Design as a Business Function: Bridging Intent and Scale

[00:00:01]There is a chance in which there can be failure. Designers are like selfcritical.

[00:00:08][music] Hello and welcome to the first episode of the intent gap. The intent gap started with a recurring [music] question in my mind throughout my corporate career which was [music] why does good design not always translate into desired or good business outcome.

[00:00:33]This make me [music] get into a rabbit hole and I dove deeper and came to a conclusion that design currently as I see around [music] me works in silos as an art as an aesthetic element as a facelift [music] or as a tool as a part as a craft but not as a system or a framework or a complete function itself. To talk about this and more [music] such things, we have our first guest today, Mr. Ravi Pala, the chief business officer at Urban Ladder, who we fondly call Pala.

[00:01:10]Pala has [music] been very closely associated with design for as long as I have known him over a decade now. Pala, am I right?

[00:01:18]>> About 11 years. Yes.

[00:01:20]>> Lovely. Welcome to the show, Fa. Thank you for coming here.

[00:01:24]>> Thank you. Thank you, Nur. Thank you for inviting me here.

[00:01:27]So u we're talking about design how design is important as a framework and not as an single element at urban ladder. How central is design to the product development cycle?

[00:01:44]>> How dependent are the teams around in front and back to on design or the output of design or the function of design.

[00:01:52]>> Right. So first in thank you for having couple of urban ladder chairs uh here at the studio right as in key very beautiful stairs these are floren stairs and top sellers at urban ladder so you had asked me a question right that key how central design at urban ladder so I couple of directions I'll take so that doesn't I can explain to you how it matters to us right one the pure hierarchy of things so design is an independent function at urban ladder It directly reports to the CXO. Okay.

[00:02:25]Right. It reports to me as the CBO right now.

[00:02:27]>> So it has its functional head. It has its own team and it can take its own decisions.

[00:02:32]>> Right? And they create their own annual operating plans also that we have closed >> right >> as well. So by doing that we give them their own budget, their own team size, their own intent and their own expectations. So that is stage one right as in on however design needs to work independently. Second, okay, end of the day, we are a commercial firm, right?

[00:02:54]We're trying to sell a certain furniture piece to customers.

[00:02:57]>> What we want to do at our design is to get new products out continuously, season by season, >> right, >> to the customer. Now, there would be many different ways in which this need is uh defined, right? Either our store team members are telling us or our customers are telling us that there's a certain product that they want or my category team is going and seeing other competition and saying that these products are selling well we should have them too. there's something trending >> something trending right and third most importantly the design team in itself is defining certain areas right let's say this season we are thinking we will launch India modern at urban ladder right that's a design style that >> gaps they identify >> there it's a gap and trend line that they have identified they think that this is a gap that is present in the market at this mid-premium subluxury space that urban ladder operates in >> right >> and the intent is to get those ranges out for the customer, >> right?

[00:03:58]>> So that the customer can appreciate it.

[00:04:00]So there are different angles in which these needs come in. Once these needs come in, the design team evaluates these needs, finds the right product solutions for them, either develops them fully inhouse or works with our vendors to get those products out.

[00:04:15]>> Interesting.

[00:04:15]>> So that is the journey in which uh it operates in terms of how we launch our new products.

[00:04:21]>> So it is quite central. I believe all the teams uh very very uh closely depend on design's output or what design is all about right I remember very clearly at a very early stage with urban ladder the CS the customer service was so very well aligned with design >> I think sometimes the gap is that the design team is at a certain level of maturity but the teams around are lagging so that creates a lag in the entire process but it was beautiful to observe that and I understood how it how how how important customers are.

[00:04:55]>> Absolutely.

[00:04:57]>> Going to the next bit.

[00:04:59]>> Mhm.

[00:05:00]>> Has there been a moment where there has been very strong design work?

[00:05:04]>> Mhm.

[00:05:05]>> Uh but it hasn't potentially led to a certain desired business outcome.

[00:05:12]>> Correct.

[00:05:13]>> Uh and what did that look like? Was it like the people or systems or any other team that had to see the impact? The sales got affected. What was it like?

[00:05:24]>> Right. So, let me take a step back, right? As in uh when we kind of launch a product, any product, right? Uh be it a furniture piece or a fashion line wants to launch some clothing etc. Anything right?

[00:05:40]>> And that perception is translated into a final product through the lens of a designer, let's say, right?

[00:05:46]U now because that failure is a structured part of this whole process.

[00:05:53]>> Yes.

[00:05:54]>> We at urban we think that we want to fail fast. Right. We have two seasons.

[00:05:59]We have our spring summer that we launch now.

[00:06:02]>> Yes.

[00:06:02]>> And then we will do a festive launch during Diwali again.

[00:06:05]>> Time. Yes.

[00:06:05]>> And we launch about 300 400 products.

[00:06:08]Typically like about 40% of those products fail, right? They do not get us the revenue outcome that we have expected out of them. But we know that this will happen.

[00:06:20]For that reason, we kind of invest into a different volume of product portfolio ensuring that key there is even if there is a certain amount of failure, we will still go ahead for a very specific example. I'll just give you right.

[00:06:34]>> That'll be nice.

[00:06:35]>> Yeah. So that key how much we have put a lot of effort in it but you did not really translate. So we thought that oak right oak is a wood that is well used in the west. It's a very premium wood. Yes, it has it is seen with lot of value.

[00:06:48]There's a lot of aesthetic value to it.

[00:06:50]>> We at Urban Ladder thought that KTK we'll get a range out in oak. Uh we'll make a beautiful dining table out of oak. Good design was done. We did some trend analysis overseas. We have done the right pricing. We did not price it too higher than a shisham wood product or anything like that.

[00:07:07]>> How much? Let's say as in it was about 20% higher about 30,000 rupee dining table right >> fair very very >> fair price right I think if you go to a boutique as in you'll probably pay like a lakh for it >> we thought as in other 30,000 product let's get it out the beautiful product well marketed placed in most stores but what we realized is that customer actually does not value an oak wood product in India at all uno there is that depth of grain and depth of color that comes from shisham or teik or even mango suits them more then an oak finished Scandinavian kind of a product which did not really work >> hold value in their head did not hold value >> did not hold value and what we should have done a little bit more better probably is to give them something more familiar but still in oak and then create that premiumization but sometimes as of course hindsight is 2020 So uh that thing those things do happen for us right as in now what we have decided as in for the range that we are launching now.

[00:08:15]>> Yes >> that we said we will do a similarly sleek designed product but we will do it in te >> right there is more acceptance for te I can premiumize it a little bit.

[00:08:26]>> Yes. So again we are launching a 30,000 product dining table but this time in te in an India modern sort of of finishing and material type with some brass inlays etc etc we are hoping that they will do better this >> how muchever you risk you want to take in design there has to be some some comfort some homecoming like the tear >> correct yes >> so definitely so it's a multi-geear process right the tangible product design industry or the product development process and all the gears need to run together very very smoothly.

[00:09:02]Any cranking anywhere leads to sabotaging the entire process and eventually the outcome right the effort money time all of it is getting compromised >> in a complex multi-geeared system like this >> pala >> mhm >> where do you think in general in product development tangible product development companies where do you think the intent generally gets lost >> correct see intent gets lost mostly when there is lot of lack of clarity in terms of what you're expecting out of the system. So if we are telling the system that they I want products which will make me money right as in I want this super hit products that will be desired by a lot of people uh will take off the shelves automatically but then you're telling the team that I'm going to put boundaries like I'll put a price boundary I'll put a material boundary I'll put the kind of vendors that you want you can work with I will not put any effort into my sourcing teams into my merchandising teams then fundamentally you are setting up them from failure. Right?

[00:10:16]>> Correct.

[00:10:19]>> The whole intent should just not be intent for the designer. The organization should believe in that intent and create structures around them.

[00:10:28]>> Absolutely. Today I'm telling my team that there is I think that particle board or MDF are good products but there is a customer perception that they are weak in nature which is true to a certain extent but can we do those same products in plightly >> right >> and kind of create that intent for the customer >> and yes so I've told them yes go ahead and like 20 30% higher where we can sell those products yes just use Don't give a ply wardrobe just plain ply wardrobe but create some value in to into them functional value or aesthetic value >> right >> you add those layers as well but the core proposition is of course as this is fully made for with ply >> right >> and if that is described well to the team and we give them those livers I think they will come out with good answers I could have always told them that water and same price as particle board >> I am sure as in I will they will not succeed.

[00:11:30]So that is where I feel intent gets lost most of the time. Abstract questions can be there but we need to kind of support them with enough resources absolutely >> to get the right answers out. So design should not work in silos like we do see around uh >> the whole team the framework like you beautifully explained should work with and around design and it should be used as a framework or a function rather than just a tool a mere tool >> lovely uh as UL has grown from pre- reliance to post reliance uh the scale has massively changed grown If I might say that if that's right.

[00:12:14]>> True.

[00:12:15]>> Did anything break?

[00:12:17]>> Did you change the way things work?

[00:12:20]>> How did you handle these breaks?

[00:12:24]>> Yeah, absolutely. Right. Uh very relevant question as such. Uh post Reliance acquisition which is about four four and a half years ago, right? We had a clear mandate with scale, right? We had about six stores, we wanted to become 40 45 stores. uh we had a single brand we had about 400 to 500 SKS etc. launching about 200 SKs per year the mandate was to have heavy scale and get those products out etc right >> specifically to the design team uh we had like a very hierarchal design team as design head designers designers under them decent amount of team size but was not really really delivering the kind of volumes that we wanted.

[00:13:05]>> Yeah. So instead of kind of creating more team members and kind of creating a harder structure, we went the reverse direction. Yes, we said the design team will exist but it'll become like a very linear structured design team, right?

[00:13:18]Where there will be a design head and there will be designers under him or her and they will further work with pods who are sourcing pods and category pods >> to deliver specific results. Somebody who's doing solid wood in Japur will do solid wood in Japur and deliver those results independently. and that is across the function. So we have decided to do make a very linear tone down version and today we are able to do let's say 3x 4x of what we were able to do and this is unimaginable genuinely >> right >> with a much leaner and straightforward team we are able to do that I would feel genuinely there is that intent that needs to be provided as such but uh leaner the team I sometimes feel right the more agile it is and more better ability they have to kind of give you the outcome that they have set out with.

[00:14:11]>> I think agile is the right word >> and I think like you were saying that you know it's a leaner team they can tell what they think what's going to work what's not. You can tell them you do not have need to have the barrier correct >> uh making it leaner probably allows the intent gap to reduce the leakages in the intent to reduce. I agree totally.

[00:14:37]See there is sometimes this apprehension to at least senior leaders and managers that if I have too many reporties or if I do not have the right hierarchy under me, I will be filled with so many thoughts and ideas etc. which will stifle my own thinking and the approach completely. Right? And what they tend to do is to create layers under them to kind of ensure that the layers will kind of give the results.

[00:15:07]But but I have seen that if you are not on the floor, not on the ground genuinely as for you to take deeper decisions, it gets really difficult.

[00:15:20]Right? You are not talking to the designer, you are not meeting the customers, you are not talking to the salespeople. Then if somebody's going to give you a report saying that this needs to be launched, yes, you will ask four questions. But do you have the right opinions and do you have the right thought process that is happening on the ground with you while making that decision? I don't think so.

[00:15:40]>> You have the closeness to the problem areas.

[00:15:42]>> You need to have that and it's a better thing to do. It will lead to less decision making, less mistakes and better results for sure. And it is truly enjoyable also. That is what I would feel.

[00:15:54]>> Absolutely.

[00:15:56]That's a lovely way of putting it. I think that's a great message for a lot of people out there and you know how to handle scale teams at scale.

[00:16:05]Coming to the we are we going closer to the end of our questions.

[00:16:11]Okay.

[00:16:14]>> Personally, >> how do you how do you measure if design has done well? If the function of design has done well or has given you a desired or projected output >> uh is there a metric that you follow personally?

[00:16:33]Yeah, one one thing right as in I have worked so I'm not a designer myself and this might kind of miss miss few designers uh who are watching this right is that uh designers are like a self-critical bunch right they're quite critical about what they create and I think I think it's a part of creative journey also that they flow that and I do not want to kind of overburd them them with my criticality as well So I have a very clean metric that I ask them end of every year. I tell them that yes at the beginning of the year you said that this is what we can achieve as a design team or a design individual.

[00:17:15]Now you know that the year has passed.

[00:17:17]You know what you have achieved or could not achieve. How would you rate yourself in terms of the actual achievement that has happened on the ground? What I would want to bridge here on year with them is that what intent they had gone out with and what results they were able to get. This is not to diminish the intent or try to push them to get more achievement but equip them to marry the gap.

[00:17:43]>> They should not kind of try to get an outcome which is not possible without the right resources, >> right?

[00:17:50]>> Or when they have the right resources, they should not underachieve as well. So kind of bridging that gap is what I ask them. So it is sort of an NPS score for the designers by themselves is what for me is the right metric because it's a team that is needs to be intangible in its outcome. I'm not asking them to give me tangible results like sales or anything like that.

[00:18:14]>> That's a very easy thing to ask them.

[00:18:16]But if I ask them that if they're able to create that brand identity, create that product portfolio that they have envisioned at the beginning of the year which they have dreamed, have they made their dreams come true is the largest question I want to ask.

[00:18:29]>> So basically intent of design versus fidelity to intent of design by the end of it.

[00:18:35]>> Those are the right words. Yes.

[00:18:36]>> Right. Don't you think uh partly it's just a question out loud?

[00:18:43]>> Mhm. sales or numbers also not wholly like currently we observe in the interior industry but partly numbers or the understanding of business metric should also be a K uh for the designers personally because that makes them closer to the business rather than operating as an artist.

[00:19:05]>> No, I agree with that. So any designer at urban ladder will not not have in their goal sheet right that they would launch let's say 80 to 100 products right now this 80 to 100 number right is defined by them after a certain amount of conversation with me or with the design head saying that this is the direction that we will flow towards >> this is something that we feel that is feasible >> and this is the kind of revenue outcome that we will achieve out of it >> they do have that understanding >> but the structure is always in a way wherein we are trying to pull back saying that that 8000 defined.

[00:19:42]>> Should we do a shoe rack 10 different ways or five different ways? It is for you to decide >> right >> now. Yes, the outcome is that 10 SKs will get launched or we will get let's say as in 1 crore revenue from them that is always present right we are a commercial firm we are paying salaries right we're trying to earn a profit and then try to uh enlarge stakeholder interest right we do not want them to feel that as in let me get out the design and then let's see what happens around it as this is not like a painting that they're working towards >> right >> uh but that is clear but what is the intensity that they can work with and what is the kind of outcome that they can work with is very different right I will not tell my fabric uh designer to go out and do like 200 fabrics per month right it does not make genuine sense >> I will tell her that Diwali is coming let's go a certain direction in terms of our design you tell me what is the direction you tell me if there are enough resources and vendors and fabric uh providers around. Yes. If that is true, then can we kind of SMP invest into it and let me have like four or five launches >> at the best. Now that's very different for somebody who is trying to do engineered food for me. I would say that yes, let's kind of launch 20 beds in engineered wood with different headboards. You have a base structure already present with you. Now headboard designs 20 and there's a certain direction I can give that person.

[00:21:15]>> Now the 20 is important. he can or she can come back and tell me 20 is very difficult I need two more team members for this then we'll give them those team members so that is the gap that I'm trying to kind of bridge >> right >> wherein the kind of dream should not be too away from what the reality yes which you call fidelity which is important to be present >> which is very important so a very important part for the young designers I feel is to understand u how does their design translate into a business outcome? Uh what does it take to translate design into business outcome? And that will be our last question >> or the last part of our discussion where you're a young leader Pala and I'm I'm I it's amazing to see that. uh what is your message to the younger bunch the genz's or the 20 to30s folks from design who want to join your company and uh >> I'm assuming that a lot of designers are going to watch this >> I hope so too [laughter] >> no as in and as right as I've been recently having few conversations right with few interns that had been at urban ladder and I was asking them they were at the end of their internship right I think this is their final project that they do and as a part of it I think they come to companies to do do some design work my question to them was that one is that is your work good enough that you can win your jury well right as in and their question their answer was yes as in there's more hard work we have done here than the jury would have expected and two is that will you want to come back and join urban thankfully they said yes >> so the message genuinely is that we at Urban Ladder are a company which are focused on product right and we think that designers at the forefront of the product as well and uh we want to work with as many people as possible.

[00:23:22]>> Absolutely.

[00:23:22]>> We would want to come to campuses and hire them. We would want to come and work with lot of maybe as in we run some few competitions with colleges. We we are trying to participate in the India design week as well this year and we need a lot of people for that as well right uh sometimes it is easy to go and join a boutique firm as in work under a senior designer senior craftsman and that's a journey that you can always take right it's not a bad journey but I would say if you want your designs to go to a million homes right as in you want like lots of people to kind of appreciate and use your product you will need to come to firms which value design and can kind of give you that scale as well. So always happy uh to have uh designers in the mix because [music] in the end of the day if you are product selling right there's a different kind of kick and satisfaction that the designer will also get. Are you listening interns? Are you listening students? People who are looking [music] forward to joining Urban Ladder and gain the great experience that we just spoke about and work with amazing minds like Pala himself. Please consider Urban Ladder and reach them out, hit them up.

[00:24:36]Thank you Pala. Thank you so much for coming and doing this for us.

[00:24:39]>> It was a very good uh experience.

[00:24:42][music] Thank you.

[00:24:45]Thank you.

[00:24:50]>> [music]