can think okay how is that possible um and the the the key right you said the sign-in key okay yeah okay yeah yeah this Iron Key this is the staking key the secret key um destroys itself and the way that it's it's done is basically by combining existing cryptography with quantum mechanics so in quantum mechanics you could have your secret key be a superposition of states and then there's a theorem in in kind of content mechanics called the no cloning theorem whereby if you have an unknown superposition of things you can't clone this this the this Quantum object and then the way that you sign the message is by measuring the the the the the the secret key by collapsing it and thereby destroying it so you can only sign one single message now everything else is is just as normal the signature itself is classical um and and so really it's a potential future upgrades for for removing the the the the slashing conditions now one of the things I guess worth mentioning is that you get eighty percent of the new terrain from the withdrawal credentials and the reason is that um the the slashing conditions um are kind of limited right if only a few validators get slashed around the same amount of time they only lose a very small amount of if they only really start kicking in when there's this Mass lashing uh going on and so you get 80 of the the benefits just by removing the withdrawal contracts or making it updatable which is very easy to do and then the last 20 percent you know it may be a couple decades we can remove with very very fancy cryptography metamask has something new introducing metamask portfolio metamask portfolio is the best way to view your crypto portfolio from a holistic level see everything across all the trains all at once in your portfolio metamask will report the aggregate value of all the assets in your metamask wallets and even the other wallets you import too but metabask portfolio isn't just a 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mobile wall you can store and display your beautiful nfts and you can also explore web3 with the in-app search features Market leaderboards and price charts or use wallet connect to connect to any web3 application so you can now go directly to D5 with uniswap mobile wall safe simple custody from the most trusted team in default download the uniswap wallet today on iOS there is a link in the show notes arbitrim1 is pioneering the world of secure ethereum scalability and is continuing to accelerate the web 3 landscape hundreds of projects have already deployed on Arbitrage one producing flourishing defy and nft ecosystems with a recent addition of arbitrum Nova gaming and social dapps like Reddit are also now calling arbitrim home both arbitrim1 and Nova leverage the security and decentralization of ethereum and provide a builder experience that's intuitive familiar and fully evm compatible on arbitrum both Builders and users will experience faster transaction speeds with significantly lower gas fees with the arboretum's recent migration to orbital Nitro it's also now 10 times faster than before visit arboretum.io where you can join the community dive into the developer docs Bridge your assets and start building your first app with arbitrum experience web 3 development the way it was meant to be secure fast cheap and friction free so I guess I have a more vanilla idea um building on top of italics said about reputation systems I think I think this is much more maybe easily built some sort of repetition dashboard where it's either vote in-house by research protocols or by Third parties where all three parties in the marketplace the stakers the violators and the middlewares that require staking would essentially get uh reputation points for the stakers you could you know bench on you know like the amount of time they've staked I think eigler's already doing something like this with respect points uh you could have a retroactive calculation based on their own chain or even off-chain behaviors of that staker's address on the spell iters and you could you know display things like amount of uptime they've been running and you know some some sort of effective Effectiveness rating like the rated.network I think there's a website that display this metric where the maybe the bad valuers not only get slashed but also get decrease in the reputation points where you know they would maybe lose Priority Access to other middlewares and then the good values would then be rewarded with repetition points incentivizing them to behave more honestly a reliability for the longer term and last but not least for the noodlewares that are actually requiring restaking um I think it's very very important to displays the sort of the security measures that this protocol has taken right whether it's through are they done with auditing are they do they have monitoring like risk monitoring is there circuit breakers in place et cetera et cetera um what are you know their slashing criteria their slashable quota of the amount of ethi can actually slash uh what is actually the hardware et cetera like things that you you very like I think um directly display for the users whether they are individual stakers or the protocols to participate in such Network um where I think something like this would incentivize people to play repeated games with each other as opposed to one-off malicious games you have any thoughts on the yeah I mean in terms of alignment I think one of the things that I think about a lot is how do we make the ethereum protocol layer one by itself have a self-sustained system of kind of karma you know the action and consequence at the layer 1 are fully like taken care of so we don't really have to worry about these like extraneous fixes like what are the things that we care about for ethereum as a layer one we want to make sure the system's safe and the system slide like these are the two fundamental things and I think rethinking a little bit deeper what can we do to actually make sure that it doesn't matter who builds what on top of it there is no externality because the system has internally kind of consistent um you know a punishment and I think I'll just give two quick examples of like things that we've been thinking about one is on safety uh you know one of the things is how much security budget is sufficient for ethereum itself on the layer one right and right now it equilibrates due to the rewards curve and like what the market you know is happy with the Returns on it doesn't equilibrate to how much Securities actually needed on on on ethereum because that's unmeasurable right now and is it possible to actually build mechanisms where this information is solicited in some kind of like an incentive compatible way so that's one one example and this may be things like you know a portion of the slash fronts from the ethereum L1 is uh allocated as insurance to harmed parties so that harmed parties are potentially harmed parties have a way to actually go and buy this insurance so that you know what we can start doing there is establishing markets which can try to understand the security needs kind of more natively that's number one on the safety side on the liveness side again one of the most important things is you know how to make sure that we have like you know a system that doesn't have censorship and I think this is something you know part of the main reason we worry about decentralization is that decentralization leads to censorship resistance and what are the kind of like checks and balances that we can place on censorship itself I think again here by you know thinking a little bit more about what what we can do here for example is censorship how do you make censorship easily observable by the vast array of wallets which could then become light nodes which are monitoring the system uh you know can can we make censorship observable there I think we have a bunch of new ideas coming up there uh so that when you want to slash some block proposals for not only not including the transaction but also so not a testing on other people's blocks which include the transaction I think this is uh if you can slash people and very quickly detect and come to social consensus that actually censorship is happening not only in proposal but also in a testing the faster we can come to our social consensus the easier it is to impose like uasf and other things to actually slash censorship so by making the ethereum L1 much more powerful and self-contained we simply don't have to worry about what anybody else is doing anywhere thus actually unleashing way more you know activity so that's at least my like hopes and dreams for where this would go and I'm curious to hear from the folks on the EF research side like what how do you think about the protocol complexity associated with something like that um which is obviously the main thing we we have to consider in those changes I feel like I've definitely like slowly becoming more okay with enshrining more things than I was like probably like five years ago like I remember the dream in the early versions of account abstraction is basically that the base protocol would just uh Define a call and the transaction would just be a call and everything else would be defined at higher layers and account abstraction for example is like really starting to move away from that and the reasons why it's moving away from that is because we realized that like we want to guarantee fairness of the mempool guarantee censorship resistance of user transactions and all of these other goals and being able to guarantee those goals does require having more legibility into the uh kind of the structure that's getting used to agree on what transactions are getting included right and so for that reason more types of enshrining make sense and then you know there was other kinds of enshrining that you know adjusted and various people have talked about like uh even in shrining you know ZK evm verification at some point like that's the way to reduce costs for or reduce code risks for Roll-Ups for example um or potentially other aspects of the protocol so if adding more like more features to the base staking protocol reduces the risk that like weird stuff happens on L2 then I or I think that like that is something that we should be open to Justin thank God any thoughts I guess one of the difficulties is that you need to have adoption of this enshrined infrastructure and I guess with with restaking if you don't activate the the nuclear option then there's always sneaky ways to to avoid this this and trying infrastructure but what I am hopeful will happen is that um we will see a a a what I call a generalized PBS in infrastructure come come to play so PBS proposal to build a separation is this really amazing thing because it basically allows solo stickers to delegate most of the work to to builders and so the builders are extremely sophisticated they could be centralized whatever it is but 99 of the sovereignty remains with the valid data Knight ten percent of the rewards also remain with the metadata and then 99 of the work that needs to be done is dedicated away trustlessly and this is the key word is like trustless dedication and I think what what we can can do is basically come up with this framework where most restaking applications would you know play well in this generalized PBS so we'd have generalized Builders and generalized blocks and would have generalized relays and generalized flashing conditions and generalize inclusion lists and all of that can be generalized um and that is kind of the the happy path where we really delicately thread the needle and and don't fall into this dystopia uh where we have the The Trusted delegation at Mass scale uh but there's a lot that needs to happen for that one is a lot of engineering work you know even PBS and then trying PBS that's just focus for one restaking application which is you know the execution layer that's already a humongous amount of work uh and so doing it for you know a whole class of researching applications will be very difficult I think another thing that needs to happen is basically social norms and social education we need to understand as a community as developers as users that that you know it's it it is beneficial to fit within this framework and so if you have kind of stray restaking applications that don't fit within this framework then then you know maybe they should suffer competitively relative to others that do and then I think another you know really important component um and here is kind of more of a wait and see is what are the economic forces at Play so really what we want is the the staking yield for institutions to be no greater than just taking yield for for sole validators so what what is you know likely going to happen unfortunately is that there's going to be we're going to lose this property of fairness so if you put one unit of stake some amount of Eve different people different Stakes are gonna get different returns now the reason is that there's going to be some restaking applications that only going to cater for institutions so for example um if if there's a resync application that can only support a thousand nodes well we have a hundred you know hundreds of thousands of valid datas and so in order to become a node you need to come in as as multiple validators as a lump and so if you only have 33 if then you're not even eligible to to this restaking application but the the good news is that there might be some risk taking applications that are kind of anti-institutional um some of them maybe because you know they really want to tap into this decentralization and but some of them one of the things I've been thinking about this is Ponzi games right if you have some sort of Ponzi game some sort of dog token or whatever it is that then the institutions you know the buttoned up coinbases and and blackrocks or whatever it is they want they're not going to touch it um and so you know weirdly enough I've become bullish on Ponzi games in the context of restaking wow uh Day cards just give off youth well I mean yeah um not don't want to encourage the last part that's my least favorite part of crypto but uh generally like I think um my comment on like trying to enshrine and putting something into um good rails I think it's possible actually and we should be doing more of it I think this is like a great uh point to start thinking about it like how can we um how can we kind of take more active control of how people use the protocol and I think if you give something that gives most of the economic rewards um then people will accept it and will not build around it and um and then you can actually like uh yeah make some opinionated decisions inside the protocol and try to avoid the worst one other thing I would um add is that if we want to add more kind of cherries on top to encourage solo staking then there's always you know off-protocol things that we can do to encourage it like even things like you know if sub off-chain mechanism detects it verifies that you're a solo sticker you get a free Defcon ticket or something similar and uh yeah I I think you know the the strongest such mechanism would be that basically you know Justin mentioned in in a bankless podcast earlier that hey you know if you're a solo sticker and you restake you might actually get like an ad drop which is kind of just proportionate to not just like the amount of heat but also to to individual units you know using some kind of a quadratic mechanism there for example um so I think there are so the subjectivity layer so the way we think about like uh restaking is this you know the platform itself would need to be neutral but there is a lot of intersubjectivity like Services building on top can express their own subjective views on what uh what the important dimensions are and I think that is that is a new I think uh new powerful thing where the society and the uh Community can guide where that energy goes and I think you know uh you know the EF uh researchers and uh team has a kind of a big role to play there yeah I had the question so around like the enshrining and potential you know new terrains of these protocols I feel like this is a topic that comes up over and over where you know we see this with uh obviously liquid sticking tokens um there's a whole question around like you know should roll ups be enshrined and to what extent and what components and now like with restaking um and there's a there's there's almost like a paradox around credible neutrality there where like if you uh if you make these protocol changes to like keep things more credibly neutral but then end up in a way like censoring what is like one of the largest users of the protocol because we fear that it becomes a monopoly um you know that's also like a form of like non-neutrality of the ethereum based air right like if if we do you know a protocol change at like neuter's eigenlayer or neuter's Lido or neuters you know arbitrum um because there's like this fear that like it it's growing too big um then effectively it's like a weird form of censorship um in that so like I'm curious yeah how do you think about doing these changes or potentially doing them in a way that's maybe less like adversarial or uh potentially um risky to like not only in the in the risk taking context but generally people who want to build something that's going to end up being used by like most ethereum users um yeah so my opinion would be this that we should establish a social Norm here that building on ether on ethereum like building smart contracts protocols on top um that should be we should almost never touch that I mean would be in a very extreme very rare situation um but messing with the staking layer is a different matter like for example if some if like lots of validators start censoring we do want the ability to like intervene and so I think um I think it would be a good signal to send yes like we might be opinionated on what you do on a staking layer and that might include like messing with your protocol and destroying it that's it I mean for Lido specifically one of the amazing consequences of the the One-Shot signatures that I mentioned is that you can do trustless delegation so you can imagine a system like Lido where you don't have to trust the 29 operators uh in any way um and that would basically give us all the advantages of Lido which is the the liquid staking and and really none of the downsides um for restaking specifically I don't have the Silver Bullet uh right now so it's kind of more of a you know hopefully best and embrace things and things go well and kind of if things don't go well then then new to it yeah I mean I think I mean the other thing like that is that it's always you know important step be careful about neutering things and to um you know quality create uh kind of kind of not similarly clear Norms about like what is it an okay situation and uh what starts looking like a very not okay situation that that requires some kind of action and you know hopefully the uh the very not okay situation is something that ends up happening zero times yeah and I'd say I think one spot where we're doing a decent job at this is around like Mev boost this does feel like something where um although far from like perfect having had like the you know Mev teams actively contribute to it having had like obviously ultrasound relay and like infrastructure that's been built around it it seems like this yeah I wouldn't call it like an equilibrium quite yet but it's in fact we've at least created like a semi-stable middleware that we can have both like private companies and like protocol contributors work on um and test some of the incentives at play obviously see some of the issues uh with the sort of shortcuts that uh we're taking to make this possible a bit outside of the protocol but um yeah Justin I don't know like do you have thoughts from just more the like collaboration and Engineering Process of like having done this around the Mev boost and relays sort of outside the protocol to start as we we go towards PBS right so I guess one thing that I believe is that there's there's never a rush right we always have a lot of time to discuss these these big changes and part of the reason is that proof of stake has a an inbuilt healing mechanism so if the words were to to happen Mass censorship or reversion of finality or whatever it is we have ways to you know identify the cancer and excise it from the system um using either automatic systems or or using the the social layer um and because we have time that means that we we can experiment with solutions that are off chain as you said and those might be good enough um now one of the I think things we should be striving for is doing all sorts of upgrades that you know have very little downsides and so we should be using this time to think of end games that are you know maximally simple maximally optimal so that we once we do the change then we don't have to do it again and I think another thing that's important is is around timing so a lot of the future upgrades of ethereum are actually security upgrades but they're hidden in the back pocket and if and when they start becoming problematic so for example secret single leader election that's something we've been working on for years and we haven't really prioritized it because we haven't seen you know validators being DDOS despite the fact that uh you know their their identity and their IP address is is public but if and when this was to happen this is something we can prioritize I guess another thing in terms of timing is around um you know making use of sunk cost and so more specifically I think there's going to be this massive upgrade to affirm that's going to come maybe in 10 years time 15 years time 20 years time I don't know around uh you know making if you're in post Quantum and there we really need to rip the Band-Aid and and remove a lot of the cryptographic guts of ethereum and make them you know post Quantum and this is kind of a great opportunity to put into place all the upgrades that we've wanted to put in place um because we're going to be changing everything anyway so it might as well make a film close to as close as perfect as we can yeah I have a quick thought to add to Justin on you know his worry about uh he's taking uh in the posts one shot Quantum one shot signature world I think you know there's no use for restaking mistaking was there to write underwrite trust in distributed validation if you could have like distributed validation already certified by one shot signatures it don't need at least my own goals would be satisfied so uh I think because you know it's taking was there to underwrite trust in you know certain kinds of correctness and if it's already kind of comes out of that Quantum principle so other people not only ethereum that will be beneficiary of it other systems they want to build on top of or also beneficiaries of the same thing yeah that's a great point that you know these One-Shot signatures remove equivocation and so a huge subset of restaking applications no longer really become meaningful because you can just do them with pure cryptography but there's these two other things that still remain one is uh liveness and the other one is non-determinism and subjectivity um if you're building oracles for example you you talk you can't use you know pure determinism and pure cryptography oh sorry were you gonna say something sorry no just uh one more thing on like uh things like uh lettings taking key change withdrawal Keys is I think there are complex second order effects that may emerge with these kinds of things which may lead us to exactly the opposite of the goals for example it may just end up that if that's the case I can only delegate to somebody who's really trusted and everybody delegates to the same party and it's just going to be like so I you know we all know here that we don't know the second order effects of any of these systems including risk taking and we we just need to kind of bones off each of those ideas into find what the test taking plan for the space and 3mness thanks yeah I think this is a good place to start wrapping up uh maybe as a like closing question I'd love to hear from each of you in like a minute or so like any thoughts or changing perspectives you've had from this conversation or things that you'd like the community to take away um Jesse you want to kick us off sure thing yeah I am pretty excited because I think previously a lot of the protocols are secured by multisigs uh and you know whether it's crypto Economic Security or a security guarantee guaranteed by cryptography I think it's huge setup Step Up um to like much better security and I would argue that like Justin said right like crypto Economic Security Plus cryptography are kind of the most comprehensive solution for both deterministic versus non-deterministic um results that you kind of want to get and I you know like I have I'm publishing some thoughts on like you know a lot of questions regarding risk taking but overall I think I'm pretty bullish I think eigenler realizes the full value of ethereum right like the large trust layer is much more explicit than you know sort of like discussing staking providing security to the network and eigenler makes that relationship uh to security much more explicitly so awesome uh digrad um yeah I mean I think the takeaway for me is um we need to like uh at the same time be careful but also like a pro B Nimble and um and see how we how we need to develop both social norms and the protocol um in the face of this and it's a similar situation that we faced a few years ago with Mev and uh something U.S added to our table and we need to handle it thanks um italic um yeah I mean if I say same thoughts as everyone else like I think there's a a lot of value in using staked if in other protocols and I mean like I personally um you know continue to want to see here stable coins work uh like it's a decentralized stable coins have fun you know Camp had a different so if like that use case can somehow be figured out in particular then like that would make me very happy though I'm definitely yeah you know bullish on other kinds of restaking as well but you know at the same time making sure that staking decentralization it gets uh preserved as well as the neutrality of the protocol it's uh is super important so you know glad to see that we're all facing the challenge thanks uh Justin yeah I would I would Echo with what vitalik said especially on the the stable coins one of the ways where restaking can help is to build just much better oracles so right now the articles that we have uh are basically multi-six so for example chain link I believe the if USD Oracle is a 21 out of 31 multisig um can we build an oracle which you know reuses to a large extent Economic Security of of of a firm layer one um and I guess another thought that I have is around you know maybe the the evolving role of of researchers you know we've been doing crypto economics for for a long time but maybe to an extent we we're gonna move to Metro economics um and but what I mean by that is that there's there's some things that are you know really rooted in in and at the social layer with with humans you know there's this whole education thing but there's there's also the social norms for example of of not encroaching on on the social governance um you know they're the whole post around around uh that vitalik wrote and then another kind of question that I've been wondering is what is the value of of decentralization because there is one possible scenario which is that we lose decentralization with restaking but it doesn't it doesn't actually matter and maybe decentralization is is only a bootstrapping mechanism to gain credible neutrality up until the point where we basically have technology we have systems that um don't rely so much on on decentralization of the operator specifically we still need decentralization of of the nodes but if the Opera if the operators are basically handcuffed you know they can't do censorship because we have inclusion lists um and they can't do any of the other bad stuff um then uh then then maybe we we only need decentralization for for the memes because it kind of looks good the ones we've won you know once ethereum is a 100 trillion dollar settlement layer for the incentive value then then then maybe the value of decentralization goes down a little bit thanks uh sriram want to close this off yeah no I think we're I'm really glad that we are having these uh discussions in understanding what the constraints and the Contours around systems that that can be kind of built around this are um I think there are clearly I I think going back to my own theme which is open Innovation I the there is a tension between open Innovation and and security or safety and uh one of the things that excites me is finding new things that actually has um satisfies both of these things you know it's very safe but it's also like uh expands the scope of innovation one of the things that we have like this is the idea that anybody can build new consensus protocols like arbitrary consensus protocols uh but the slashing condition is very simple it's just you know don't double sign and you know on the Node we have like a separate Zone we call an anti-slasher where you check that you'd never assign two signatures and now you can like you know as a node operator you don't need to kind of trust any of these special like node software that you are adding on because the anti-slasher is the only thing that you need to trust and it's simple and it is universal across a whole class of applications now anybody can write new like DFT protocols you know consensus protocols and you can just like download and run them without even having any program Integrity on them because you've already checked the slashing contract which is just a double signing contract and you have an anti-slasher maybe this anti-slasher runs inside a trusted execution enrollment so even if somebody delegates to you they have a kind of a sense of assurance that they are Never Getting slashed so finding examples like this is what gives me kind of hope that the the set of constraints and the set-offs like things that we want to do are not completely intentioned that there's no use case no interesting thing that can be done is actually a large class of useful and interesting things and my own interest in actually starting eigenlayer was because we had new accounts that's what I've got this as long as you know we can start enabling other people to start coming up with these new things and and building it I think that's already like super interesting amazing well thank you all for coming on uh David do you want to wrap us up yeah guys that was a fantastic conversation I really enjoyed sitting in on the background for that one and Tim uh thank you for guiding us down this Rabbit Hole so well I think this answered a decent number of questions but also opened up the doors for further questions further exploration uh there's a lot of surface area here for conversation so hopefully the listeners are routed to these spots that interest them the best and that they can contribute to the most and Tim I also want to give you a chance what are your Reflections on this episode that was what what are your what are your thoughts floating around um I don't have much time to like think through as I'm doing this but I have about five six pages of notes from the conversation here so you know I'll get back to you after the show um but I think we should definitely do one of these again in you know 12 or 18 months once uh we've seen uh this go into production at scale and some more uh yeah just more evolution in the space well like we like to say on on Bankers we like to front run the opportunity and so hopefully this conversation uh gives us a little preview of what could be in the future when it comes to restaking Tim once again thank you for for guiding this conversation and Jesse Justin vitalik sriram thank God thank you for for all being here uh the largest panel that we've ever had that went pretty damn well I'd say yep thank you too thank you thank you this nation you know the deal crypto is risky staking is risky restaking is even more risky you can lose what you put in but we are headed west this is the frontier it's not for everyone but we are glad you are with us on the bankless journey thanks a lot