Kickstarter Fulfillment, Tariffs, and RPG Design with Watt

[00:00:00]Hello and welcome to the Weekly Scroll podcast. My name is Ryan and joining me once again after too long away is Watt.

[00:00:07]How are you doing today, Watt?

[00:00:08]>> Doing great. Glad to be here after a decent absence.

[00:00:12]>> Yeah, it's been it has been just a you know what I should do is go back and look at how long it's been. I'm not going to, but at some point um I will and then I'll I'll message you and say how long it's been. But you you were saying before stream at one point you were the most uh guested guest we had on the show and now we're gonna >> five or six times or something like that. Yeah, we're going to bring it back. We're starting 2026 is the year of Watt. Um we'll be on the show more, but um but yeah, so in in the in the it has been a lot of stuff has happened in games in the world since you've been on.

[00:00:42]Um but one thing that did happen was was these beauties right here.

[00:00:49]>> They arrived. For those in podcast land, you're missing out. Uh if you didn't get the beautiful life and death boxes from Plat Empress, my gosh. Um, you know, as as again Watt and I were talking before we started and the foiling on the green box is stunning and it's got the nice skull and the mushrooms coming out of it.

[00:01:12]There's going to be a reprint of that.

[00:01:14]Um, I don't know how much retail it's going to be pretty limited, but um, just the extras from the Kickstarter campaign, but I am going to be doing a reprint of that box because folks have been pawing at it already for good reason. But yeah.

[00:01:29]>> Yeah. Well, I mean, once you get them in and they're there's I mean, boxes are boxes, right? These are nice, though.

[00:01:34]But let's Okay, so let's let's wind back a little bit. So, one of the last times you were on, we did talk about this this coming out. So, what is what I just held up? What exactly what are the boxes that we're talking about for the uninitiated that might know uh not know what's going on?

[00:01:50]>> Yeah. So, um, Cloud Empress Life and Death is the most recent release of the Cloud Empress line of products. It's a panic engine game, which is the, um, name for the mothership rule set in a setting that is not a sci-fi horror setting. Um, Cloud is, I think, the second or one of the first, um, panic engine games. It was kickstarted, I think, in April 2024. Um, so after some delays that we could talk about, um, well-intentioned delays, um, it's coming out now. And so folks are getting this box set that comes with a hardcover version of the previously Zen format rule book and Land of Cicas, which is a hex crawl uh, setting book. Um, but then we also did two new hardcover expansions that um, grow the hex map even further into a desolate apocalypse called Land of the Dead and a vibrant sort of fungal um, indigenous community in the north um, called Land of the Living.

[00:02:56]>> I I got to say I um am an edge lord piece of [ __ ] So from day one, from the second I heard about it, I was like, I cannot wait for death to come out. this is the land I want to play in. This is the world I want to be in. Um all the skulls and mushrooms and everything.

[00:03:10]It's absolutely stunning. Um but yeah, so so the the new expansion came out. It came with the boxes. As you said, there were some slight delays um and all of that. So tell me, I mean, one of the cool things that we've done on this show that I really enjoyed having you on a guest for is with um some of the early stuff you did. talked like before it all happened and then we got to do like a breakdown of after it all happened. Um and then we also did I think we did a writing seminar as well too which was awesome.

[00:03:44]>> Yeah, that probably was um >> a year from now. Yeah, it was probably February, January, February for the the Cloud Empress um uh game jam in the >> Yeah, I think that was actually might have been one of the very first episodes of last year. So, it might have literally been in the beginning of the year cuz I was just looking at this um previously cuz uh we had David Hoskins on Racing Lane. He was one of our I think our first guest um after I think the special that we had. So, you literally were our first episode last year, the very first episode after the 2024 year interview. So, it was one year ago as of like the beginning of January.

[00:04:16]So, less time actually than I thought. A year a year goes by. Um, but I was saying something and then I and then I started looking at the podcast thing.

[00:04:26]But um, oh, one of one of honestly one of my favorite episodes that I've done here on the show was talking with you and getting the post Kickstarter stuff because you are so diligent and um, just kind of stuff oriented with everything that you did. I feel like you did such an amazing job of like talking through the breakdowns and the good things and the bad things and and keeping it all together and still putting out such an incredible project.

[00:04:51]Um, so after this most recent one, how how did it go? How how did things how did things go with life and death?

[00:05:00]>> I think people are happy. I mean, ultimately uh that's what's most important. Um, I did a survey. I tried to do surveys after the campaign and something like it's like 80 90% of people that responded to the survey, even higher, 95 98% kind of stuff. And I'll I'll be sharing some of that um in the Kickstarter updates in future campaigns. But people seem to be really happy with the product. They seem like the delays felt reasonable. And ultimately, I think one of the components of crowdfunding that I pride myself on is really high marks for the communication along the way and making sure that people who are backing these projects and making these a reality feel like they are um taken care of and their money and their time is rewarded for their support.

[00:05:54]>> Yeah. I mean, so I've backed too many. I'll say the number. I rarely do. I'm pushing 800 uh Kickstarters and well over 800 total crowdfunds. And I will say um that's probably the biggest thing is I don't care if a project is four years late. If through the entire process if you say, "Hey, I'm going to update you every two months, every 3 months, every four months," and you actually do. I'm like, "Cool. I'll get it when I get it.

[00:06:23]That's fine." Like it's the people that basically go, "Okay, I'm going to update you every month." and three minutes in go, I'm not doing this anymore. You'll get it when you get it. And then you don't hear anything. And then they get mad when you ask for an update or there's like radio silence and then every comment on the Kickstarter page is, "Is this dead yet? Is this dead now?

[00:06:39]Is this dead now?" Because when I >> Where's my You said >> you said you were going to do this update in 3 weeks ago and it's not here.

[00:06:46]>> And that's just human nature is like human beings can handle a lot um if they know what to expect. Um, and it's the not knowing that I think drives most people crazy. Um, so if I think a lot more people are like me, they're happy to wait if you tell me why I'm waiting. Um, or what's going on versus hearing just getting absolutely radio silence. And you and you are great about that. I would get emails constantly like there was never a time where I was like, damn, what's going on? Because I always kind of knew like I I I heard in the last one, what's going on? So, I think you're you're really good about that. I mean, I think honestly like your your Kickstarters are some of the best I've backed in that regard where I feel like the products are incredible. Uh, your communication is incredible. The Kickstarters are run really, really well. And then when you get it, you're just happy to have it because the number of projects I get where I'll get it and literally just be like and like just chuck it in a drawer or something because at this point I don't care because the person like >> you know I'm just I don't care about the project anymore because it took too long or the person was like rude about something or this or that or just turned me off in some way. I have probably have two three boxes full of projects that I just got and don't care anymore because of the way it was run afterwards. Um and that's just never been a thing that you know I think anyone could really say about yours.

[00:08:05]>> Yeah. And and I think I really try to think about that crowdfunding experience as potentially a really positive experience.

[00:08:14]As a creator, it's really important to think what is the perception of crowdfunding at this point and how can I alleviate some of those challenges. I mean, I back a lot of projects on Kickstarter and Backer Kit as well. And so, I've been in those projects where people disappear or people creators aren't seeming to uh hold themselves accountable to a communication schedule that they've sort of set themselves uh to, but we create as humans pretty uh we attach those emotions from the campaign to the products that we receive like you're talking about. And so, um, even if if you if you're a fan of a certain author or something and they treat you like a they're a jerk when you see them in person, it's like all of the media changes, right? Oh, I love this butt. I had this really horrible experience with this person and now I think about it a little differently. And so thinking about all of those touch points, especially too as we're finishing up fulfillment, um if somebody loses their package or something slightly damaged, it's so important to me to make those orders right because this is going to be the forever impression of me um if I if I do this incorrectly and it's maybe only a couple dollars or you know $20 on my end to make something right, whereas this is going to create such a big impression for this person if they're not they wait all this time and their their package is messed up and I I sort of act cheap about it.

[00:09:47]Um to answer your question earlier though in more detail the I think the three big sort of delays were one around the the writing process. I I I thought having two writers on one of the books was going to speed stuff up, but the collaboration actually took a lot more time and and I think the book came out better for it. But um it's two really large books. I think the other piece was me thinking, oh well, I did the rule book in Land of Cicas. I did two books last time. I'm going to be essentially doing maybe a book and a half on this.

[00:10:22]But the setting books are a lot more complicated and and uh complex. The other piece was I sort of I I don't exactly remember where it started, but I spent a lot of time working on Land of the Dead has a time heist in it or where you go into the past, but it's a a memory of the past. And so getting that to be understandable and clear and playable um took a lot of time. And I'm not sure I was entirely successful, but it was my it's this big sprawling kind of thing that you can do in one part of the game and and that was difficult. The other piece was I ran into a ton of problems with Affinity. Um Affinity is Adobe's major competitor in the like layout um area.

[00:11:13]So files weren't exporting at the right DPI and images were not showing up because of overlay on on multiple there was images were just like not appearing when I would do these exports and it was this known issue that was existed for like six to eight months that no one was addressing and so um the actual pre-production process with um Panda the game manufacturer took like two to three times the length that I thought it would. And then once you start to get into the fall, we had to push some stuff back because of holiday shipping sir charges. So if you start to ship out games in November, prices can increase like 20 to 30% if not more. And so um the decision was made to wait until January to to start to do fulfillment because it would reduce those those shipping charges which were already um had increased because of the the length of the campaign. But then also I think there was an another 10% tariff that we got hit by um that was unanticipated. Could have been a lot worse. But um so I think those were the the primary delays with the project and ultimately like many Kickstarter campaigns biting off maybe more than I could chew, but um it's done. It's here.

[00:12:31]>> Yeah, it exists. It's in people's hands.

[00:12:34]Um the tariffs though, I mean so the boxes were made in China, right? And how I mean how was the kind of I guess the anxiety with everything because you know when Trump started talking about the taxes the tariffs and then they were here then they weren't then there new ones and there's not and then someone would say something in some countries so there'd be 100% tariff and then there wasn't like how did you just try to deal with it you know when eventually you had to start you know putting it out or or was that something that was kind of a a shadow the entire time? Well, there were I think the real challenge for publishers that is maybe talked about um is the uncertainty of it all which you're mentioning but the uncertainty goes down to an individual customs agent can declare your goods. you you pick a harmonization code for your items and then the custom agent I believe if they inspect it or as it's coming in can agree or disagree or and then apply tariffs based on that harmonization code. So one of the big things I know happened in the mothership um fulfillment was board games and games have a much higher tariff cost than books um which you see across a lot of shipping areas and those things. So, one of the big concerns I had was whether we're in this sort of ambiguous zone and that they are a box set and there is some non-book materials inside. It's like a pad of paper and a map and some pamphlets and things. So, that was a big concern is is even if I understand what's going on with the tariff, which one would be applied to the items was was uncertain.

[00:14:18]at some points it was I think like 145% tariffs from China. Um I think one of the realizations I came to during the process was this this total acceptance that my company might not survive. And I was posting that in Kickstarter updates as just hey this might be the end of us.

[00:14:41]um uh and this detachment from the outcome that sort of had to happen in that I could do my best. I could try my best and something might happen um that totally destroys the fulfillment of this game, which is normally I mean you hear these horror stories and I was holding my breath until people started getting the games because sometimes you hear they open it up and everyone's full of mold.

[00:15:11]Oh no. Um, so no no horror stories and and we weren't the tariffs were what we anticipated and shipping prices were what we anticipated but a lot of it is sort of holding your breath and ultimately um one making a decision at a certain point there was some tariff talks um I mean it seemed to be happening every 3 months or so with China and so eventually just we shipped it and you just it's on the ocean for a month or two and you're just like, well, what's I don't know what's going to happen when it hits. I did hear about some options to put materials into warehouses that weren't that that were pre-custom warehouses or something that you could maybe do. So, that was my sort of back pocket, like if we're really in trouble.

[00:16:01]I heard about some people on the news like keeping stuff in warehouses and and then importing it at a later date. So I just sort of thought, you know, day at a time kind of thing and just but it was a lot of stress and and unnecessarily so.

[00:16:18]>> Yeah. Unnecessarily as in like in the end it wasn't as bad as it could have been.

[00:16:24]>> Um, American businesses should not be subjected to this type of um uncertainty and chaos. It doesn't particularly benefit anyone. and and now we're seeing that it was unconstitutional and that people might be getting these refunds and it it's such an odd situation and that some people with their bath mats or whatever product games maybe coming in would get these 145% charges that they did have to pay and maybe they went out of business, right?

[00:16:55]And that was the outcome because they were importing their goods at this one week before the negotiations had fully solidified is my understanding. And so, um, the cruelty and the the uncertainty and the the chance of it all is just really, um, you I I you can't plan for that, right?

[00:17:16]And so, one of the things that is is also challenging is rust rings, which we'll talk more about, is also going to be printed in China. And it's sort of like just trusting that things will go the way they go. And also, like we mentioned with the crowdfunding process, really communicating things early and saying, "Hey, if you know, if tariffs happen, this is how we're going to deal with them and here's how much I think I'll be able to eat from the product, but I may have to pass on or I will have to pass on this much to consumers because it's shipping rated cost, those kinds of things." Um, just communicating early and often about them. We had a lot of sympathy though. I think the the word had gone out and people were pretty outraged um in our hobby spaces around it and so there was a lot of sympathy and and volunteering to to pay or or not have me completely own that cost.

[00:18:08]>> Yeah. And in the end like how I mean I'm not asking how much like you made or how much whatever but like was it like as bad as you thought? Was it about what it was or is everything like you're good?

[00:18:21]like it ended up being like okay or >> um I think for a variety of factors um my coffers are really empty right now.

[00:18:35]So we're going into rust wings and hoping the project does well.

[00:18:40]I I've been sort of thinking a lot about um what it means to be in this industry.

[00:18:46]I think last year I probably made 20,000 from like as a personal salary for maybe an hour to three hours of work every day. So that the numbers on that I don't think are I don't know um how those numbers sound, but it's not a very lucrative um career choice. And I have a full-time job on top of this that that helps But my my wife's going back to work and so that'll create some I was sort of the the primary um bread winner of the family for my my wife and my child. And so our financial situation is going to be changing in the future. And I think that will create some freedom for me to maybe um publish less frequently and less and rely on that less a little bit which which feels exciting. But um I really empathize with people that try to make this their livelihood. It's it's it's very very difficult to do.

[00:19:56]Yeah. I you know and it and I understand that you know we that's one thing about this like the podcast we've done forever is we're monetized forever unmonetized forever because I didn't ever want to bring money into it for that kind of reason. like at what point do you then start to rely on it and if it um you know falls out from underneath you where are you kind of thing but also um you can't really like I can understand people want to not grind themselves to death in an economy that is not designed for any of us to sustain you know a living you know a lot of us are millennials and elder millennials that were promised a lifestyle that we're we're never really going to have um so you know being able to try to remove yourself from the system and do the things you want to do and being should be able to support yourself with. But again, in the economy that we're currently in and in the state of our current, you know, lazy capitalism, it's really difficult. Um, but you can't begrudge people for wanting to do it and trying to do it. Um, you know, it's just got to hopefully go in with some some some wings on in the pool and and hopefully, you know, there's some soft place to land if it doesn't work out. But, you know, you I guess you got to at least try, you know, and that's that's what's important.

[00:21:11]>> And so much of it is the long game, too, in terms of I think most companies shoot for having an evergreen title or something that that continues to have interest for years and and you can do retail sales then. And um there a book that I really think about a lot is is called Small Giants if I'm getting the title correctly, but it's talking about really successful privately owned businesses in the United States during this particular period and maybe the 2000s, but it talked about what made these businesses successful. And they went back and looked at the businesses and 30% of them had gone out of business since they had written this book or something like that. And one of the additions they added was um cash streams. So liquid cash coming into your business as a major factor in terms of what storms you could weather and and diversifying that cash flow. And so one of the things um I did recently was I started a Patreon. I was really Patreon averse because I really am challenged by the world we live in and that there's so many asks for a dollar or two everywhere we go. Every time you buy something at a at a store or restaurant, there's a there's a tip option. Tips obviously at restaurants are different. Um I'm not saying don't tip your server, but any kind of fast cash place or anything, there's just this tip option everywhere.

[00:22:37]Everyone has a Patreon. everyone's has a a small crowdfunding campaign for for this or that. So, it's um an overwhelming environment for most people and I've always wanted to really limit the amount of financial asks I have on fans of my work to a couple times a year um for a number of reasons, but I think um I'm hoping to really push into longer and longer and longer development cycles where people can fund and support the work as it's happening. Um I think there are benefits around that. Um, so the idea is maybe have a game on Patreon that I'm putting out for a year or two years or three years that people can see, play test, and and start to enjoy.

[00:23:24]Um, and then a crowdfunding campaign that sort of solidifies that in a print product.

[00:23:30]And that's that's ideal if you if you can because not only do you have the time to do that then and to be able to have at the end, but the amount of uh feedback you can get through the entire time like not having to try to hit your friends up all the time, hey, can we get a group together and play test this this or that? Like you have people that are already fans of your work that like want to put in that work for you is is got to be um you know, extremely helpful uh along in the process. like you can be so you can basically be done when you get to the Kickstarter, which anyone that ever runs a crowdfund like the number one advice that any everyone always says is just have it done before you start.

[00:24:05]As much done as you can um so the stress is off, you know, later in the process because that's how you burn out super quick. But um you know that sounds great, you know. Um would you ideally in that world would that be the would that be all of your output or would you have small stuff kind of going through as well? I think the idea is um big project little project kind of thing. So since we last talked I also did stories from the slip which was a small zen bundle written in the world of cloud empress along with a almanac which is the collections for my newsletter expansion.

[00:24:42]So I do a free newsletter expansion for cloud umpress um and forthcoming games every month. And so I bundle that together in a print scene as a stretch goal add-on. We have volume one and volume two, which was very goofy that volume two came out before volume one with the way that shipping happened. Um, and with tariffs, I should say too, that campaign was created to pad my expenses for tariffs and and for shipping costs and search charges and and was very necessary. um would not have been able to I think ultimately I think I ate about 8 to $10,000 in shipping charges um that I didn't want to put back on backers.

[00:25:30]Um some of that was because I added this invisible discount to shipping when the campaign started.

[00:25:40]But it's hard. It's a hard value proposition to sell a game with $30, 35, $40, $50 of shipping on it. I I that just does I think that does not meet the expectations of the customer. And so people were willing to pay more maybe for shipping and I had people reach out about that. But ultimately, I think Kickstarter and crowdfunding should be also a good value proposition.

[00:26:09]There's the altruism and the support for the work and those things, but I've seen campaigns where if you can get everything for retail 20 to $30 less, you're going to lose your your base pretty quickly. And I'm pretty solid solidly in the world where I think crowdfunding is my path forward. Um, so it's not all gloom and doom with crowdfunding, but I think price is a key component to uh value in the crowdfunding proposition. Um, and part of that too is just maybe letting stuff I mean, Cladus has been sold out everywhere for four to five months or so. And so I've had lots of people reaching out. I just can't get these books anywhere. Where are they? And so the other thing is like just maybe being more comfortable with stuff being sold out until I can do reprints through the crowdfunding.

[00:26:58]unfortunate as that is for I think the accessibility but also moving into um rust swings which we'll talk more about probably in in you know the near future um the plan is for all the all of the digital files to be free from the start or or after a certain amount of time and ideally I want to move to an environment where all my digital releases are free I think that's I don't know exciting cool um and also acknowledges the reality we live in with how easy it is to send free copyrighted stuff around on the internet.

[00:27:37]>> Yeah. I mean, so a couple of things I had to erase my board and start writing notes. Um, uh, the shipping thing, I mean, I agree with you to a point. I think that maybe when a year ago when your Kickstarter happened was still after shipping prices have been crazy and in that past year they've gotten so up and down and crazy and too that it's I think people do have maybe just me cuz I buy so much [ __ ] but I think people have a better understanding of that shipping is just [ __ ] expensive now. I mean the number of things that I buy where the shipping costs more than the thing that I bought is crazy. Um, but it's becoming just a a um a reality I think for a lot of people. Like if you're not buying, especially, you know, for whatever reason in our hobby, we have a lot of people in Europe, especially, you know, in England and stuff. Um, if I want to buy something from them, you know, I bought something recently that cost $35 and it was $36 shipping. Um, so it cost more >> pledge was something like that, right?

[00:28:36]Um, >> I I think the challenge though is is if you can get it retail then, right? So if I if you can buy Cloudburst from Tuesday Night Games or Exalted Funeral or something, their shipping is going to be like $10 to $15 probably.

[00:28:50]>> Yeah. But I mean, so yes, but you also have fans and supporters, right? So Karen, you know, is and this kind of goes to a later point you have. Karen is free. Karen has always been free. Karen will always be free. And even when the Karen Kickstarter started, they said, "As soon as the Kickstarter is over, we're going to put it at print on demand, pay, you know, at cost from Lulu." So, you can always just wait for that. And the Kickstarter still made $250,000. So, I think, you know, a lot of it is people that are willing to support you and pay that extra now as opposed to waiting for retail because they're fans of you and your work and and they want the support, you know, which I think um I mean, I would I do I think Cloud Empress has a lot of fans. I think Cloud Empress is probably the biggest like non-M mother panic engine thing out there and Mothership is always, you know, it's going to be big forever. So, Cloud Empress is is is up there as well. So, um, and kind of, um, transitioning into that last point with the free digital releases, I make this argument all the time. I think everyone should always have a free PDF for everything. Um, because, uh, it's the way that you grow a community. And growing the community, especially if you can go long-term with a game that you have, is the way that you become profitable. Right? If you look at the top five, six games in the, you know, small market RPG space, you're talking Mothership, Merkborg, Ka, Mouser Ritter, like all these big games. What all of them have in common is the base game is completely free.

[00:30:21]>> Like anyone can get into it. So, >> you know, again with Karen uh as a great example, it is free. It will always be free. And yet it is still successful every time it goes to Kickstart or you know I mean Yohai was even able to to start a publishing company you know and everything that with um with the Karen store and everything all based off a free PDF like if you can it's in my opinion it's way better to if you give the PDF for free to five people and one of those people buys your game I think at the end you build more um like buys a physical product you you still those other people are still going to spread that to other people and that you get this cascade effect of people coming back to your game versus saying instead I'm going to charge those five people 20 bucks, right? And then maybe two of them are going to buy that and maybe one of them will talk about it, you know? So, it's it's this thing where it's definitely a balancing act, but if you get into it to build community versus get into it to make money right now, I think is a very is a choice that a lot of people have to make. And I personally think that most more people should lean towards having you know free core product and then being able to build back to it. Um and isn't isn't the core rules for cloud free and also like the bean barge as well?

[00:31:36]>> Yeah and land of cicas was um made free I think in November December. I think the plan is to to get about a year of of recuperating costs on the digital for cloud in particular and then make those free as well. um the expansion. I a lot of companies do the rulebooks for free. I think I haven't seen a ton that do a lot of the expansion content free, which again maybe is is not healthy for the ecosystem. I don't know. But I'm really trying to drive people to like you're talking about crowdfunding being that if you support my work, here's the here's the one or two opportunities that you can do that versus um making a lot of smaller transactions.

[00:32:18]>> Yeah.

[00:32:20]you know, you're you're a a good businessman, a good business person, and you everything you've put out has been fantastic. So, you know, I think we've talked on the show, even after you've been on about basically saying if you want to know how to run a Kickstarter and make good stuff, just follow anything that Watt does and they'll they'll lead you in the right direction.

[00:32:39]So, I think whatever you decide to do, you know, you're going to make the best possible choices that you can at the time. Um, and and so far it's worked out. I mean, I I love everything you've put out. Um, and I almost here's the crazy thing is I almost wanted to leave one of these sealed just so I could show it off. Um, because not only is the product great, I mean, even whoever you got to package it is fantastic, too. Not a single one of these corners is bent in. There's not a scratch on anything.

[00:33:08]The number of things that I've gotten where it's like, here's a box set and we just threw it in a box with one piece of brown paper and it comes beat to hell and you email someone about it and they're like, "Oh, well, that's a thing." Um, everything start to finish with all the stuff you do is so well thought out and well put together and you get that satisfaction when it actually shows up. Um, so again, I mean, keep doing what you're doing. And like I said, whatever you decide, we'll talk about it, you know, in the future and and see how it goes. But, um, you know, I I will support any Kickstarter that you put out. And speaking speaking of Kickstarters you're putting out, uh, Rust Wings, uh, we we've hinted at it a couple times. What What is that? What is this?

[00:33:46]>> So, Rust Wings is my next Jibli inspired adventure tabletop role playing game and it's we talked about Mousetger. It is compatible with Mouser. It's a new take on the rule set and it's not it doesn't star mice, right? But it uses the same um systems as Mouseter. And if you're familiar with Mouser, you'll be able to pick this up and play it quite easily.

[00:34:06]But you play as um teenage treasure hunters exploring a vast ocean. The earth is flooded in the near future and there are these islands that were stolen by the worker robots in the society and they're starting to float back to human civilization. And so as this um teenage crew, you will fly out to one of those particular islands in this campaign called Tower Island and investigate um your missing friends but also look for treasure, cool stuff and I don't know like dick around, have fun kind of thing on the island.

[00:34:44]Um, so buzz word buzz word that you said um that we have to talk about uh Gibli inspired um that that so >> but we have talked about this before um and I feel like of all the Giblly inspired stuff I've seen this one makes more sense um because a lot of people I mean I'm a big I'm a big Giblly fan but what a lot of people I think when they say Gibly what they mean is like whimsical and like rolling green hills and [ __ ] right? Versus, you know, like the I mean, Princess Monoke, which is literally the story of like nature versus industrialization or the first time I watched Spirited Away and you you realize that that like gunk monster thing in the bath house is actually just a polluted river. Like there there are deep things in Gibli and like some very sad [ __ ] that they put out and like very deep um and even even the more quote unquote whimsical things. There's always an extremely deep um undercurrent to everything that Gibli puts out which is what makes it Giblly. It's what makes it not Disney. Um so it's not just like teens [ __ ] around on an island or something, right? like what what makes you call this Gibli inspired and not have it be this whimsy core [ __ ] Um, for me, um, Jibli is a is a combination of things, but one of the elements that's most often lost in the Ghibli inspired marketing frame that we see a lot in uh, tabletop role playing games in particular, and I think there's a lot of reasons for it being so popular.

[00:36:35]um is the darkness. I wrote a recent Patreon post about how I feel like darkness is underappreciated or under when we talk about Ghibli, we don't necessarily mention the darkness in the films. And if you look across and when we talk about Ghibli, we're usually talking about Miyazaki. Um although there are, you know, Takahada and others that that have done films, but we're usually talking about Miyazaki's work. But there's even Castle in the Sky, which is probably the direct um one of the jumping off points in terms of building the world for this. It's sort of this the the main characters, they grow up in this sort of like, you know, the main boy um grows up in this sort of like mind out area that they've destroyed through industry. And there's um Miyazaki was inspired by I think he was in Wales and saw this union activity.

[00:37:29]And so, um, Miyazaki's socialism was like driving some of his inspirations for Castle in the Sky. And then we have them going up to Lapida, the flying city, and and it's like a a weapon, a super weapon that that sets off an atomic bomb. Well, I think the the piece around that is one, there's there's a a look at um humanity in its full spectrum, not just um the like comfort and coziness, but also the darkness, the destruction, the cruelty that is present in humans, in nature at large. Um, I also think that one thing I've been really intentional about is trying to say something and also go beyond my inspirations when I put these pieces together. And so with uh Rust Wings, um, we have this sort of broader sense of adventure and fun and play that is really important. I wanted to do a lighter I had I have this really dark project that I've been working on in this lighter project Rust Wings that I was like which one am I going to do and I feel with how dark the world feels in America um I felt I felt like I made the right choice um to just sort of emphasize play and exploration but in the world of Rust Wings you all play as teenagers because when you get to be 18 you were um drafted into the military this authoritarian royal navy and so anyone of adult age either is a fascist Navy person or they escape and run away to be sky pirates. And so your parents, you don't have parents because they're either um serving in the the military or they've run away to become sky pirates. And so the main characters are watched over by their grandparents and they have a lot of free time in this sort of um industrial oil rig that they all live in. and and um also then dealing a lot with this broader robot revolution that happened where robot kind laid down their tools and decided not to work. And so trying to deal with some of those broader social and ecological questions in the the sense of u or in the the setting of a role playing game is is something that's really important and actually say something with the work that's put out.

[00:39:58]not just um sort of a a best of Miyazaki images kind of thing. And that's and this is what we talked about and this is why I'm excited for it and and I've talked about this project to other people before like since we've talked about it but since the preview page has been up for that exact reason you know because there there was some wasn't there some new like OIMA [ __ ] that was recently and it's literally and then you hear the creators talking about like oh like make sure everyone's like cartoony monsters so people can murder and not feel bad about it and it's like what the does that have to do with Gibli like you just have some like roughly kind of anime looking art and then you're just putting these buzzwords on versus exactly what you're talking about. Like it's this dystopian world.

[00:40:39]Like literally you're you're like having these fun adventures in the background of like your parents are in this like fascist navy in this like quasi post-apocalypse world where there's like pirates and all this stuff going on. And like even as teenagers, there's this like looming thing ahead of you. Like I could be 18 in a couple of years and what is the decision I'm going to make?

[00:40:59]Am I going to go with the Navy or am I going to run away and do this whole thing? So that that to me is what this is one of the few games that I've read that has used that that buzzword. Um where it feels like it actually fits because of the thought that you're putting into it. And you can see how that correlates to a lot of the stuff you've done in Cloud Empress 2 though.

[00:41:17]Like a lot of the even the first adventure you ran for us on the show where we went down into this like broken down kind of like archology and there was like things that were plugged in but like life coming from it too. you've put a lot of thought into the society and the issues the society can has in all of the games you put out. Um, so I'm really excited to see a non-Cloud thing. Um, but that obviously still has the same kind of um like passion for that kind of like aspect of the games that you put out.

[00:41:49]Um, so and Mouse R is one of my favorite games of all time. I think in a certain light mouse might be the best TRPG ever written. Um, I've said that more than once and I'm going to stay by it. Um, but why Master? Why did you pick Masher specifically for Rust Wings?

[00:42:03]>> So, uh, my my sort of concept as a publisher, Worlds by Watt, is to make games in other people's rule sets.

[00:42:14]Um, so I've been looking at different rule sets, and I wanted to make a game that was a little bit more accessible than Cloud Empress.

[00:42:24]One of the things too that I had heard a lot was that, and this isn't, this is sort of an all ages game, whatever that means. Um, I only played it with adults at this point, but I think you could play it with younger folks, too, is I I a lot of people on the Discord were saying, "Oh, mouse I mouth shooter is the first game that my kids played with or I brought, you know, my kids or younger folks or I use mouse trader to sort of onboard people into tabletop role playing games." And I think the tactile pieces, the chits are really valuable.

[00:42:54]The um three attributes or stats or whatever is is so simple. Um the mice help. Um but in this it's teenagers. Um so the simplicity of the system was really attractive to me as well as tapping into a new community.

[00:43:15]I wanted to do a a roll under system and so something different than Cloud Empress mechanically and one of the things was the the tactility of the the chips I wanted to explore a little bit further and so one major component of Rust Wings is both the physical product and as you play the game is these cards. So it'll have a full deck of cards. Many of these will be items, but I've I've also done something really neat with character creation where you deal out three cards to each player and those are your attributes. And so you assign those to different slots. Um they can vary, you know, um I think it's like 8 to 14 or I forget what the the number spread is exactly, but then um when you take a wound, you flip that card and there's a wounded side. And so for some particularly low stats, the number increases quite considerably. Whereas if you had a particular high attribute, it might go down as you might expect. Um, but it's just sort of one balancing, but also this narrative thing that we see in in films and Castle in the Sky where hey, maybe you get knocked down and then you're really determined or you're really mad and you throw like a big punch kind of thing. So, um, trying to model that, but then also giving people like keepsake cards and items and and handing out cards is just such a really easy way to create characters. And I've played this at a number of conventions for the play testing with new players.

[00:44:45]And it's you can create characters in about 5 minutes. It's it's really phenomenal. Um, and then we have these fun portrait cards.

[00:44:53]So, you can get this you can draft the artwork for your character, too. Um, so all of this sort of goes to accessibility in terms of how easy is it to get and play with other people, how easy is easy it to run, to create characters. Um, and that doesn't preclude more experienced role playing game players uh from playing it. But something different than Cloud Empress that that really leans in I think mouse trader strengths. The other big thing with um the I wanted some space where I could add more rules on. Um so one of the the big pieces and and um one of the design sparks for the game was thinking about challenge that revolved outside of violence.

[00:45:39]Cloud Empress has a pretty strong like antiviolent stance on weapons and guns and stuff and that's mechanically built in. But with Rust Wings, um the thing I wanted to explore was exploration. Um the thing I wanted to explore was exploration. Okay. Um but climbing, hiding, jumping, moving through a ruined space. A lot of this comes from when I was a kid, a teenager, we would go find like under a bridge or we'd climb construction cement pieces and and things and jump around on it and and have fun on it and kind of see what was going on in the the shadows of of the the town I lived in.

[00:46:21]So, for me to climbing is a really challenging thing to do in role playing games. And so I added some additional rules on um that work pretty well in the system without bogging it down too much to make that physical exploration of space equally as interesting as combat if not more so.

[00:46:40]>> Yeah. You know, we talked about we talked about combat a lot with with Mothership and stuff because you did you did put in a thing about, you know, when you use violence and things like that um mechanically making it a little bit different. But at in the in the end, you know, Mothership is still kind of a game that's built a little bit around like combat is the answer because we can get a whole thing about like why there's not sneak and stuff. Um, but you know, mouse trader is really interesting. Built on into the odd like you said, there's no attack roll. It's rolled under. There's so much more you can do with a little bit less cuz it's more of like a framework kind of than like a an extremely builtout system. Um, so I can imagine I mean you can see the million things that people have built for it and added on to it because it really lets you >> kind of be a little bit um what's the word I'm looking for? Like modular kind of um with the system. Um and and one thing you said really sticks like people onboard if I I have and do and when I do intro people in DJ RPGs, it's mouse better. No question. There's like two or three games in my head that I I reach for depending on kind of like who they are and the ages and stuff, but in those top three games, like number one almost always is going to be Mouse Shredder.

[00:47:51]And not just cuz it's cool and the art is great, but like you said, the little the pieces you get that go in your backpack, but also like the ease of the system is is great. So branching into a new system that can be an all ages game, you know, is I mean it's a great choice.

[00:48:04]It's a great system to run with. So, you know, I mean, you're going to have to come back on the show and run it for us, you know, at some point, right?

[00:48:11]>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, when when's this coming out? Like when when is your hope for the Kickstarter to drop? Or do you have a set time already?

[00:48:20]>> March 3rd. So, we got about two weeks.

[00:48:23]>> We got about two weeks. That's it. So, we're gonna have to figure out Okay. And it's going to run for a month.

[00:48:29]>> That's correct. Yeah. Until the first Thursday in April, whatever that is.

[00:48:33]April 2nd, maybe. sometime in March. As soon as this is over, message me and say, "Hey, let's set this up." Because I got to get Hunter on board. His schedule hasn't dropped for March yet. Um, but we got to get this played. Yeah. Um, >> because this sounds I mean, this sounds great. Like I said, I want to play a Giblly inspired game that feels Giblly inspired, and I love me some masher, so we got to get it on. Um, when people pledge for the project though, what what all can they get? We talked about the cards and stuff like that, but what um what all is going to come with this? is I know you said some parts are going to made in China again and we're going to need to worry about that stuff, but what's the expectation of of what we're getting?

[00:49:08]>> So, it's a um starter box set in the fashion that I do it where um it'll be a bunch of stuff in there. The the lower level pledge is a box bundle.

[00:49:21]The game itself at uh comes with a rule book, which you know makes sense. But um there will be a uh guide book that goes over in detail 20 to 30 different locations within this tower island setting place. Um they'll have the I think it's 103 or 108 cards that it's a combination of um character creation components, the portraits. Um, you get to pick your own plane. So, you'll get a cool plane. Um, you get a mask, a robotic mascot animal. Um, but then a bunch of items and also rumors that you can investigate while you're on the island. The other big piece is this mapbook. So, it's a spiralbound mapbook with a 8 and 1 half x 11 sheet of punchboard tokens. And so, there's two primary ways to play. I guess three. Uh the first is you can use the mapbook that's included if you're in person and you can put your little pieces down and climb and move across this isometric map with climbing um and jumping and and traversing space. The the two big challenges that I ran into as I' I've been play testing this for quite a bit of time is one and and just playing role playing games in general, but um is one uh having players all understand the space that they're discussing. If you're saying, "Hey, I need to climb up here.

[00:50:41]People want to know, well, how high is it and how close is it to this other thing if I want to jump across? And so there are these um isometric maps that are in this map book. So each location will have its own map um that then you can put these punchboard tokens that match the portraits that you've chosen for your characters on and move across and and different NPC um or or threat tokens as well. Um the other way to play though that that was how I did a lot of play testing is um the system is based around using children's blocks as terrain. And so you can dump a pile of blocks out and and either build it in a preconfigured um map as you'll see in in Tower Island or um there will be uh rules for procedural generation maps and and making your own maps out of uh these children's blocks. But it's been a really um eye-catching table presence to have like this tower built out of children's blocks that you can put together pretty quickly. You then put these um points of interest markers. So, we put these little question marks all over it. And so, those are things that um warrant more investigation whether the players choose to or not. Um if you choose to investigate though, it's going to advance the time track which will create further consequences. And so the nice thing about that is I've been finding players don't like flip over every token. Um it's you know they look broadly at the map. They talk about what's there. They ask the guide what's there and then they might go over to this particular spot to investigate a little more deeply. Time increases and then they might go to a new location.

[00:52:09]Um, and then we'll have some I I think it's going to be Owl Rodeo, Owl Bear Rodeo, um, support for a online um, approach to playing uh, which I know is really important and how I play a lot of games as well.

[00:52:23]>> Yeah, I mean, it's like the only way I get to play games cuz I don't live near anybody that plays games. So, uh, you know, the VTT support is is always nice to have. Um, but yeah, I mean, looks great. You know, just like as I said before, all the stuff that you do. So, I'm really excited for it. Excited. How many cards did you say it was?

[00:52:39]>> It's a It's It's like a full sheet. So, it's going to be I think 108.

[00:52:43]>> Damn, that's a lot of cards.

[00:52:45]>> Yeah. So, it's like a full deck. Um poker sized cards, which is I feel nice and are fun to to play. Um yeah, attribute cards. I'm trying to think if there's bunch of gear. I mean, a lot of it's going to be like the loot and treasures that you find. Um, some of those are I think the other thing I wanted to So you you play as treasure hunters, but the other sort of jibli piece around it is um sort of questioning like what it means to loot a place. So, you might find something that like is really cool, but like it has a bird's nest on it, or um you find something that's really cool that isn't necessarily like a a giant novelty check or like some kind of weird um sculpture, like stuff that doesn't necessarily have monetary value, but you bring this back to your clubhouse. Each each Rustwing crew has their own clubhouse hidden in this like uh over over um populated oil derek. And so you go back to your clubhouse and some stuff you might just bring back um because it looks cool, but those will also potentially then have upgrades when you revisit the island.

[00:53:50]And the the sort of gameplay loop is that you'll be going to this island several times um and then heading back and then going back again and and sort of pulling more stuff out and and trying to solve this broader mystery about um why the islands appeared and why two of your friends have gone missing.

[00:54:07]>> Nice. again, we're gonna have to get you on. It's March is a short month, so I'm going to have to talk to Hunter and we'll got to get this figured out. Um, but uh, one thing in that intrigues me is you said you have a darker game brewing. No pressure at all, but do you want to give any hints at all about because you know that's like my whole thing. Yeah, it was like >> So, um, I did just announce So, I did announce this on the Patreon. So, if you're you can read more about it, see some of the art and stuff. Um the uh other game I'm working on there there's another Cloud Empress expansion that'll sort of be out next, but uh called I think it's Land of the Clouds. So we're we're going to go up to the clouds next in Cloud Empress. Um they're looking for a new Cloud Empress um to replace the old one that went missing. So that's sort of the next sort of trilogy of books we'll be sort of exploring and playing through um what that all means and uh seeing who the emperor is and all that kind of stuff.

[00:55:07]So that's that's where Cloud Empress is going over the next like 3 to 5 years.

[00:55:11]Um the uh other big project though is called Sky Burial. Um Sky Burial is a combination of Princess Manoke meets Howell's Moving Castle. The primary uh focus around it is what if dragons existed in the real world. Um dragons are very uh overdone in tabletop role playing games. So the dragons of sky burial are quite unique in that they're almost like giant eagles with horns. So they look a bit different but their um feathers have a magical property to them. So, there will be some gameplay interactions that I haven't tested yet, but um one player plays as a dying dragon and the other players play as people cursed to follow that dying dragon. So, you'll be um shephering this dying dragon to the the mountain of creation where it wants to have a sky burial and die um so that the curse can be broken. And so, um, the setting for that though is is more Hollow's moving castle, sort of 1910s to 1920s vibe, um, mid-industrial, late industrial kind of, um, period. So, that's the other project that that is sort of slowgoing, but Pedle will be doing the artwork for that, who does the the artwork on Cloud Empress, and that's kind of my slow simmer project, I think. um might take a couple years to come out, but my idea is to sort of slowly put out content on the I don't know how slowly, but you know, put out a lot of content on the Patreon before going live with a um a uh crowdfunding campaign or something like that. Give it the time it needs to bake.

[00:56:59]>> Yeah. I mean, that's that's a great project to be slow simmer on. That sounds awesome. And I mean, you already said that like I mean, it's going to be interesting going up into the clouds.

[00:57:07]You know, you get a little bit of hint of some of that in the in the early Cloud Empress stuff. Um, especially when you realize why it's called Cloud Empress and everything. Um, so it's going to be fun to go up in there. And you said what's interesting is you said that's going to be 3 to 5 years, which is how does that feel as like a designer knowing it's going to take you a year, like a couple years to get it done. Then you have art, which always takes some time. Then you have production, which always takes some time. And then you have the Kickstarter which always takes some time. Then you have a film that always takes some time.

[00:57:35]Like how does that like how do you settle in going all right this is my project for 5 years. Like how do you cope with that? Um how do you feel about that? Like what is that like?

[00:57:48]It's um they're getting done right. I think the big challenge that I came to, and I've told the story in a couple places and maybe on one of our episodes, but I had this like super uh epic legacy board game that I was trying to create with a board game publisher.

[00:58:11]And so I'd written about like 60,000 words of this choose your own adventure in a small town where two people go missing and you look for them and and the town is unraveling because of this like you find out one of the main characters dads was actually an alien the whole time and he's sort of like losing his mind to dementia but he's an alien. So the whole anyway this whole big thing and I was trying to do this in this multi-epotic board game because uh Pandemic Legacy had just came out and I was a big Pandemic Legacy fan and I was really excited about Legacy games and so I somehow managed to get a contract signed with a um company that's now gone defunct for running uh too many Kickstarters they couldn't fulfill. Um but uh I just spent like three to four years working on the same thing over and over again and I never got to publish any of it. it wasn't in a place where it was ready to be published either. So, I came to tabletop role playing games um one having a better sense of my strength as a both a game designer and as a writer.

[00:59:13]I knew people responded really well to a lot of the storytelling that I was doing in that game system, but I was finding that iterating rules was really difficult. and I would make changes that would send me backwards three steps and then I'd make another change that sent me backwards another three steps. And so I found a lot more comfort in using a solid triedand-true system like mouse rider, like Mothership and just tweaking a little bit for theme. Um, so in in Rust Wings, I've added this consequence system where you can take uh damage uh delay or you can alert the enemies to your presence or threats to your presence. And so it's this little twist on the system that makes climbing interesting in particular. And so um it creates more varied consequences for climbing something. So you might drop something out of your bag and all of a sudden all of the Navy people are running towards you, right? Um as opposed to just oh you fall down. Do you want to try climbing again kind of thing. Um so uh all to say coming to tabletop role playing games, I really wanted to get stuff done. And so, um, from the beginning, I had this sort of idea of Cloud Empress being this, you know, we start on the land and we go up to the clouds and there there's another trilogy of books after that. Um, these setting books, really making it this expansive world, but doing it in small parts so that I could actually get them done and people could play them and I could get feedback on them and that kind of stuff. Um, I think uh I like challenging myself though and and exploring new topics. And so this sort of next phase of Worlds by Wat as a publisher is trying a couple new IPs intermixed with the Cloud Empress stuff.

[01:01:00]And so one of these is Rust Wings Sky Barrel at some point. I've got this goofy smaller game that I want to do at some point. Um so that creates this sort of it's a nice mix because um sometimes the the now that I have sort of a formula for Cloud Empress, it can feel restrictive and refreshing at different times. Um it can be nice to come back and say, "Hey, I already know how to write this book. Like um I already know the tone that I'm going for and I know how I'm going to lay out NPCs and that kind of thing." But then also like, oh, I might want to try something, you know, different. Like it it people say, "Oh, well, you know, this I don't feel like this rule system totally matches the vibe or I don't know, stuff like that." And it and I just have to be like, "Well, that's what we did at the time." You know, I don't know. Like I I um so the um yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think it it's nice knowing where I'm going. Um, I think one of the the as an artist or creative, there has been in my life this pervasive fear that like that was the last good idea I ever had. Like, oh my god, like that's it. Um, or what am I going to do next? And so having some of that built out a little bit in my head um means that I can start commissioning artwork too. And so like I've bought like 35 pieces of world building art for Sky Burial. Um Rust Wings all of the rule book arts complete. We have like a decent amount of the cards complete. So that's the other piece with timeline. I found that artwork is the big the the critical path if you look in project management is is artwork. Um because if you use a smaller team, which I do, you know, if you think, oh, a team can get maybe four pieces of art done, five pieces of art done a month, maybe they can do more, but that's really busy artists, you know? I don't know. So that's the like, okay, well, that's 50 pieces a year, but if you have a game that needs 100 pieces, right, that's two years of art. So that's been the the big thing for me is trying to get um the art started maybe even before I fully, you know, know what's going on or or write to the art sometimes now too has been interesting. So, I'm sort of there's like this clown pirate faction in the new Cloud Empress books where um the emperor has sort of deemed these people this one uh cloud city like oh they're all fools and idiots and and like I don't take you seriously and so they've sort of um like taken that on as a badge of honor and they all dress as like crazy clown pirates now. Um, but like I don't have all of that fully explored yet, but I'm like commissioning cloud art or uh yeah, cloud sky pirate clown artwork. Um, which is looking cool, but some of that I'm going to write to now, which is also kind of fun.

[01:03:57]>> Yeah, I mean, once you can get I mean, how many books have have now come out for for Cloud Empress? Um it's it's I would say three setting books and then there's um two like in world zenes and then the two almanacs and then two pamphlets.

[01:04:20]>> So a lot so a lot. So like you're you've you're deep in the world. you are not only that but also like I assume in kind of a groove with the production you know like you have a you know a lot of the stuff that you do like the covers are all roughly like >> they're they're themed and stuff so you kind of are in this groove. It it's must feel kind of neat to kind of get into that state where >> you do a thing that can inspire the thing to do the thing that inspires the thing. So like because you're you're kind of in in in it, you know, and the fact that you can say like I had this idea, so I make some art. The art inspires me to do more idea and it can all kind of stay within the same direction uh is is really neat and it has to feel pretty cool to to be able to do that. You're just kind of always driving forward with it.

[01:05:12]>> Yeah. And it's it's um I know about how long it takes to make a book now. Um, and I know like I go to a coffee shop at like 4:00 a.m. and I write, you know, like there's certain things I've done now several times to to get the writing done and I have that tone I can tap into. Um, so yeah, it's it's it's it's exciting.

[01:05:35]Um but um also wanting to explore like new rule sets and new new universes and and um it'll be interesting too. I I know um like what what does my current audience find appealing versus like can I one of the things is can I bring new people in right who might not be interested in cloud umpress will another you know IP attract them more right is rust wings going to bring in a new set of people who can discover cloud empress one of the other things I think about um which maybe you have an opinion on I'm guessing you do but the other thing is I I get worried about um at what point does someone look at their shelf and say, you know, I have enough Cloud Empress books. You know, I haven't I've I've I still have two that I haven't played. Um I guess I'm a fear motivated person, but I think the other piece is just creating more pillars for this company I'm building. And so if um I read this uh slaying the dragon book on Dungeons and Dragons and it's like the rule book sells well and then everything can have at least in D&D's history it's like some of these things have diminishing returns as you go through the life cycle of a product and then you do a new addition and it gets people excited and you improve it and those kinds of things. But um I think just diversifying my like overall portfolio is something I'm interested in both creatively as as enriching um because then I can come back to Cloud Empress and be like, "Oh, thank God like I'm so excited to write in this world because I um you know there's this the Cloud Empress herself, Cloud, like there's this whole thing that she's going through that that people want to see the um she's sort of a recurring character that pops into these games. Um, and so she's got things to do and places to be and that kind of stuff that I want to continue to explore. But, um, I think from the business side, it makes sense to have a couple different IPs, although I don't Yeah, I'm that's just my suspicion. I know, um, Tuesday Night Games is is going to be launching like Father Fog.

[01:07:52]We don't know a lot about that yet.

[01:07:54]Mothership has seemed to done really well, do really well for Dungeons and Dragons, I guess, is they've sort of landed on that being a single um world as opposed to the 90s and 2000s where they had a bunch of like splinter worlds, right?

[01:08:08]>> Yeah. Well, I mean, Dungeons and Dragons is I mean, 5D Dungeons and Dragons is its own thing. I mean, it's not even part of the TRPG industry. It is it is an industry unto itself. And it's um but the thing about Yes, I have thoughts on everything you just said and opinions of course because I have an opinion on everything. But the thing about D and D is like most of their supplement books are garbage, but you know what the supplement books do?

[01:08:34]They make people buy the core book, which is the number one selling book all the time, no matter what. So like they don't really care if they put out a good adventure. Um if the return that they're going to get from people buying the core book so they can play the adventure is more than it costs to put the adventure out, it doesn't matter if the adventure sucks. if you know what I mean. Um, and you can tell in the quality of everything they put out from like 2014 to 2024, it it very quickly uh plateaued off um after the first couple. But, you know, I mean, there's there's a reason bands have side projects, you know what I mean? There's a reason that a Perfect Circle exists. You know, Tulle is still Tulle, but you know, Maynard wanted to do something a little bit different, and it didn't take anything away from Tulle.

[01:09:13]Um, and Perfect Circle is still cool, too. And there's people that are Perfect Circle fans and aren't Tool fans, and people that are Tool fans and aren't Perfect Circle fans. Um, so there's no there's nothing that says you can't do other stuff that you're excited about.

[01:09:23]And being able to take a break and refresh and do something different um in another system uh can only benefit, you know, the system that you're, you know, the your primary, you know, kind of thing of worlds by what is um bringing in new people, bringing in new life, getting new inspirations, getting new ideas. There's not and and like you said, you know, early on on the conversation, you got to diversify that liquid cash, you know, because if if any one thing falls off and and that's the only don't have a single point of failure, you know, if one game suddenly, you know, how many people literally were like my life is over when the OGL stuff happened with 5e because they had just that one thing and if that one document that is still kind of >> um gets gets taken away, their entire life, you know, is down the drain. So, um, who I mean, it's not going to happen, but what if at one point they're like, "All right, Tuesday game says no more panic engine stuff. You're done.

[01:10:15]What happens to the company, right?" So, there's no reason not to jump into a bunch of different stuff. Not just from a business perspective because if the if you're if if everything you do with TRPGs is first through a capitalist lens, you're in my opinion like already failing. Um, but if you know you're a creative and capitalism is happening, that's completely different. Like if you are doing something because it's fun and creative and interesting and you want to do something different, but then also need to make money for your company, that's in my opinion like the correct way to get to the capitalism, you know.

[01:10:50]Um, so there's no reason not to jump into into mouse trader, especially because you're like Russ sounds cool as [ __ ] So, you know, you're not just, you know, putting out, you know, the the the thousandth new hack of something, right?

[01:11:02]Like you're doing your take on it cuz this feels distinctly you. Um, anyone that has read Cladris and then reads or hears a pitch for wrestlings is going to go, "Oh, that absolutely sounds like what?" You know, that sounds like the themes that we've seen some other things and it's cool to explore them in a different way. Um, what was the first thing that you said that I probably have an opinion on?

[01:11:23]diminishing returns of like uh No, we talked about >> Oh, yeah. No, no. So, The Clatypus on your shelf on the shelf. Yeah.

[01:11:33]>> Too many books. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. I've read >> You may be an outlier on this one, though.

[01:11:39]>> I've read most of everything on my shelf. Have I played most of it? No.

[01:11:42]Have I played a lot of it? Yes. I have played dozens and dozens of games. I've read hundreds and hundreds of games. Um, the thing about especially the setting book and stuff you're putting out is it's great to get it to the table. Have I been able to get everything from Clatapus to the table? No. Will I ever be able to get everything you've put out? No. Will I be able to read all of it and have fun stories in my head and see the directions you're going? Yes. I don't see really any difference between that and like who's going to like when Joe Abberroy puts another book, I'm like, ah, I have enough novels on my I don't need the next book in the series.

[01:12:17]No one's ever going to say that. You know what I mean? Like it's really cool and the way that you're putting out the books as >> here's what's happening here and then >> there's uh movement in time in the way that you put out the setting books. Yeah. It's not just like >> Yeah. Here's the one snapshot and we're just giving you all the different views.

[01:12:36]there is a story even within the way the setting is progressing where even if not everyone's able to get everything to the table it's still exciting to read and see the advancement of the story and the adventures you could do and like even just prepping stuff is fun so I don't think anyone's really going to be like ah I have enough cladris like you know it's not just like here's another system that and another system another system it's like it's more setting and even if you skip setting book one setting book two setting book three and then dead stuff comes up and you're like all right well that's the one I'm going to hop in >> that's the one for Yeah.

[01:13:06]>> Yeah. That's the thing is I don't think people are going to get tired of it um because of the way that you're writing it specifically. Um so I wouldn't worry I wouldn't worry about that at all.

[01:13:14]>> Well, and that's a good point. We did that. You know, I'd encourage folks to go back and watch the the writing seminar we did um a year ago, but one of the approaches that I take with Cloud Empress, less so with Rust Wings, just because it really is built on like ease of play, but for Sky Burial as well as I'm conceptualizing, is this like literary component to um the adventures and the the worlds that I put together is I exist in that same framework that you're talking about where I have a pile of books on my shelf and I play most of my I have to play a lot of my own stuff just to like get it to be at the quality that I want it to be. And so I I do get to hop into some other games and some other systems, but a lot of it is just me playing my own stuff. But I love reading it, right? And so I think that's the other piece too is just um balancing the uh you know the UX piece of of rules and books and manuals with the fact that like we may not ever need it for that function. that the the imagination and the enjoyment of reading is is also um integral to a lot of people uh how they how they play um or I guess experience uh role playing games.

[01:14:31]>> I mean that's I mean at the end of the day like I've I will always have read you know exponentially more systems than I'll ever get to play. But I I'm a systems guy. I love reading systems.

[01:14:42]like I'll buy a book just because the system sounds cool and be like all right it was pretty cool but like that one rule that's one that got me you know and and that's the enjoyment I get a lot of it you know I read more than I'm able to play I mean even with the show and everything I can't even I think >> the last time I got to play a game was an AP on the show and the time before that was probably an AP on the show you know we've been doing a lot more skirmish in person um it it takes less people it's just me and one other person I can usually play the game >> um getting four people to sit down and play teach RPG is a lot different but like you said like people enjoy games in a lot of different ways and especially people in the community that we're in.

[01:15:15]Um, and you know, a lot of people that I interact with are creators and stuff like that. Um, people like to read other people's stuff and people like systems and people like games and people like reading something that's teach RPG based because they enjoy this space and and seeing, you know, if they use bullet points or or the way that the layout works in the system and stuff like that.

[01:15:34]So, you know, like you said, there's a a lot of ways people can enjoy it, and the only target the target audience isn't always just going to be the player or the GM for the TTRPG stuff that people are putting out, for the game stuff that people are putting out.

[01:15:48]>> Well, it's interesting, too, to think about this like um I want to say like introvert, extrovert, but just like um being alone versus being with people, right? I mean, we think about I think about tabletop role playing games as this very I mean, obviously they're solo games, right? And I have a solo module for Cloud Empress and that kind of stuff, but the quintessential DND experience that we see is like five people around and we got the board and all this kind of stuff and it's really um playing tabletop role playing games is really tiring for me. I mean, I really love it, but it is like a huge energy investment in and during and then out. It's like so I think just um that's just a part of my experience with role playing games is that it takes a lot of energy. And so thinking about the the books thing as as a refresh and a a way to have a um I don't know that's something that vital revitalizes me and gives me energy. Playing games does too. Normally I you know when I especially I run a lot of sessions as other GMs I know um say it's like I'm like oh my god why did I say I was going to do this and this is like this doom that I feel and then I like I I am having fun and then I come home and I'm like I had the best time I want to do it again you know all this kind of thing but just thinking about how we we use our energy as it relates to the hobby is is pretty interesting too.

[01:17:14]>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean like again I will all I will read a lot more than Cloud Empress than I'll ever get to play and I've been very much enjoying reading it.

[01:17:22]So keep making it and I'll keep reading it and trying to play it. I think that's where that's where I'm going to fall on it. Um but what you're going to be coming back on the show within the next month >> is so we can play some Rust Wings. I'm going to hit Hunter up. I already messaged him yesterday because I got to schedule some elf with him. So I'm going to tell them to add it to the schedule.

[01:17:41]Um, but until then, um, I'll make sure that the link to the pre- page is it's the internet, you know, where things are. Um, uh, so that people can back, uh, save the the the Kickstarter for Russ Wings. But where else can people find your stuff? Where can people find Cloud Empress? Where can people find Worlds by Watt? Where can people find you?

[01:18:00]>> Yeah, so Cloud Empress, you can go to cloudress.com.

[01:18:04]Um, that is a link to my newsletter, but my newsletter is right now Worlds by Watt at Substack and then I am Worlds by Watt at Blue Sky and Worlds byWatt on Patreon now. So, um, the newsletter is probably the the best way to hear about everything else that's going on, but encourage folks if they are interested in the Rust Wings campaign to uh, take a look. I'm doing like an early bird thing, so you get a free grumpy frog portrait. It's like this mean looking frog with a prosthetic arm holding a cup of tea. Um so if you back in the first 48 hours, you get a free little um extra thank you because of how important that time period is for the um the crowdfunding process.

[01:18:44]>> They they look grumpy. So >> yeah. So cool. So what always a pleasure to have you on the show. You're going to come back and this is not going to be the last time I think this year even with Russ Wings and stuff coming on. So uh thank you so much. really appreciate it and like I said, always a pleasure.

[01:19:02]>> Awesome. Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

[01:19:04]>> Yeah. Uh that's it for today. We will see all of you later and you will see Watt soon again. Bye everybody.