Radical Transparency and Digital Governance: Taiwan Digital Minister on COVID-19 Response

[00:00:01]just do a brief introduction and then I give the floor to you just for all the MBA students full-time MBA this is the 12-month program that mission and velika are Pardo and and we have these sessions in this fighters meet the CEO but also in view of innovation and digitalization and then you actually fall in both categories so because of course I did it to Minister I mean what more can we wish so you are so welcome and well especially because you're not only Minister but you also have the experience of the take a business side as a consultant of Apple on computational linguistics you work there for Oxford University Press where you work on cloud lexie group lexicography I mean what a week well I can only say we are just very eager to learn about your experience and of course kovat 19 gives it an extra dimension I don't know how it is in your country but here we have been trying to use digital instruments to track down cope it so we've been talking about developing apps but try to see if all the time in the way so there has been a big discussion in this country on yeah if we're going to use these apps what is the government going to do with the information and in the end we don't have an app so the I'm sure you have the similar challenges so thank you so much for joining us and and thank you for Michel and really great to make is possible for all of us thank you so much the floor is yours excellent hello everyone are really happy to be here share with you this is a asked me anything and we have two hours and so just just feel free to start thinking of what to ask me and we will be using something called a slider can you see my screen at the moment yes yes we can see great right so using computer you can go to slider calm slash 6:05 without apparent sign or with the pen sir actually works both ways but if you are using a phone you can also scan the QR code either way there either way we will enter this chat room where you can ask synonymously anonymously or with your in real name any question and the main reason of using is very the chatroom is that you can vote each other's questions so the question was the most number of votes will float to the top where while the latest question will appear on the bottom right side and so if you just start asking questions and uploading each other's questions this will be as if I'm having a real-time conversation with the entire class but of course also feel free to unmute to yourself and speak your questions if you feel that I have not answered something to your satisfaction so this is very dynamic please start I'm putting whatever I'll slide in there and maybe it's a boy saying hi or things like that too just to make sure that the system works on both ends so oh here we go you're a very reactive Bunch so anonymous person will like if they not high but rather who which is great and just say who not concerned anyway why not and then so it would go like this where I highlight one question and go to another and so on and and someone says hola which is great as well right so just a brief introduction of where I am and so on that's great please keep it going so just a brief introduction where at I mean the Social Innovation Lab in Taiwan so in hi this is in Mandarin characters and here you can see that this is actually a park so I'm holding this cam and you can look outside of the window and there's just random people I think they're holding a digital opportunity class outdoors you can see some Lego blocks showing the global goals I think that's 11 3 and 17 if I'm not mistaken I can judge by its color and then outdoors there's the basketball also many people are trying out a new extended reality stuff like audio ski so the main point is that and literally working in a park and I walk to work every day every morning and walk back and everybody can just drop in and have 40 minutes of my time and just chatting about pretty much anything the only thing I ask is that everything that transpires in this room and indeed in all the meetings that I hold is on public record and so you can see the public transparency of everything that I work as a minister there's in the past three half years more than 1,000 meetings with more than 5,000 people over 200,000 speeches including internal meetings and this is called radical transparency and it makes sure that when lobbyists come to me they argue only on public benefit for example typically visit me early on and argued for uber to get introduced in Taiwan and the very first thing you know it's doorbell because this thing is not only on extra-record it is actually on 360 video record they can put on VR plans and relive the conversation and then at the end of it Davis said I do think there are some details that we can work out as it as the local team to send you stuff I'm like just everything used in my will will be made public and so this is very interesting because then all his arguments is based on you know reducing traffic jam reducing pollution mitigating climate change and things like that better utilization the public transportations by the public open data the operatives and so on because in this setting there's literally no way to to lobby in a way that only benefits your company at the expense of other companies that's how radical transparency works and so in additional search innovation we use the same principle to counter the corona virus and this is not the wrong slide this is actually a rice-like and it was cute talks and that explains physical distancing cover your mouth and nose myth musing don't put head to your mouth remembering to preorder your medical mask and all this are just creative people making their variation on the same using Creative Commons materials including my picture and the dog's picture the dog is the Shutterstock literally is a companion animal of the participation office of our health and welfare ministry so in each ministry with extended team of people who are in charge of public engagement and housing welfare one this was this talk so whenever we have a daily press conference they introduced a new measures to count here coronavirus they just translated into a internet meme with the dog where people came very freely translated and remix and so that's another part of it in addition to radical transparency this also produce tons of creative commons materials that people can freely remix and increase the are not value the basic transmission rate of good ideas that they are ideas worth spreading and that is that our basic counter this information strategy which is called humor over rumor and so the main idea compare over rumor then is to make sure that we proactively share scientific knowledge you already stole my meeting transcripts and scientific physical distance same stuff and we also react within a couple hours whenever there's any trending rumor with a higher basic transmission rate than one for example back in a couple months ago in April there was a conspiracy theory there's an internet rumor that says because Taiwan is ramping up medical mass production from 2 million masks a day to 10 today we're going to soon run out of tissue papers because it's a material of course it's not but the rumor says it is so it provokes outrage and have a higher basic transmission rate than one so within a couple hours our premiere our prime minister who looks like this that's our prime minister liu jianchao posted this the social media which is the backside of our premium and he's showing this both bottoms we clean it a little bit and then it was a huge caption that says each of us only have one pair of bottoms which means that it doesn't make sense to stock pile tissue papers and seduced hilarious I mean this this whole picture is packaged like a tissue paper box and so it went viral and people saw this table is the important table that says the tissue paper I've made out of the South American materials while Mayacamas are made of domestic material so desta a payload of this meme but people who saw this and laughed about it gets vaccinated it's literally impossible for joy and anger to coexist in the kind of control panel of the mind if you have watched the film inside out and so when this colored tissue paper yellow means that people associate with humor and joyful mood the conspiracy theory stops being viral it reduces the Arnold value of that conspiracy theory and indeed we can see through social media that it decreases and conspiracy dies down within a couple of days just as with epidemic and so we counter to info damn it by making sure that our human versus rumor have a higher transmission rate and that people who contacted this meme you know gets vaccinated inoculated against this information so we don't have to resort to takedown or lock down to counter the info demux so that's the humor of a room a part that is also a lot of engagement strategy broadly based on this so I'm just beginning with this kind of random five minute talk so that you have time to enter your questions so it like by now is there anything anybody who want to talk about you can also instead of using slider just start speaking well I would have a question that I wanted to if there's the students firstly but could I ask it now yes so so how do you cope since I'm looking at the Netherlands and we have and I think using digital tools and it's really difficult at this time of kovat where we see clear advantages just like with the electronic patient file we see clear advantages but time over time we fail to implement them in the Netherlands in a yeah in a smooth way because all the time privacy is in the way and then even though people see the advantages and they share probably more with you know on Facebook and and and and in all kind of other social outlets social media outlets but if it comes to doing something as the government it's always opposed how do you deal with that how can you actually implement as a digital Minister I'm sure you where you have this on a daily basis how do you do that well by making sure that it is the people who develop this technology and people who control those technologies we are in not in the business of state surveillance we are in the business of making a state transparent to the people not the people are transparent to the state and because we're a liberal democracy and so if you look at Co hack which is the counter coronavirus collaboration in hackathon Co hack you can see easily that all the top winning teams from seven countries are privacy enhancing technologies for example let's just look at lock bought lock bought as a system that recourse that has information of individuals before they arrive at hospitals so they focus on building your kind of self reported symptoms temperatures were aware of hours or whatever but it works in airplane mode it never transmits anything to anyone not even Bluetooth or anything so it's purely your kind of electronic diary however if the contact tracing medical officer come and visit you and ask where have you been in the past 14 days then this generates a one-time link and and this is exactly it was only the precise information that is needed by contact tracing and none of the privacy information of the other people that you have met or anything like that and so basically this proactively protects privacy by acting in the citizens best interest because as opposed to traditional interviews where you can divulge more private details of your friends and families then this kind of Tours this actually helps you safeguarding your Ference environment family's privacy while still getting that kind of absolute minimal information data contact tracers media and so this serves at the best interest of the person and it's open source everybody can take a look at it and there's the international organization called my data and this is the Taiwan chapter of it and autonomy uses distributed ledger to do this on a neighborhood scale where people who care a lot about each other's house can share they not between them but he never goes to a cloud that is to say it never goes to a centralized database and Gemini makes a visual storytelling of the transit visualization so that people can get themselves informed again without involving a centralized state or capitalist multinational and and so there's a a kind of theme to the Taiwanese mode of social innovation is what I call data collaborative is variously called data trust of data coalition they'd have co-opted and there's a lot of ways for that but the main idea is very simple is that a social sector and keeps every stakeholder accountable and so this is one such example the real-time medical madness map right anywhere in Taiwan you can see your nearby pharmacy how many adult masks are in stock and how many children's and you can use your national health insurance card to go there and swipe it and collect nine if your adult and ten give her a child every two weeks but this instead being published every day or every week is published every 30 seconds so this is precisely like it distribute ledger because everybody can go to a pharmacy collectives my mask wait a couple minutes refresh the math or 100 tools like chat pause voice assistants and actually see the number decrease by 9 or 10 and so if it rather increases you will call one I to to write you a call if you see something wrong is going on is there something that we can read about it because government there's a website called how one can hope that us pronounced parent can help us and the main picture is who can help I won and and this is even more interesting because this is not a government website this is just going through a lot of iterations by crowdfunded youtubers and crowd-sourced content so if you do go to town can help that us you can see that this is entirely in this in the social sector and and this is this shows all the people were funded to make it a reality acute animation that asks who can help and can help in a time of isolation which is solidarity a timeline of the pandemic and a crash course and this crash course is voiced by a famous youtuber dr. Chen Jian Ren the top epidemiologist at the activation that literally wrote at epidemiology textbook and also our vice-president this is an if you know the idea of unfair advantage this is literally the person who know the most about epidemiology was the vice president when the current a virus outbreak outbreak happens so good and that just doesn't need to convince the best Muslim because he is languages to share with and then the people with a ration mask they can also dedicate their uncollected quota maybe they have some to spare to international audience so we gave out like five million months in the name of more than 600,000 citizens half of them choose to be anonymous half of them chose to review their name so you can see exactly who dedicated how many masks for international humanitarian assistance oh yeah I don't know what time it is in Taiwan can you hear me yes yes good morning interestingly slider doesn't allow me question so so I have to switch on my mic it's very interesting to see reamer humor over over I think it's very creative it looks pretty good I have a question when you were talking about how to discourage lobbying in the country and making it public my question is that how far you go to make it public I'm sure there are deals involved the pricing structure and there's some confidentially confidentiality clause and there is a fair practice clause also involved how do you go in the public and and how you do that to win the trust of the people because at some point of the time I think people get engaged hooked onto it and when they don't see those data points because that's the expectation build your building also expectation for people right in the public so that's my question how are you go there yeah so it's great questions so if you go to visit dot pedis the TWU visit that PDI as the TW you will see exactly how we do it is a protocol of handling official visits to me and it says that there's only a few exemption exemptions like elected public officials and foreign nationals that are professional diplomats other than that everything should be made public and if verbatim transcript is to be published it allows 10 days of co-editing and that's when if you bring up an act out about your acquaintance we have not cleared out for public you know reading then you can read act out but everybody can only edit their own part of the speech so on the most extreme case you will see me talking to myself because the other party have removed every single thing from the transcript and that is allowed I will essentially rephrase their question to me and so you will see then for example recently there is such a visit and you can see there's this person was the name questioned and where I essentially just repeats their question and then but in a way that doesn't compromise their details because there may be some whistleblowing involved there may be some power imbalances involved and so this is a very considerate protocol but I always publish everything that I said within the context so I think that is the protocol feel free to consult a particular we we put a lot of care in designing that yeah yeah thank you so much I think it answers my question but there are a few questions are but I'll back it for later I mean there are three votes so okay so the question trending now is quote when you make decisions to tackle a particular situation let's say the rumors about issues are your face was any internal opposition's and how do you attack out and vote no there's no internal opposition back when we complained that the government doesn't respond quick enough to people's questions and trending issues we occupy the Parliament back in the 2014 to T months transparency that's called the sunflower movement and so because of that at that time Taiwan was deliberating a trade deal the cross-strait service and trade agreement was baiting and more than 20 NGOs mobilized this occupy which is completely peaceful over three weeks half a million people on the street many more online and every day we inches toward the rough consensus using deliberative technologies including digital and analog and so after the Occupy everybody who is for this kind of real-time conversation gets elected as mayors sometimes to their surprise and people who oppose this kind of you know humor rumor or open government or whatever they lost the election and so that marks a shift in the political known basically everybody is forward this is open government it's one a very rare thing that our Parliament or the four parties agrees on that of course I'm nonpartisan I of course I agree on that but I'm very happy to see that is a one of the least divisive issue in Taiwanese politics in that government should respond in the here-and-now to the people through radical transparency and participation and if a lot of questions or I'll just go to Clements question I think first those questions perhaps the next question when that's yeah that you have I think Sabri my mom my mom yeah oh yes that mom said do you find radical transparency that can push new people or organization off from discussing with me or does it generally always push them to be open suddenly there are people who just refrained from discussing these issues because the things they were gone is essentially to their own profit but to the detriment of other people and these people do not come to my office our for obvious reasons it's just like my office half of my office our delegates from each ministry who are secondments in in essence to my office so from each and every ministry there can be one delegate and so well they're a very cheerful Bunch but in any case so what I'm trying to get at is that so this is actually a police from the Ministry of Interior and from the national government Council and from the Minister of Culture National Communication Commission Minister of Education of law of Foreign Affairs basically order pretty much of all the people facing ministries have dispatched one second Prince because we don't allow for more than one in the team and so this is a entirely cross-functional team and they still report to their ministers I'm not their kind of new boss rather I ask them only to work out loud that is to say to share their innovation was the public the civil society and so even internally this way of radical transparency breaks silos because then they can share their best practices and they can find that their volumes do align actually on sustainability and many other things with other ministries they don't have to invent everything I learned within their ministry and so that changes the culture so that when I tool around I want in addition to my you know weekly Wednesday office hour I tour around Taiwan every other Tuesday or so and sometimes also weekends and go to the most remote places the indigenous nations are the remote islands the places are fall from Taipei and I just live with the people there maybe for a night or two doing a a sonography hanging out with people and then people would just learn to trust me a little bit and they started speaking their hopes and fears and worries and when we do that it's entirely local it's just me who travels but everybody in the Social Innovation Lab all the twelve ministries I just mentioned their section Chiefs and above are in Taipei or other municipality joining through extented reality this virtual meeting room so that is a town hall for local people they just show up to the town hall but the central government respond to them in the here and now and that also cuts through a lot of bureaucracy because then people can just innovate and see their innovation getting amplified through this continuous integration of social ideas and we attract everything a social innovation that I want that govt that TWU and the best ideas if they are against the rules then actually they get a a year or half a year usually a year to try out that their version of the rules is better than our version of the rules that's called a regulatory sandbox it could be around stuff during vehicles in tech platform economy 5g you name it other than I think money laundering and funding terrorism because we know how that will turn out everything else is very game and you can challenge any part of their rulemaking so this is open innovation right if it the new rule of around East guta for example or whatever fails then we think the investors they paid a lot everybody earlier a little bit it's like Rivers Walker but if the wins and then they have the first mover advantage and so it's a very flexible with regulatory co-creation with the innovators while ensuring also this is the front door of this my office such innovation laughs while also ensures that when people bring in like self-driving tricycles they can work with the nearby market literally anyone who walks into the park to co-create the norms around self-driving because for example people said that because there's a flower market nearby they have a lot of heavy flower pots they want to use it as shopping carts as essentially things that follow them around rather than it that they sit on it so they can do Han free shopping and if they get get fool then the platooning kicks in and then this steps back a little bit summon another one so you have a fleet of self-driving shopping carts that can help you navigating the flower market and so this norm first approach interacts with the market sets the perimeter for code and then for a regulatory co-creation making sure that people can modify it however they want like in a flower market you will want this to have two eyes not to see a you slider it doesn't really need those eyes however issues who they're following and things like that their social code domestication of emergent technologies so to answer your question anyone who want to break the law can go to meet me but only if they are breaking the law to create and better new law if they are breaking the law just for blackhat purposes that's just a to their benefit and other people's detriment then of course they do not need a sandbox application just like you know if you're funding terrorists or doing money laundering they don't come to the seeming I have a question because you're also a filmmaker how as a minister do you still have time to and do you and if not do you miss it because I these are different worlds and I can imagine that they can inspire you at the same time but do you miss it or do you still have time to make films I have time to code I have time to make creative work and also even translate some poetry because I'm a a politician I'm not a politician so as a politician [Laughter] my main work is is poetry and film whatever is just extension of that poetry so I often said I'm a lowercase Minister means that I advocate and preach about sustainability and digital innovation but I'm not an upper case minister where I order you around and this is important because I believe the power of art really moves their social innovations around that cute dog picture and many cute dog picture films is the key to get people into their very good hands annotation habits the short films that prompts people to wear medical mask as a social signal to say I'm washing my hands and not touching my face that is even more effective than say you know wearing a mask respects other people or some other altruistic incentive so if you do your incentive design right in a very short film like 15 seconds or a minute you can get the idea that's worth spreading spread and that is how we fight the pandemic together by getting everybody to say oh we can improve on it that's remix that's also part of the contemporary culture about video making what is your latest work I mean I'm sure the last thing is literally me speaking to the camera in a very short 5 and 1/2 well almost six minute video about a fast fear and fun and we played that video in the mini lateral meeting of 14 countries I think three days before the world has Assembly and so we haven't held its own mini lateral of top health officials where we shared a fast fear and fun principles and that was the film you can find it down actually the home page of pedis public digital innovation space if you go to Peter's T W as I just did this is actually that the latest film where you can see me talking about digital social innovation as are properly captioned and stuff oh thank you yeah so I guess there are some questions I say no screen or is that not a question yeah it's a is a question it is a question it's just like the question mark is a unlocked question so the the question is around this identity and the IDS in particular distributed self sovereign this identities so do you think it will be soft by governments a existing tech giants or ethnic startups all of the above the great thing about that the ID is that everybody can be part of the ecosystem and it's just like the open web or the Internet that's the inter in the Internet whereas each network operator is free to operate their own local network they have to agree on basic like the border gateway protocol the internet exchange burger cos of course that internet protocol itself whether the force or the six version to participate in the inter part of the internet and because the internet Engineering Task Force where I also contributed has no army or Navy we really cannot force any telecom operator to use our solutions so we need to do what I just shared with you which is through radical transparency radical participation to show that there is some shared value among all the different positions among stakeholders so actually my work in a Taiwan digital public innovation space is to take Internet Governance and just project it also on the you know good out bureaucracy and it seems to be working and so distribute identities is one such issue that internet lacks that layer at a very beginning because it used to be a very small network and now we're kind of building that part in our using the latest w3c and IDF specs and the great thing about those suspects is that is a multi-stakeholder approach where you can see the editor be a tech John and actually the main work may be done by a tech startup or vassilissa and the great thing about permissionless innovation and today innovation is that any spec doesn't preclude a better spec from happening Bitcoin - don't stop aetherium from happening and so I think that will continue evolve and I think the main thing that we the policymakers need to do is to follow closely so that the algorithms they may lead their society a little bit but ultimately it is the social norms that leads technologists so that for example a I become assistive rather than artificial intelligence so that's my main reading it's a multi stakeholder approach time management so two people three now so I used a good ode Pomodoro method where I work you know twenty five minutes at the time and I internalized that so I have a kind of gut feeling that I'm inching to it the twenty five minutes past the clock or fifty-five minutes past o'clock then I take five minutes off and do some social media and stuff and so my point here is that the Pomodoro method is less about this thirty minute chunks although they they help but rather it is about getting up in the morning and setting your priorities straight for the day and if you continue to do that then you can make sure that you delegate everything including the active delegation to other people and then you can focus on the creative work that you enjoy that's how I remain a politician even becoming a digital minister and so in a sense we're making a film together because it's a record decision but the point is that if you do not feel like you are the best person to do something you can take 25 minutes to delegate either way and that applies even to the act of fine fighting out who is the best person to delegate I think that is management so then what is best exercise and I don't know I mean I walk sometimes quickly to the Social Innovation Lab and back that's pretty much the early exercise but I regularly do that and the trick of getting up early in the even though it's raining and do that walk is because I put all my devices in my office in my home there is no touch screens the only phone that I keep is a landline and there Nokia eight one one zero where there's no touch screen there's the film that neo uses in the Matrix movie so anyway so the point is that by depriving myself of touch screens and broadband connectivity and in my home I get up and I get need to get some work done so I better start walking quickly to the office so that's how I motivate my daily exercise routine it may or may not apply to you so every has a compliment and thank you for the compliment do we move on ambition for Taiwan I see I find an interesting one what what is it that you are going to what is your vision for the next year or the next few months next year so I predict and with some accuracy and firmly it's my conviction that a year from now the peak of Taiwan the Savia the Jade mountain will raise by 3 to 5 centimeters and that's a geological fact I want is rising to where the sky and and this is because we're caught between the tectonic plates of the Eurasian Plate on one side and Philippine Sea plate on the other and they bump into each other all the time so we have earthquake all the time but because we're very resilient we build our structures in a way that survives earthquakes most physical ones in ideological ones and so that after each earthquake Taiwan rises a little bit more toward the sky and that's my idea around transcultural ISM Tama has more than 20 national languages each representing indigenous Australasian new immigrants also different cultures including multi-stakeholder internet culture hacker culture and so all these coaches just bomb into because we're a place was absolutely freedom speech according to a civic as money that the early country in Asia with absolute a freedom speech sometimes they create innovations that no other cultures can say for example when we legalized marriage equality a year ago we legalized all the bylaws that is to say the rights and duties of marriage but none of the in-laws that is to say the family relationships and desert how many's innovation that take care of the cultures of their more out people of people of which to them the East Asian marriage is rather a marriage between two families like Romeo and Juliet era stuff and for the younger people is mostly about two individuals so we created a hyperlink act and hyperlinked the same sex marriage only to the bio loss and not the in-laws and that's after two referenda and one Constitutional Court ruling pleased everybody the vast majority of people are now happy in Taiwan about marriage equality unlike many other jurisdictions so that's a real example of how this ideological earthquake ends up letting us rise to where the sky and I'm a higher shared value a vantage point so I see Taiwan continue doing that among all the different global goals because most the question now only have one vote I don't know whether is other people maybe you want to build on the questions a little bit anyway so the next question says from the government perspective how does the government gain trust from citizens when using digital tools how it to be developed in the future after the crisis so we gain the trust from the citizens by trusting the citizens to give know trust is to gain their trust and by trusting citizens remain not only radical transparency that makes sure that people understand the why of policymaking not just a watch of the policy we also make sure that anyone who want to improve it can do so because it's open API and or open saw that is to say when people want to tweak there's ideas they do not have to add for a patent or a license or anything they can just work on that they've had collaborative so I will use one example to illustrate a point this is called air box so this is what you're seeing is the PM 2.5 level I think of Taiwan and each thought is a measurement station of microsensor from a person's home balcony or more likely than a primary school because they use it to teach date has to worship and so I think this picture is quite old actually three years over there at this point it there's close to 10,000 and measurement stations like this so covering pretty much all parts of Taiwan that has people and so people can very easily see what is the temperature or pollution or whatever like in this TiVo IOT system which is entirely led by the social sector and when they built this the environment minister only has less than 100 measurement points even though very precise they're very far away from people so if you have two numbers one from very far away and run by the government and one run out by your primary school teacher in the nearby primary school you probably don't you try schoolteachers numbers and so there's strength in numbers and because they published every real-time measurement to a distributed ledger so it keeps people honest try you cannot go back in time and modify the time the measurement numbers and so they gained legitimacy and in Taiwan we always say we can't be the social sector we must join the social sector so we sat down and found out what they need and turns out they allow the government the Environment Minister to calibrate their sensors to produce it in a more cheap production facility while remaining stable in our humidity levels but in exchange of the government using their numbers they asked us to complete a puzzle to put measurement stations on some noticeable gaps and those gaps are in industrial parks these are private properties and so they cannot just break and enter and install those measurement stations and so it turns out that we owned a lot the municipal insert government on the lap in the industrial parks so we made an agreement and made a deal so that we make government data using also micro census and we share that in a I think top 20 stupid computer in the world the national high speed computing sensor so that people working on analytics models and algorithms can do implies computation to predict the weather and pollution level and that has been extended to water box and so on so the main point about the collaboratives here is that when the social sector knows exactly how it works it controls the data or at least is part of the district Elijah then of course they trust each other more and they can choose chose the government or not but the government gets legitimacy by saying we're joining not replacing the social sector work and that is that the trick of gaining the trust from the citizens by making sure that we maximally trust the citizens so after the pandemic because we never closed any schools there's been zero lock downs in Taiwan and it's been like 30 days or so with no local come some cases but we're now moved firmly in the post pandemic the ccc is now touring around Taiwan just as I do and in joint local food and live streaming all of it and so we're we're firmly moving in a direction where our even giving out a stimulus coupons so the same like mask map and civil society made masks distribution visualization it's now being repurposed for our stimulus package which is also a very interesting mechanism design you can just spend I think 3,000 Taiwan dollars which is around I don't know 100 euros 90 years and if you spend 90 euros and the government understand you have spent it not on e-commerce but on like real face to face consumption then you can go to a nearby tell machine and nearby atm and then out of those 90 euros you get 60 euros back as cash like a cash back program it'll probably also spend out cash and so that's the stimulus package because we over rely on the e-commerce and delivery and contact with bill rate and so on during the pandemic we're now resuming face to face come us and the stimulus package is basically participatory where people just engage in working with each other to choose the kind of values that they do for example I'm going to focus on the social enterprises that can maximizes transparency like the Human Rights Watch or whatever and if they have services or products I'm going to spend my stimulus 90 euros there and maybe actually adding a lot more to it and I'll get the cash back and use that as a social signal to say oh and then spending this to another pro-social so enterprise and so this offers plenty of chance for people to brag in social media how much public benefit they have caused by their stimulus consumption and again this is that all of society mobilization process so that's where we're going and after the pandemic it's not like all over but it's been very how healthy and safe in Taiwan now there's more votes and happy to see more of its eight people who would like to know can you throw some light on the string relationship was that PRC was China I understand recently China blocked our seat head to the wh8 or the covetous fishing well as I said we held our own mini lateral and hosting the virtual meeting from the Ministry of Health and Welfare and I would say with a much higher prevent video quality than the actual Waj but in any case we what we found is that the international community really likes the Taiwan model because we strengthen democracy strengthen liberal democracy while countering the pandemic whereas many jurisdiction is being faced with this false dilemma between say you know Human Rights on one side and public health on the other and so any part of that our model is kind of automatically applicable to a liberal democracy ranging from the daily press conference to the medical mask to the Duke CEO humor versus rumor and so on and so it's a epicenter to epicenter collaboration and it doesn't matter whether we remember observer or whatever because the seat order you can't really see them when you're in a teleconference actually you can rearrange the window however you want so that the diplomatic protocols are being reshaped and the top of medical offices previously very difficult to invite your online conferences are now you know chop into your home anyway and so we can very easily invite them to join our online conferences but actually I've been doing this very regularly now so in i GF the Internet Governance forum which is part of the UN we gave a talk in UN Geneva in the IGF but entirely through teller robotics so the digital double of me basically spoke in the UN in Geneva however it because they check their passports they cannot allow people with taiwanese passport in but i went in anyway as a robot as you can see here that's me yeah so and then and then the robot can turn it can walk around it can talk to people and can share our ideas around teach to opportunity and so on and so it's a new diplomatic norm and while the people from the PRC on there did protest it at the end is just playing a movie even though the movie was recorded two seconds ago but it's still just playing a movie and my words are on the record and the PRC ambassador did not leave their room meaning that they think it's okay with a certain a UN resolution so I've been doing this pretty regularly since then to now and just very happy that the top medical officers and many other offices are now embracing the same technology as I did and 2017 but I chose that bag at a time not only to challenge diplomatic norm but also because I adjust my gel-like very slowly I generally don't like long distance travel and also I want to reduce their carbon footprint by air travel so we'll continue doing main laterals over Internet and I'll multi stakeholder forums so seven people would like to know which advice would you give future leaders of bureaucratic organizations either private or public or social or in to initiate a culture change to what co-creation and agility so I will share my HR policy first so as I said every ministry that's facing the society now probably want to send dispatches and settlements to my office and when I do my HR evaluation there's only a few things that I look at first this person need to bring a fresh perspective need to complement the existing team members on a new way of looking at things which means they probably have a different background different training different you know intersectionality of neurodiversity and things like that so if they are too much like one another then did that that doesn't work so that's a fresh perspective and the second thing is that they need to of course do stuff the minister but they need to be willing to share to give at least as much as they are taking from the team back to their ministry and that's it and so that ensures a culture where giving the gift economy works and there's no three riders and everybody benefits from a fresh pair of eyes and there's no kind of virus of the mind no ideology that can overcome Peters because everybody is so nearly diverse so just like biodiversity protects against contamination pandemic of what our ideological biodiversity political biodiversity ensures that whichever petitions sandboxes presidential hackathon public debt rose as the team there's someone else in who can take that person's side so that enable our office to take all sides and when the office can take all the sides within a large organization the entire organization will support you in your mission it's only when you're perceived as taking one particular side at expense of the other where you'll be in trouble so the key of co-creation is taking all the sides and a key to agility is to assemble a maximally diverse team that are as much willing to help as they're here to lie 7 people would like to know as I know you're a city caucus um before and after becoming an official minister happy to see the lowercase Minister what trigger you want to promote information transparency and system participation well it does test literally how I launch I mean that's my native culture so back in 1996 when I was 15 years old I did a few science fairs and discovered this great website called archive.org where people publish their preprints they're still around there's many archives now and the future of human knowledge is being created on the preprint service and all my textbooks were out of date so I just told my teachers that I want to quit junior high and start my education on my wor web and and surprise only all my teachers agree with that and and the principal even said ok from tomorrow you don't have to go to school anymore and so basically the bureaucracy was very innovative that supported me in doing my startups in doing my ventures and doing my university studies co-creating with professors over the internet over the preprint service and because I work with those innovative bureaucrats for lack of better term I'm remained very optimistic about the innovative capacity of bureaucrats and of course the web itself is a open multi-stakeholder political system so I immerse myself in that system for 6 years before I even have the right to vote and and so for me that's my native political system I only know that political system before the legal age and by that time I'm thoroughly naturalized in the internet hacker culture and so for me it's literally the only way of doing politic which is poetics and then definitely way to promote engagement which is open multi stakeholder engagement and and I think it's a rare point in the history where people who occupy the parliament successfully agreed on the 40 month not one less at 2014 during the sunflower and it's very rare that a head of Parliament agreed with all of them it was a successful Occupy and one of the demand is to build a grassroots civic foreign constitutional reform that's enabled our everything how the government works with the people not for the people and so I'm very grateful for that so five people would like to know how do you ensure that new sandbox laws are not detrimental to society during that six and 12 months while they're being trialed well we ask for the best white hat hackers to give them a try and so penetration testing very important we dedicate five to seven percent of our IT budget just to cyber security and in the next four years we're expanding that to five to seven percent of the entire budget of all new and of us which is a huge amount of money and so if you're a white hat hacker in Taiwan the African Hakka in Taiwan you get very well-paid there's ten testing opportunities everywhere and you get recognized as national heroes you'd meet with the President and Minister all the time so there you don't fall to the dark side which has more cookies and so by working with the white hat hackers we ensure that it's every security even for our a proving ground the shadow in Tallinn Carla autonomous driving lab is contested for six months before it even opened to the first self-driving vehicles so that's for the second security part and then for the social norm part just by making sure that those vehicles drive very very slowly and so if they run into things are people they just trying to do things or people they don't hurt things or kill people and and then we look at the post mortem and see how to improve and so I think next week or so diversity will apply what we have learned to endure try to cope and start the post-midnight self-driving bus I think capacity is around 35 people and they use the same dedicated bus lane so it's like software-defined tracks and of course people have already plenty of time working with dedicated bus lanes so it doesn't create any new social norm and it basically always can stop quite quickly when they detect something in front of it and this of course there's still somebody on the call at the very beginning as a trainer to push the brake if not you know speeding up so that that is all a kind of gradual way of making sure that society expects what you when they're self tearing because instead of top-down way where the government's like oh this must be a smart city no what we're saying is that you're all smart citizens you can help figuring it out so four people would like no I have experienced both in business and also in the government how do I think those rules can cooperate with the law related to their store development great question so by law there's of course code is law but the textual normativity that the law as we know it and have a kind of human judges that provides access to justice so you can break the long for example occupying the Parliament and then the judge will find out you know it's civil disobedience so that is actually not a crime however in algorithmic law often there really is no way to break it is like the physics law if the Internet protocols are designed in such a way that all the partnering PS need to adhere to a set of protocol it's literally unimaginable to be part of the Internet while breaking the protocol while breaking the Internet Protocol because by definition internet is the PS that adhere to the Internet Protocol and so it forecloses possibilities which is why permissionless and to an innovation is so important because otherwise the algorithmic normativity can preclude certain innovations from happened and there may be capturing ways of essentially just buying all the companies that produce better technologies that actually are detrimental to the evolution of new ideas and so I think the state at the moment the government can help breaking the octopus breaking the the kind of institutional investments and other kind of defect or controller shift the effect of monopolies over the development of technology to empower small and medium enterprises and social innovators to create their own visions of chartered cts or chartered social innovation labs that runs by their own rules and and work with the people to show that it's bad or good and businesses can help scaling out such developments and work in a way instead of just doing social responsibility one can do business development by proving that one can work in circular design in other pro-environmental pro-social ways because not to avoid social sanction although in power mostly they do it to avoid social sanction but also social preferential buying which is what we're doing with our stimulus coupons and so I think the state can design the mechanism such that each participating business in order to maximize their self utility also incidentally maximizes or at least optimizes a little bit the externalities and that is how we mean by participatory mechanism design one example which is very quickly following up on the airbox of the same team in the presidential hackathon day the water box in the water box is given to all the businesses that manufacture things in Agra clangor because we have a law that says if you are in the a great clan for farming use and you produce anything that pollutes the river the waterways then the Ministry of Economy can actually shuts down your electricity and water directly and so this is a pretty powerful mandate and of course what a business is that it's not me who pollute is my upstream that pollutes so just like the air box the water box is a solar-powered small box that you can just drop in the waterway and it uses zero-g network to write to a distributor ledger the top story pollutants in the water and it's very cheap and so the Reformers can just use it to detect collisions from upstream all the businesses that are not polluting are incentivized to also install these in their waterways to previous upstream that is polluting at the end of it everybody have a distributor that shows and it's easier than air because the air has different dissemination models in water you can pinpoint which place do the pollutions happen and once you have a shared landscape like that of course the business there will be a pro environment and pro social because really that is in their best interest and there will be incentivized author to help guarding the waterways again that because that's in their best interest so public governance using this triple edges has such a possibility to transform digitally the incentive structure around extra technologies and businesses and I think now is around o'clock in Netherlands and around four o'clock in Taiwan and I find there's still a lot question on the slide oh and thinking is it good to have a quick coffee coffee break then we will peg around the 10 after 10:00 is it okay to you cool and we will yep [Music] and we're back sure I think most of our up on earth on the way online now an animal person or maybe an AI yes there are two camps of AI development and to or what they consider singularity how do I see the concept of singularity and how do i position my role okay or ship or I don't know innovation or Kent's law so I'll reach you my job description and that's is why I call myself a politician and some of you may already know my job description but I'm going to read it back in 2016 when I first become digital minister I had told our HR department yeah this is much of description 17 18 17 17 simplistic it's just a reliable date night effective partnership and open innovation and positioning you know at this midpoint there been tired of the and because SPG's were very fresh and on camera is road ally in 2015 so by 2016 it's a very new thing and the HR people said ministers is antonio nobody is going to know what you mean by seventeen eighteen seventeen seventeen and seven six you have to speak in plain language and so i just translated that into plain language that as my job description which I'll read it to you now much of the fishery where would be the Internet of Things let's make it an Internet of beings or we see virtual reality let's make it share the reality but with the machine learning as make it collaborative learning with the user experience let's make it about human experience and whenever we hear that the singularity is near there's always remember the plurality that's my job description and so to me this is my uncle to the question the plurality itself the transport role Republic of citizens which is my English translation of the country name is actually very plural in a sense that there is really no single driving value dem mobilizes for social movement be made the only thing that we can agree is that we're a liberal democracy and we're here to help the world otherwise we disagree on pretty much everything and so any vision of singularity is infected in Thailand political and social landscape people would want to augment to assist each other and their intelligence but they want to be smart sensor none of them want to be smart city residents and people don't want to be just users we don't teach in the school media literally with each media competence which makes sure that people are producers not consumers of media they want and so forth and so that is my answer to the question I do not think there is the finger of the clarity I think here is the plural of pluralities and that is the reality here in Taiwan four people would like to know probably yeah do you have a concern in terms of like okay well outside entities let's say in other nations or other developments of AI and IO T's do you have a concern that their agenda may deviate from your agenda of plurality of course not only deviate they are working in completely opposite directions right when we say radical transparency we mean making the state radically transparent to citizens whereas in some nearby jurisdictions when they say transparency they mean making the citizens transparent to the state in the same word different meaning and the corona virus pandemic only amplify that so now the state is even more transparent to citizens compared to pre-pandemic but in some nearby jurisdictions namely the PRC the citizens is even more transparent to state than before the pandemic and so it's a great amplifier and what by the core philosophy of all the jurisdictions and I think dear there's room the earth is big enough for different governance mechanisms to grow but of course we want to make sure that our creativity can flow freely without any you know threat of extinction or things like that and we also provide a safe harbor for nearby jurisdictions which previously we rely aren't there journalists to keep our government accountable like when there was still martial law as to remember the days of the martial law we rely on the journalists from Hong Kong and sometime from Thailand to keep our government accountable now of course dear journalists are looking up to Taiwan and specifically for Hong Kong there's many international journalists as you know students are now seeking humanitarian aid hearing power which were providing and so the point here is that we're happy to contribute to our vision the pluralistic vision we're not saying that this is the only one in the planet but we think this is a better one and we invite everybody who think this is a better way of innovation to participate in the Coalition of the Willing of their own innovators so HTML my favourite technology so the next question is in my opinion what or in what field with the next big digital technology breakthrough something honest in level as the Internet cloud the HTML and so on and so forth so first of all HTML doesn't work with the other HTTP they are equally important sorry I have this nerd immunity thing but it indicates that the point here is that I think it's not about the next big thing previously of course people would say Oh Universal computation through ethereum that's a pretty big thing and building all of the digital ledger that's a Bitcoin which is pretty big I mean I am a co board member of radical exchange is a international NGO working on quadratic voting other such innovations and I'm working with quite a while and also Biblica training which who knows something about a theorem and in making sure that these ideas develop in the etherium like quadratic funding and so on gets projected even more to the liberal democracies that is to say we incorporate them into our national regulations and policies and so on so I think the the next big thing is still democracy it's just that democracy reimagined as a set of social technologies and everybody can be associate technologists that apply such day-to-day decision-making listening scale mechanisms and create a pro-social rather anti social media landscape so I'll just use one example I'm not saying this by itself is the next big thing but it's a pretty big thing and helping you think it's quite successful here and this is Coppola's it's a very small wiki survey machine learning toolkit that allows for people to find almost magically their consensus I'm pretty much anything rough consensus anyway so it's AI power to listening and scale so what you're looking at is a real conversation we first used it in 2015 in Taiwan and to deliberate about uber when uber came to Taiwan they were too exposed professional drivers and amateur drivers and the amateur drivers of course is against the law at a time so but their idea is that algorithm dispatch is better than law so you should you know work with algorithm not work with long civil disobedience all that disruptive innovation and so we use rectangular technology for this to listen to everybody uber driver taxi driver passengers associations who may and they can see their friends and families all the different clusters which identify the different feelings that resonates in her group and also intergroup about uber so we shared all the open data about traffic data congestion data is the one to detect journalists who do sense making and with for weeks we run this police conversation and we ask a very simple question what do you feel what do you feel about this and then there's no right around about feelings but there's resonating feelings and less reason in feelings and then we id8 using face to face live streamed broadcast meanings to make sure that the feelings that resonates the most become the best ideas and the idea that take care of most people's feelings ends up becoming the regulations that we use to regulate uber and it was a wild success everybody is happy with the result so at a moment over operas in Taiwan through the cue taxi but search pricing and all those innovations are part of the law and every other taxi company also adopt that as well which improve the overall experience so listen Leo technology works like this you get into the website you see this one statement from your fellow citizens this one is from me saying I think passenger liability insurance should be mandatory ok so you may agree in which case you move to or me because I'm I'm ready now or you disagree in which case you move apart coming and the software automatically calculates the most devices point which is the x-axis and the next most divisive point which is the y-axis and you see the next question the next sentiment from your fellow system and then you agree or disagree and then it goes on and then you will share what do you feel and then you share and everybody else felt as well so disputes a literally 100 dimensional space of sentiments and we run some dimensional reduction algorithm to project it to the two-dimensional canvas and use k-means clustering to find the common sentiments so this is just standard machine learning stuff and it reflects the crowd back to the crowd everybody can see what their friends and family feel like there are not anonymous trolls on the Internet these are your friends and families it's just it didn't have a conversation about uber over dinner and so people learn to empathize with all the different slides and people literally see them merging together into the middle during the three-week conversation because there is no reply button there's no way for trolls to control the conversation if you don't have the reply button you cannot make personal attacks if you see something you disagree like with slide oh you can just propose something else and hope that it gets more uploads and that's it and so at the end of each products conversation we'll still see those ideological divide the divisive statements maybe five of them but they don't consume ninety-five percent of calories rather was that this huge amount of things here the consensus statements where most people agree with most of each other well most of things most of the time and that's true for any liberal democracy it's just a filter bubble the social media and even some institutional media makes us forget about the consensus and to make us over concentrate on the polarization and so a pro social media like well this is bringing this sense of politics back this is a real conversation a virtual Town Hall that this one is run in bowling green canopy and no matter whether group AARP identifying as Republicans and Democrats they agree on some very simple things like the most consensual one says instead of science technology engineering and math math stem it should be steam art should be part of stem poetry I think should be kind of stem because it's the same creativity in it and I mean it's an essential component everybody across the political aisle agree without that so when the mayor takes doubts into account their popularity the chance of next reelection just magically grows because they offend nobody by taking out this crowd consensus of course more problem exits more diversity in the outcomes always a good idea and so this enables not only people in the same Township but rather people of different jurisdictions even across the world like we use it to run a us-taiwan conversation on how to mitigate this post pandemic technologies and so on so it can be used on any scale and then it always deterministically actually find the most consensual parts of the population and reflects this shape to the polity which reassures the people that we are a polity despite our cultural and known differences and so the common values out of different positions that is I think a very powerful Democratic attack we use a lot of technologies Apple is just one of the many the police is the most visually appealing so a demo India but there's many like that and I think democracy is the next big thing okay so German line would like to know can I share and talk more about the 17 sustainable at Lyon Taiwan give us a holistic picture we just finished course on circular economy and sustainability great Camacho so the 17s DG's in Taiwan we have our voluntary national review like pretty much everybody else and we have the voluntary local reviews as well so if you go to a social innovation platform si that Taiwan the govt dirty doubly you can see this presidential hackathon from a movie that encourages you to participate in all sort of different SDGs and the colours each and every one of it so you can see a map of Taiwan you ask for a holistic view let's give you an aerial view and you can click each municipality and each County and see in their voluntary local review which SDG they are focusing on and so I'll just you say something about circular economy so that's 12 and then 12 is new Taipei City in Kaohsiung City and if you click reveal are well it opens the issue link which may or may not work live demo there actually works so then you can go to this circular economy chapter in the villa there's a meandering version they have English one as well and then in Goshen City as well and so if you go to Gaussian City which is having its moment right now in Taiwanese media you can see everything Oh actually can switch to English much better and then you can see their local social innovation organizations what SDGs they're working on and you can click in these SDGs and find the other you know networks and there's also special topics around independence of makers of like this one is about telemedicine which is STG 3 and 10 and all sort of different topics where we unite the more than 400 social innovation organizations co-ops enterprises universities and so on and it's all ste indexed still University the parties in the university social responsibility program they get their capstone projects index through specific commitments like something that something within the SDG and then they can find their natural allies and their partners throughout this network for social innovation organisations and when any enterprise or larger organisations procure like PI from the DM there's a TM where you can see not only the beautiful SDG pictures but actually if you buy more of these things how much social return of investment do you get and this is a SD g3 which is good for your health but also good for the health of the planet this is a circular economy how you can work to reduce waste zero waste full circular while supporting I think these are excellent mushrooms or something like that but in any case so that if you buy a sufficient number of those goods and services then I personally go out and give you an award and so that is the way that we encourage more responsible consumption and also make sure that people integrate these socially responsible products and into their supply chain so the first year we run it with you three to three years ago people make one-time purchases but by the second year which was last year more than half of them have integrated these into their supply chain which means that they understand our procuring from things that have a positive instead of a negative externality actually not only enhance the brand but actually results in better quality because people participate more and give them more ideas they essentially crowdsource their research and development and that is what's needed for a circular economy to grow so that's the holistic picture you can check it yourself on this social innovation platform as either Taiwan that you'll be the TW German also so yes please keep going okay German also would like to know which I would I please share the experiment goes because I noticed a different country have different goals so how they set which one is their target how they defined their stages yes and then also because as I understand sustainable you also have to involve citizens so how you educate the people what's the value for buying this this circular circular products mmm yeah Oh questions so Pawan is is pretty interesting in the sense that the environmental and social groups have a higher legitimacy than the government so this is not about the government teaching people this is very pro-social impro environmental groups teaching the government and and we developed this because after the lifting of the martial law there's many very large charity organizations community building organizations that are still around and we only get to directly elect the president in 1996 but at that time there's a decade or more of those social sector organizations growing the CSS growing and so the CSO's have a higher legitimacy even to this day when there's a natural disaster if the G charity reports a number and local government reports a number people are is going to believe that's the G number it was not going to believe me in the county number right and the same goes to the homemakers Union Julian long to the terrace foundations for for each of the SDGs they're working on they have higher legitimacy and their respective achieve of the office of the municipality and so because of that we can't beat this year service we must join the CSS and when they say Oh circular economy is the next big thing we've added to our national strategy that's initially in 2616 when the new government comes in there's only five topical industries but this ESI was mobilized and forced the government to include circular economy and new agriculture the the agric innovation act AG into the priorities and so this is literally grassroots and so I think the more pertinent question in Taiwan is how are we making sure that people working on pro-social issues can also get amplified by people majoring in business the economy and how people working with environmental issues can benefit from the latest of only material science and for example in fashion design how to how do we promote that these things are more hip to to people and if we have regulations that harm this for example we have a national identity drink maybe you have try as called a bubble tea and there's many people who think that our passport should change our national logo to the bubble tea and everybody will know that we're from Taiwan but in case the bubble tea if you see the iconography it usually comes with a straw right and the straw is usually draw in a transparent manner which means it's probably plastic and so that actually haunts the circularity of things because plastic straws you can't throw it away and you know very easily right so three years ago there was somebody on the national participation platform joined a govt that he doubly that proposed that we gradually ban plastic straws and other single time use pencils in art you know nationalization like vibhuti and of course they use a very provocative imagery such as a sea turtle being choked you know with the politics of straw and things like that and so that's petition gone at five thousand signature in very short record time and the person because we'll have pseudonyms is only known as I love elephants and elephants love me so I have no idea who they are but they can get so many signature in no time so we have to a vote or our participation offices vote every month on top two issues to face do a face to face collaboration with and also left strained and so we meet with the petitioner and she's just 16 years old a high junior high school student and she's really good like Greta thumb back at you know mobilizing the social media and we're like okay but but why did you propose this in the first place and she's like is our civics class assignment alright my teacher just tell us to find something that resonates with the imitation crowd and we think a paisa straw you know not not that and so we invited all the stakeholders including the makers of single use pencils and they sit down and they're maybe in their 60s and explained job back then like 30 years ago 40 years ago when it first entered this business they entered out of a social responsibility because at that time the hepatitis B is prevalent in Taiwan and only single-use attend cells can protect one another from the happy now of course happy is is cured is easily cured so you don't need that anymore but the kind of ritual still remains in older generations so then they brainstormed I start from obvious solutions like glass straws also straws made out of circular material that by itself reduce carbon footprints because it's reusing the agricultural waste and so on and so the young people who petitions point out in new direction but a more senior now seen the new direction actually participated in the material science and design of the new things so they can collaborate on crowfunding events so now we actually found plastic straws for a takeout but would say in Taiwan and you see all sort of circular design coming on and that's all because of a civics class assignment I think this this is not only a good international case of intergenerational solidarity but also a great way to think beyond that you know a generation linear a new generation circular the O generation may also be very socially responsible you just have to help them to clear their browser cache as so to speak to clear away their misconceptions and preconceptions so we have time for one more question so let's say you pick which one you would like to answer no no did the crowd picks the one so the top one says I saw there were all four okay yeah yeah there's a clear winner so or maybe somebody figure out that you can use private browsing to vote for yourself but any case so could you please share the experience last year when you visited the neitherlands Dan Hogg and brother Tom and Germany sure so there's a lot of Ministry level visits quite a few and I'm really happy to see that we aligned our circular economy sustainability and so on it surprises me that in Germany they at that time did not consider broadband a human right it generally surprised me and there's a lot of kind of debates around where the problem is actually good for democracy or not which from coming from Taiwan it seems very alien to me but I gradually started getting into the point of their culture of basically a just like Taiwan mobilized for the pandemic very quickly because we have crier exposure to SARS 1.0 in 2003 so we are so good at mobilizing against arts 2.0 which the novel coronavirus the Germany of course had a history about panopticon right the East Germany Stasi is the one and so they very much do not like anything attracts them including cell phone towers signals and things like that and so I think privacy enhancing technology is something that you nice high one and Germany together while of course in the Midlands there's less of that and of course still a lot of debates and I'm really happy to say that Taiwan a our lab have a not privacy infringing design of the contact tracing app that we're not using because we don't have community spread but we're already working with the UK so if you want to check out I think it's called a our lab study W they can also help you at I think it's called Co virus does cc easy to remember domain name right so if you're interested in that I'm sure that we have plenty of AI researchers and privacy enhancing technologies that can help you in developing that not necessarily branded by 1 is just github so I think that's something that we both care and it's a great thing to unite our sub together to fight not only the pandemic but also the info dam against the one and I particularly like the Netherlands culture of everything is deliberative even intergenerational issues and things like that even the pension reform which is not our deliberative in Taiwan I tell you it could be deliberated in the in the Netherlands I think we have to learn from that the deliberative culture and using digital technology to help amplify in death culture to the rest of the world so that's I guess the answer to the last question great questions by the way really good questions so I think now because it's almost 10:40 so I think it's the almost closed time for this session so I'm Michel I like to represent my classmate to thanks for sharing your experience and your insight of the social innovation for us today and especially now we know you are really busy on copy 19 prevention and also you have to launch in the stimulus package so ever it's it's a very good for us to learn and respect from your how you how the government's can transfer from work for people to work with people and to use technologists to serve people and also because I am from Taiwan so I would like to take this opportunity to invite my classmates Malika and German they pull from Taiwan because we want to thank you because of your contribution now we know our families and our strengths now they are in Taiwan leave safely and healthily and in the end we hope we all can use the humor to again stir this crisis thank you yeah thank you joy takes us further and have a safe and good let the time yes thank you so much inside for all of us I'm easily gone on and on and on and German with all your good questions and I think interaction of everybody thank you so much would love to work to invite goodbye we want let us know when when she visits the Netherlands because we love ya to have a session at the University or anywhere else I mean it doesn't matter where but just to have other people interact with her I think there's so much to learn from government I'm really going to see if I can and go to government and inform some people on this because I think there's so much to learn the way they use the open source and they interact with with the community with people really impressive so thank you so much for having brought this to us and all your effort to do so quite and it was so nice to see all of that and