Free Education, Globalization & Zoning Policies | Economics Debate

[00:00:00]Oh can you hear me I can hear you a lot of clear buddy what's up all right it seems like you think we should give poor people free education but they're kind of iffy on it once it gets like higher tiers of income high it's not so okay I I should have read this tout I like I think that education like addresses several major issues in society hopefully I would have to look at extra point in it to know this but this is where I hope one I think a more educated population can make better decisions when it comes to voting so if we're talking about voting things related to like foreign policy or climate change or monetary policy whatever that like these types of things well when I say monetary was actually like economic things right do we want like high minimum wage do what I do with immigration [ __ ] like this that that more educated population could hopefully have like a better vote about that they're like a democracy powered by a smarter people is better than a democracy powered by Dumber people that's more successful with dumb [ __ ] like populist one [ __ ] so that's number one number two is the more educated workplace will naturally counter some of the shitty things that we feel as a side effect of globalization so it seems like a more globalized economy can leave lower class workers feeling a little [ __ ] right then all of a sudden the guy that used to be really good at putting shoes together he's having his job exported to another country and now he's what cuz he doesn't know what else to do so like these these two things I think are hopefully addressed by more people becoming educated that would be like my hope so as a result of that I was think like like from an early age like we should push people to move into these like higher paying like more educated job so it would be a good thing for the country to do that that's my general take away yeah so I'd say I agree with both of those points um what I'd say is when you talk about like services like something like health care education uh-huh generally in a liberal democracy it's advisable to have with a minimum level that kind of things like you want universal health care right you want some sort of like minimum level of education that every single citizen gets and for me this doesn't necessarily include post-secondary education both because I don't think that's necessary but also not everybody wants to go into post-secondary education so when people talk about free college a big problem I have is that I want like not going to college to be a viable thing right so I kind of what you we're talking about with respect to you workers being left by by glue left behind by globalization huh a thing that I like talking about a lot is there's a concept where the wage premium for a rural non college educated workers so dude in like a rural town who hasn't gone to college he is wage premium for moving to a city has like vanished over the past decade which is insane because wait real quick when you say that give me the if he moves through cities all right any more money or right exactly yeah which is crazy to me right like because if you're moving to a city you expect a bump because you got like agglomeration you've got a higher sort of nexus of economic activity and also like you know there's cost-of-living you need to be able to make more to afford it but this is essentially vanished for a wide variety of reasons but one of the driving reasons here is that people are moving it to cities to go to university and then they're staying there as opposed to like you know going back to their hometowns or whatever yeah and this to me is like a component of how bachelor's degrees are actually like a huge driver um in like inequality essentially which is not really something that people think about when they consider inequality but like a huge proportion of wage variance is driven by increasing rates of bachelor's degree attainment so my take is like I agree I think that we should have a minimum level of education and I do think that we should work hard like reform education such that more low-income people more disadvantaged minority groups are able to go into education but when it comes to things like um when it comes to things like loan forgiveness or like free college overall I think that we have both empirical demonstrations that this leads to an equitable outcomes and also that this just isn't the like it's just it's not progressive and to me the thing about Prager Civet II and policy is about like you know um sometimes we talk about the veil of ignorance by rolls mm-hmm another thing that he used in his original position was the difference principle where the idea is that you can have inequalities in a society but ideally the inequalities want to be benefiting like the least well-off in that society now you might not agree with this because that's specifically before it is like a counter to just like a utilitarian principle but to me I think that's like a really valuable way to frame progress hidden so when we talk about just like you know just you know ending like all like making college free or whatever this is like disproportionately impacting a collective of people who are middle and upper-class we're making like absurd wage freedoms a wage it has like skyrocketed over time like since I don't know about 1982 okay so okay so there are three things that that I I guess I'll talk about from this past thing our minimum level of education in the u.s. right now seems to really [ __ ] I think what is our reading level isn't it like seventh grade yeah I think I'd be like very bad yeah I think it'd be more I think I'd be more likely to agree if it seems like most people at least have like a good high school education so I could come out reading it at least not in like an undergrad level but at least like a like a cow or like a high school like sophomore junior level whatever that would be I think I feel a little bit better about that in terms of people not returning to their cities this is kind of like something that I've been like I kind of think a little bit about it but I don't know what the answer is I don't know if it's like a capitalism thing or like like cars or transportation or city planning thing why do we have to have these like hyper [ __ ] concentrated nexuses of like activity is it not possible to spread like economic development out more or does it literally have to be centered on to like you know like San Francisco New York City like Seattle like does it have to be that way why well I'd say let me thank you so I'm just I think that a phrase this so earlier in this stream I think you were talking about how you have like this principle where two people come together and like they are able to create more utility essentially by working together uh-huh so one way that I think we have to explain this it's like a principle of on economies of agglomeration so the idea that if you have a lot of firms a lot of highly educated people a lot of institutions and clustered in a certain area were able to do things like division of labor you are able to have like a lot of transactions between these companies a lot of exchange of technology and ideas which in turn is gonna make these areas more productive so this is like why cities oh yeah so this is like yeah this is super basic I understand it agree with that yeah obviously that the more institutions you have close to each other you know increase the amount of trade jobs all sorts of [ __ ] a good ship will have buddies being geographically located close whatever however not only does that have to have like a diminishing return well I'm sure it actually has a diminishing return at some point it's got to be like right we're like itself point like a like a firm that could place itself in San Francisco will be priced out such that they would actually make more money in a place like Austin or Never which is we've seen like some tech companies kind of moving around a little bit because San Francisco there's big oh whoa sorry so [ __ ] absurdly expensive to live in I guess I'd say that this is a consequence of zoning okay I think you probably agree with that is that like we have really really horrible zoning which is sort of kept in place by rent seekers I mean I'm asking you to some extent at least does it is it really just don't you know is it would it really be possible to make a city with like 50 million people they just get a bigger and bigger and bigger like want that like I mean you look at like cities in China and they're like absurd in size like cities that started from literally just tiny little free trade zones like Shenzhen and Jin Albert sprouts and then like exploded to these massive ten million population things within like 20 years or something some of the cities in like India and China are getting just really [ __ ] massive but to your point like I do agree it's not like we have to concentrate everything in these like mega cities right are you like one of the things that I used to think until I saw this like vanishing wage premium for people who move to cities and don't have college education is that essentially we should just like take all the towns and just like subsidize them to basically just like shovel them into cities and make that like a viable economic possibility uh-huh which is something that China's doing I don't think that anymore just because of like this vanishing wage premium like just putting people in these cities isn't going to in and of itself allow them to sort of prosper so there's a lot of work that people do about like how we can address the problem with these rural areas which are really the ones that are being left behind and one of the things that I see suggested a lot is essentially revitalizing like rural colleges which you can do in a variety of ways like the federal government selling these places more land giving them grants that they like build out and you get like a more skilled workforce and these smaller like I don't know 50,000 like a hundred thousand population cities so I definitely think there's a lot of room for sort of like a rural rejuvenation I've seen a lot of things including things like I'm sort of enhancing bio manufacturing there's I have like a bunch of stuff on this I can i can send you but essentially yeah the solution isn't just to continue feeding everybody into these massive cities like I do think it is important to have a policy that can address people who are left behind and more to the point people who don't go to college and are left behind like I think that they should sort of be able to to pursue like things without being like [ __ ] over sure just enough but I was curious I looked up like the popular wait so the San Francisco metropolitan area population is 7.15 million people and apparently the municipality of Chongqing Chongqing in China is thirty point five million people so yeah I mean I guess places can't get bigger yeah I mean it's also like if you think about Japan like Tokyo is considered I think it's it's the largest it's like the most economically productive city in the world it's like more than one trillion Hall if I measure if I like GDP or something and they don't I don't write like you've mentioned this a lot they have central government that just mandates zoning policy so like it is possible to have essentially these huge fittings there's concentrations about the massive economic productivity but in places like China even you're gonna have like a huge rural poor that's just left behind because they're not college educated because they can't afford to move to cities because it's just not something that they want to do or the opportunities just aren't there so it does like absolutely matter to sort of address these these fruits uh-huh but I don't know if like free college is necessarily a good way to do that like I have a lot of different ideas and positions on how we can like reform college and they get like really really granular I don't know if there isn't that kind of thing but just generally I don't think it's it's equitable and necessary to make like college free or to do on like loan forgiveness on such a large scale and like the upper-middle class are are benefiting from so much that it's essentially functioning as a as a subsidy what about um another thing that you mentioned is like people wanting to like leave rural areas why why would you ever want to stay in a rural area like why would you ever want to go get college educated in some other place and then go back to like the smaller area from how could you ever like incentivize something like that I think this is just like a sort of historical trend where like I don't know I can't quote unquote back in the day well you'd have as people who go to cities which weren't like as prosperous or huge as they are now and they like return to their hometowns because they're you know they have connections there they have job job opportunities there whatever the reason is just like a trend that has reversed I'd have to look more into it to know exactly like why people were going back but there's it like there's a lot of really weird quirks with like the amount of people who are enrolled in post-secondary education so one that I that I read about recently is that during the Vietnam War you could defer your enrollment your service by enrolling in post-secondary education so you look at glut like a huge surge in people who are enrolling in post-secondary education more ends in like in like 1982 1982 you see that this huge drop in the supply of like recent college graduates it's like from that like huge truck you have a you have like a limited supply which causes the wage from them to skyrocket essentially from like 1982 to late 2005 there just goes out like hugely or whatever so there's all sorts of weird quirks like different variables that are playing over money but it's just something that I've read is like a recent finding that people are essentially moving to cities and like staying there instead of going back or or moving somewhere else and you think that's bad because the wage premium is afforded to you by bachelor's degree doesn't make up for you moving to that city or no I I think it's a I think it's a fine thing like the problem I have is that the bachelor's degree wage premium uh-huh um I like I I wouldn't say like you know we have to bring it down because I don't even know what that necessarily entail but I think it's a bad thing that the wage premium for bachelor's degrees is so high compared to somebody who doesn't have a bachelor's degree and I think that we can address this just kind of like broadly speaking when you talk about the rising cost of education at home so when you talk about with the rising cost of education there like a few different ideas here like about why this has happened so the first one is concept in labor economics called skills biased technological change or SVTC and the basic idea here is technological growth over the past like 30 years has benefited people who have like higher skills essentially like you know if you go to college if you're building human capital you're building your own skill set in the technology that we've that we've had is like favoring this so people are going to hire you and then the second one that's really big is called on signaling where the idea is essentially just that you need a way to differentiate between the natural skills that people have in a BA is just like a good way to differentiate between people it's not necessarily saying oh this person is really skilled it's just like oh they got a BA they probably have like on average have higher natural skill so yeah so those are like the two primary ways that you know that oh that this like wage premium has has expanded enormously and on top of that like the operation essentially the opportunity cost and something that's driving like higher higher prices in education is that the opportunity cost to not get a BA has on like skyrocketed rights like if you're and this is just like another way of looking at the wage premium that they get is essentially if you just get a high school degree you're much worse off than if you if you got a BA like there there are drivers of inequality that I don't think are like like I don't know this isn't like a driver bit of quality that would satisfy something like the difference principle or whatever it's just not something that we it's something that we can that we can fix like using a variety of really well targeted policies towards lower-income people towards people who don't get a college degree one of the concepts like with respect to signalling is you have the idea that people are really trying to find different skill levels just like with these market signals or whatever and the university is essentially just charging a fee to create this signal so you have high school and then like it's skyrockets to like 4-year degree right like there's nothing in between so if you have like a proliferation of two-year degrees essentially you're reducing that this bucketing it's like these two large chunks and you kind of like smooth out the curve so employers can make like more efficient decisions so there's just like an example of something that you could do to sort of amend like the runaway inequality so you're saying that like making trade schools more so if trade schools were more if there was an increase to proliferation of trade schools in Mexico or around the United States you're saying that the cost of a four-year degree would most likely fall as a result because then you'd be catching all of the people that were trying to get some sort of education because there would be like it like there would be like some middle ground between high school and college kind of yeah exactly or even if that didn't happen you'd see like a smoothing in terms of the in terms of wage cream so a lot of people who graduate high school but don't want to go to college who might end up going to trade schools might end up getting other two-year degrees that kind of thing which I think is like I don't know valuable real quick someone it gets said it's called an associate's degree this might just be me being absurd talking I I don't know she has grease awards [ __ ] I don't think that people like it an associate's degree to be like to do like trade school stuff isn't that like different or um I'm pretty sure I mean I don't know I don't know people you're trapped right now I know they're like an associate's degree is a two-year degree trade schools might have like different kind of degrees I don't know like you could theoretically I chunk this up until you have like tiny little schools that are later just like skilled with skills specific like you go to this school for like six months and it teaches you how to weld or something right and then you have like a like a really diverse set of skill options so instead of just being like three tiers it's like I don't know 500 years or something Yorkers like that and employers can like really specifically select from these signals and you get like a much more efficient economy you get like a much much less like stratification in terms of wage premiums that kind of thing uh-huh so you're saying so to kind of like circle back and restate it like the like the original argument you're saying that making College free for everybody is bad because one it doesn't I guess it doesn't address the stratification between like having a BA versus having only some high school or only having high school is like one two that it causes people to like to move to cities or can you can you go back into why I guess I didn't fully grasp like why you think would be a bad thing yeah so that's just a general pardon with inequalities you have this wage premium so you have people who move into cities to go to university and then they stay there which is all sort of inflating cost because they have this larger wage premium and it just creates this cycle where essentially people who normally would be able to move into cities with their lower skill set and thrive actually can't wait okay I'll hold up [ __ ] I'm sorry that's so nice trim yet say that one more time I'm paying appreciate 100 that go okay so if you have a bunch of people from like a rural town who go into cities for edging for university and then the Graduate this larger wage from you inflates costs it lifts the cost of living that makes it much harder for people who don't have that kind of education to move into cities and experience sort of greater economic prosperity so you're saying that when people move into the city and they are to be and they make more money that that causes the price of everything to increase it makes it harder for other people to move it to cities in turn to be a yeah essentially or just not even like erna be a just move into a city and use like your your high school degree skillset to do whatever oh yeah that's of course that's true I'm trying to think if that's a bad thing or not you ideally you'd want people who live in rural areas who don't have like a BA to be able to sort of move into cities buy a house and just you know chill out like this is a way why it was can you as well can you defend that why I'm curious why why it's re different which one so let's say I have like a city like San Francisco which represents like some of the highest concentration of like tech wealth or whatever in the world why should I expect like a poor person to be able to move into a city like that and be able to make it without having like Ohio wake up without having a high school job why do you think that should be a thing I'm curious Oh alright so the reason I would say this is that um so first of all it's not like a poor person I think this is like kind of the wrong frame it's just about like having different skill sets I don't think that if you have on college education skill set you should essentially be locked off from being able to afford the cost of living in a city right like you know I'm a liberal so I do think that like if you want to be able to move into a city if you want to be able to live in a city you shouldn't have a cost of living that is locked down by like you know Serbian wage premium and like really restrictive zoning laws that sort of precludes you from doing that just because you have a lower like a lower skill set which isn't necessarily something that like reflects demand for that skill set it's like sort of because that's artificially massaged by things like zoning it's more of a statement of just like it's more of a principle because you're always gonna need people who like you know do plumbing or who actually that's relatively high skill I guess I along with electricians but you're always gonna need people who are able to do sort of like lower skill jobs especially when you have like a city that just grows and grows and grows if you're gonna have with these mega cities like um Chongqing or however was brownstone I mean you're gonna you're gonna need low-skilled people right so I guess it's just an idea of I don't think that a certain skill set should lock you off from being able to live in a certain part of the country so it seems like there's only two ways to deal with that then right you do have to increase the wages of those people or and all you have to decrease the cost of living specifically for those people right you have to combat it in one of those two ways well I would say not reduce the cost of link for those people specifically but just reduced the cost of well two things actually reduce the cost of living for everybody through things like zoning reform and then make it possible to sort of economically thrive in these smaller cities so people don't feel like these sort of like so I know if somebody looking to West Virginia the old town isn't like [ __ ] I have to move to a city or like you know my family's gonna starve or something yeah what do you mean when you can you elaborate I when you say make it possible to economically thrive what do you mean by that I think that so not only should you be able to move to a city if you like I don't you should be able to move to a city given like any specific skill set and like be able to actually just live there not like necessarily become like a millionaire or whatever but like you should be able to live there you should be able to have like a comfortable to me but also in rural areas we shouldn't I mean like with some exceptions maybe of like a city that's entirely built around like a dead coal mine and just has like nothing around it if you're talking about like a rural city that's like fifty thousand to a hundred thousand people we shouldn't just leave these places behind we shouldn't focus entirely on the people who want to move to cities we should focus on the people who want to stay behind for whatever reason is they choose to stay behind it's not useful to like sort of just target inequality within cities it's useful to target with them areas as well huh so this is yeah so good so like so we're talking about a worker so we're gonna talk about a high school educated worker so this is somebody that's restricted to not trea not like an electrician or car Minerva so it's like basic research it'll like service level jobs or something or jobs like minimal training right how so how would you make that you like you kind of just saying like zoning like how would you make it so that a person like that well it would have to be sounding right for a person like that no well how could you even how could you make it you'd have to zone literally based on income like if you make more than this income you literally can't live here right well hmm I don't think so I think there's there's so there's like let's say you've got a guy they can only work in McDonald's how does a person like that live in some of the most expensive districts in America like it Stanford's yeah so again um have you have you ever looked at like the extent to which rezoning inflates housing present I don't know the exact numbers but every study that I've read especially Seattle and San Francisco points to it yeah increase in the cost of yeah so I think that essentially um like there's there's a few different part like we can talk about poverty reduction policies but um I'm talking about skill sets so there's there's two things that I'd say here in the first is eliminating zoning for these sort of single-family homes is like really important because you want people to be able to build like I don't know mixed-use buildings apartments that kind of thing essentially just more house and making it so people can go more house if you want I'm more of like I'm more market oriented in this respect another pose and you could take as you could zone for affordable housing which is I think it's like a lot of cities do they don't really do it while like removing zoning restrictions which I don't really like but if you wanted you could assume you could zone for affordable housing and then also like this is unrelated from zoning but you could do like minimum wage policies so like I think minimum wage should essentially be targeted as narrowly as possible in the Geographic sense so like you should have minimum wage based on city like city to city and then I should probably be a peg to something like inflation or a Goods basket of some sorts like it's moving upwards each year like I say PIR some [ __ ] right yeah yeah so those are like the two big posies and then like we can talk about poverty reduction things but that's not really fair because I did say like low-skill not necessarily poverty but you know there are there a variety of things you can do to like ensure that you know people aren't like falling below like falling into the cracks if they're just not able to like afford what we're like still moving to like the sort of zoning deregulation process if there are still people who can't afford like you know we can do things like minimum wage we can do things like expanded Earned Income Tax Credit that kind of thing how do you feel about do you think this what if we how does like globalism affect this like if we look at terms of like the global economy are we worried about our workers being less competitive on a global level if we're not educating our entire population or did we just plan on having like so many people that we saw how I can could chuck of people that are educated can compete like in a global market or does this impact us at all yeah I yeah so I yeah I do think that it matters when you look at like so China's accession to the World Trade Organization and I think 2001 there's a lot of research that tries to see like to what extent did China essentially siphon jobs from the United States and there's like a lot of estimates that I've seen upwards of 2 million I saw a more recent thing that I think came out last year that said about 800,000 but a big takeaway that I have is essentially that more jobs have been lost to automation yeah yeah they trying to talk so I'm not like a like a yang gang or automation apocalypse type dude I don't I don't really like getting I don't like that mentality but there are two things to be said about automation which matter in the first is like short-term structural and employments that is to say in the short term technology that causes like large like large amounts of unemployment we want to have like policies that are able to address that and then this is way more important in the long term inequality like I was talking earlier about skills by his technological change the idea is that like automation can favor sort of the upper crust of society and end up like leaving people behind even more so I think that there are like sort of twin threats from globalization there are and automation but I don't think that they're like insurmountable or anything and I don't think that like I don't buy into the sort of nativist like oh you know you have to protect the workers or whatever I think that we can invest in sort of things like retraining and to be like really specific with the retraining stuff there's something like what that's called as an active labor market policy or an A&P and the United States spends like something ridiculous like 0.6 percent of its GDP on al MPs I've heard of the lowest out of the entire OB CD alright so I've read when I was doing a bunch of NAFTA research administration everything on things that dealt with programs related to that active labor market policy stuff I've read really bad stuff and that I related to NAFTA and I think that was some for other European countries won't remember specifically but I've always read really bad empirical studies related to active labor market stuff that like just retraining people just doesn't seem to work that well do you know is that not true or doesn't work in some cases all right yeah I think I so I really do like the idea of retraining and this amount specific way that I would like to see retraining administered is essentially through like a tax credit for companies like a retraining Tax Credit mm-hmm I in which I don't actually think it's like something that a lot of countries people I'm sure I understand that desire I understand the desire but like in in the empirical cities I read it basically said that like the poor thing amount of money that the United States government spent subsidizing like retraining it would have made more sense to deliver you just cut a check to those people and have them not work that we would have saved money doing it because like the success for retraining is just so incredibly low so yeah but yeah I'm not sure yeah I don't know I mean like if you've yeah I mean like I again like I haven't seen any study that was to say like I know thumbs up to retraining I've heard like a lot of really mixed reviews and it does seem like something that's like really logistical a challenging like how do you even manage that so what I would kind of default to here are um I guess I guess I would go back to like Oh mom I mean let me just think for a second there's three things that I would go back to the first is this idea of smoothing out the curve of signals so you have like different levels of degree different levels of education that people can attain I'm in order to send like signals this could be like really small like micro college tier or they could be you know those associate's degrees they could be trade schools and and of course like the four-year degree and then um I would talk about oh yeah there's like a lot of manufacturing stuff that I've seen in like Midwest states like a lot of proposals for manufacturing based on taking sort of our like our agricultural slack and feeding that into bio industrial in issues which sounds like really wacky and like mean future tier but there's a lot of stuff that talks about essentially using agricultural products as like the foundation for a new manufacturing industry which would potentially you know address things like climate change it it's just like a sort of green Manufacturing paradigm by using a lot of like agricultural products we can sort of kick-start me yeah there's like yeah it'd be interesting to read it there's a lot of like buzzwords going on there I'm not accusing one of this one of the things that would concern me about stuff like that is that and making this more like a political thing like an actual like economic or scientific thing is that those types of like agricultural memes seem to like play out in really [ __ ] cancerous ways where it turns into like a save our farms regardless of the economic impact so it seems like at one point in time we had like a a good desire to get like ethanol I guess like in our feel and whatnot and now we've got this like insanely cancerous like like blow and a global like this countrywide like subsidies on like corn and [ __ ] and that they're never gonna go away because like farmers make the [ __ ] ton of money doing it nobody wants to take it away exhibit her farmers but like I don't think ethanol based fuels in the US or even that good and if you see it was a lot of like dumb [ __ ] that like is a waste of money there that isn't like economically impactful and it's just things that we throw money at for the government cuz it's like a popular policy like is there a chance that what you're talking about could just end up that way does that make sense yeah so absolutely so the thing that you're referring to I think it's called on concentrated benefits in diffuse costs or the ideas that you have some like sugar there's like a example so you have sugar manufacturers we're getting like a huge benefit from sugar code is in the United States we have a higher sugar prices anywhere else in the world but like it's so diffuse across everybody the United States that there's no way to do sort of effective collective action and overturn that so I definitely think this is a problem but um just like pull up the thing that I was reading about it the idea is that you're you're trying to bring a cyst like you're trying to essentially craft a sustainable manufacturing industry in like rural America by using inputs like plants crops animal waste and there's like a wide I mean you'll see that sometimes where people talk about like oh you know we found a new way to make like this textile or we found a new way to make like you know this material or this input or this like finish good using on these sort of agricultural or biological inputs as well so to things like this is it one that sounds predicated on technology that doesn't exist yet right you'd have to discover these things that uses my logical puts no I think this is like a thing that's like readily still considered I mean like I know that um I know this is this is basically stuff like like hemp or whatever just like uh-huh I don't know it's like it's just not okay for sure that's okay sure so that's someone like no the second thing is it does sound like sort of big the second thing is like how do these manufacturing areas not fall prey to the same automation problems at every other manufacturing industry I was like wouldn't you still be like highly automated industries yeah they would but then again I would say that what you're doing by doing this as well just think about how to respond to this so essentially when you automate so my big belief in automation is that automation is not just gonna be like destroying jobs but it's also going to be creating them and the idea of doing this in rural areas particular is bringing like these industries whether automated or not to these rural areas is that you're going to be creating jobs that focus around like two things which is higher skilled jobs that are required to maintain these which is like something for next generation kind of thinking and as well as just like sort of low skilled jobs that focus on sort of building these things managing them and like an intermediary kind of face like it is it is a problem but like automation is is really challenging to tackle without like a firm sort of vision for how it's gonna work out in the future because they're like these higher skilled jobs like it seems like it just feeds into your prior problems like okay well we can't get the high skilled jobs in the city because a whole bunch of reasons the way that's not good and you know giving all the PAS a wage screaming center center so let's go ahead and move automation to the to the like the Midwest or like world America but now we still need college degrees we still in high school labor and like even on construction jobs I think those are becoming more and more high school like driven hoon yeah so the way that I would frame is if I had to like yeah so if I had if I had to make this more compelling I would frame it is essentially like a huge as a component of like a huge shift in the way that we're sort of doing the economy I think like you can imagine how in the United States like over time the average level of education has risen yeah the idea is right now the automation that's going to sort of galvanize a like another shift another shift Ford's in the way in like the minimum level of education at the minimum average level of education so I think that you have like these sort of large rural manufacturing rural manufacturing programs which are meant like sort of provide jobs maybe to people who can only do construction with a minds towards these educational programs that are going to support these sort of oncoming generation from not being stuck in these same like sort of dead-end Geographic positions but I I kind of I do agree with what you're saying like I think this is all really big it's hard to talk about automation with a lot of certain so I I said I had like three things I would say this is like a pretty hard sell the third thing that I would bring up I'm not okay so is essentially a point about labor unions I'm not huge like a huge Pro unions kind of person I think that a lot of like public sector unions can be pretty cancers but in the private sector I think that they can serve a really really important role and you can see like statistically how sort of I think they call it labor union density or whatever has like declined massively it's down like four percent or something that occurs so I think that if you're able to bring back unions you're able to obtain sort of a civil answer I'm looking for yeah civil society infrastructure that's able to sort of support these workers in a more holistic way which could be through like retirement or could be through like maybe more effective retraining there like more effective job allocation or even like you know bargaining for for better wages they've been like you know massively powered with it it is like a really challenging issue though like I don't have a perfect solution - huh okay something interesting that I would mention and this is not at all a reflection of how free college in the United States we go just to kind of like go back to the initial topic is um there's this concept where if you make College free what ends up happening is you get a lot of mill and upper-class people who start to apply to really selective programs and what this ends up doing is it ends up crowding out lower-income people so essentially free college results without sort of sufficient funding without the support that you would have to give to lower-income people it results in this paradigm we're a bunch of wealthier people are essentially being selected for more selective programs because they have on average like you know better test scores or whatever would you say like merit problem and this can be observed by this this is like a thing that happened in England actually where they have like free college up until 1998 yeah I did you send me an did you email me this I don't think I did okay so yes somebody emailed me this study that basically yeah there was free college in England and then they started to put a charge on tuition and that like every metric like got better that because people were on crowded out like poor people were crowded out like the sort of the metrics like expand like in terms the difference between their degree attainment in the retain wealthier people had extended massively and this was also something that you can see in on Sheila you can see this happening in Chile and then this is also a concern we don't know yet but this is a concern for New York's program so they have something called like the Excelsior scholarship that they passed in 2017 which is an idea that gives like free that makes public schools free essentially right and the problem with this is um it's like it's it's insufficiently funded it's not with like sufficient care to lower-income students so if you really want like a lot of free college program like you have to structure it really well like you have to make sure you're covering all your bases because if you're not covering all your bases you're gonna end up with this crowding out problem that New York might suffer because you know it doesn't have any additional funds promise for low-income students there's no additional funds promised to institutions that like start suffering from this problem and if you don't have it like really well figured out you're gonna be kind of fun in my fear in the United States is that like sort of given the [ __ ] that you have like I know Republicans repealing the individual mandate for instance you're gonna have a lot of trouble like making sure that this free college program continues to like function in the way that it was intended to function so there's a lot of things and I think we should do which would bolster sort of lower income people that would bolster you know black and Hispanic people but like the free college thing unless it's like really well executed it's gonna run into this crowding out problem and even if it is really well executed you're still gonna have this huge like inequality problem can you and then can you say one more time when you say huge inequality problem do you just made that like upper class people can take advantage more of like the opportunity to get educated for free or yeah I essentially I mean that more more middle income and upper income people are going to college and they are reaping the benefits of this be a wage premium that like you know poor people just aren't going to be able to benefit as much from [Music] and I think also like there's a lot of um there's a lot of critiques of like the role that student debt plays and sort of slowing down the economy that can be addressed with like sufficient sort of policy so like in in warrens medium piece where she was talking about well you know I like when like I disagree with a lot of her things for like you know I'm I'm from Boston she's my senator I do like her she's bringing some ideas that I like particularly respect to the Foreign Service but um the like State Department uh-huh but you know she says like home ownership as a problem which I think like again I strongly think this is like a zoning issue um and also like the study that she cites talks about how like the the financial the Great Recession caused problems with like underwriting student debt it just like made it like a less sort of valued asset and then like a big one that she talks about is entrepreneurship and this is like one that I think is really salient the idea that like student loan debt prevents you from starting a business if you want to start it and I think that it's really interesting because you can look at Hillary Clinton's flatworm in 2016 which I don't know some people might see it's like disastrous not her run which definitely was but her platform where she talks about this and the thing is she essentially recommends is allowing like deferment of loans for loan forgiveness for people who are intent on starting your business which to me is like a really good idea if somebody is like intent on being an entrepreneur if you can like defer their loans or you can like alleviate their burden this is like a really good incentive in my opinion well it's not impossible to you signal the creation of a bunch of shitty businesses though they'd either fail and cause more economic disparity for the people do that make sense no yeah that does make sense I think it's definitely a possibility but I do think that I think would be really hard to do like a study on this but I don't know I think it's something that's like worth exploring I like the idea of being able to alleviate the negative impact of student loans on businesses a way that you could do this is you could look at like the sort of traditional rates of student loan like wait and you could see how has it changed how the like how the rate of new businesses changed and then you could like look at the sort of failure rate as well and you could maybe do some I don't know you it would be really hard but you could use like some econometrics work there that would like determine whether or not the change in student loan debt load like affected the rate of failure of new businesses or something oh yeah oh actually studying it like what you've been acted it would be good I just that would be like a thing I'd be worried about no I'm saying like your your concern is definitely yeah the more that I've like looked at it and come back on other issues I legitimately feel like zoning laws are some of the worst policy sorry the more that I like look at like different issues and the more kind of come back like the more strongly feel that like zoning laws are some of the worse things that exist in the United States right now that the way that zoning works just like something that's fun yeah much I mean I totally agree like not just in terms of economic outcomes but just like historically I was like a narrative it's just like a horrendously racist policy it always has been like it's just yeah they're pretty terrible they're like literally choking choking out the American economy in a lot of ways I mean I don't mean like you know if we got rid of certain laws we'd suddenly be growing at like 4,000 percent GDP or something ridiculous but that alongside like immigration these are two things that [ __ ] over I think have really hurt our economy you know like if we had more liberal immigration and we had like better zoning laws I think is really two keys to unlocking like a lot of economic prosperity that sort of just subdued right now well I don't think the problem of the American economy right now it doesn't seem to be economic prosperity as much as just your distribution of economic prosperity like isn't our GDP per capita still like pretty high compared to other countries yeah we're all the cities really yeah so it's like it's not that we're not earning enough money we just not we don't distribute it well on society it seems I mean like I'd say so but I would also say that there is like a lot of sort of latent growth that we could achieve with certain reforms and that latent growth would in and of itself help sort of sponsor a lot of these distributional programs so that I don't well yeah but the problem it seems to be is that like the like the capital order in society today capital is so efficient that like when you talk about increasing immigration right you're increasing the resource of labor that is most like most easily taken advantage of by other like by other capital owners right so it seems like you would just grow that wealth divided like greater and greater greater and if we don't have like the wasted to redistribute any of this wealth that we're just like you need for GDP per capita our overall efficiency probably rise but I don't know that necessarily is creating better outcomes for the average American um I don't know I think I disagree they're like I think they like there is definitely a prompt like with automation there is a problem with immigration in terms of inequality but I do think that like in general immigration is something that is going to lift the boats for all my lifts like it more for solid I would go back I would appeal to the center to the dude-ness parents believe if we can structure immigration in such a way that it is beneficial to move it well off and on well actually no you know I wouldn't also like yes I like immigration lists to boats the lawsuit that I do think a linking yeah yeah so like if you immigrate here you're saying yeah immigration lists to folks a lot if you immigrate here then you are then than you are you're making a lot more right so the immigrants benefit dramatically if you own a business here and you have more labor available to you or cheaper level to you you benefit romantically but then like that that one group of people we talked about so and any kind of papers it seems like it is the it is the high school the the person who's educated with either little or no high school education or like a high school education with no college like these are the people that end up becoming like impact is slightly by immigrant labor and then bringing more and more immigrants would probably increased the impact on these people so your middle class benefits somewhat and your upper class dramatically benefits sure so I'd say to me this is like a it's like a first-order impact of immigration but like then if you go on beyond that you're gonna see like increased returns to things like consumer prices you're gonna see increased returns to just the overall health of economy which is Oh overall health of the economy just something that's going to UM I don't know essentially everybody I do think you think it is a problem you know like like you said most studies seem to demonstrate that like there's a negative impact on wages for the sort of like lowest educated in society but I think um I'm not positive I have to go back and look at it but I think that like the card paper that were buts or house on the Miami boatlift it says that um like those those wage differences like disappear after time well you know that doesn't necessarily resolve this problem but I guess it's just looking at it like that it seems like a big part of that is like the cities they choose as placebos to draw their comparisons yeah yeah I mean like it's yeah it's a long debate I in favor of card over whorehouse but that's probably just because I'm like biased in favor of more immigration huh yeah I don't know I mean like it's certainly problem I know that you have like the belief that it's really challenging to do something like total open borders and have like a sort of welfare state or just like you know a lot of social policies that can do that that can sort of help the lowest levels in society I don't know if I necessarily agree with that I mean I think it's possible you just have to like be somewhat restrictive like I don't think you should love somebody immigrate here and then immediately apply for subsidized housing immediately apply for free health care and not work like that would probably be a bad thing you wouldn't want a whole bunch of people choosing to immigrate here just to take advantage of social services and not work right I'd be really bad yeah no probably I mean like you can do this with things like means-testing the programs though which like runs into other problems that people talk about like you know means-testing a lot of sort of like welfare programs uh-huh can help do that yeah I don't know like I I'm I'm more to the right of you economically but I wouldn't call myself like a fiscal conservative I think it's like a useless label I'm not like fiscally conservative they're just like other outcomes that I care about more so I don't know I'm not too worried about like you know spending a lot to make like really well targeted and really efficient sort of welfare programs which i think is like something that's very doable um okay okay well hey I'll keep this in mind for my future conversations yeah yeah thanks laude what yeah I've got one less thing I've gotten in sister I can say but you've never heard before alright alright so do you know what exoti and in dog nope never heard of a choir all right so um when you talk about marriage just a relationship relationships in general the idea of exhuming is the idea of like marrying outside of your group and then you have endogamy who's marrying within your group right okay so if we're structuring a society like through like you know in a veil of ignorance sense right like a regional position neckroll um we're talking about a society that we want to make have like the best outcomes possible essentially if we have a norm of exam II dog me being morally equivalent we're going to end up with is a situation where people are essentially like having relationships with each other like you know with like familial relationships with each other and the problem with this is that if you track out like this or development of civilization of human civilization like the big leap is essentially people leaving their family clans in starting to intermarry with other family clans so if you want to establish like a functional society what you're going to want to do is you're gonna want more of exoti be preferable to endogamy because this is no way to create larger society societies they're able to do things like division of labor more effectively agglomeration more effectively it's essentially like an economies of scale argument from a demographic perspective so the problem with this is that if you believe that like incest in orally neutral what you have to prescribe is a norm of exoti being equivalent and dogyum ii which is why the result in inferior outcomes because you're gonna have a situation where certain clusters of people are more insulin so there i think this is why it's not like you'll see in a lot of US states in the catholic church have like a sort of exotic floor like a minimum level will like you can only marry your cousin would mean you need to have something like this because otherwise you're gonna have these through familial clans and never get broken up and aren't able to sort of like expand themselves and grow essentially building like stronger and more resilient societies that are able to accomplish work yeah i mean so so one this isn't a normative framework is consequentialist right you're looking at the outcomes yeah which is fine yet because that would be my framework however from from a prescription point of view everything you're making sense works if the variable that we're most concerned with is maximizing the best positive outcome for society but i think that's a really scary / dangerous thing to do from from any utilitarian perspective because i think it's a quick jump to get from from that to things like slavery or organ farming or like horrible things right well as soon as we say somebody ought to ought to be morally prescribed an action based on a better outcome for society like like theoretically you could take that same hour let's say like in societies where people go to the hospital and seppuku themselves you know they can save 20 people with their organs and so in society like we should have people to ritually do this like you know every every week I don't know that would there be like my issue have that argument yeah I see that I'm just I'm just thinking like from your perspective if you're talking about creating a society there's like beneficial to you know it seems like you'd want to create a society essentially where people like spread out where you have like you know the concept of multiculturalism already have the concept of cultural and social globalism where people are interlinking with others you have like you know less bigotry you have like less um sort of like internal ism where people are less sort of locked up in these endogenous relationships so I see your point but I do think that if you have a like a norm or you want a sort of more united world a world that is like more more cohesive without having like these are nativist clusters you would probably end up favority Kazhagam ii oh you know almost almost definitely from from like an actual like societal perspective yeah I think incest is bad for a number of reasons yeah well yeah 100 percent yeah you wouldn't want a society where everybody just starts to like [ __ ] married within their own family like that would cause like a pretty bad breakdown in a number of ways yeah they the only reason I did the the only reason I did the incest argument yeah it's kind of a manager yeah most people have like I think most people work within dance illogical frameworks whether they're cognizant of it or not most people think like things are bad just because they are amongst as far as they go so it's kind of fun to push somebody into like really thinking about that we would like the answers recommend but yeah from like a societal perspective everybody gets to incest I mean there'd be a lot of problems related to that for sure for sure yeah alright um if you ever want to talk about foreign policy in the future you know I'm I'm like much further to the right on that I'm a huge intervention is so that I can like you know dab on the commies in your chat or whatever if you ever talk about em yep thanks for oh yeah thanks for you know dude yeah thanks for the conversation buddy I'll keep an eye in check alright that commercials I look very much oh wait there look they're arguing about which way to go these guys are not happy with this decision