Ultra-Processed Plant-Based Foods: Fact vs. Misinformation

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[00:00:46]Hey everyone and welcome to this episode of the Disclosure Podcast. In today's episode, I am thrilled to be joined by Milana Mallerich. Milana is an expert when it comes to information around plant-based alternatives, the ultrarocessed conversation, and around sustainability and farming and agriculture in general. She has a BA in environmental studies from St. Mary's College of California and a masters in science, which is in relation to environmental studies, global food security, global food systems, and sustainability from the University of Edinburgh. Milana also was awarded the best dissertation prize for her work on household food waste behavior during the co 19 pandemic. Milana has been working in the intersection of food and sustainability for over 10 years now and she is a co-founder of the rooted research collective which is a group of multidisciplinary academics who are working to sort of transform research insights into datadriven and strategic policies that can be implemented to help create a sustainable plant-based future.

[00:01:49]Milana is currently working towards her PhD and I am so thrilled to be joined by her today. So, thank you so much Milana for for joining me on the podcast.

[00:01:58]>> Thank you, Ed. It's great to be here.

[00:02:00]>> I want to talk about a wide range of different things. I mean, there's so much we can talk about obviously and your work really encompasses such a wide variety of different subjects that we could probably film 5 six hours worth of content and only really scratch the surface. But I guess what I think is probably of most interest right now is maybe this conversation around UPF's ultrarocessed foods. I know that you published a report last year looking at ultrarocessed foods and of course the conversation around plant-based alternatives on ultrarocessed foods. But before we dive into that, maybe the first question is how do we how do we define what an ultrarocessed food is?

[00:02:37]>> Yeah. So that question is a bit more contentious than you might think. Um, and a lot of researchers are trying to figure out this at this moment.

[00:02:48]Ultrarocessed foods are kind of what you think about when we think about junk food. So generally that's how they're presented in the media. So think about like crisps, hot dogs, cakes, and you know processed candies and things like that, sodas as well. And that's how they're presented in the media. But um actually the designation of ultrarocessed foods is a bit more complex and in order to kind of delve into the varying definitions of ultrarocessed foods, we really need to talk about the NOVA system. So the NOVA system was created in 2009 by Dr. Carlos Montero. He was a Brazilian researcher.

[00:03:30]And the kind of quick history and backstory there is he noticed that there were a lot of foods coming into Brazil, coming from the global north, coming from kind of global multinational companies and they were undermining the local food system. And so that's kind of the impetus for his um creation of the NOVA system, which puts foods into different categories based on their level of processing. The NOVA one classification is minimally processed or unprocessed foods and these are generally um like vegetables um whole cuts of meat, things along those lines.

[00:04:13]The next level is Nova 2, which is processed culinary ingredients. And this is maybe like your oils, um, butter, fats, things along those lines. And then the third categorization, Nova 3, is processed foods. So these are foods that resemble Nova 1 foods. So for example, um, like a processed meat or a canned fish, something along those lines. And then we get to Nova 4. These are the ultrarocessed foods. And they have a somewhat complicated definition. um they tend to be obviously heavily processed.

[00:04:48]Um some of the other definitions include, you know, a wide range of ingredients that you wouldn't usually find in your kitchen. Um and they tend to be higher in salt, fat, sugar content and may encourage overeating. So those are the kind of broad categorizations.

[00:05:09]So I guess what's interesting about this conversation is when we talk about ultrarocessed foods, the initial thing is is to say, well, look, this is this is obviously a conversation has lots of merits. We should be shifting away from these foods. And that clearly makes sense when we're talking about shifting from cookies, donuts and sweets to say fruits and and vegetables and pulses and such. But I suppose one of the things that perhaps your research has touched upon, well, I know it certainly has and is an area that that that my work touches upon from what people say to me, is the idea that plant-based alternatives become a factor in this narrative because they are by definition ultrarocessed. And I suppose if we have this sort of broad perspective that ultrarocessed is bad and unprocessed is good, then that leads to the conclusion that sort of alternative meat products must therefore be bad for us as a consequence of them being ultrarocessed.

[00:05:59]Is is that too simplistic or does that ring true?

[00:06:02]>> I mean, I think that sums it up. Um and and that is one of the contentions with the um processing and the NOVA system is that it really categorizes foods based on its level of processing. And you might notice when I was explaining them, I'm talking about um you know, I'm talking about processing. I'm talking about foods that are um you know, heavily marketed, foods that are like unhealthy. But one of the things that the NOVA system doesn't cover is like there's no specific sort of indication from a nutrition point of view, right?

[00:06:35]>> Like so you're categorizing food based on level of processing, but nutrition is really not considered. And that's why we have products that may be less healthy and are less healthy, such as like butter or red meat in a Nova 1 or two classification, which then kind of in my opinion creates this artificial halo around animal products. Whereas plant-based meat will often end up in the ultrarocessed category, but when you're looking at it at them compared to um you know, their animal counterparts, they tend to be healthier from a nutrition perspective. So, it's very complicated.

[00:07:11]>> I mean, it is it is complicated. I suppose the issue is it's so is so reductive if if we're not looking at nutrition outcomes or health outcomes and and nutritional profiles of these foods and we're we're simply categorizing them based on whether or not they they technically fall under the ultrarocessed category. That's not only unhelpful when it comes to sort of looking between unprocessed and processed. It's also un unhelpful when we're looking at different types of processed foods because surely it must like not all ultrarocessed foods are the same in terms of their health outcomes anyway. Obviously cookies and donuts are going to be worse than other foods that might be classified as ultrarocessed. So how how do consumers make informed choices when when the information they've been given is is often so simplistic?

[00:07:55]>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's part of the trouble and we're seeing this even in research that's come out recently in the last I think in the last year there was a really large overview of um different papers that were identifying the health implications of ultrarocessed foods. And you might remember some of the headlines from this paper. It was like 32 different diseases associated with ultrarocessed foods including um you know heart disease and diabetes and even mental health issues. It was a pretty like there were some pretty scary conclusions in that overview. But then when you look at the paper and the and the breakdown of the different products they were looking at, you can see that they not all ultra ultrarocessed foods contributed to those health outcomes.

[00:08:41]Some of them such as like um fortified breads, that was one of them, actually had the alternate impact. They tended to make people more healthy. So even in in these studies what we're seeing is the results are inconclusive. We can say generally like a lot of ultrarocessed foods may contribute to un you know unhealthy dietary outcomes but it really depends on the category of the product.

[00:09:07]>> Yeah absolutely. It's interesting you say that. I think there is this I suppose wider grouping of these foods which inevitably leads to conclusions that are not necessarily substantiated.

[00:09:17]And I remember last year, I think it was, there was this study that was released and it was looking at four different categories. Um, ultrarocessed plant sourced foods, um, unprocessed plant sourced foods, and then unprocessed animal sourced foods and ultrarocessed animal sourced foods. And, uh, in the ultrarocessed plant sourced foods, there was meat alternatives, but it only made up 0.2% of the calories that were consumed. And within that same category was sweets and biscuits and cakes and vodka as well was included in that category.

[00:09:43]>> Soda, I think, also fantastic study.

[00:09:46]Yeah. And um unsurprisingly it showed that when you increase the intake of of these foods, your risk of certain chronic diseases was shown to increase as well. Um but the headlines that were run were all about the alternatives. And I remember the Telegraph, of course, the Telegraph, the Telegraph ran this article. It was an opinion piece by a farmer and it was headlined vegans are slowly killing themselves because of this study which showed that the increased intake of these foods increased the risk of certain chronic diseases even though only 0.2% 2% of it was meat alternatives. And within the meat alternatives was tofu, which is not by most standards even ultrarocessed and certainly is not considered to be unhealthy. So even within the meat alternatives, which only made up 0.2% of the calories consumed were healthy alternatives, were like object more objectively healthy alternatives. But it's crazy that we can then lead with these headlines and consumers see this and their perception of this study is, oh, by the way, these alternatives are going to kill you. And what was also overlooked is within all four of the food categories looked at, the unprocessed plant-based diet was actually shown to be the healthiest and reduce chronic disease risk.

[00:10:48]>> That did not make the headlines.

[00:10:49]>> Did not make the headlines. So really the headline should be, hey, you know, unprocessed plant-based diets the healthiest for you. Um, processed plant-based diets when they contain obviously unhealthy foods are not good for you, right? Fair enough. But that's not what the consumer was given or the or the reader was given. So it it sort of perpetuates this this assumption and this narrative which is really negatively impacting the progression of the plant-based food sector and indeed even the progression of people making healthy choices more generally.

[00:11:16]>> Absolutely. And this narrative has really taken hold in like our public perception. There was a study that came out recently that indicated that a third of all consumers associate plant-based products with being ultrarocessed. this um sort of identifying alt alt protein as ultrarocessed has been growing. Um I think the Boston consulting group identified it early on maybe 3 years ago. Um and then there there was a study that our team did as well which looked at ultrarocessed foods and plant-based diets and you can really see um sort of the increase in conversation around this in um online discourse and also the declining sentiment around plant-based diets. So we are definitely in a time right now where this narrative has taken hold in the public perception and is really complicated for many reasons.

[00:12:10]>> Yeah. And I I suppose maybe one thing is sometimes people when you sort of start to defend alternatives they they correctly say hang on these foods aren't the healthiest foods you can consume.

[00:12:21]Clearly they're not you know clearly there are issues around them. So is there is there a sort of a nuanced perspective here which sort of maybe starts to reframe planted alternatives as not being as bad as maybe people say but clearly can can improve in certain ways as well. So, the study that we did a couple years ago that you referenced, um, kind of one of the big outputs was it's quality and quantity, not category.

[00:12:45]So, plant-based products are nuanced.

[00:12:47]They have different ingredient profiles.

[00:12:49]And, um, you know, a plant-based deep fried nugget is still a plant-based deep fried nugget. And if you're eating that instead of a bowl of broccoli, I'm not a nutritionist, but I mean, >> yeah, >> you know, there are health implications there. But when you look at the research that's looked at plant-based products and ultrarocessed foods and has tried to kind of dig into the the nuance that exists there, we see that overwhelmingly plant-based products are healthier, the meat products that they're trying to replace. So, there was one study that looked at like Neutracore labeling and the plant-based uh burger that contained a soy and mop protein, so fungus based, found its way into the B category, which is more healthy. Um, a pebbased burger found its way into the C category, so slightly less healthy, but the beef burger ended up in the D category, which is one of the least healthiest. However, the beef burger would be considered like a more whole unprocessed product, whereas like a mop protein burger would be considered ultrarocessed. So, it really has to do with the quality of the product, not the processing category.

[00:14:04]>> It's interesting, and I guess that's one of the dangerous elements of this is we know from nutrition science that processed meat is among the worst.

[00:14:11]>> Yeah.

[00:14:12]>> But the nutrition science also shows that unprocessed red meats >> still contributes to chronic disease.

[00:14:17]maybe not as much as processed meat, let's say, but still significantly so, and that the consumption of unprocessed red meat is still going to be potentially a problem causer if you consume enough of it throughout your life.

[00:14:28]>> But the the I I I feel at least from the conversations that I see and that I'm involved in, that now people have the perception that choosing an unprocessed red meat burger, for example, is going to be healthier than choosing, let's say, you know, a Beyond Meat burger. But that's not what the actual scientific literature shows. But people aren't driven by the scientific literature, let's say. They're driven by emotion and they're driven by sensationalism and they're driven by viral content online.

[00:14:55]And it's easier for or it's easy for influencers and for people who who create content to speak about half truths and and to miss out important pieces of information and to create a wider narrative that informs people in such a way as to create the assumption that these foods are going to be worse for you. when in actuality the research that's that's been done so far and is continuing to be done shows that >> even though they're not necessarily the healthiest foods but there's still a step in the right direction from the animal-based counterparts there >> absolutely and again it really depends on the product that you're consuming and I I will note that one study that was done in the UK um showed that I think it was about a third of all the plant-based products were higher in sodium than they should have been. But something also to note there is that when you're buying a plant-based meat burger, it's already been preseasoned. Um the sodium content has already been added into the product.

[00:15:45]And so if you're buying beef mints, all of those ingredients are added later on.

[00:15:51]I haven't seen any studies that have like compared sodium content post cooking the products to see if maybe it's a little bit more aligned. But it's something to keep in mind. And I don't want to suggest that just because something is plant-based, it's automatically like better for you. Um, but the research certainly shows that generally these products are healthier than the animal products that they're trying to replace.

[00:16:14]>> That's actually really interesting. I've never considered that before that I suppose when we when we buy pre-made food, prepackaged food or or we're buying these alternatives, there is the seasoning already added in the sense they're preseasoned, but if you're buying something like like a mint or something, you're seasoning it during the cooking process or for people who do. So, it would be interesting to see if those levels are comparable by the end of the the cooking process. If people are just buying sort of a Beyond Mints or a plant-based alternative mint and they don't season through the cooking, but people who are buying the the unprocessed red meat maybe are, what does that mean for the ultimate product at the end of it? Fascinating. I've never really considered it.

[00:16:49]>> I really want someone to do a study on this. So, if any of your listeners are interested, I would love to. I'm just very busy right now.

[00:16:56]>> Yeah, I can imagine. But that that would certainly be quite interesting. Um perhaps then we can talk about the issue of marketing and and you we were speaking before about sort of this artificial halo that's sort of emerged around unprocessed meat, let's say. But I think maybe part of the problem, maybe you'll agree or disagree, was that there was this artificial halo around alternatives maybe six or seven years ago where they were being positioned as this uh incredible revolutionary food technology. Did that open the door to this criticism in a in a way that potentially wouldn't have happened if if they were kind of positioned as more of an alternative from an ethical perspective or even maybe a sustainability perspective? Did these indust did these companies sort of open the door to allow this sort of rhetoric to emerge?

[00:17:39]>> Yeah, that's a really interesting question. It's something it's something I think about a lot. I don't know. I mean it it is possible that some of the early positive response was due to like the hype cycle. It's a new it's a new product. It's really innovative. It's really exciting and people were kind of happy to jump on board. You know, it's it was kind of like an elite product too. You had to go to like a special restaurant to get it. in. But it's also possible that like the incumbent product meat has such a stronghold on our like culture and history and nostalgia that as soon as like some of these kind of rumblings started to emerge, it was a lot easier for people to jump on board with this idea that it was ultrarocessed and maybe not healthy for you and maybe eating conventional meat is better for you. I don't know. I guess that's my answer. Um but what we are seeing now is kind of um a diverging in the industry.

[00:18:37]So we're starting to see some companies try to position themselves as more healthy by including less ingredients or more healthy by kind of promoting themselves as not processed in the same way which kind of reinforces the complications that we've already talked about with processing not being a really good indicator of nutrition. But I also from like a business perspective can understand why they might be trying to differentiate. This narrative has really taken hold and consumers are afraid of ultrarocessed foods.

[00:19:07]>> It's interesting when you're saying that the the example that springs to my mind is the example of plant milks.

[00:19:13]>> Yeah.

[00:19:13]>> Um I think generally speaking there's this idea that plant milks are are mostly okay. I don't think they come under the same criticism as as planted meat alternatives, but they do come under some criticism. And one of the criticisms they can face is is around sort of additives. And one of them is is gel and gum. And people go, "Oh, gum, right? This this obviously means it can't be good for you." And there are certain plant-based companies and certain plant-based milk alternatives that kind of position themselves as being these great healthy products because they contain three ingredients or maybe almonds, uh, water, and a pinch of salt or something. and they go, "Right, this is these products are healthier because we don't we don't have the junk, the fillers, the additives."

[00:19:48]And you go, "Okay, well that that makes sense. That aligns with the sort of the common rhetoric that exists now around these foods." And then you go, "Okay, these plant-based alternatives, these milk alternatives that have say gel and gum in them." And you go, "Okay, well, does that mean it's it must be worse then?" And then you realize, actually, the reason the gel gums in there is so that calcium can be fortified, can be can be added so the the plant milk can essentially be fortified. Yeah. Yeah, >> because without it the calcium would kind of separate, sink, so it allows it to be dispersed. It allows you to have a smooth textured plant milk.

[00:20:18]>> And you go, okay, so jelling gum, right?

[00:20:20]And I was looking into this and it just completely blew my mind because jelling gum is considered to be a safe food additive. And they did a study where they gave people quantities that were 30 times higher than you'd get on average through diet alone. And even at quantities 30 times higher, there was no negative health outcomes that were shown during the study period. So then you go right, you have this safe food additive that you can consume in far higher quantities than we do and still not have health, you know, negative health outcomes and it's added into the plant milk so that we can get calcium in there and and it could be fortified. So then the question becomes what's healthier?

[00:20:51]Um an almond based plant milk, let's say that's just almonds, water, pinch of salt, or an almond based plant milk that's those ingredients, let's say, but also gel and gum and calcium. And I think what alarms me is people will assume that the minimal ingredients milk is is going to be better, but you're missing out on an essential nutrient.

[00:21:09]And if you're going from cow's milk to a plant-based alternative, and let's say your main source of calcium was dairy before, predominantly the cow's milk that you had in your cereals, whatever it may be, and you're not replacing that, then you could end up becoming deficient in an essential nutrient. and and and it becomes this paradoxical thing where it's actually the food that's technically ultrarocessed that is ultimately the healthiest one because by consuming that you're getting an essential nutrient that you wouldn't get otherwise. Y >> and I go I was thinking to myself, this is this is kind of scary and dangerous because people have been misinformed and and and in a way, much to my frustration, some plant-based companies are perpetuating this narrative just to try and promote their own products, which seems unethical because it's maybe actually harming consumers, then that's a personal, as you can probably tell, that's something that I was reading about and I was going, "Ah, this is this is not this is not acceptable, I don't think."

[00:22:02]>> No. And I think that brings up a really important point is that these additives often are there for like biofortification or fortification of some in some way. Um and that reminds me of an example. I was at an event the other night and I was talking to a nutritionist about this. um and she works in like um low salt, like she's trying to help um folks that are at risk to like reduce their salt intake. And some of the additives they use instead of salt to make foods still taste appealing would technically kind of move the product through the ultrarocessing categorization or processing categorization and land them in ultrarocessed foods. But for consumers who are at risk of high sodium, it's really important that they choose that product. And so if they're coming to the, you know, to the store with this idea in mind that they need to reduce their ultrarocessed food intake, they might be similarly to your milk example, choosing products that are like putting them at risk for high sodium >> because they're trying to avoid something that is more processed because it might have an ingredient that they don't understand because that's one of the designations, right? like >> right >> ingredients we don't understand long ingredient list ingredients not found in our kitchens. So it it's incredibly frustrating.

[00:23:20]>> Yeah, it is, isn't it? And that's another great point that you touch upon which is there's this idea that if you can't pronounce something or spell something, you shouldn't be eating it, right?

[00:23:29]>> Which basically rules out almost everything because the chemical names for most things are beyond most people's spelling comprehension, you know, mine included. I look at sort of the the technical names for B vitamins and vitamin E and omega-3 fatty acids.

[00:23:41]>> Yeah.

[00:23:42]>> And you look at those and you go, "Right, where do I even start with this?" But these are essential nutrients. But but if instead of saying ALA, it said alpha linoleic acid or something. You go, "Oh, alpha linoleic acid acid. That doesn't sound good. I I surely don't want to be consuming that."

[00:23:57]And you can pray upon people's ignorance sounds like a strong word.

[00:24:01]Being ignorant is not inherently a bad thing. It we don't know everything. And so we're always ignorant about things we don't know. And and people are undeniably going to be ignorant around chemical names and certain scientific um narratives and topics because yeah, these are complex subjects. But if you're a campaigner, you are someone who is looking to create misinformation campaigns. You can use that to your advantage and pray upon people. And we were speaking a little bit outside before about Center for Consumer Freedom. One of the things, and I'll let you speak about them in more detail in a moment, but one of the things that they did really well is is is weaponizing methyl cellulose as an ingredient that you should be avoiding.

[00:24:39]And they said methyl cellulose when you consume too much of it can cause diarrhea or something like that. And it's like, yeah, sometimes it's prescribed to people who are constipated and it's actually prescribed to people, but but consuming methylus in the burger is not going to cause you to to have diarrhea or have these these these health ailments. I'll let you speak about the center of consumer freedom because it it's a fascinating example of of how that can be weaponized in such a way.

[00:25:03]>> Yeah, absolutely. The methyl cellulose debate is really fascinating. I mean methyl cellulose is just it's cellulose, right? Like which is what cell walls are made of in plants. Absolutely.

[00:25:15]>> Anyway, um center for consumer freedom is a really interesting example of the way this has been weaponized and I think very successfully weaponized. The organization is headed by a man named Richard Burnham. Um, who has ties to tobacco and I mean, you can find all this online. It's it's it's actually a really dark hole that I wish I never had to go down, but I had to for research.

[00:25:39]Basically, they set up this organization, Center for Consumer Freedom, and they really started promoting these ideas that plant-based products were unnatural, really highlighting ingredients that consumers didn't understand, like math cellulose, and had a really successful campaign.

[00:25:55]They did a Super Bowl ad. Um, they had big um adverts in prominent newspapers.

[00:26:03]And I I do think that some of this ultrarocessed narrative can be and it's like hold on the the public and its connection to plant-based can really be connected to that specific campaign. It is also like known and you can find out online that some of the members of center for consumer freedom are connected with meat lobby.

[00:26:24]>> I like to think of these people as sort of mercenaries for hire. This guy runs center for consumer freedom. He's worked with sort of anti- um he's worked with alcohol companies or the alcohol industry to sort of go push back against >> mothers against drunk driving. How can you go against mothers against drunk driving? And also did he go against PETA as well?

[00:26:44]>> This really highlights, I think, how well he he works and how well his organizations work. There's this campaign called Peter Kills. And a lot of people now associate Peter with being an organization that that kills animals.

[00:26:56]And the reason for that is they have sort of shelters and often what Peter do is they take animals in that no other shelter will accept and they euthanize them. And actually Ingred um new new Kirk I think is her name um the the founder of Peter she originally started working with animals in an animal shelter and she euthanized the animals herself because she saw other people doing it and thought that they would weren't treating them with respect and so she did it in a way because she knew that she could be as compassionate as possible. So her her roots are actually in that. Anyway, the idea of euthanizing animals is a really complex one, especially when we talk about dogs and cats. It makes most people uncomfortable. But the problem isn't that Peter have shelters where they take animals that are have terrible behavioral problems who can't be rehomed and euthanize them. The problem is that we have a system that allows people to buy pets, raise them terribly, you know, abuse them, give them behavioral problems, and then just dump them on someone else and make them someone else's responsibility. But what the Center for Consumer Freedom did really well is they perpetuated this narrative of Peter kills because it makes Peter seem hypocritical that they euthanize pets essentially. It's really taken hold and a lot of people view them this way and whenever I see Peter being mentioned always comes with this Peter kills or Peter puts down animals. They kill healthy animals and it's this sort of halftruth which is yeah technically they do euthanize animals but that's missing the bigger picture of what's actually the systemic problem that's creating this this situation. So yeah, but again it just shows how effective these campaigns can be. Now I'm not, you know, Peter do things I don't agree with in terms of sort of certain campaigns and certain marketing things and certain I don't agree with everything they do, but I I do fundamentally think it's a terribly unfair that they've been they've been criticized in this way. Um but yeah, I remember that that that methylers thing. I think it was a was it a spelling bee advert that they did in the Super Bowl?

[00:28:38]>> It was. Yes. And they had children on a stage doing a spelling bee and they said spell methyl cellulose and they couldn't do it and they were like don't eat anything that you can't spell or understand or something along those lines. And then the last line is this smiling kid spelling bacon. P A C O N.

[00:28:59]And that was the point. And I I mean that was I think that was 2019. I >> think it was, wasn't it?

[00:29:04]>> Yeah. Um and you know I actually I dug into the records. I tried to see how much money they like spent on these adverts and like in the grand scheme of thing it really wasn't that much money but I don't think we can dismiss the impact that these types of campaigns have had. Um like I said earlier a third of all consumers in the EU right now associate plant-based meat and plant-based products with ultrarocessed foods. This narrative has clearly taken hold. How much of that is misinformation from organizations like Center for Consumer Freedom versus how much of it is maybe consumers not fully understanding the product? Um not understanding what methyl cellulose actually is. Um yeah, kind of preying on um you said ignorance earlier, but just like lack of knowledge. I think I also want to say like the ultrarocessed framework it for me it from like a consumer psychology perspective it makes sense that it's taken off. It's really black and white and people are like exhausted with trying to figure out what to eat and what's the right thing to eat. And all of a sudden they have this really easy framework. It's like if it's whole foods it's good. If it has lots of ingredients and it's processed it's bad.

[00:30:21]Easy.

[00:30:23]>> I think that's it, Milan. You've nailed it. It's people want simple, easy advice. Of course, they've got busy lives. They don't they've got to raise families, got to go to work, got to pay their mortgages, they've got all these other considerations, and we, you know, we can't expect people to sit down and and like go through health information, nutrition information. It it's unreasonable and unfair. So people want simple, easy messaging that that creates this often very simple binary that allows people to make these decisions and not really think too much beyond that. But is there a class problem related to that? Does that sort of marginalize or inherently sort of look down upon people who maybe don't have the time, freedom or um or financial resources to to consume sort of more and processed foods.

[00:31:08]>> Yeah, for sure. Um, I was on a panel last year at AVA and we were talking about ultrarocessed foods, plant-based meat. Um, and I think it was Dr. Garrett Broad who was also on the panel and he brought up this point. You know, um, processed foods do play a crucial role in key calories for for folks that are potentially not able to. I mean, fruits and vegetables and and and whole foods are more expensive than these products.

[00:31:34]And we need to acknowledge that like processed foods play a really important role in folks feeding their families and getting key calories. Um there also was this interesting I think in Colombia in the last year they've started to tax processed foods or highfat salt sugar foods. And I read this article and maybe I'll find afterwards you can include in the links, but they were interviewing folks who, you know, were lower income that just kind of would grab food on the go as they were coming and going from work. And that tax has really undermined their ability to like get enough calories to just kind of like go about their day. It's like punishing.

[00:32:14]Maybe reformulation is better than taxation. I mean, then that would be an idea.

[00:32:20]>> Well, this is it. You Why Why is the consumer being punished? Shouldn't it be on the companies to create healthier products to to change the fat content to, you know, take out saturated fat, replace it with a with an unsaturated fat, to maybe add some fiber to those products? It kind of summarizes so perfectly the inherent inequality that exists that you have people who maybe struggle to make ends meet anyway, who are being punished because the foods they can afford are not made as healthy as they should be. And the fault of that is because of the companies who are mass-producing this food as cheap as possible. It it it just seems ridiculous to me that we're still in this mindset that it should be the consumer who's who's punished for that when maybe you should increase regulation. Maybe we should we should have a process that that sort of means that these companies are incentivized themselves to create healthier foods rather than rather than the consumer being punished that that's the foods that they're being offered.

[00:33:10]>> Yeah. And there's a there's a new um I completely agree and I've yet I haven't seen as much like focus on the companies, but there was a new um announcement from Gavin Newsome's office in California where he suggested that they would start working with companies to reformulate products. He is using the ultrarocessed food word, but I think when I was looking at it, it's more talking about high uh fat, salt, and sugar, which is HFSS products. Um thinking about how to um reduce those products in school meals and things like that. So, so there are different ways we can approach this, but I don't think that like passing on the cost to the consumer is the right way.

[00:33:57]>> No. It's interesting you mentioned sort of the American political scene right now. Obviously, what's happening in America right now is is uh well, I mean, probably fairly unpleasant for a number of reasons. And I think from our perspective in relation to what we're talking about today, one of those reasons would be um RFK Junior. There's a lot of credibility around sort of his broader messaging points. What I mean by that is we need to make food healthier.

[00:34:22]Um we need to improve what children are being fed in schools. These are sort of rallying messages that everyone broadly agrees with that the issue is when you actually listen to the things he suggests and what he actually represents. Yeah. You know, it's easy to make sort of broad talking points that you have sort of bipartisan consensus around and most people agree with and that unfortunately legitimizes his actual more particular viewpoints. And I saw a video with him, two videos actually.

[00:34:45]>> One was him talking about scary things that are added into into foods. Yeah.

[00:34:48]>> And one of the things he referenced was the was the technical name for vitamin B2.

[00:34:53]>> Yeah.

[00:34:53]>> Which is an essential nutrient. and he read it out and he said it contains this um and you think what B2 which just I thought summarized everything so perfectly and then to make matters worse he did an interview with Sean Hannity from Fox News and this interview it's mad it's in a fast food restaurant a fast food restaurant and during the interview a server gives him a cheeseburger with fries processed meat with processed cheese with processed bread and fries and um he's talking about how it's great because the fries are fried in beef tallow and not vegetable oil. Right.

[00:35:27]>> Excellent.

[00:35:28]>> So, this is the man who's going to make America healthy again. He doesn't know what vitamin B2 is an essential nutrient. He thinks it's bad. And he says that eating fries and cheeseburgers in fast food restaurants is okay if they're fried in animal fat >> versus seed oils >> versus seed oils. I mean, actually, that's an interesting conversation. Um, the seed oils side of things, that's seems to be a really important part of the whole misinformation campaign that's that's sort of leveled against plant-based alternatives.

[00:35:53]>> Yeah. and just in general it's really taken off. So I'm working um our team at Rooted Research is also working on a a nutrition misinformation study with Robbie Locky at um Freedom Food Alliance and um we have been able to access it's like 800,000 rows of data from Meta um Instagram. One of the themes is seed oil. Um, and we're still working through the data to just try to better understand what exactly the the the narrative is there, but it does tend to be um a big part of these sort of carnivore diets, uh, ancestral diets and like ketogenic diets. It's like, you know, seed oil is really um, um, demonized. And you know to bring it back to the nova system, seed oils would be further along in the processing whereas like beef tallow would be considered more of a whole um less processed food.

[00:36:53]Um which again kind of reinforces this idea that it's processing is is is just one way of looking at it and probably not the best way of determining whether a food is nutritionally sound. It's really interesting with the seedors thing because I wrote a book a couple of years ago and and did an updated version. And I included seedors a sort of a discussion around seed oils in it.

[00:37:15]And when I was approaching it, my view was oh well yeah I mean seed I I I kind of thought that what I'd write is yeah seed oils aren't great for you but you can avoid them if you want to. And then when I was looking at it not I've completely fallen for this seed oils thing because actually the evidence around seed oils is completely the opposite of what people say. People say seed oils cause inflammation >> and that's not true.

[00:37:39]>> Yeah.

[00:37:40]>> They're not pro-inflammatory. People say they increase the risk of chronic disease yet compared to saturated fats, animal based saturated fats, they're reducing chronic disease risk. The problem is not the seed oil, like if you have sort of a vegetable oil at home that you maybe use in a salad dressing, yeah, if you fill up big industrial fries with it and you're frying over and over and heating up and cooling it down, you're going to have problems with it, but that's just because of the process, not the actual oil itself. And and and the idea of using that seed oil. And I couldn't believe just how much my impression had been had been warped around it. And I watched a video this morning actually of this sort of left-wing commentator who was criticizing RFK Jr. for the things I just referenced and even he said well beef tallow instead of seed all fair enough but have you seen what's in the bread buns he's consuming? So even these people who are saying RFK Junior is spreading misinformation still accept that element of the misinformation because it maybe because it's so prominent so strong or maybe feeds into maybe a bias that they they already have. I'm not I'm not sure why are we so susceptible I guess to that. This is a great question. I do not know.

[00:38:38]>> It's hard, isn't it? But what is it?

[00:38:40]It's like, is it because people want to eat animal products? And if we're being told animal products are bad, that makes us feel guilty or negative by eating them. But if we're told, actually, no, that's not true. Animal products are fine, it's the seed oils that are bad, that's reaffirming to us a narrative we want to be true rather than the narrative that is true. Is there a sort of motivated reasoning in there?

[00:39:00]>> I mean, yes. I I would agree with that.

[00:39:03]I think that so so my research right now is focused on like the plant-based industry and consumer acceptance of plant-based products. Um, and I think that's a really important framework. We need to better understand consumer acceptance and how the industry is responding to like pressures from the meat industry and consumer changing consumer perceptions. But one of the things I think about a lot and I really want to integrate into my research is the compelling cultural value of the incumbent product which is meat. And if we're not recognizing the value it holds in culture, nostalgia, even like religion, um masculinity, um and and understand the history of the role meat has played in our society.

[00:39:53]Like I don't know how well we can address what's happening right now and transition people away from meat products. It has a stronghold on us.

[00:40:01]like it it is associated with wealth and prosperity and all of these things and has been like this isn't a modern thing.

[00:40:10]I I love food history so in another life I'd love to be a food historian. Um, and there's some really phenomenal books, season just about like um early days in like colona colonization of the Americas and the types of diets that were imported and how they were meat heavy and why and all of these belief systems that existed. Anyway, I will go off on a tangent if I carry on. But all that to say, we have to recognize the hold that it has on our culture. Um, and and potentially that's why people are more likely to believe like a steak is healthier for you than a my micro protein burger.

[00:40:50]>> Do you think then that the sort of the health side of things is potentially a little bit of a facade? That that's not really the reason people are making these choices, but it's a convenient thing to kind of say, "Oh, I'm not being driven by emotion or irrationality. I'm not being motivated by this sort of cultural behavior that's so ingrained. I might not even be conscious of it. it's because oh, I've heard that plant-based alternatives are bad.

[00:41:11]>> Like maybe there's the subconscious leaning because of all of the things I just mentioned and then the health um conversation just makes sense.

[00:41:20]>> Yeah.

[00:41:21]>> Like >> but it's interesting too because I mean when you look at consumer studies, consumers also choose plant-based for health reasons. So there's kind of this like diverging group of people. Some that believe that eating less meat is good for you and they might choose plant-based because of health reasons and then there seems to be this other sort of mindset value set where consumers don't think eating plant-based meats is healthy and actually like eating more meat is healthy.

[00:41:51]>> There is an interesting disparity, right? Um, with vegans sometimes, uh, I've done events and vegans will say part of the problem is we shouldn't have these products. If we just had whole plant foods, then we would just bypass all of this and we wouldn't have to be dealing with this and that and we wouldn't have to deal with people saying veganism is not good because you have to eat processed foods. How much of a role do you think alternative proteins play?

[00:42:12]And if if someone was to say to you, it'd be so much better if we didn't have cell culture or we weren't going to have cell cultured meat and we didn't have plant-based alternatives and we just had fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, legumes, whole grains, you know, that the most the most healthy foods that we can consume would that be better or do these alternative proteins are they important enough that this criticism will be bearable in the long run? I mean, there is research that suggests that plant-based meat products operate as like a stepping stone for for consumers that are trying to eat less meat but want something that is familiar to some to to the foods they usually eat. Um, I've heard this argument a lot like why don't we just eat more beans?

[00:42:53]Why don't we eat more tofu or even tempeh or some of these other things?

[00:42:58]Um, and I think like maybe a a driver from the early days of the industry was that consumers will replace these product meat products with our products and everybody's going to be happy and it's going to satisfy their taste buds and they're not going to miss meat. And I don't think that has fully been the case. But there is research that indicates it operates as a um stepping stone. But there's also like I was reading a study from maybe like four or five years ago where consumers were asked what kind of alternative meat products they might like to see on the shelves. And more than anything, they actually wanted more like uh bean-based alternatives, like more whole food products versus like something that tastes like meat. So, I'm also curious to see how much how much the in early days of the industry were driven by like this really cool technology that we can like make this product that tastes like meat versus like segmented consumer studies.

[00:44:00]I don't know. I can't really speak to that cuz I'm not sure, but I'd be curious.

[00:44:04]>> Certainly. So, I guess it's interesting how fundamentally people felt a little bit let down by plantmiss alternatives.

[00:44:10]there was a lot of hype around them and some of them are genuinely really good and I think the sort of the dairy alternatives are really strong. Maybe cheese obviously has a bit of work to do still. I mean there's there's plenty of bad plant-based cheeses out there but there's also plenty of good ones but in milks and and and yogurts and such. I think what's interesting about milk is maybe people don't drink soy milk or almond milk or or oat milk with the expectation that it will be like cow's milk. we kind of view them as a product in and of themsel and we don't we don't think oh soy milk doesn't taste like cow's milk therefore it's not a good alternative. It's it's sort of flavorsome in its own right. I think it's I never used to like cow's milk so I'm a little bit biased in two ways you know I think it's much nicer soy milk.

[00:44:49]Um but with alternatives there's this expectation that they have to replicate the meat that they're sort of closely aligned to. Do you think there's a way of maybe thinking about these foods as sort of a novel food in itself?

[00:45:00]something that yes, we want them to taste like beef and chicken, but are they enjoyable as a new product in and of in and of themselves?

[00:45:07]>> Absolutely. But I I do think that part of the reason why we're in this predicament is because the very early days of alternative meats really promoted these products as like it's beef made from plants. You know, you can substitute them in this for for any of your recipes. you know, this really like this idea that this product is new and novel, but you can very easily replace it into your daily diet just the way you would be eating meat. And so, I think it was marketed in such a way that then created space for consumer let down when those products didn't exactly meet those expectations. And now I think like the marketing strategies will probably have to shift because a lot of these products are not meeting the taste requirements that consumers want. Like taste is a huge barrier when we look at consumer studies.

[00:46:00]It's cited quite often.

[00:46:02]>> I think you're right. Taste is it is it is the foundation on which these products will succeed or fail. Um, and actually when I was asking that previous question about should we view them in their within their, you know, as tasty foods within their own right, that's a that's I realized as I saying that that's kind of a little bit of me sort of accepting these foods aren't the same, you know, and me kind of rationalizing, well, they don't have to.

[00:46:21]They can be nice as their own things.

[00:46:23]And that in a way sort of signifies that even from my own perspective, they've mostly failed to kind of match the flavor and and maybe even the texture of of the foods that I used to consume when I used to eat animal products.

[00:46:33]>> Yeah. Um, but with without meeting those standards, there's probably going to be the problem where they where they won't.

[00:46:40]But then does that create an unfair an unfair situation where plant-based alternatives have to taste the same as animal products, but a lot of the time to get that flavor requires them to maybe be a bit fattier, to maybe be a little bit less less healthy because they're replicating something that isn't healthy. Yeah.

[00:46:55]>> So, it's like we have to have a vegan beef burger or a vegan bacon that isn't ultrarocessed, that is healthy if you analyze it, but it has to taste the same as something which is a class one carcinogen and which is filled with saturated fat and which is clearly one of the most unhealthy foods you can eat.

[00:47:10]So, it's like ply is a stuck between a rock and a hard place, right? How do they how do we bridge that gap?

[00:47:15]>> I mean, I think we're kind of seeing some examples of that with two of the main um plant-based meat companies in the US. So impossible and beyond they've kind of responded to this push back in two really different ways which are fascinating. So Beyond has created this these products that are using avocado oil. They have less sodium. They they've been um I think they're designated heart healthy, you know, like they've they've just really moved into that um space of being a healthy product. I haven't tried them, so I'm not going to speak to like the taste. Um, but that's kind of how they've responded. And then we see kind of on the other end of the spectrum, impossible, which has really doubled down on taste, enjoyment. Like the products are fatty, they are salty. I really like their hot dogs. I think they're delicious. Um, and it also could be due to their different I I don't know what their consumer segmentation looks like, but I know from um from a friend of mine that works at Impossible, like 95 96% of their consumers also eat meat.

[00:48:25]So, they're really trying to appeal to consumers that eat meat, like meat, enjoy it, but maybe want an alternative every now and again. Whereas Beyond is maybe pivoting to be a product that is more regularly used in like daily lives.

[00:48:41]I don't know. Well, these pivots are h this is such a like this industry is just emerging and we're are we're already starting to see these like differentiations. It'll be so fascinating to see how well they they do how they continue to pivot. Yeah, it's a really exciting and also like complicated time in the industry because we're still learning so much about what consumers want and need and um we'll probably have to just differentiate products based on different consumer segmentations.

[00:49:09]>> Oh yeah, it's fascinating to know that there's there's that sort of um disparity between this the two approaches and like the the directions that they're both going in. We don't really have Impossible here. I think we've got like the nuggets and such, but sort of their sort of um main products like the the beef with the the heeine and such we don't have here at least not yet. Hopefully, I presume that that will hopefully change if there's sort of regulatory approval at some point.

[00:49:31]>> Yeah, I know they have started looking into regulatory approval. I don't know where they're at in the process, but yeah, because of the genetically modified um precision fermentation angle, I think it's going to take a little bit longer here.

[00:49:47]>> Certainly. Yeah. And maybe that speaks to sort of the wider political differences. How much of a role does politics have in terms of the eventual success of these alternative proteins?

[00:49:58]>> I don't know what it's going to look like in the US. Um, this is a really complicated time and I think um, RFK and the Maha movement, I I don't know what they have said about alternative proteins, plant-based proteins and cultivated meat eventually in the future, but I can't imagine that that's going to be a top priority. Wow. I I don't know.

[00:50:21]>> What do you think? I I think if you look at America, which is the the easy the easy one to to look at, at least temporarily, if you think about RFK Jr., he he talks against seed oils. He's promoting beef tallow. He um is an advocate for raw milk. These are these are not things that necessarily bode well in in anyone's favor. Um and obviously, he's now part of this sort of wider sort of populist rightwing movement. And if you think about other people involved in that, you think about Governor uh Ronda Santis in Florida who has banned cell cultured meat, who views alternative proteins, veganism, all these things as part of this sort of broader woke culture that he's he wants to fight against. I guess part of the problem is and we see it here as well but especially in America I think veganism the idea of consuming plants and other animals um has become a part of the culture wars and this this weaponization of the narrative soy boy the idea that consuming tofu and soy products is sort of some weak lefty liberal thing to do.

[00:51:24]You're feminizing yourself. You're not and it plays into what you were saying earlier about masculinity and culture and these bigger attitudes. And if we, you know, if we establish that some of the biggest drivers of these sort of cultural norms and behaviors um and mindsets that are so deeply ingrained that they're influencing people in ways that they're not even conscious of. And then we understand that veganism and meat eating is also a part of this.

[00:51:47]We're not really just dealing with this sort of surface level of discussion of our plant-based alternatives healthier, what does the science show, you know, what is the best diet from a sustainability perspective. These are sort of surface level discussions because you know you can we can talk to people who may be ideologically more aligned. Maybe they're environmentalists. Maybe they are sort of maybe more leftwing. Let's say they're a little bit more open-minded to think about animal rights and animal ethics and such. Well, we only make up a fraction of those people. You know, we we I mean as a movement we struggle to engage people who are environmentalists who who are who are more interested naturally in social justice and ethics and how our behaviors influence those around us. And if we kind of necessarily get through to these people who are more ideologically similar, my list, what chance do we have with people who are ideologically opposed in all these different ways and who reductively label what what we what we're discussing as being woke and that just shuts down any critical thinking.

[00:52:36]>> Yeah. any any any sort of sincerity is shut down by just >> labeling something reductively, which as the ultra person think is a reductive label. But >> the woke label is so reductive, so simplistic and so >> uh and so disappointing that this is >> political discourse. This is work like what you do, the the research you do, the the the the hours and the expertise that you and your colleagues pour into researching this stuff and you present it to people and then you'll have someone in Texas who wouldn't even look at it because it's woke. Yeah, that's immediately written off as woke ro woke research. Yeah, exactly.

[00:53:11]>> I mean, I think it's been very successfully politicized as you've very well like well laid out. Um, and I think it really does have to do with it these layers like you said like there there is these conversations about health, nutrition, processing, but then there is, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years of like cultural attachment to these products that plant-based is trying to replace. And if we don't talk about this, we're never going to get to this place. And um one of the one of the things that I've looked at in my research is so I use like business theory and marketing theory to kind of explain plant-based adoption. Um, but I'm also curious about like food theories and there's one by Pierre Bordeaux who wrote uh distinction which is a social theory of taste and how you choose foods and he really speaks to um ideological attachment to meat and class and how different groups of people eat and what that means for their like identity. Um and there was a study that came out that used his theory um to apply um kind of a theor theoretical lens to um folks in urban poor areas in in the US or you know urban economic like lower economic status. And one of the most interesting things that came out of that study was that people were talking about the foods that they ate. And if they could still put meat on the table, they believed they had not reached rock bottom. Like meat was a signifier of like still having like a social status even in these like really economically devastating areas. vegetables and fruits did not really play a role, but meat played a role in them like feeling like they still could make it. Fascinating >> that is. Did they sort of >> conclude as to as to why that could be the case? I mean in history eating a lot of meat is considered you know it's a it's a it's associated with wealth prosperity and that like really struck me cuz it's like even though they're not explaining why there's this mindset exists that's ancient you know >> so in in essence they were using meat as a substitute for a lack of empowerment more generally socially speaking >> an indication of we haven't hit rock bottom.

[00:55:51]>> Yeah. Oh well.

[00:55:53]>> Yeah.

[00:55:53]>> Speaks to just how powerful it is as as a symbol. I guess that's meat is a symbol. It's not about obviously people view it from the perspective of getting protein and calories and there is that that that does exist. That's why people will eat it. But that's not necessarily the biggest reason.

[00:56:09]>> No.

[00:56:09]>> Or at least >> Yeah.

[00:56:11]>> It's not the primary reason or or it's not the only reason. And there was a there was a New York Times article that really exemplified this because there was um I can't remember his name. Sean Baker maybe carnival guy >> I think. So he's a carnivore diet advocate and one of the lines um in the article really kind of exemplifies this because he said something about I get to eat like the royalty used to eat every day. like this idea that like the fact that he eats like giant amounts of meat is this like class identity like attachment and I mean he talks about like mas masculinity and testosterone but then there was like this like I eat like royalty and I'm like >> oh it's so just sad isn't it >> and you think what what are you what what do you lack within yourself that makes you feel the need to substitute that and that's an interesting thing I've spoken a little bit of masculinity in Um, I think I did an episode a long time ago, masculinity. And one of the things that I thought was interesting was how if we if we associate meat with with masculinity, then that suggests to me that by eating meat, you feel like you're sub you're you're substituting a lack of masculinity, like you have an insecurity there. You know, in the same way that, you know, as vegans, we substitute B12.

[00:57:25]So, we supplement B12 because we know that in our diet naturally, we're not going to necessarily have B12. So, if I'm eating meat to supplement masculinity, does that mean I think that I'm lacking masculinity? that it it reeks of insecurity to me. Not not not of not of confidence, of of maturity, of authority, of of of autonomy. It it seems the opposite. I look at that and I hear you say, he says this and I think that seems weak, >> ironically, you know, that that you would speak in such a way as to say, well, it makes me feel like royalty.

[00:57:54]What's the aspiration there? To be tyrannical, to be authoritarian, to rule over others. What's the aspiration here?

[00:58:00]>> Truly have no idea. But meat helps him feel that way. It's like fascinating.

[00:58:05]He's clearly feels like he's lacking something generally. Um, which is interesting and I suppose that is the wider carnival thing. It's not just about me. there's a sort of a wider geopolitical socopolitical context around it which plays into maybe some conspiratorial thinking around um the World Economic Forum or the idea that as >> maybe government guidelines and nutrition guidelines are pointing us towards more plantforward diets that in a way is signaling that plant-based diets are part of a wider conspiracy because these authorities that maybe carnivores and people who of that persuasion would naturally distrust.

[00:58:41]Well, these people who or these organizations they distrust are starting to promote plant-based diets more, which is legitimizing their carnivore diets to them more.

[00:58:48]>> Yeah, exactly. Which is it just very strange circular thinking, but you definitely see that when you're looking at um like carnivore influencers, there is this strong thread of like don't trust the authorities. Um authorities are lying to you. Trust me, buy my supplements. You know, >> the classics.

[00:59:09]>> Yeah. One of the things we'll do with this study that we're working on right now is um we're identifying like the main influencers that are spreading nutrition misinformation.

[00:59:19]But a second part of that is to look for potential vested interests. See how many of them are connected or selling their own products just to see, you know, how many of them have like a vested interest in spreading this misinformation.

[00:59:32]Um, but yeah, the carnivore thing is is a particularly worrying. I mean, it's bizarre, but also it has serious public health implications if it's widely adopted. Um, so hopefully with some of what we do and what some other researchers are doing, we'll raise more awareness around it.

[00:59:51]>> Do you think that it is becoming widely adopted? Is it sort of just a sort of a social media trend? you know, it gets clicks because it's a little bit novel, a bit controversial, a little bit unusual or or do you think that is sort of permeating into sort of general society?

[01:00:04]>> This is purely anecdotal evidence, but I have noticed in the last year or so when I talk about it, someone will be like, "Oh, my cousin is doing that." Or, "Oh, my friend at work is doing that." Or, "I just tried that. It didn't really work, but I did it." You know, purely anecdotal. I don't know. But I don't think that was the case like 5 years ago. people weren't just randomly adopting meat-based diet.

[01:00:28]>> No, I guess yeah, that's true. And I guess the problem is they have been legitimized. And there's a certain irony which is they're sort of positioned as anti-establishment, but then you have Joe Rogan, the largest podcaster in the world, talking about them. You have Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, you know, one of the most influential people in the world right now. He talks about carnivore diets. Um, again, we have RFK Jr. promoting sort of more red meat, less plants. This isn't an anti-establishment way of thinking. Mark Zuckerberg this at what point do we recognize that this is the establishment now in terms of like the upper echelons of of political power and influence in in in the US especially it seems strange there's like a disconnection >> yes but they've positioned themselves as I mean from the very onset of this like political party they've positioned themselves as counter to establishment so anything that they are pushing forward is going to be seen as such by those folks that follow them and adhere to their values >> is the Rosier in in Europe.

[01:01:24]>> I think so.

[01:01:25]>> Yeah. Okay. In what way would you say that?

[01:01:28]>> I I think that it's a it's a really scary bar to compare it to. So, everything looks better.

[01:01:36]>> Everything looks better. I know that, you know, the UK at least has seen some decline in plant-based uptake. There's less new consumers trying the products, and this is according to some research that's come out from GFI. But in other countries like Germany for example, we're seeing, you know, a rise in plant-based uptake. I think what Denmark is doing with the Danish action plan for plant-based future is really incredible.

[01:02:01]There's definitely like coalitions even here like um plant futures. Indie Core is working with a bunch of industry leaders to promote plant-based and this really cohesive messaging strategy which is the first of its kind. There just seems to be more energy. I'm also here so I and I'm, you know, I'm not as involved in um in the US as I used to be and avoid US politics every once in a while for, you know, mental health.

[01:02:28]>> Exactly. To retain some semblance of sanity, I think.

[01:02:31]>> So, yeah. So, I'm not I I think it would be interesting to hear from someone who maybe is more entrenched in what's happening in the US. But, >> well, in terms of what you referenced in in Denmark, you referenced something that they've they've done that's that you find particularly notable. Yeah. So, the Danish action plan for plant-based future is incredible. This is the first of its kind, like a countrywide strategy for um increasing plant-based production, um consumption, um education around plant-based diets. And I think what is particularly amazing about this is that it really had like bipartisan participation. So there were organizations from like animal traditional a vegan society Denmark also was involved, policy makers, lobbyists, lobby groups, the political groups came together to produce this action plan.

[01:03:23]And I'm not going to get it all right. I I haven't read the entire plan in a while, but I think what's really interesting is they actually put money towards these things. So there's like an incentive for farmers to grow more plant-based products. They're establishing like chef training for vegan food. Um there's a few other like initiatives that really aren't just like, oh, we're going to do this. It's like we're going to do this. We're going to put money towards it. And it's like bipartisan across all of these different groups of people. I think it's a phenomenal example of what can be done when we like work with people that maybe are outside of our value system. and they've done a they've done a really great job.

[01:04:06]>> And it's fascinating that it's in Denmark because we sort of conventionally from a food perspective associate Denmark with with pig farming, quite intensive pig farming and and pork products. And we we import a lot into this country. And so the agricultural perception is actually not necessarily one that you'd you'd think would lend itself to the more plantforward attitude, but would be more sort of maybe entrenched in more more traditional viewpoints around agriculture. I think that's what's really exciting, too, is like in a meattheavy country, this is possible. Um, and I I spoke with the the head of the vegetarian society there last year, so it's been a while, but when I talked to him, they were thinking about ways to implement in different countries in Europe. So, I'm I'm not sure where they're at now, but yeah, it would be good to follow up and see.

[01:04:53]>> Certainly. And from a a UK perspective, there's recently been I think it was sell cultured meat for um pet food has been granted regulatory approval and I think it's now available at least they were doing a trial I think weren't they?

[01:05:06]>> It is. Yeah.

[01:05:06]>> Yeah. Is that does that sort of signify a broader shift in terms of the the the UK's perspective on cell cultured alternatives?

[01:05:17]>> Yeah. Um this my own personal opinion is it might be I think it's fantastic that it exists. I do wonder about it being a pet food first.

[01:05:27]>> Oh like a transition to like human food.

[01:05:30]>> Oh it's interesting.

[01:05:31]>> It's an interesting idea. Um and then my my co-founder at Rooted Research, Alice Johnson, she's at um Aston University.

[01:05:40]She does cell culture biology and um working on lab grown meat. actually growing meat on like mycelium instead instead of other scaffolds. Anyway, she could explain it better, but um we we were talking about this recently and we're seeing some of the same narratives around cultivated that we're seeing around plant-based, which is this ultrarocessed fake food. Um and and cell culture is still a ways away from me, you know, getting to mass market, but I really hope that we can navigate this UPF debate now with plant-based so that we have better tools once cultivated reaches market because in some ways I almost feel like it's a harder sell for some people. I'm hopeful, but we really have to get the marketing and narrative strategy right this time.

[01:06:33]>> Absolutely. Do you have any ideas for what sort of an effective narrative would be? How do these companies go about avoiding repeating the same mistakes or being implicated in the same criticisms?

[01:06:43]>> Do intensive consumer marketing studies.

[01:06:47]Segment your consumers better.

[01:06:49]Understand how these groups respond to different like different language when we're talking about these products. Find out what their values are. Are they in it for health? Are they in it for the environment? Are they looking for a cheaper product? Whatever it might be.

[01:07:04]segment your consumers, study them, identify narratives that resound like resonate with consumers and educate to your best of your ability. And also focus on the taste. So, one of the other things that I think the plant-based vegan community struggles with is there was a study that came out last year or two years ago that showed that an online discourse, vegan vegans, when we're talking about food, we're talking about identity.

[01:07:33]When omnivores are talking about food, they're talking about taste and pleasure and community and nostalgia.

[01:07:41]And it's really hard to make that jump.

[01:07:43]like when you're talking about identity here and then you're talking about like taste and food over here, where is that overlap? So, I would also say, you know, to cultivated companies, and I know some of them have already started doing this, like bringing in chefs early on to like identify really delicious ways to cook these products and emphasize the flavor cuz it it it's tasty. I actually had a chance to try um cultivated chicken in Singapore a couple years ago. Yeah. And it was it was fine.

[01:08:10]>> Yeah. Would you say did it taste like actual chicken?

[01:08:13]>> It tasted like turkey to me like turkey >> from from what I remember of Thanksgiving holidays.

[01:08:18]>> Yeah, of course. Of course. Interesting.

[01:08:21]>> I I mean I'm not probably not the target market.

[01:08:24]>> Yeah.

[01:08:24]>> But yeah, it's convincing enough.

[01:08:27]>> Kind of fills me with great sadness in a way. Well, two things fill me with a bit of sadness, which is uh um sometimes vegans are sort of quite critical of cell cultured meats and they seem sometimes more hung up on the idea of whether it's technically vegan or not and whether vegan should eat. And I think we kind of missed the point, you know, it's not really for us. And um if you don't want to eat it, then that's absolutely fine. Don't Yeah, by all means don't. But sometimes I feel like we can be our own worst enemies in terms of how we approach things that could be generally quite beneficial. But it also fills me with sadness because selfish me in a way is is two things. I think it like represents some of the most amazing things about our species. We're so clever. We're so clever. Just think that we can take cells from an animal and and produce meat. Isn't that just absolutely incredible? Like, how did we get so smart? And yet the irony is the reason that we quote unquote need this is because we're so deep rooted in emotion and transgressive behaviors and myopic worldviews and and and and it's almost like we need this incredible symbol of all of of the best of our species, progressiveness, technology, science, what to to try and overcome something that represents I think some of the worst attributes of our species, you know, violence and and and animal cruelty and environmental harm blah blah blah. Yeah, >> I guess that's it just it's that sort of that that challenge of kind of being really excited for something a little bit apprehensive about it in terms of its necessity and then also I suppose worried about how we as a community then overcome some of these narratives and I already feel tired of having to talk about how this real food thing and this this ultrarocessed thing and yet really if we talk about cell culture to me which in terms of its potential is is probably the biggest thing that we have in front of us right now in terms of positive potential yet there will be probably significant significant um criticism leveled against it in a way that maybe even surpasses some of the stuff that we've been discussing today >> potentially. Yeah. And I agree. I I I it's incredibly complicated, but I think it goes back to the, you know, these layers that we were talking about, right? Like taste and price and house, but then this like cultural attachment, and I'm not sure we can like untangle that fast enough. So cultivated meat might like bridge that gap, you know, in a way that plant-based isn't really able to do that as long as, like I said, we get that narrative right and the messaging right and really understand what consumers are worried about and what they're interested in. How much do you think ethics plays a role? And I I'm somewhat biased because I became vegan for ethical reasons. And that's like the biggest sort of point that I try and argue with people, but I also know that there's a lot of hesitancy around ethics when it comes to how products are marketed in terms of how we promote plant-based diets. A lot of people think that's probably the most controversial thing. What do you think the role of sort of an ethical conversation is in relation to promoting alternatives as opposed to sort of the philosophy of veganism, let's say? I think people don't like to be reminded that some people find their ethics um or some people find them unethical, >> right?

[01:11:33]>> You know, and I'm not convinced that's the the approach we are tackling hundreds and hundreds of thousands of years of like entrenched ideas around this product meat. Um, and people don't like to be told not to do something and why they're wrong for doing it. Um, and I I think the the messages are going to resonate with different people in different ways. The ethics message resonates with me as well. Um, but some people it'll be the environmental method. Some people just be like, "This tastes amazing and it's affordable and I'm going to eat it, you know."

[01:12:12]>> Right. And I suppose is if cell cultured meat becomes commercially viable and is scaled up.

[01:12:16]>> Yeah. Could it become cheaper than meat from animals?

[01:12:21]>> Yeah, it should. It's just going to take a while.

[01:12:24]>> Take a while. Yeah.

[01:12:24]>> Do you think the consumer has that patience or or does the market have patience? Because I guess there's investors, there's lots of money, they're going to want to see a return at some point. Is there the the capital and and the the the will to to wait till that point, >> you know? Um Mark Post, I think he was the original creator of that >> $300,000 lab grown beef burger. Um he was at a GFI conference maybe 3 years ago and he said I think he said like we've got another 30 years ahead of us, >> right?

[01:12:54]>> Which was honestly for me like quite a relief because I'm like finally someone's just saying it like it is.

[01:12:59]>> Yeah.

[01:12:59]>> Like we we've got to work on this for a while and we're already seeing like at least in the plant-based alt protein movement there's a decline in in investor interest. Maybe these things aren't panning out in the same way that they used to. Um I think we're going to get there. I'm really convinced we will, but it I don't know what it's going to look like in between. Yeah. Um, but we have to we we have to find an alternative to what we're doing right now.

[01:13:24]>> Certainly. This is the thing, isn't it?

[01:13:25]>> This is this is just not tenable anymore. We cannot carry on.

[01:13:29]>> No. I mean, that's that's that's the sort of bottom line in all of this is that change isn't something that we have much of a choice over. At a certain point, the change is is just a reality of the fact that we have a system that can't can't can't continue, at least in the way that it is, especially as we have growing populations. globally, you know, we have a growing population of humans, but we also have per capita meat consumption rising. It's this this double whammy and vegans. I think one thing that we struggle with is we obviously have have made gains, let's say past 15, 20 years especially, >> but then if you think about the rise in population globally, >> it's like we there's this sort of parallel happening where you can have more and more vegans, but you also got more and more meat eaters. And on top of that, you have more and more meat eaters consum consuming more and more meat because per capita consumption is increasing. And so clearly something has to change in a way that we haven't been able to achieve so far. And and I guess that's where this idea of alternative proteins and technology is so important because without it we have the same tools, the same messaging, the same conversations that we've had for 20, 30, 40, 50 years. And we can see that that is just not going to be enough to get to where we need to be. especially if we want to see an end to, you know, the the crux of the problem, which is this rampant systemic abuse of animals and the terrible catastrophic damage it causes and the the infectious diseases it results in, the antibiotic resistance that comes as a consequence. The idea that we are going to combat all of those things without something radical and new and transformative, I think is idealistic, but probably maybe a little bit naive. And so >> there speaks, I guess, to the the importance of us addressing this and and maybe as vegans not falling into the trap of of perpetuating this misinformation and and yeah, there's always going to be nuance. We have to establish that these foods aren't the best and they're not quite where we need them to be. And yes, we should reduce sodium and yes, there are these criticisms and some of them are valid, but but maybe not in the way that that that we're told that they are or the scope of that, >> but they also serve a really important point, which is people have this deep attachment to animal products. And we need to meet them where they're at in terms of hitting those sort of desires that they have to have the same flavors, the same texture, and to be able to And you said memories earlier. That's so true. It is nostalgia. It's it's it's this memory of meat and the the festivities and traditions and family meals and and and and first dates and and all of these things play into this perception. If we take that away from people and don't give them something else, we're we're asking them to remove a piece of their identity in a way that maybe they're not willing to do. And there is that. And I think you're right, that selfcultured meat thing, perhaps we can evoke those memories in a way that shows that this is just a continuation of that. It's not it's not actually a new thing. It's just a different way of producing the same thing. There's a power I suppose in meeting people there and appealing to that side of them as well.

[01:16:13]>> Yeah, I completely agree and I think as well as a vegan I am on board with cultivated meat like I I think we need this as a a stepping stone. So I think you put it beautifully. So we can just >> end there.

[01:16:30]>> We can we can end there. Um you're very kind. Um maybe just one very final question then >> in terms of the ultrarocessed foods thing and the narrative around plant mist alternatives. Do you see that there is a positive in terms of this? Does it incentivize companies to maybe change to improve their messaging? Does it sort of maybe provide an incentive for companies to not be complacent but to continue to improve and meet the challenges of these evolving narratives?

[01:16:55]>> Yeah, I think so. And um we are already seeing some of that. Um, I think that I think the challenge is we can't we the industry has to be careful not to push back on Ultra Process being good too hard because then we're accidentally or intentionally aligning with companies that are doing that like Nestle and Coca-Cola and these like multinational companies that are really pushing this narrative. So this is it's a very touchy line, but we also have to recognize that like there's a lot of nuance that exists here and maybe consumer education as part of it. Maybe we've just missed the bow on that one. I don't know. Companies have the responsibility to respond to their consumers and give them what they're asking for. So maybe that means reformulations.

[01:17:51]Um, maybe that means changes in sodium content, like like we discussed earlier, like there are high sodium contents in a lot of these plant-based foods. I think it's an incredibly complicated um, situation right now and plant-based is kind of struggling to respond to it in ways that are meaningful. Um, and we'll see. We'll see what makes sense.

[01:18:19]And and maybe the UPF thing is like a a fad and maybe we'll move past it. I don't know. It's just it's having a moment right now. That's all we know.

[01:18:26]>> It is. Yeah.

[01:18:27]>> And I suppose with most things, there will be a natural push back and >> and um and obviously in terms of the plant-based sector, this is why your work is so valuable because it is pushing back against some of these narratives. It is providing nuance where it's desperately needed and as a consequence it's arming people with with with a more nuanced and understanding um knowledge base around this to kind of get through that simplistic binary of bad versus good and to provide a little bit more context that empowers consumers to to be able to make choices with a with a broader understanding around it.

[01:18:58]So that's why your work is is so valuable and it's why I'm very grateful that you've that you've joined me today and um have provided all the insights and have um have really in many ways I've we we've touched upon so many things that that that go beyond just >> ultrarocessed foods >> from identities to cultures to politics.

[01:19:17]There's so much here but that's why as you say it is complex and um and I appreciate you taking the time to to break it down and to inform us more about this important work that you're doing. Thank you for Thank you for joining me.

[01:19:28]>> My pleasure. Thank you so much.

[01:19:30]>> Thank you so much for watching. I really hope that you enjoyed this episode. Just a reminder that I am now over on Substack and I'm posting weekly articles about different topics related to veganism and animal rights, including share my thoughts and feelings about living vegan in a non-vegan world. So, if that sounds like something you might be interested in or you'd like to support my work, then links to do so can be found in the description below. Once again, thank you so much for watching this