Urban Planning, Ethics, and Muslim Identity | Dr. Heba Ezzat

[00:00:00]Cities are not just physical constructs  but also moral and ideological ones. It's   a genocide of places and spaces and communities.  You put on it the label of development. Are we   closely aligned now to western standards of urban  development? It's not only that we produce places,   but we also consume places. The Hajj costs a  million and 700,000 Egyptian pounds and this is   something like $35,000. from the Egyptian scene.  2.9 million have been displaced because of urban   planning. Once you have urban segregation, we are  not brothers and sisters anymore in Muslim cities.   Fik is away from that. You can write a post or a  tweet, but it's not the same active participation   that it used to be in many of the Muslim capitals.  Are modern cities killing our souls? Dr. Hebra   Azert teaches in the department of political  science and sociology at Iben Haldun University   and was formerly a professor at Cairo University  and at the LSE. [Music] Dr. Heb razalamlayum and   welcome to the thinking Muslim. Thank you. Well,  it's great to have you with us. Now, today we're   going to have I think a fascinating conversation  about cities. I I suspect uh a lot of our viewers   will think um why we're taking a sociological turn  here because normally we stick to politics and   intellectual ideas on this program and uh I think  that I heard you talk about this subject uh at the   umatics conference here in Istanbul and I found  it absolutely fascinating. So I want to start with   um what you argued your central argument I felt  anyway at uh in your presentation and that was   that you argued that cities are not just physical  constructs uh but also moral and ideological ones.   Now I've always believed cities are bricks and  mortar uh and so value neutral. So you could   have you know a city that looks like London in the  Muslim world and and it wouldn't be odd in the in   the Muslim world. But you argued something quite  fundamentally different like how do modern cities   reflect dominant civilizations and values of our  time. It's not only actually about modern cities.   It's about any city. Um yeah we I originally  come from political theory background. So I   was not interested in space and place and I was  more interested in ideas the history of ideas and   uh also the the different notions uh conceptual  analysis of power sovereignty nation um uh these   concepts here and I was doing my PhD in the topic  of uh uh citizenship the notion of citizenship in   Anglo-American liberal assault really uh and  then I started realizing that uh all those   who are talking about cities even in the language  language itself coming from the Greek and then the   Latin and and so on that citizenship is related  to living in the city right so when you talk about   citizens they are the members of the political  community in a city and then uh starting from   the uh Greek thought that we uh study and teach  uh you have the direct democracy where people come   together so we we take it as as a phenomena but we  don't realize the theater you know that they came   together in a place and hence whoever designed  the city uh however it developed it allowed   space for people to come together thousands of  people you know so there is this big space where   they come and then there are the institutions  and organizations of uh political management   of everyday governance here so I started giving  more attention to spaces and cities and then I   uh became very interested in urban sociology uh  at Kai University uh uh where I originally studied   the as an Egyptian and where I also taught for  a long time. U political science is very classic   in a way. So study of urban sociology is not uh  very common. Uh but I tried to introduce it to   political theory classes etc. And then I started  realizing that u every uh phenomena we study um   it's important to add the uh bit of the urban  and material and the spatial. So the picture   as it's as if the picture is a puzzle and this is  the missing piece of the puzzle in our political   and sociological analysis generally in political  sociology generally. So uh I think that uh this   sociological turn towards space and place and  also in social uh uh other social sciences like   political theory um the space and place started  uh getting more attention and that it's not only   that we produce places but we also consume places  and the place is consumed by different classes. So   it starts with a a specific class and then other  classes consume the place and change completely   the landscape etc. whether it's like uh a place  for the rich and then the rich like for example in   the case of some western city moves move outside  to the suburbs. So the city is left the texture of   the city is left to the middle classes and lower  classes and then at one point the uh the those who   are living in the suburbs want to move back to  the center of the city instead of commuting. So   they encourage those who are in the city to move  out and make the suburb life very romanticized   you know but then they move they gentrify and  then they uh um take uh the space again in the   middle of the city over 50 years the the the swap  of positions takes place in a way and through that   you can analyze lot of phenomenas. Yeah. Uh I was  just actually uh because we are living in the time   of Gaza. Yeah. I was just uh explaining to some  of my students a few days ago that when you say   why aren't some people moving and acting as u  forcefully and as emotionally as they used to   do 10 years ago. Of course because of political  tyranny and because of um authoritarian regimes   curbing the ability of people to demonstrate  and act and lobby etc. But also because of some   sociological, urban and economic reasons, right?  uh the everyday life uh is actually changing in   a way that makes people's habits in their everyday  life change and hence some of the issues that used   to be very central seem as if they are bit very  far. You can sympathize, you can write a a post   or a tweet, you know, but uh but it's not the  same active participation that it used to be in   many of the Muslim uh capitals. What's changing  uh the everyday life in the city that over 50   60 years in some economies and in some societies  basically introduced patterns and introduced uh   u uh different ways of life. Uh because in urban  sociology for example uh there is this very famous   um uh idea that urbanism is a way of life right?  So uh when you see that cities are looking more   and more alike in a global age uh the way you  move uh the way our bodies move in the city   and the way the city is planned to control and  and or curb our movement is actually related to   urban planning. You don't choose how to move in  the city. You are either allowed to this space or   not. Yeah. Walkability is getting in some cities  more and more difficult because you have to either   use the public transportation or use your own  car. But uh uh less and less spaces are uh given   to public uh uh like parks etc. In some cities  like Cairo for example uh the the space is very   minimal compared to the number of inhabitants of  the city that is uh estimated between 20 million   and 25 millions during the day definitely more  than that because it's like greater Cairo now.   Yeah. Uh so uh our habits of everyday life change  and hence our mentality changes. What we can add   to that is also the economy. I belong belong to a  generation where we actually uh um experienced the   socialist uh regime. I was born in 65. I remember  that till I was 10 or 12 uh our uh clothes and our   even shoes were bought from uh public um sort  of stores. Uh and uh you had no many choices,   Yanni. We didn't have brands, you know. Uh  which was fine. I we were happy with our life.   uh you would have a black shoe uh for the school  and a white shoe for the sports uh classes and   then a shoe for celebrations or events or whatever  birthdays or whatever. But now if you look at our   way of consumption uh and then the big trap of  debt that more and more uh we had the national   banks and then more and more we started having the  the other uh banks and then people started getting   uh offers uh the credit card the loans and your  life is very much uh anchored in consumption in   a way from the lower middle classes to the upper  classes. Yeah. And this is the lifestyle that the   more uh unprivileged classes look up to. Uh they  want to uh imitate that as well. Uh and I think   that uh the idea of the of the debt and making  people burdened in their own uh life with the   debt they uh owe to the banks and to the different  uh uh different entities. and you're thinking all   the time about how I am I going to survive and pay  my bills for example or pay my debt. Um the the   mindset of the people makes the other big issues  very looks looks very remote looks very distant.   Yes, ideology helps of course we had different  uh uh different waves of ideology socialism,   Marxism, Islamism etc. Yes, but with the age of  the decline of ideologies and rise of populism for   example that takes away the attention from more  global causes and focuses on the very ultraational   uh it becomes actually difficult for us  to uh uh to imagine um the same interest,   the same energy to support and to sacrifice  for causes that are more automatic.

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[00:11:00][Music] Are you saying that um since 2011, because  I know you were very much invested in in the   revolution in Egypt and you know, our viewers  can can Google your history and and and see how   central you were or how you were. um uh involved  in in that period, a very important period I think   in Muslim Mummma history as well as Egyptian  history. But are you saying that autocratic   regimes can uh can construct cities in a way uh to  prevent revolution to prevent uh um uh you know a   uh rebellion or to prevent u uh demonstrations  and protest over issues like Gaza? a way to do   that and and are you saying maybe that's what's  happened in Egypt? It's not only about Gaza,   it's also about uh um sort of protesting for your  own agenda, for your own so let alone Gaza and let   alone Sudan and Yemen and other issues that people  should be interested in and uh following. Uh yes,   of course, definitely if you rearrange the  space and place, you can obstruct the movement   of masses. You can disperse the mass. Yes. And  uh I have a paper that I wrote when I looked   at Taher Square at one point. This was 2019 and  uh a picture taken for the square on a Thursday.   You know our day off is Friday and Saturdays.  These are our weekend. So uh Thursday is a very   busy day like Friday in Istanbul for example.  It's like try to avoid the streets in the rush   hour afternoon because it's going to be any crazy.  Yeah. So uh I looked to the picture. It was taken   uh uh midday uh on a Thursday and the square was  uh was very empty. A few cars here and there, few   people walking. And this is not the Taher Square  I know. Uh all my life really a Thursday at that   time it's usually very busy. Yeah. 2:00 it was  like 2:00 and that is the time of the school buses   you know and people coming out of the bureaucratic  uh um institutions that are centered in downtown   K. So I asked myself a very simple question from  the observation where did the mass disappear you   know it's like where are the people and then it's  easy to say because of the security measures taken   so that people don't meet in Taher Square you know  so uh or that the city developed habits because of   what happened 2011 till 2013 people automatically  started uh in their system thinking that Tahir   Square is an area of you know uh troubled uh  uh demonstrations and attacks by the security   etc. So let's just avoid it. If you're driving you  you start developing a habit of driving taking the   long way but avoiding the center of the city  because of what happens there all the time.   So this is one explanation and then I started  exploring more about that and it was for the   first time as a political theorist floating  with the ideas in the ivory tower that I   started realizing that uh traffic and the way the  roots are designed affects very much the density.   Right? So there were two high roads that were  built in the in the wider downtown area of Cairo   that actually took the cars from one side of the  Nile to the other because Cairo is split by uh   by the Nile. Uh so that no traffic is needed to go  through Tahir Square. Okay. What about the people?   Many of the ministries that were located in Tahir  Square, including the big administrative building   in the middle of the square where actually  thousands of people would go to get a stamp, to   make a petition, to apply for something, to fill  forms etc were moved outside. So here also the uh   individual uh sort of pedestrian density was very  much uh uh changed. Yes. The third thing is that   many dense areas that are poor areas that are a  walking distance away from Tahir Square 20 minutes   to 25 minutes walking distance which is not much  were completely demolished really. And these were   areas where actually uh people came to protest  in the square with the middle class and with the   uh different uh um members of the syndicates  that are located in downtown area etc. uh they   could come and join and and and create a mass. So  these areas were completely demolished under the   banner of urban development. Interesting. So  let let's let's zoom out a little bit and and   sort of I want to understand how uh spaces were  conceptualized in classical Islamic period if that   is a right way to phrase it and how spaces are  are conceptualized in the modern secular period   or the modern liberal period or however we want  to phrase or a capitalist world. What's the what   are the tangible differences between the way we  historically as an ummah conceptualized our cities   and how cities are constructed today? Any city is  constructed along the the lines of the nature of   the social bond. Right? So if it's if the social  bond is tribal then you'll find that the city is   basically divided amongst the different tribes.  Ah uh many people don't realize that actually the   the uh Greek democracy the direct democracy  of Greece of Athens uh Athen had 10 tribes.   It was a tribal this this very famous direct  democracy was actually a tribal democracy.   10 tribes basically were settled around Athens and  they were represented in the council right by 50   from each tribe and the power in the council was  rotated between the different tribes okay so there   is a very strong tribal foundation of the Greek  direct democracy and this is the bit that we don't   give attention to we focus on the direct democracy  and the democracy and the history of democracy but   not on the tribal nature and also the role of  religion is very important in any city. So if   we go back to the Greek again and then I will move  to the Islamic. Uh in the beginning of the uh of   the republic the book book of Plato he mentions  that Socrates was going to attend a religious   uh celebration outside the city and then he came  across uh this uh group of people that started   asking him to come and visit their home friends  and then the discussion started about justice and   this is how the book starts you know. So here you  have religion and also you have the celebrations   outside the city where the tribes are centered  uh not necessarily in the very um uh location   of the of the city itself. Uh cities grow some  cities grow but in our modern times as well and   also in ancient times some cities are built from  scratch. They don't they are not villages or small   uh communities that grew into a city and  then there was a dynasty and then a wall   was uh built and then we had uh uh invasions  around and then we had an empire being built   etc. No, they actually are built from scratch.  St. Petersburg for example was built from scratch.   It was designed as a city in order to serve a  specific political era. When we go to the time   of prophet Muhammad again the uh um the the  city was very much tribal divided between the   different tribes. So each tribe took a a side of  the city more or less and then you have the center   where there are the practices or the trade or or  whatever. Yeah the there was a difference between   uh Mecca and Medina. Medina had this element of  the Jewish communities and there were two tribes   that were the major tribes in in Medina  and then we had the new um uh the new um   uh change that took place which is the hij. So you  have uh new people coming to the city that were   not seen as what we call today migrants you know  they were the muhajiun more than just migrants you   know the migrants that share the same faith in a  moment where the prophet himself is from outside   that community and they invited him to come and to  provide him safe space uh and hence the the fabric   uh of the text the texture of the city started  changing uh uh to a great extent and the bond   started becoming institutionalized to accommodate  this diversity in the city and to manage it by   good governance in a way and then we have all  these agreements that have been done between   prophet Muhammad and the different it was not  enough to say I'm a prophet they will follow me   and I will rule no it was not enough it there  needed to be some agreement and some consensus   uh on which uh um the city would be um sort  of reestablished in a way as as a community   not in terms of places and spaces Uh and then if  you cannot understand it and it was striking for   me that we always read S and the S is in the text  describing and in this area the southeastern part   of the Medina there were these groups and then  these groups and this is why for for example the   Jewish community was very important and crucial  in protecting the city and when they betrayed   uh the the punishment was so severe etc. But no  one puts a map. And looking at maps actually the   the word of map is not only about the geographical  uh ctographic map. It's also about the social map,   the economic map, you know, but the physical  map. It's very important for you to understand   the sequence of the s and how things uh happen  this way in different circumstances. And then   we have uh also a very important uh note that  actually I I learned from uh from Sardar. Yeah.   It was eye opening when I read uh his analysis  of the history of Mecca. For example, when he   um uh he was drawing my attention or our attention  as readers to the fact that Prophet Muhammad did   not move back to Mecca. Yes. After the fat. Yeah.  And uh if you if you dig into the SA you'll find   that he promised the people of Medina in one  very famous occasion that he will not leave   when they came together the two big tribes  and they said to him now we are supporting   you what if you win and your da'wah spreads etc  uh and then you go back to your people victorious   uh leader and then we are left behind what happens  to us and he said uh this will not happen you are   my people and he started making dua for the ansar  etc and actually he fulfilled the promise when he   went back to Mecca for fat he arranged whatever  was needed to be arranged and then he went back to   Medina and also he was buried in Medina. So uh the  the fact also that Medina never became the center   of the Islamic empire the kilafa moved from Mecca  to uh uh to other places Baghdad and Damascus and   historically speaking and then it was divided  between different dynasties etc. So you can look   at Kufa, you can look at Baghdad, you can look at  the different cities of Andalusia, you can look at   Cairo and how it developed. So the history of the  cities can be actually the window through which   you look at the history of civilization. Recently  uh Dr. Ahmed Audu a very famous uh Turkish scholar   um between brackets politician as well  but I looked more at his scholarship   uh he published few years ago a book on cities uh  the the pivotal cities that played very important   role and it was very striking that he didn't only  focus on the Islamic cities he looked at cities   uh stretching from uh China to uh America uh and  there is always that tension between the image of   the city that many thinkers not only from Islam  uh from Islamic background but across history and   different philosophers how they looked at the  cities as the hub of civility. Yeah. And the   values and what is the not only the political uh  uh uh contract but also the social contract in the   wider sense. the sociological contract between the  people, the habits, the expectations, the norms,   the codes of ethics that are in the city that  actually give the city its own uh nature. Uh   recently also an Egyptian scholar Dr. Ali Abd Ra  uh wrote a very interesting book titled from Mecca   to Las Vegas. It it's a very striking title.  Yeah. And he was critically uh uh very harshly   criticizing the urban development of Mecca.  And he said all these skyscrapers, you know,   and then the big hotels around the cabba, etc.,  it actually stripped the uh the city from its   spiritual nature, right? How did you do that?  Yeah. Because the the the answer would be what   could we do? We wanted to accommodate more and  more uh uh pilgrims, you know. Uh but also this   accommodation of more and more pilgrims had its  economic reasons. So it was not only a spiritual   cause, right? There is also the economy of the  pilgrimage that became a very central economy   uh and and an important income as well. Uh but you  are trying to turn it in order under the slogan of   facilitating uh Hajj because those who made Hajj  quite early uh many decades ago know how hard and   difficult it was and sometimes people would be uh  suffering a lot and sometimes we had casualties uh   during the Hajj etc. So there is a good excuse  to develop and uh uh do the urban development   etc and the development of the haram itself to  expand it and to be able to accommodate more and   more people but but the plan itself had to be  informed by the nature that this is a spiritual   space. Yeah. And uh and in his book on Mecca Dr.  Professor Sardar was mentioning that there were   attempts to guide this urban uh development  in Mecca towards understanding this but   um uh it became a very important project for many  firms and at one point the decision makers wanted   to have international firms participating and  of course they look at the city as any other   city they don't take in mind the spiritual aspect  of it and uh and the city itself the owned by the   meccans away a bit if you if If you drive away  from the center of the the the haram of Mecca,   you'll find that the the neighborhoods are uh  very underdeveloped uh to a great extent. So uh   how do we look at spaces and places and how we  do see through the space and place the history   um place cities have been called in sociology  different names. So sometimes they are called   theater especially in some uh cities uh in modern  cities who people as if they are playing a role uh   they have to be uh u u wearing specific clothing  or wearing clothes that challenge the dominant   uh uh way of life if they want to uh prove that  their their ethnicity or their religion etc. And   then also the city as a palimpest. Palimpyest is  something uh uh either its leather or its paper   upon which uh on which there were so many writings  and then washed away and then a new text was   written and then washed away because previously  we there was no industry for paperi. So they   used different uh um material and then on the same  material would have more than one text on top of   each other. So the city is like that you know you  have the original uh uh um the the origin of the   city how it was written how it was uh built how it  was constructed and then whether the city is a hub   of power or it's a city of religious practices or  it's a city uh of uh of importance like Florence   for example in Europe if you go this is the hub  of the enlightenment the the renaissance etc. So   uh it's not Rome but it's also a place to visit  where you can see the impact of the different   thinkers and the arts and the music and the you  know what happened here and led to change later   in a specific direction. So when we when we see  our cities today they are like a paleist. Yeah.   And if you go to Cairo for example, uh you'll find  the uh ancient Egyptian layer and you'll find the   uh Coptic uh Christian layer and then you'll find  the Islamic layer and then you'll find the modern   layer and the city has so many faces and sometimes  the layers are overlapping and there is a   hybridity. you sit in a place uh you can uh uh you  can realize that this place is out of context you   know it's a it's a place where you can listen to  American music you know jazz or something where   you are actually in a in a local local in in  Cairo that is very much in downtown if you walk   for 10 minutes you'll be sitting and listening  toum the most famous Egyptian singer you know   uh and uh finding people acting in a completely  different way and the city becomes more and more   cosmopolitan but at the same time to which extent  cosmopolitan ism comes with more freedom for   everyone or social justice for all the uh people  who are living in the city so that they feel   the ownership. Yeah. Uh spaces and places make  difference and and how how they are um structured   and uh constructed affects very much our mobility,  our walkability uh in the city and uh our   uh our relations. Not only the urban planning  but also the architecture. Yeah. In a city like   Istanbul or Cairo, you can have old neighborhoods  but actually people know each other. In some   neighborhoods, especially the more disadvantaged  neighborhoods, you cannot go without someone from   the neighborhood. Yeah. Because usually the there  are some legal issues with the government. So,   they are afraid that you're someone coming to  spy on them in order for them to pay fines or   something. So, you have to enter with someone  from the neighborhood. They know each other very   well. In other neighborhoods, people just park  their cars, you know, they go into the buildings.   uh the is new buildings are like skyscrapers and  they there is no notion of neighborhood and hence   the the social texture and the urban texture  also create the moral texture right and and I   wrote maybe the year 2000 or so a small text that  was titled cities against Islam okay that you can   live in a city that every corner of the city is  built on non-Islamic values and the city itself is   against you no matter how you try to practice your  religion and dean it's not allowing you to become   more moral it's how how is the city doing that  yeah and if you are living in a place where there   are no spaces for people to come together you know  you go and vote and that's it thank you very much   you are a very good citizen and then uh the local  uh uh councils are not functional but you have big   parks so you can take your family uh during the  weekend and be go to the park have a barbecue you   know good relations uh with your family members  who come from other places but you don't have a   a neighborhood that sense of neighborhood that we  can come together and decide for our neighborhood   and I was asking around when I found that a  new big building was built in the middle of a   neighborhood that was very traditional in U is for  example uh a very big uh building and then a big   mall uh below it and you can visually realize that  the texture is changing uh the urban texture the   the nature of buildings and design and I asked the  people around did anyone consult you, you know,   did anyone take your opinion? Because this is  going to affect very much the way people gather,   the way people shop, the way people deal with each  other. And of course, it's going to affect the   rent in the flats that are overlooking this area.  And people were ready to sell their uh homes uh   because now they they they can get more money for  the home because it's just facing the mall or this   Badia building or whatever and move outside the  city. Yeah. And some people didn't because they   realize the the the social texture and there is a  deconstruction that happens in the neighborhoods   once you introduce a new design that is not  matching. It's reordered around this modern type   of architecture and then you have the economic  market etc. So to which extent people keep the   relations and then you can for example again  examples in Cairo and examples in Istanbul where   you gentrify street that was an old street where  there were shops you can go to buy something for   your uh home or you know you can find these shops  that have the plumbing uh uh tools and things   etc. So it's just an average street um a shop to  sell coffee, a shop uh to sell meat, you know,   it's like normal street. And then you take that  street and you gentrify it, especially if it's in   a historical area and you turn it into cafes. Once  you turn it into cafes, people come from outside   the neighborhood to spend good time. The nature  of the people in the area changes and then you   have tourists coming as well because it it's put  on the list of tourism, you know. So we are going   to have dinner in this street that is on the other  side of the city for example and and more and more   the price of flats and the rent gets higher either  to sell or to rent and then people who are living   there change. So after 20 years the nature of the  neighborhood completely changes. Yeah. And this   happens for different reasons sometimes economic  and sometimes political. Yeah. In countries where   there are tensions between uh the conservative  forces that prefer to live in neighborhoods where   they have strong uh bond and strong uh social  texture uh is invaded bit by bit by secular uh   uh people uh to make projects and then to change  the face of the neighborhood to become much more   secularized. So there are actually cultural wars  on the space and place in different cities today.   Mhm. Uh, and I'm sure that you can have more  examples about how Muslims live and how they took   some neighborhoods and how they expanded, how they  declined, their presence declined in some areas   because of things that have not nothing to do with  their intentions, but rather with wider plans of   urbanization, gentrification, urban planning,  etc. And we think that the moral person is a   person that can decide for his own ethics and way  of behavior. But actually space and place affects   very much the way we can do so. So do you think  that the modern Islamic world and Muslim world has   seeded uh too much of its spatial imagination  to western paradigms of urban planning? Yes.   Um not only that because it's also economic the  prices of land. Yeah. you know how they how the   market changes the nature of the people who are  living there and how there is internal migration   in the city from one place to the other that  goes unnoticed you know we don't see it as   displacement but it's actually called displacement  in some writings because people are forced to move   if someone knocks at your door and say well your  house falls into the plan of our gentrification or   urban planning of the new new area to to to  develop in and then uh we are going to have   a street here. You have to move. No one takes your  opinion and you have nothing to say. The sovereign   uh uh authorities decided that your your house is  an obstacle and we have to build something here.   And in the case of Egypt, for example, recently we  had these uh bridges and roads built in the center   of the city. But also uh a very historical  area was demolished that we used to call   uh the the the desert of the Mluks. But there are  so many um so many um uh um historical sites uh   and also uh graveyards that are that date back 200  years ago that have so many arts and you know they   are they are a heritage and they were completely  demolished. uh and it was not on the political   agenda and it's only the architects and urban  planners that were very concerned about it that   have more uh awareness about the importance of the  social texture and taking it into consideration in   planning and we lost lot of uh a lot of historical  um um and aesthetic uh spaces because of the   uh traffic uh u sort of development of the city.  M so uh there are so many things related to   um urbanization and space and place that fall  into the rights of uh human rights as well.   But we have over politicized our Islamic agenda  across the different decades because of obvious   reasons Yani but it's also very important for  us to look into the sociological anthropological   texture of our societies and how it's more and  more becoming secularized without secularization   being only political. Yeah. when it comes to  politics, but the spaces are secularized in a   way that would recreate the relation against your  own Islamic ethics. Yeah. So, I haven't understand   that because going back to your example of Mecca,  you you said that uh corporates and international   hotelers came in and and and effectively designed  the the city of Mecca as we see it today. And   it is a bit of a monstrosity. I mean, you know,  you've got these steel buildings around the car   and you don't feel quite right about it. But you  mentioned a very interesting point I felt that you   know there there was a way to build that city  reflect in its spiritual core. How would that   be done? Like if you were planning uh Mecca you  know from scratch like how would you uh what would   Mecca look like and how would it differ to where  it I think that you you have a challenge if you   are a policy maker between space and density and  function. So why accommodate more and more people?   We all want to go. Yeah. Fine. Okay. But the focus  is on Hajj. This is the pillar. True. Okay. And whoever finds a way to go to Hajj. So this is  not a touristic site. Yes. This is a spiritual   site. And to keep its spiritual nature, it should  have specific structures that are respecting the   centrality of the cabba. And if you have uh  this hu huge building, you know, the the the   clock tower, okay, I once was sitting with the um  previous um minister of education in the UK and   we were sitting and discussing something about  heritage etc. and he was at the time he had he   he's not anymore in his position and he went  to um uh play a role in Cambridge. So he was   talking about how they are trying to preserve the  heritage of Cambridge etc. And of course we know   the very famous uh story of Oxford Center for  Islamic Studies. Uh the first uh design for the   new uh um uh buildings of the center were rejected  by the council because they were too Islamic and   then came uh Dr. Abdhakim and he is an Egyptian  architect as well and introduced something that   blends the Oxonian architecture design with the  uh with the Islamic one and and it's what is today   Oxford Center for Islamic Studies. So um it's  it's I showed him the the the picture of Mecca   uh because he was talking about heritage and he  looked at it with the big uh buildings around   and the clock tower etc. And he said to me this is  graphic. Yes. This is like a madeup yi as if they   wanted to blend Mecca with modernity or something.  So I said no to him no this is a picture. Yeah.   I said you're joking. I said to him no I'm not  joking. I said this is horrible. Yeah. I said   to him exactly. I mean this is someone who is not  a Muslim. But he could realize there is something   wrong here. Yeah. You know, you could have  designed differently, accommodated less people,   but the experience that what people have is still  a spiritual experience and then set regulations   to allow people only to have Hajj once and Omrah  once and then you limit the number. But you put   a bet on having more and more people, but you  change the nature of the place. Yeah. And the   spiritual uh nature of it. Yeah. As well. And it's  a challenge. I know it's a challenge. But to which   extent was it taken into consideration from an  Islamic perspective? Were invited to say join us,   we the urban planners to think about the spiritual  and the material in this space when we are trying   to develop it. You know, how can we manage it?  Especially that Mecca is surrounded by mountains.   So it's very difficult to expand. It's not like  enlarging it is is not as easy as it uh as it   seems. So uh but no one is looking at that and I  think that uh there were attempts by some Saudi   uh urban planners and architects to sort of say  you have to slow down a bit and we have to take   into consideration that the enlargement of the of  the haram and more and more people coming needs   also facilities needs housing etc. What happened  also because what you mentioned tourism and hotels   and chains of hotels etc that uh that the class  distinction became very important uh in so now   you have what we call seven stars Hajj. Yeah. Uh  we have Hajj uh tours or what whatever you call it   Hajj uh uh groups going to Hajj from Egypt. Yeah.  uh some of those groups uh Hajj costs a million   and 700,000 Egyptian pounds and this is something  like 30 35,000 uh and this is much the problem is   once you have that level the ceiling goes higher  but also the bottom goes high so the poor cannot   afford anymore to go even if you have small hotels  you know three stars, two stars, one star but at   the end of the day there is a transformation  information of the place to accommodate the   upper class. Some people go to Arafa with golf  cars. This is facility. I have a friend who went   with this 1,700,000 uh trip of Hajj and she said  she is a scholar and she she needed the maham her   brother and her brother is a businessman. She's a  socialist interestingly any but she had to go with   him and she said that I traveled west and east.  She said in the open buffet there was food that   I never saw before. So the nature of Hajj itself  transforms and I still remember when they built   the new the big hotels they some of the those  hotels offer time share. Yeah. So that you can   own time in these uh places and you can sort of  you know the time share system you set when the   dates are for you to go etc. uh and they were  making the marketing uh with this uh moto um   uh have a gaze on the cabba. It's like yeah this  is exactly what uh Dr. Ali Abdov mentioned when   he said from Mecca to Las Vegas. It's it's a bit  harsh you know the title of the book but it's it's   also the reality is very harsh as well. So there  is also the economic aspect and the e economic   aspect not only of producing the space but also of  consuming the space. So less and less poor people   in the Muslim um now can actually afford Hajj  because the rich are taking more and more space   and there is no control over this division. Uh so  and also in our own cities y across time uh even   till recently in big cities in the Muslim world  the neighborhoods the rich neighborhoods were   close to the poor neighborhoods and the poor would  benefit from the rich you know they would work uh   somehow uh with them they would provide them with  services with with the with the food with whatever   uh but now there is that urban segregation that is  taking place and once you have urban segregation   We are not brothers and sisters anymore in the  city. It's the bond becomes much more there   is a stratification. Mhm. And one of the uh the  little stories matter by the way because they they   indicate what the change that is going on and I  remember that uh it was shared on the on Facebook   Yani between Egyptian friends uh a picture of  a of a conversation that was taking place on   the WhatsApp group of a compound and the person  there it was a very very expensive compound uh   and the person was saying uh this is a sensitive  issue but I have to talk about it frankly Uh it's   unacceptable that the drivers of our cars and  the security people are praying next to us in   the mosque. Yes. Subhan Allah. But you can you  can see it coming. If people are segregated,   you can see it coming. You know, the poor become  black, you know, it's like the race. So, so uh so   we we should provide them with a good nice place,  you know, we're we're ready to donate for that,   you know, but that they have their own place to  pray. So actually what is happening is in Hajj is   also the same. The rich have their place, the poor  have their place and little tricks taking place   for the for the rich to go into specific moments  and there is a space booked for them somehow in   the rituals etc. It's subtle but it's there.  So if this is happening uh uh in the case for   example of Egyptian companies that are providing  very expensive Hajj for those who want so and also   it's very limited in time. you don't have to spend  more than 1 week, 9 days or something like because   you have your business to go back to you know  so you're not uh taking the full experience and   um and there is so much going on in our cities  and we and one of the things that are actually   very interesting to remember is that when when  catastrophes happen people think that it's their   own fate they don't think that this is a phenomena  changing in their society you know they think that   something this person coming from the council  knocking on your door and saying your house you   have to leave because we are going to build a road  here think that this is his problem but actually   so many people in other cities face the same  problem and they were not consulted are there any   options to that plan can we discuss it can we talk  about it to which extent did you really compensate   me if you pay that amount of money can I have  actually more because I need to rearrange my   life accordingly and this what one can call urban  activism is not there we only move on the streets   and demonstrate for big causes. But we don't  defend our spaces because we feel that our spaces   are not our own that we are just you know um part  of a wider uh map or um a plan and actually we   have little uh little to say and I think this  is why urban activism is very important. how   the city is divided, how the city is uh is  uh planned, uh the construction in the city,   the gentrification in in specific neighborhoods  etc. It should be a a a wider participatory   process or actually people have a say. But what  we have is the rule of experts. If you protest,   they say experts very important firms made that  plan. Do you understand more than those important   urbanists and architects? Yeah. you're just a  citizen, a lay person. So, you have to give in.   And uh uh I don't know about statistics from other  countries, but one of the statistics that I can   give from the Egyptian scene is that in the last  10 years, 2.9 million have been displaced because   of urban planning. So, uh this is a number  and you're talking about a huge number. It's   uh uh so uh how do you see our spaces and places  and the right of people to place and space and how   this right to place and space is Islamic from  the neighborhood where gentrification or urban   planning is taking place to because it's it's the  macro level of displacement and here of course   because it's global war and violence against the  civilians is used and uh and the international   system is incapable of protecting those people  and sometimes even blaming the victims you know   uh and those who wanted to protect those victims  and defend them. Uh there is a link uh if we look   at the space and place and the production and  consumption and violation and the herbicide that   is taking place in cities without considering it  to be herbicide. Yeah, it's a genocide of places   and spaces and communities but you look at it  you you put on it the label of development.   But people are displaced as well, right?  And the texture is ruptured. So this is a   very western centric view of what development  means and progress is. And and that's quite   quite radically different to maybe the way we  because the calculation is economic, right?   Yeah. Now those people live if you put the map  and and there are two categories of people that   use maps. Urbanists and military. The military,  right? You know, they look at maps, but they don't   see the walking people, the little woman who is  the woman who is living in this little place and   cooking food for her children so that they find  lunch when they come back from school. I mean,   they look at the building and say, "What is this  neighborhood?" Oh, its position is very strategic,   you know. And who's living there? Lower class. No,  no, no. It's okay. This was old time, you know,   when this was the margin of the city. Now, this  is the center of the city. You have to move this   community to another place. we will build them  good nice new uh neighborhoods but they have   to move from here and sometimes the governments  actually gives the people new buildings for good   uh uh with good conditions you know it's like you  can own it over 30 years you can pay the mortgage   it will be facilitated etc but do you know how  much how much this costs and for how much it   will be sold the new neighborhood that is being  developed billions and you are paying them pennies   so who looks at that and says no those people  should not move. Yeah, sadly in many of our Muslim   communities in Muslim cities, majority Muslim  cities, not other cities, uh is away from that.   The and the do not make fatwas about that, right?  They can make statements about they can make   statements about the war in Yemen, the the famine  in uh in u in Sudan. But there is little written   about fatwas to stop the taking of the property  of people because of urban development due to   capitalist calculation of economy. It's not a  topic that people are interested in. And sometimes   when you go back to our Islamic heritage, you  find a lot of fatwas that were actually addressing   issues of Omran, issues of urban planning.  Really? Of course. Yeah. We have a lot such as   what sort of issues were they would how the city  was actually planned, the rights of people, how to   uh divide the the right to the road, the right to  the areas that are common common areas. You know,   a lot has been written by Fuka about that.  It came in fatwas. It came also in books   uh not only in fatwa addressing a specific dispute  between two people and then setting a rule that   would continue in the madhab for example or in the  f regarding this and that but seeing the city as   like a platform for a Muslim community and you  could not even if it's your property add another   uh uh level add another floor if it uh overlooks  the yard of your neighbor you can't say this is   my property if I even if I build it to the sky.  It's none of your business. No, it's our business   because it will affect your neighbor because you  can see his yard where actually the privacy of his   family is. So, you can't actually go higher or if  you build like a building, the the window should   not be facing the window. M you uh design it in  a way that the window is facing a wall so that   you don't open a window and your neighbor opens a  window and then his privacy because there is that   sense of the privacy the sense of the uh Muslim  adab you know the the spaces between the different   uh uh members of the family women and children  and men etc. But now you go into uh small flats   where actually the kitchen is in the uh in the  living room. It's American kitchen they call it.   And there is like either you're going to serve  your uh guests or your wife has to do the effort   and sometimes in some families they don't feel  comfortable about that. But this is what you can   afford because you can only afford oneplus 1 and  there is an American kitchen in the living room.   Right? The design itself does not allow in the  building itself the flow of the air which was   written in many of the books of uh architecture  uh uh in classic texts for example. So we have   a heritage we're not aware of and we focus more  on the political and I think that they are very   much interwoven. If we lose the social and if we  lose the social and uh urban fabric that allows   the moral to be um uh to be practiced in everyday  life, we will definitely lose the battle of the   pulit. And are we losing that battle do you  think in the Muslim world? Are we too closely   aligned now to capitalism, to western standards  of of architecture, of urban development? I mean,   we're in Istanbul at the moment and um you know,  I think I think it's fair to say that Istanbul   looks like any other city now around the world.  Yes, it's punctuated with some really amazing   mosques that that date back hundreds and hundreds  of years, but generally speaking, the city now   looks very similar to London, looks very similar  to New York. come in. Are we losing that fight? Do   you think you would lose it if you're not aware?  Right. Because the there is a standardization.   Where do our uh children go to study architecture  and urban planning? Yeah. Uh to be influential in   the governments or in the big businesses etc. They  go to the west and this is what they study. the   function, the economic aspect, the moral aspect  is not very much into the the calculations and   also the empowerment of people that they are  taught and educated about the impact of place   and space on their own character. It's not only  that if you wish you can become ethical. No,   actually there are obstacles you know I want to  reach out to my neighbors but I live in a building   not me but I'm giving an example. Someone lives in  a building where actually you have 30 floors and   more and more people are moving to these areas.  Yi and more and less and less people are living   in the the the old areas. Uh especially the young  people. Um if I give example with London Yi uh   Canary Warf was starting to emerge when I was in  London in the 1990s for example and now you have   uh many neighborhoods where actually people live  in isolated units. Yeah. So you just go back home   and you don't know anything about your neighbors  and there is a company taking care of the building   and you just pay a monthly amount but you don't  come together to discuss a problem. There is a an   expert there is a a company that is taking taking  care of the problems etc. And uh people don't   cross the the boundaries or the borders of race  faith you know to join because they are facing   a problem together and they want to solve it. uh  less and less Muslim countries I know have this uh   uh cooperative system of building together that I  found for for example in the Nordic countries in   Sweden in Norway people come together they build  in a cooperative way and live together and once   you come together you buy the land together you  decide for the design together it creates a bond   and some some practices are actually more Islamic  in in at at the core than some of the uh some of   the examples that we see in the Muslim world where  Muslims practice faith but actually the relations   and the the the way of constructing their material  environment is very unislamic and what's the   reason for that I mean I was uh recently reading I  think it was an economist there was a piece about   Jeda and Jeda a large part of it maybe a third  even more has been demolished yes uh repossessed   you could see it if you go and and visit I mean  full areas have been demolished demolished and   they've been replaced with skyscrapers like why  why is this uh you know why is there reverse   sort of because of the def definition of progress  explain that yeah yeah you want to say I'm doing a   lot of progress in the country see I went once to  a gulf country and uh I don't have to uh mention   the name it will be understood from the context  and uh the the ruler of that city very famous city   said uh alhamdulillah we managed to uh um make  the dream of Kaldun come true uh by having this   uh Omran and I looked at him and I just said  yeah and he doesn't realize difference between   and Omran is a building Omran is something else  what's Omran is the ethical and moral foundation   and religious foundation of a specific mode of  urbanization right so Almran Islami is how you   structure and build a city where actually the Isl  Islamic norms are dominant and where people can   live in the spaces and places Islamically where  you actually have the mosque not necessarily in   the center by the way but the mosque is serving  the community but it also has a place for some   other site services in the case of Istanbul every  mosque has got a hamam next to it you know and   next to it is usually a madrasa as well so you  have these complexes you have and you have all   these colleges around but also a big building that  was dar to serve food for the poor for example   etc. where you were serving the person. There is  a small window in the side of the kitchen where   you can actually serve the the soup but you don't  see the face of the person taking the soup from   you. Maybe he's your neighbor and he doesn't want  preserve the dignity etc. So this understanding of   the functions of a society and how the buildings  are reflecting it and allowing people to practice   their life in a dignified manner next to each  other and caring for each other. If the space   expands, you split it so that the units become  in a size where people can do so. And this is   something that not only in Islamic heritage but  also in in western heritage we find Aristo for   example said that uh a city should not be more  than 40,000 people because after that you lose   the contact with the others. You don't know who  this person is and uh and even if you want to   take the moral and apply it in imagining the  material. Prophet Muhammad for example said to the person whom you meet on the street whether  you know him or not I can't do that in New York   I can't do that in London I can't do that in  Cairo anymore people will think you're stupid or   something crazy you know if you walk around and  sayamlaykum salamkum so the the we can have big   entities but you have to divide them in a way that  would create this ability of communities to emerge   and people to actually have the right to the  space and place and help each other become better   uh human beings but uh people are living  this individualistic life and it's becoming   more and more the way of life many Muslims are  experiencing in big cities. So are we saying that   skyscrapers in particular and and these sort  of uh projects of gated communities and and   um uh having very exclusive places for the rich  and and it's you know far away from everyone   else the these are intrinsically unislamic when we  think about is that what we're saying yes I think   so really yes that's interesting because of course  yeah as you said it isolates you and that you will   end up like that man saying we don't want the  those even who are serving us in the community in   in the gated community to actually uh pray with  us, right? Yeah. The prayer itself becomes class   oriented. Wow. Because their distance, you know,  he's not like me. I'm rich. You know how much I   paid for this place and now this poor guy is just  standing in the mosque next to me. It's like from   his perspective, it doesn't make any sense.  You know, Islam for him is that I pay my my   uh my zakat and I go for this million and 700,000  Egyptian pounds Hajj and fine. and I'm a very good   practicing Muslim. I don't blame him because no  one explained to him that this is wrong actually   you know uh they don't want to uh quote unquote  sit with the smelly people you know it's like   the whole point is that you sit with the smelly  people in h that you you see the person who's   coming from Nigeria and the person who's coming  from Burma and the person who's coming from South   Africa and maybe Latin America and people have  different habits and you have to have subur and   you have to stay away from argumentation and you  have to tame yourself and you have to stand next   to a very poor person who came via a very tough  road you know and the route was very long for him   to stand next to you. I remember I was in Omrah  and then this very very he looked very old Indian   uh man maybe 80 or something. He was very slim,  very, you know, his bones, you can see his bone.   And it seems that I was standing on his way. I  was moving for the taw, but yan, it seems that I   was a bit slow. And he simply pushed me aside.  Yeah. I jumped one meter, you know. It's like   he pushed me like this. Some people are very  old but very strong, you know. And I looked at   what's the matter, you know. And he looked at me  angrily and then he kept doing his taw, you know.   I looked at him and said, "This poor guy came all  the way probably from India or from Bangladesh or   something and he wants to finish his Omrah before  he passes away." This is his mentality, you know.   And he waited for long and he paid a lot. Get out  of my way, you know. This is his thinking. So I   just was at the beginning I was like, "What?" And  then I said, "Okay, okay, Tama." Alhamdulillah.   Okay, you're very kind. This is the experience  that you have to go through. Not sit in sterilized   spaces and uh posh hotels and as if you are going  to Monaco. Uh is this too communist or socialist   or Marxist or whatever? No, it's just you have to  have a a limit. You have to have a boundary. You   know, people can enjoy more facilities if they  can afford it. You can't deny people because we   believe in communities. There are the rich and the  poor. But don't push the ceiling of the luxury to   the extent that the poor can't afford the minimum  level of uh uh going to Hajj and and also you have   to see those people around you. You can't just  separate and segregate like this. So people go   to Hajj in different routes almost the are made  for people to mix and to see each other. Yeah.   Not to be served as classes. A couple of years  ago I was at a conference where you presented.   It was a different topic but you uh in between  you mentioned something about the organization   of the conference was an Islamic conference  and you said why are we having this conference   in the center of a city um you know does that  really reflect our Islamic ethos and then you   propose you know that the conference should take  place in the countryside and we should have walks   and we should have greenery around us and yeah  explain that to me like you know because in a   sense you were showing there was a a disconnect  between the heavy Islamic topics that were being   uh discussed and the place within which those  topics were discussed like explain your the   thinking there. Cities historically speaking are  setting boundaries between humans and nature.   You build a city, you build a wall to protect  the community and this is something that has   to do with historical development. The paradox is  it's essentially necessary right for you to build   dynasties and civilization quote unquote and this  is what everyone says in philosophy from the Greek   philosophy to Kaldun to alabi to whoever you name  but the paradox is once you separate yourself from   the nature to build the civilization you start the  start the the clock starts ticking because this is   the beginning of rise and fall of civilizations  and once you separate yourself from nature you   keep losing a connection and you are behind the  walls. So interestingly now in our postmodern   times people pay a lot of money to go for safari  to go back to nature. Yeah. The generation of my   father was the generation that moved from  the he was born 1920 for example. He was   urban. He was born into the city but the his  generation many of them were born in in rural   areas and they moved to the city for education  and social mobility etc. And they wanted to stay   in the city because it's a development  that they were told is more progressive.   My generation and my children's generation the  dream is to retire in countryside. Yes. So it's   like the city is attracting you but you realize  people become disenchanted. Now I end up in the   city alone. My children go to different places in  the world because of the global economy. I don't   want to stay in the middle of my uh sort of cement  uh building. I want if I'm going to end up alone,   let me end up alone in in the nature. Yeah, in  a small uh town where people are still keeping   the social habits and where I can have like  chitchats with different friends around and   neighbors and then I can go for a walk and I  can see the greenery etc. So the the paradox   of the human history is that we have to establish  cities where actually services are provided bigger   number wealth etc. But once you do that, you lose  the connection with the nature. And uh I think   that if we are thinking about the future for our  Islamic cities, they should be open to uh nature   and also schooling should be open to nature. Yeah.  The fact that we are locking the kids for 12 years   in their lives in schools that have walls that  have uh classes with density and a small window   and then electricity and as if you are having  like uh chicks in this uh plant where you have   a chicken bringing up chicken or breeding chicken.  um needs this connection with the universe, this   connection with the world around you, uh seeing  the plants, seeing the mountains. Uh so why are we   holding our conferences in hotels? Yeah. And the  notion of the hotel itself is a very Yeah. We had   the Han the Han you know where people can eat and  but also it's in the middle of the market in the   bazars you know and there was a different texture  where also you are hospitalized I'm sorry you are   you receive the hospitality of the people around  you can go to the mosque uh first place you go to   when you go to a new city you go to the mosque and  there is that description of the sufi tarikas they   were not only uh in in specific cities they  were crossing the Muslim um so you you go to   a city and you ask for the nakshaba te or for  the maawi te and and once you go there they will   receive you or you go to the mosque and someone  next to you realizes you are a stranger you come   to my home you stay with me at least for 3 days  this is your right as a Muslim etc so the texture   of the society is different and it's open to the  nature around in most of the time so I think that   we have to have a different imagination about two  things uh what is uh success and what is happiness   And I think that part of the definition of  success of our modern times is property that   you have more and more property. It doesn't mean  that property is not important. But the fact that   you're successful by having property and by living  in a separate uh place in a gated community where   only the poor uh where only the rich live and  the poor cannot enter and you have the gates   and the security and the cameras and the surveys  and everything. And happiness is that this is   happiness. This is the ultimate goal that I should  look up to if I am a young person and I want to   establish my career to reach that point when I  can provide my family with such luxurious way   of life. This is not actually what we are looking  for. How do we want to build our schools just like   any other school but with the uh with the u sort  of Islamic name on the wall or our schools are   different. They have fountains in the middle. You  listen to the sound of water. The classrooms have   big windows so that you can see nature around you.  It's surrounded. It's at the edge of the city. Uh   and then there are forests around where children  are taken in the breaks to explore nature around   etc. Maybe have a deer one day jumping into your  uh uh school and then everyone is looking at that   creature. Uh so um how do we imagine the good  life? Yeah. And I think that this is the the   core problem that we are having today. What is  a good life? And how we defi how we can define   it. Yeah. Are we are we more inclined to is our  fra more in our human nature does it incline us   to settle in a single place or are we more  inclined to be nomadic in our and this is   a big issue now in sociology and anthropology. Uh  it's not only about the movement, it's also about   the mentality. Right. There is a very nice book  titled the tribal imagination. Yeah. And it was   written by a professor in Harvard and he said and  he himself is the son of modernity and he is the   person who likes individualization etc. But he  said from my research I found out that actually   humans don't think in individual way. Yeah we all  share a tribal imagination. You always have these   calculations. I have this offer in Japan but my  mother lives in Pakistan and my brother lives   in Cairo and the sister in London. how how am I  going to sort of travel and leave my mother? how   can we organize together that someone takes off  my care of my uh the elderly in the family and   and then you might end up refusing you might end  up declining simply because and people would say   are you crazy this is the your way to become a CEO  you know but you have different priorities what do   I want from life etc so people have to think about  this their own definition of a good life and what   it means it doesn't definitely mean that I would  die alone yeah Yeah, we are by nature both nomadic   but we need to settle. And Allah described in  the Quran the creation of the human. He said Allahh created you like plants. You have to  have roots. And if you move, you have to move   with your roots. You go to a different soil but  you can't cut the roots and expect that when you   move to the new soil and give be given some water  that the roots would grow necessarily that you   might die die in terms as as a plant you know and  just stay there like something on the surface. So   though people travel and we have communities that  have three four generations outside their country   of origin but what is so great especially the  Pakistanis and Indians and Bangladeshes etc that   they care very much for bringing their children  to the roots. The Palestinians for example they   still teach their children they eat the same food  they sing the songs they wear the same uh things   they they keep the memories and the pictures  of the uh grandfathers they they have a family   archive. You know it's important to root yourself  in a community and then if you want to change the   habits of the community this is a good struggle  as well. You know you don't have to live like your   grandfather and you don't have to encapsulate your  identity in one uh in one uh part but uh but you   have to have roots. You have to think of yourself  as a person who belongs and being is important.   this being in philosophy, you know, we're not  only as we are born, we become all the time   different things and we change fine, but you also  have to have some constant elements in your life   that ident through which you identify who you are  and I think that it has to do with the religion   and culture because also in the world of Islam,  we are different. We have different cultures.   I'm Egyptian. You come from Indian background. If  you go to Indonesia, people act in their everyday   life a bit differently. What is going to unite us  sadly is not Islam. What is going to unite us is   the way of life of urban life. And we have to be  aware that it's very standardized and it cuts the   relations with the localities and the vernacular  uh in a way and we have to think of preserving   that as part of preserving the texture in which a  good community can grow. Yeah. And uh there is a   challenge urbanization is a challenge. Yeah. Um  as we wrap up I want to reflect on Gaza. I mean   um you know it's horrific what has happened to  to Gaza and and the place has been destroyed   and majority of its buildings are now rubble and  various there's conversation about two versions   of Gaza. You've got the Trump Riviera Gaza  right which again will look very much like   Dubai or one of these sort of Gulf states. Um uh  but there's very little discussion obviously so   because with the the people of Gaza are still  facing this horrific reality but there's very   little discussion about what Gaza would look like  like if we had a situation where we were able   to claim Gaza back and inshallah you know u this  would not be in in any distant future and the the   Muslims of Gaza were able to to live and flourish  in that in that place. What would it look like   spiritually? What would it look like from an urban  perspective that you would satisfy, you know,   this conversation we've had today uh um uh satisfy  the conditions of the type of communities we want   to establish. Sometimes the the division of big  families is a target, right? So if you suggest of   course put aside the Trump Riviera thing here,  which is possible by the way, they might just   do it. But if you are planning for the people  if they want to come go back, if they they have   the right to go back, the right of return to  their land as well, uh then you have to take   into consideration the social texture of Gaza.  People have big families. Yeah. The plans that   I saw recently are offering big buildings. You  know, these like 60s type buildings that it's the   building is like a long building, not skyscraper,  but long building. And then you have two plus one   flats. One plus one flats. 1 plus one flats in  Gaza. No. Seriously. Yeah. Where people have   usually average of six to eight children. Through  that planning you are doing actually family uh   control really in the Yeah. Because if people live  there is no way that they can have more children,   you know. So you force by the structure a way  of life. I have a flat of 2 plus one and I am   a person who survived. I have only one member  of my family living with me and then how if I   if it's my mother if if it's my father and I need  to marry and this is what I have I can get a wife   and my father can live with me or my mother but  yeah practically speaking I can only have one   child and there will be a decline in the number of  people in the coming three 30 years. Yeah. So you   are if you if you save them now you are basically  killing them in a way that is very subtle for the   coming 30 30 years of the future and the number of  the people of Gaza will decline and the lifestyle   will be different. Look at how China for example  completely different example controlled birth by   imposing this policy of only one child and it led  to the killing of girls. Yeah. Yeah. There was a   a a genocide for girl female babies because they  want boys and it it it went under the carpet you   know that so many girls when they were born they  were killed because they want they have only one   chance. Yes. And then the the the the structure  of the family became very uh u u vertical. Yes. If   you have one child in one generation there are no  cousins. It's just vertical. It's not horizontal.   So the society itself completely changed within  30 years by this policy. So either by controlling   birth or by limiting the space that people have  for their homes. Uh there is there is a there must   be a way to design for the people of Gaza to keep  the way of life people have having many children   in the families. But at the same time the land of  Gaza is very limited. This is a challenge for the   urban planners. How can we keep this society as  it is serving its own causes and having its own   practices and without and and facing the challenge  of the small because it's the most dense place in   the world by the way at one point before the  genocide it was very dense. How are we going   to solve this problem? This is a challenge for the  for the for the Muslim architects and urbanists,   you know, but it's not by building buildings  that are basically changing and transforming   the nature of the society and hence its ability  to defend itself. So the the spatial and the the   place and the architecture and the urban are  challenges for our Muslim way of life that   we need to discuss. There is no single answer for  the question but at least it should be put on the   uh agenda of how do we live and what are what is  our material environment and how it's affecting   us as Muslims. Dr. Heakar, thank you so much. I  found that a fascinating conversation. Thank you   so much for your time. Thank you very much  for hosting me and uh I wish your project   of the thinking Muslim all the luck because  all Muslims should be thinking. Thank you.

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