Racism and Social Class in Sports: An Academic Analysis

[00:00:00]this podcast is brought to you by Villanova University on iTunes you please visit us on iTunes villanova edu hello everybody welcome to this freedom school talk on racism and sports I'm Rick ex time from the sociology department formerly from the piece of Justice Center for peace of justice education where I'm on temporary leave this is this isn't working huh this the stuff we're going to talk about today is part of a book that I've been working on and I'm almost done with call can you see this at all I mean I don't care if you can see this I just want you to see the the charts a little while the book is called pay to play higher education tile 9 and the commercialization of girls youth sports even though the book is mostly about girls and inter and women at the inter collegiate level we're also going to talk about males today and look at one little piece of racism in sports there's so many things if we want to talk about racism in sports both how sports can kind of challenge racism and how sports can perpetuate racism there's a thousand topics we can choose from and I'm just looking at one little piece today in hopes that we can have an interesting conversation so what we're going to what we're going to look at is the percentages of inter collegiate athletes both male and female at both the division 1 and the division three levels and where their racial and ethnic breakdowns fault and how that compares to students as a whole and to see if people from certain racial or ethnic groups are over-represented or underrepresented among inter collegiate athletes okay now what we got here though is a very complicated factor in this case race is really a proxy for social class as what's going on with with what i call this pay to play youth sports pipeline there's a pipeline that exists between youth sports and intercollegiate athletics and it's very expensive it's increasingly expensive it's increasingly elite it's increasingly exclusive it keeps people out from entering the pipeline and ending up in some intercollegiate athletics lot because they can't afford to get into the pipeline in the first place so in the in the sense that race and ethnicity has some kind of class component to it I certain racial and ethnic groups are over-represented were underrepresented in lower income categories you see this reflected in the racial breakdown now the data that exists from the NCAA and the national or the National Center of Education Statistics doesn't always break things down by class by family income so we use race sometimes as a proxy but it's it's not an exact proxy and a lot of the data that have been collected are at such a sort of vague aggregate level it's hard to make specific arguments about them but it's the best we can do so I want you to take these things in our discussion with a little bit of a grain of salt because I'm not saying this is absolute science and this stuff is absolutely correct but it's suggesting things are there are certain patterns here that seemed pretty clear so we'll look at them in a tiny tiny fashion should turn out lights what do you think it would be better without lights are about no you need the lights the CBS back there needs the lights so we'll keep that going it passes around if you need to come closer we've got some we've got some seats in the front now this is uh this is Division one male sports at throughout the United States so it's not controlling for private schools versus public schools it's not controlling for flagship schools let's say the University of Texas at the University of Michigan and smaller state schools I think if you did that you would find very interesting patterns between among those schools but all we can do is look at Division one as a whole so these are these are scholarship schools these are schools that give some kind of scholarship a certain number far fewer than you think in most sports and for far less than you think in most sports and sometimes nothing at all in most sports but also sometimes associated with some kind of preferential missions recruited athletes at the Division one level usually get admitted ahead of time it's almost like an institutionalized early decision program if you make a commitment in a certain way and there's an actual form that you sign at the Division one level then you're you're committed the letter of intent commits you to that school and you're in place so this is how it breaks down and again I don't know if I my screens dusty TIFF ah so I don't know if you can see over here on the left oh let me have hdmi cable here no that's fine the breakdown in 2014 this is for 2014 the data have looked at it from 2014 and 2000 a 2014 the breakdown of college students by racial and ethnic categories roughly parallel to the breakdown in the society as a whole now again if you look at different kinds of schools that's going to vary if you look at these flagship schools so let's say the University of Michigan or the University of Texas at Austin you're going to find a smaller percentage of what we might call racial or ethnic minorities at the smaller state schools you'll probably find a larger percentage but in any case overall all these Division one schools the breakdown is pretty much the same so it's roughly sixty seven percent white twelve percent each of african-american and Latino and roughly eight or nine percent of what they call asian / Pacific Islander that's their categories I would come up with my I'm just putting yourself that term but that's the term that they is so that's how the breakdown is so if we were to look at intercollegiate athletics and say that it's roughly representative of the population as a whole we would expect the sports to break down similarly but they don't all right the breakdown of the sports doesn't parallel and mirror what's happening in the student body as a whole I tell you how pretty there Brendan pcs all right so uh these are just I've just put these sports because I like them and they were interesting and show different different patterns so what do you see that's interesting here what it was what does anyone see that's interesting what do you see that's interesting are you baseball player Jesus I can't get away from you you're in class you're here baseball players are primarily white all right so almost ninety percent all right our White House and the percentage of african-american baseball players is pretty small surprisingly small this is one of the things that surprises people sometimes those baseball has a reputation of being fairly accommodating and open to african-americans and Latinos now what's happened is is if you know at the professional level to the percentage of african-americans has been declined pretty steadily since the 1970s the percentage of Latinos at the professional level has been increasing since the 1970s but that's a pretty that's a pretty small number compared to what it used to be if you had gone back 30 or 40 years it would probably have been higher I know in my argument against this about this and maybe you guys have experienced this is that baseball has become a pay-to-play system also and most of the recruitment that goes on by division 1 coaches and Division one programs happens in a non high school setting happens with American Legion ball or summer ball or some kind of elite travel setting and that costs money and in order to get into that system and beyond a travel team and go to the tournaments and go to the showcase tournaments and be recognized and get into that pipeline you've got to have some some resources all right a basketball football you see african-americans are very much over represented at this level it's going to be a little bit different at the at the d3 level but the d1 level now again this is going to vary by school and type of school and prominence of school and I can't I have to each school individually and counterman and then half time last night to do that anything else did you see here it's that's interesting or that surprising to you in terms of the breakdown of this anything catch you by surprise larger than you thought small than you thought anything at all besides the baseball got baseball taken care of now which of these do you think is the fastest growing sport in terms of the number of scholarships and the number as well in Division three where there are no scholarships that they have the same kind of preferential admissions for athletes which of these sports do you think is showing the largest growth you've got a one in six chance of being right which one lacrosse is the second largest growth but you play lacrosse you play soccer it's on your thing you stole that shirt I thought so so they'll also be a second fastest growing one what's the first fastest growing it's growing faster among women than it is Roman Brendan you don't know what is hockey it is hockey that's right it's ice hockey ice hockey is the fastest growing out of women's sports score much faster than men sports has to do with title nine and other things which is why that's why that's what I'm focusing on in my book as women's sports is just expanding much more quickly than men sports but hockey is the fastest and hockey is is the most hockey is the whitest of the sports what's this gap up here do you think for for hockey it doesn't reach 100 and even if you include Native Americans which is another category which usually doesn't register it doesn't it doesn't get close to 100 there's also a little gap here and track and lacrosse there shouldn't be a gap but my pride and the numbers wrong what do you think the gap is in ice hockey I think that is any idea any thoughts you got think outside the box here well still is going to be a hundred percent even if there are three schools that have in our 30 schools that have three thousand schools that have it still should be a hundred percent if we've got let's say we've got all the categories all the racial and ethnic categories from the United States are covered here we haven't but let's say they are we still got about a five percent that there's five percent of the hockey players don't fit into any of these categories how come Brenda how come correct right there are international their international players generally from Canada but not only some also from Scandinavia Western Europe will see that among the women this gap is even bigger even a larger percentage of female ice hockey players at both Division one in Division three are not from the United States which is neither here nor there but it's interesting I thought you'd be interested not could be wrong but it's not interesting but I thought it was interesting there anything else here that you want to ask about or talk about something that that surprised nothing else surprising you here we read that you find counterintuitive yeah well you know we're going to it's going to look differently though at the d3 schools which is interesting because I think you're right our use of these categories is really problematic and you not only is it a bad proxy for class but it sometimes it mrs. stuff about class because you're right of people who we might from call east asian korean chinese japanese are generally more well off financially than what we call the white population but but seeing a asia is a big place asia's it's the biggest continent isn't it so people who are Asian come from all over the place rather than Lebanese that's Asian and half of turkey is Asian and Russia is Asian part of it so asian is it's a terrible category it's like latinas a terrible category lacks a terrible good whites they were all terrible categories just erase them but this is what we do this is what we have all right here's division 3 and see the the over-representation of african-americans in certain sports is much smaller here it's still pretty large basketball it's noticeable in in in football but it's not nearly as large tract is the other sport where african-americans especially are fairly well represented sometimes over represent now something to keep in mind as we've got we've got things going on is a very complex procedure here where we have certain enduring racial and ethnic stereotypes that might be positive right they may not be condemnation but the association that say african-americans are very fast and that's a people say well that's a compliment well it's still a stereotype still stereotype that's based on limited experience it's based on the historical success of certain groups certain groups in certain sports it's not really what we call a random sample because it's African Americans or Latinos or whomever have been channeled into certain sports versus others either through self selection or through some outside force then we get a misrepresentation of what's going on I add to the mix of social class patriarchy is involved here is there to see there are gender differences geography matters any thinking sports like soccer or lacrosse how a geography matter even baseball how a geography matter what's going on with geography where's the where's the influence of geography bridge I know if we talked about this yesterday and then we talk about geography well you know locations in the country aren't as important as sort of the type of place you live try not to give it away now otherwise otherwise that's that wise that was how do you think that matters I think that matters put the pieces together here come on impress me good yeah so certain sports need space and if you have an over-representation of certain groups and let's say urban areas then certain sports are just not going to flourish their sports like soccer or lacrosse even baseball basketball can flourish there you don't need as much space so that's a that's a structural phenomenon that's not something that that's part of a culture it's not part of heritage it's not part of the way people were raised its it's something that's it's a situational thing that room matters the same one of the sports that I'm actually believe it or not studying in this book is ultimate frisbee I know some of you may not consider it a real sport the people who play it do but that's another sport that even though it's very very gala tearing and has fairly low initial cost barriers it needs space and so the percentage of african-americans who play ultimate frisbee is practically non-existent they just don't play it's not part of the urban landscape that much although that might be changing and the way higher education works this is something talking about in one of my other classes right now this is what's driving the whole phenomena the changing nature of higher education an obsession of higher education with having a certain kind of brand with having some external image less concerned with the internal content of teaching and learning much more interested in getting 25 million dollars for a newly named law school that becomes the focus of our attention did hear that right law school just got a huge huge donation it's going to be the something-something the Rick x9 law school amount i donated 25 million dollars from my ample ample salary all right so you're through this is d 3 again d three men anything here that you find interesting or or thought-provoking in any way or is it all just what you expected come on now come on now don't be shy you can smaller baseball here then then another one which was which was pretty small to start with now you're going to see no questions about this because it's actually the women are as with most things women are more interesting and more important right how's that bagel then look very good actually what kind of flap so here d1 women and the sports I'm studying in this in this research project with my our soccer field hockey figure skating ice hockey and ultimate frisbee ultimate frisbee not here because there's no intercollegiate footprint at all figure skating has no intercollegiate footprint figure skaters female figure skaters are moving by droves by droves or in droze lots of them are moving from figure skating to ice hockey because of the presence of both scholarships and preferential admissions I've got this on the record from dozens of people who are involved in both figure skating and ice hockey so this is this is why higher education so important and the extra resources in higher education that are going toward intercollegiate athletics because it's hooked up with this whole branding emphasis rather than going toward other things like well you need the dorms are great around the dorm spectacular really like marriott suites and they're pretty fancy aren't they no not so much all right anything here you find interesting or or a counterintuitive or strange or surprising nothing at all I'm just reconfirming all your your pre-existing ideas I hate when I do that that's no fun at all nothing here at all nothing this gap surprised at that gap guess what the largest growing segment is if you break down field hockey by by state and country the largest growing population of Division one field hockey players are coming from where in terms of growth specifically yeah that's right but they're coming from Europe and some parts of Oceania and there with the big sport field hockey is a really big sport in a lot of the world here of course it's played by who in a lot of the world men alright so when men play it it's got a certain legitimacy here it's kind of here was sort of created to be the female alternative to football fall sport not in terms of what you do although don't miss any of you play field hockey at all don't mess with field hockey players those sticks are weapons and their you're just brutal with them field hockey used to be used to be in the 1980s in the wake of title nine it was one of the first intercollegiate sports for women that had a really large footprint it was the largest intercollegiate sport for women for the longest time not the longest time but for a couple years then basketball caught up eventually soccer caught up soccer was minuscule at first there are five really big intercollegiate sports for women that are represented in all 50 states and at the high school level also really really big what are they field hockey is not one of them anymore what are the big five Phil hockey's very geographically limited mostly from the Northeast right anyone not from the Northeast where you from really I love Portland I was just there I love it why are you here why did you leave Portland well have you seen it what you're in have you seen enough you will if you don't go back to Portland let me know where you live I'll go back to Portland because I like Portland and I've been here for a lot of years in the east but it's so in the northwest they don't play much field hockey right right so it's it basically field hockey if you look at the geography field hockey it sort of stops in parts of Ohio what kind of trickles out when you're heading west and then there's a little brief little brief surgeon in Michigan just a little one only half of the state of Michigan plays it I know a high school coach of the only high school team in Western Michigan and all their games they have to go across the state to play at least they don't have to go to Flint drink lead infested water but maybe they will one day if you go south it pretty much stops in northern North Carolina so that's the field hockey air it's pretty similar to the area of what game by the way what else what game also has a geographically limited footprint like that which someone mentioned before lacrosse are pretty much the same it's the northeast centered game although little pieces of it here and there denver now USC has a lacrosse program for women which they're trying again they try to use these things to balance out football which is which seems to grow like a fungus no matter where it is so so I feel hockey is not one of the big five what are the big five what are the big five for women's intercollegiate sports and this is the one that old people always get hung up on you got the four easy ones track which one volleyball do we have a prize or something that we kick you how about a golf clap I'm gonna be more appropriate that's right so those are the big five there have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of programs twice to three times as many as field hockey and lacrosse which are sort of in that second tier so soccer volleyball track basketball and softball those are the big five ice hockey though right now is the fastest growing second fastest growing lacrosse lacrosse and field hockey are going in opposite directions even though they're in the same geographical geographic area one is sort of in a steady state maybe even contracting field hockey and lacrosse is actually expanding more and more schools are starting lacrosse programs ice hockey though not only is it expanding but it has at the d1 level the scholarship levels are among the highest of any sport anywhere that isn't required to give full scholarships some sports you have to give full scholarships full at the full level of tuition room and board basketball is one football's one tennis if you give the maximum number allowed by the NCAA they have to be full which i think is six you give fewer than six you can split them up any way you want volleyball if you give the maximum amount which is either 12 or 14 you have to give them as full scholarships if you give fewer than 12 or 14 which we do here then you can split them up any way you want but football and basketball have to be full scholarships hockey does not hockey you get 18 what's called equivalencies a maximum of 18 so you'll get the equivalent of 18 scholarships which you can then divide up any way you want as a coach or as an athletic director the average the average field hockey scholarship in an amount is about fifteen thousand dollars that's what people get it's not fifty thousand it's not sixty thousand it's fifteen thousand dollars for La Crosse it's a little less for softballs a little more soccer is also about fifteen sixteen thousand dollars for ice hockey it's thirty four thousand dollars is the average scholarship for a college student a young woman who is playing Division one ice hockey on a scholarship this is accounting for some of the draw from figure skate figure skating won't help you pay for college unless you're I just won't unless you're in disney on ice or anything you can do it any questions about this the Division one before we go to the division three which looks fairly similar that's smaller african-american representation at Division three female level than at the Division one female up not sure why that is but it's it's fairly noticeable in most of the sports smaller smaller african-american representation here smaller and softball about the same in lacrosse yes sir no scholarships well well no I'll put it this way all right note no scholarships all right just like the Ivy League schools which are Division one they don't offer any scholarships either athletic scholarships either I'm going to get that on the camera it's not just a twitch because if one of the things that I've uncovered in this research been talking to athletes at Ivy League schools in Division three schools is that the schools they find clever ways of coming up with financial aid that's not an athletic scholarship but it seems somehow tied to their skills as athletes and then some of them when they have quit their sport of all of a sudden find their financial aid package has been restructured somehow which when they ask Abbas as well we've restructured everyone's financial aid package but there are other teammates who didn't quit whose there's wasn't restructured so they don't have official scholarships but they find ways and what they do have which may even be more important especially the Ivy League schools to a lesser extent at Division three schools they've got these the system of preferential admissions you can be admitted with lower credentials academic credentials and ahead of time if you fit the needs of a program at a particular time you're making faces like you know this happens right idiot right I was gonna I was going to guess the sport ice hockey football different sports been differently and the ivy league schools they bend the most for football and mean war so for ice hockey if he was an ice hockey player he might not even have had to take the test a couple extra time they might have just brought him in taking his pulse seeing that he was alive and if he was a good left wing and they needed a left-wing that could have been enough right fall hey can you do that right chew gum walk something in other parts of the country that are not Ivy League football and basketball traditionally have the greatest gap might call the credential gap between athletes recruited athletes and non-athletes right it is in essence an affirmative action program for athletes it's preferential treatment for athletes that and there's been researched on this you get almost to you get two to three times the admissions advantage being a recruited athlete then you do being a legacy or being a member of a traditionally underrepresented group so this is just something to keep in mind rigid we're going to be doing this stuff in class in about a month and a half all right so so be ready for us to about a month and a half so so you saw the one person I know my daughter had to deal with someone who got admitted to Amherst College which is where she wanted to one of the places she wanted to go and this guy he was because he's just an idiot he's just stupid I'm sorry I shouldn't say that on TV but he's stupid he's stoop he's done he does not belong in a really challenging school like that he don't belong here but he got our Amber's because he's good soccer player and he's struggling struggling mightily there to survive but he got it and a lot of the people didn't because they weren't good I think he's a midfielder they needed a midfielder or something so that matters because your acquaintance still playing football you know she play football so hard mm-hmm well it helps it helps more at the Ivy's even then at the d3s but in that in some conferences I've heard of this nest cat conference which includes amerson bowed and Colby and all they're very serious about this stuff good you know someone else you got into a Connecticut College as schools in that conference go they are along the mellow side now and then yeah they're they're a little more laid back but Williams and Amherst and Middlebury are out of their minds they are obsessed with having championship teams in as many sports as possible and place like Williams forty percent of the students at Williams College are on an intercollegiate Team forty percent that's a lot and so there's part of their identities part of their brand and so they make accommodations for people you know anyone who's going on one of those three schools since you're from Connecticut you're in the thick of it there Trinity is trying to be yeah they're trying to use sports to put themselves up in that class instead of using other things alright any any questions about this more questions or or Brendan even got something there you mean in terms of being big or in terms of growth well soccer's growing everywhere soccer continues to grow softball seems to be in a holding pattern volleyball is growing and that's nationwide now I think maybe volleyball is the one that's spreading to places that it might not have been popular they play probably playing volleyball at the collegiate level in Oregon yes ah they just added a new sport at the University of Oregon for women it's not gymnastics exactly that's right acrobatic humble Acrobat tumbling in higher levels it's a crow tumbling right why you use two words when you can combine them into one a crow tumbling so there's no equipment involved you just fall around trying to you tumble you tumble slightly which is fun tumbling around is fun on mats it's what we do when we're kids is fun they just added it i think a year or two ago but the schools that do it they've got to travel to i think they've gotta meet against valparaiso in indiana that's baylor yes we've been reading the same stuff it's pretty exciting competitive cheer that's growing that's growing competitive cheerleading is drawing which is sort of gymnastic ish that's sort of what people think about it as it's growing it's growing very fast it may Brenda may be growing faster than any other sport outside of what's going on here with lacrosse in the Northeast and ice hockey in the colder regions they don't have Arizona State recently started an ice hockey program for men they also have to have to travel long distances to play games because most of the schools in there in the pac-12 as hockey is not real big there yet but I bet it could be it could be one day they can tumble and then play hockey the same thing anything else about this you can write to see the gaps again this is from international students this is this is really big this is you know it's a one-point starting to shrink now I think because the Scholarship levels are so high and more MORE figure skaters are coming over to ice hockey so they're getting enough domestically to to close that gap but for a while ten years ago and ice hockey was first starting 10 to 15 years ago as a women's sport it was dominated by mostly young Canadian women made up the bulk of the end of course a lot of the schools of player right there on the board he sort of slip across and that was irresponsible for higher tuition costs if you're out of state and a place like Minnesota Duluth so that's also going to elevate the tuition though the scholarship levels that we talked about before if you remember that far back any questions about this anything else about this all right here's the here's the we're going to take this in a slightly different direction now but it all has to do with the same idea of a pipeline because one thing that the pipeline does this youth sports the college pipeline is it also dumps into the national teams we have a very rare phenomenon in this country the United States is the only country in the world that has organized institutionalized intercollegiate athletics it's it no one has no one else has it so all the people who are on the u.s. national team this is the world cup team oh wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute it's been updated she got cut sorry so we've gone from two african-american women to one and Sydney Leroux is a really interesting case in her self anyone knows Sydney Leroux story we should put we should put an asterisk next to Sydney the roof sheets marriage some other soccer player real hunky hunky guy looked like me simply the room was born in Canada this is closed just like it this is like a Ted Cruz story all right Sydney Leroux was born in Canada to a Canadian woman and an American father was african-american played a couple years of professional baseball I think ring a bell or anything in the 80s before you guys were born so she was living in Canada and when she was 14 or so she decided was she really likes soccer that she get a better soccer experience in the United States so she just her she picked up and she moved to Arizona and lived with this family who's one of the who was involved with this elite soccer club and she started playing with them now she was she was a dual citizen but she had the financial wherewithal in Canada because she would they weren't poor if she could actually pick up and move herself to glendale arizona and play soccer there then she went to UCLA and eventually joined the women's national team so so she wasn't it's not like she was coming from someplace in new york or newark or Hartford or Bridgeport or New Haven where Boston ashes from Vancouver British Columbia that's where she grew up and I know crystal Dunn is from Long Island one of my paisans and she ended up going she goes to college at the University of North Carolina which is pretty big soccer school oh and I don't know why she got cut but apparently she was pissed off when she didn't make the world cup team so this is the women's world cup team is very very very white as far as I can tell from checking on their where they grew up and looking at the census in terms of the income levels in those areas they are not let's say they are above the national median in terms of family income their families not them necessarily now because they're poor they don't get paid very much now with field hockey it's the same the national field hockey team is completely wipe now again I think this is more social class than it is race and ethnicity but it still expresses itself pretty clearly if you can't get into that pay to play pipeline I don't know every single one of these played Division one I think one or two played Division three college so they all played big time college programs you don't get into that pipeline and go through college somehow because that's where you apprentice now in college unlike the rest of the world where you were Prentiss just out in the community somewhere on a field hockey team we're on a soccer team you're not going to make the national team the US national women's field hockey team is is as uncompetitive internationally as the soccer team is competitive internationally although at some point the rest of the world is going to catch up with soccer now here's a used for a toy you do figure skating right these four people represented us these four women and the world figure skating chained up nope she got cut sorry she was apparently a stronger skater then then this one I don't remember her names but somehow she got cut and and she went to wherever the worlds were I been real pains trying to be interested in figure skating which I'm just simply not but I've had to pretend for the sake of this project so figure skating to it but figure skating's always been this way right there's no myth about figure skating the way there is about these other sports that you can use right that's the rhetoric that's the that's that that sort of rags to riches thing that we here Sports is a way for poorer people to access a college education that maybe they couldn't have otherwise but the reality except in a couple of sports in a couple of places the out and it's actually probably reinforcing existing class inequalities rather than making people more mobile it's probably hindering social mobility that's of sports and race and class and mobility you're all go together and and gender I could not find a decent picture of the US women's under-23 Ultimate Frisbee team but I've seen individual I would have had to paste 22 individual pictures of those 22 players 18 are white for our again we would call them asian pacific islander and almost all them almost all of them are from which part of the country do you think frisbees really hot in certain parts of the country you know where it's really hot it's too hot beds for frisbee right now for ultimate frisbee the lanai was not one of them it's big in the Pacific Northwest right ultimate frisbee who's the women's division one national champion an ultimate frisbee you don't know you don't know you don't know it's the University of Oregon the feud they call themselves a fugue this is not an air cleated sport you know or to find them you got to go through student life and do club sports and then they're lodged down there along with the quidditch or something right there right there like right under Quidditch ultimate frisbee zero they're all listed there Wow Seattle Portland big hot spots for ultimate frisbee now you might not know that unless you actually played it but it's big and the Boston area is another big spot so even in the sport leg ultimate frisbee very gallant Aaron very open-minded very accommodating very accepting the people who play it and then there's a variety of reasons for this which we could talk about if you want there's exclusion going on there to the exclusion it's class-based exclusion that has a racial and ethnic component to it so that's all I got for you so I was hoping we could we could chat about things or if not you can if you look at bagel or do what you want you guys got any questions or comments anything you want to talk about this or anything even slightly related to this this is just a little pain of a much larger project so what's on your mind anything anything you saw you get an ACS credit for this as some is that why you're here have to be some ulterior moldy make it count as I was as a csr just as long as you're honest without a lot of mine you're being forced to come here yes that's fine some of you too old for a siesta Brent what are you doing here you got lost engine yeah you were looking for the bar and you ended up here so what what what there must be something on your mind there must be something on your mind we've been talking about this for an hour yesterday's you've got to be all excited about this now in an intellectual sort of way anything anything here yeah nothing it's all interesting but but want to talk about anything more what would you like to talk about do you have any theories on the decline of african-american players from Division one division three specifically the basketball why there are fewer yeah in the missionary because yeah that's that's a that's a great question right the rest you can leave that's a that's a great question yeah I have a theory on this I have a theory i'm going to speculate see what you think about i think there's a lack of information about the opportunities for going to a d3 school and getting an education and and i'm not i'm not defending the system of preferential admissions because it'll make you mad if I defended I'm not and and I know I have a daughter who could probably get one of those things to a d3 school and soccer bar won't letter and you should so I won't let her play club and go to showcases and all that stuff she's his place for the high school and that's it she gets in she gets in she plays she plays cuz I'm a man of moral principles unless there's money involved and then then I can bend I so I don't think people know that these d three schools and Ivy League schools will Bend all right if you're coming out if you're coming out of an educational system that maybe isn't isn't quite as strong as a suburban one let's set and you think well there's no way I'm going to be able to get into trinity college no way I'm going to be able to get into Princeton I just don't have the skills my school look bad and I there no I don't have AP classes to wave around as though that somehow is a magic wand let's take an AP class and of course you must be smarter than people who didn't take a class that teaches to a test that cost $105 schools wave there that's part of high schools branding themselves or as a way of 55,000 people who took the AP exams last year and square to four or five so i think this people don't know people don't know that they got a real crack at getting into one of these smaller schools I think the culture has informed them to think college sports big and that's where the most of the visibility's hey you don't even you might not even know that Gayle has a football team or that Connecticut College does not even though other schools in in this small division three conference dip Connecticut I bought that when i visited there something I got a problem that's what happens at home something once you guys grew up and have families and stuff you'll see gender doesn't matter in the bathrooms at home leaving the seat up of putting it down that's what matters and what if they put the seat up when I went when I was visiting Connecticut College and touring it with my daughter and I had liked it at first and then I decided I didn't like it because it I kept seeing these signs of his reminding me of Villanova there was a sign that said you get like a printing limit and it was a big sign in the library don't worry a limiter kick your ass really rude she says sounds like villano nickel and diamond people and then there was we were in the dorms and I saw one of these bathrooms that you were talking about and then the no wasn't a tour guide it was some student cuz I always hit up sorry I chat up the students and and one of them told me if you forget your key and public safety has to come 25 bucks first time 25 bucks yes let's go over the nickel and iron so I'm sorry you can't go to it you can't go to Villanova and you can't go to Villanova life we can't do that so connecticut was off even I like the view you can see the view push down it's nice yeah he wants more sports yeah I don't think he wants yeah right huh yeah but you don't talk about Villanova rowing records are a lot of people there are thousands of people on the banks of the scoop of watching the regattas all right but we have there's no there's no scholarships for throwing but there's a 44 slots for women rowers so back to the original question I don't think people know about it I think if if people who were coming from some disadvantaged backgrounds knew about the opportunities that were available at smaller schools if they didn't mind the small ishness and sharing bathrooms or whatever then I'll bet those numbers would change I'll bet the schools would be accommodating because I think they would like to change their demographics a little bit and for some reason think that sports is the way to do it i think the schools are wrong for doing that but not the people the people who are reading the tea leaves are reading them correctly but they're being exaggerated the school's exaggerated the likelihood of getting a scholarship the industry the youth sports industry exaggerated the likelihood of getting a scholarship or getting preferential admissions to these schools the business they're trying to sell the pipeline and if you ever go to a soccer conference and look at the exhibition hall where all these vendors are operating its stun the things that they're trying to sell people it's just unbelievable I mean it's just like when we out of time is that why everyone's just like a class the time to God I have no idea what time is okay Dan your time you know k i'll go look at the clock be that way how about we stay for five more minutes if everyone has time 11 it would be good I don't want to say I got things to do and any of that does good question thank you any anything else Lenny Monteverde work with Sonny much yeah yeah I think cultural background is going to emphasize what you think you're the best options are in terms of giving your kids a leg up in getting into the College of their choice or a college at all so the emphasis on sports might be more prominent with certain cultural backgrounds emphasis on music might be but now there is no preferential admissions given to alto saxophone players or aspiring journalists and think of it just in terms of language right we've got this we've got this legal term for inter collegiate athletes right they've got their own okay what we call it let me call them you guys have to use this term when you refer to yourselves or the code they have to use this term what we call student athletes all right stay that's that's what that's what if you're over an athletic administration and you don't use the term student-athlete if you just use athlete or something you get up like a shock you get tasered if you don't use that term the NCAA invented that term in the 1950s to fend off a worker to scrim work or compensation case and football Colorado A&M school doesn't even exist anymore and it's stuck but we all talk about student journalists for people who work on any of you work on the school paper or the yearbook or anything like that any of you doing anything what what do you do does anyone do anything that's not sports-related extracurricular but what do you do you must be something what do you do debate debate all right so we don't we don't say oh well you're a student debater or a student forensic forensic ER we could do that we could give you your own title and say well you know all the time that you spend on debate Rutgers you represent our school don't you but you don't have a special status you don't get preferential admissions for that it might be something along the whole laundry list of things that you do this community serves that community service of course my AP classes eight languages isn't that and I'm I'm a debate but that's not going to help there's no there's no slots set aside a Connecticut College they've got slots they're given slots purty and you could have really lousy grades but the coach can use that slot as long as you over some minimum threshold but they don't do that for debaters we're journalists or read did you prefer you you play an instrument right I do but you didn't get any admissions advantage for it no because you really suck okay so it doesn't help but that wouldn't mad right wouldn't man so the these these things we don't we don't have separate classes we should have different names for each of you for what you do