Hostage Negotiator Tactics for Selling to Procurement Pros

[00:00:00]in this episode we show you why saying no why being firm about it and saying no will help you win the deal against people who know how to negotiate hello Sal nation and welcome to today's episode of the salesman podcast and on today's show we have Chris Voss he is an ex FBI hostage negotiator he's an author of the book never split the difference which you can find on Amazon on today's show he's showing how we sales professionals can negotiate against procurement officers the sea Suite essentially people who are trained in negotiation much like us everything that we talk about is available in the show note to this episode over salesp podcast.com with all that said let's Jump Right In Chris welcome back to the salesman podcast thank you very much always a pleasure to be on with you they're fun and interesting conversations I appreciate that mate and thank you for coming back on thanks for sharing your time and I'm intrigued in this one because in the previous episodes which got link to in the show notes and if you're watching this on YouTube it'll be in the description box below in the previous episodes we've perhaps done more of a 101 of negotiation and then I asked you a whole bunch of nerdy questions that I was just super curious on as well so I want to take this a step further now um we can I think we can somewhat assume that most people have listened to those previous episodes they know somewhat even if they only half listen to them they've got somewhat the gist of the the process that you described of you know going for the win-win and and all this good stuff and some of the cliched stuff in negotiations as well that you clarified for us in the previous ones in this episode I want to dive into negotiating with people who know how to negotiate so I get a lot of feedback from the audience of hey I'm new to sales and I'm essentially up against a procurement officer who has been negotiating with salespeople for 20 years and they just dominate me the conversations are awkward they get everything that they want and I feel like I've left the conversation I feel like I've left the negotiation not putting my best self forward not giving the best um representation of myself the company the product and all that good stuff so the first thing is I'm going to ask you and this might cut the conversation short is negotiating with someone who doesn't know how to negotiate different than negotiating with someone who does know the process the techniques the tactics well yeah let's dive into these procurement guys and gals if you will because you know they they are sort of the dark side of the force they are the you know the Sith uh you know they are they are the dark side the Darth Raiders and what I mean by that is um here's here's a couple given a procurement guy or gal is going to make you say no whether you like it or not which means they're going to take some sort of an emotional intelligence approach on the dark side which is going to be guilt um you know they're going to be uh attacking um you know there's kind of two types there's um you know the international kidnapper who is an intimidating type of negotiator makes a lot of threats stamps on the table I mean Their Fear their emotional intelligence tactic is fear and intimidation they kind of got one move there um there there's another one I happen to be dealing with some procurement people myself right now and they really remind me of the frequent callers on a crisis hotlines where they're just going to wear you down and try to make you feel bad and all this is so disappointing um but whatever their Dark Side emotional intelligence approach is the objective is they're not going to let up until not only you've said no but you have to say no at least three times to these people which is why it's very important just to protect yourself to develop the ability to say no elegantly um to to maintain a positive uh attitude because it keeps you smarter as soon as this begins to wear you down these negative things actually begin to to slow down your ability to think you obsess about the conversation you know what did I do wrong you know how did it get derailed I mean they they pick one or two or three ways to just push you as hard and then the hard part is they're not going to let up until you've said no several times because if you haven't said no what they feel is there's more to be had that's their gauge till till you say no until you get really upset I can remember a long time ago uh I came across you know one of the classic names in negotiation Roger Dawson and he had a program that I don't think has changed in the 40 years since it came out called the secrets of power negotiation and it really was push the other side till they get upset and he talked about one example whether where he was wearing down uh someone in a bargaining situation until finally the other person got mad and said I can't sell it to you for that I'd lose money if I sold it to you for that and he was like all right awesome you know I pushed you to your limit you've gotten really upset you've said no adamantly that's what they're looking for they're looking for an emotional reactive no where you really mean no and then they say to themselves all right awesome you know inside they're like I now know I did my job I got every last time on a table I got every cause that's going to kill you you know and they you know they they besides price there's a lot of Clauses they want that you're not going to like I sent an email to one of these people just two days ago and I said you know I I have some real problems with this and be happy to talk it through with you and if we'll just there five sentences I said you know go through each one of these with me line by line and let me know how they are the reaction I got was they waited two days before responding which means now shortly I know that pretty soon they're going to say time is of the essence we really want to get you paid there's you know there's time here well if there was time here they wouldn't have waited two days to respond you know they're using time as a weapon on me you know this is a tactic they're trying to push me really hard and and I said look I'm happy to talk about each one of these Clauses and the reaction was I'm really disappointed we worked really hard we've tried so hard for you everybody else has signed and had no problem and it seems like after all this time and effort we put in you have you know and so this is one Guilt Trip after another which interestingly enough doesn't respond to a single one of my concerns I'm like okay all right you know there there there this is the tactic and they had done some of this to us early on now and I don't mind dealing with procurement negotiator because there's a deal to be had here and it reminds me a lot of why I joined the Suicide Hotline in the first place because I went there because I wanted to learn how to deal with difficult people it's a challenge right it's it's it's a wonderful challenge yeah because you know the it's a gateway to improving your negotiation skills and uh it's a great opportunity for self-reflection on what they've done to you and like you know I if I read this as is I feel kind of lousy here i' I've disappointed them uh they've worked really hard everybody body else signs what's wrong with you I mean you know like if you told your mom when you were a kid you wanted to do it cuz all the other kids are doing it she'd say well if Johnny wanted to jump off the roof would you want to jump off the roof my mom would always say if ex wanted to put the hand in the fire would you do the same exactly and so here we are as adults but a lot of this stuff um the Dark Side of emotional intelligence is guilting this oh my god I've worked so hard for you uh you know there there's some ethnicities that this is a mother-in-law approach you know for once you could make me happy because this stuff works let me ask you Chris before we go any deeper in this because I don't I don't want to gloss over I've wrote down four or five things here I think there's real practical takeaways for the audience from understanding these so we're in this scenario we'll use Chris the salesman he's selling in my world he's selling medical devices to the NHS the NHS are trained procurement officers so the surgeons on board they want to play with the new choice but the procurement officers holding everyone up in this deal so few things here one should we engineer a no into the conversation so that we can just get past that point or does it have to be do they do they have to feel like they've really truly pushed us or are they looking just to take a box that we've said no first of all do they have to feel like they've really truly pushed us yes um the deal is not going to be made until they they have I mean and and two two in international kidnapping we used to say one of the kidnappers going to release the hostage as soon as they feel they've gotten everything they can so our goal in to get an early release as soon as possible is to make them feel like they worked really hard you know asking a lot of open-end questions we had to learn how to say no elegantly deferentially to people that would kill our hostages somebody's going to kill your deal theoretically now procurement officer is not going to kill the deal procurement officers got a finite amount of time that they have to pass this on because there is a surgeon who's waiting for this equipment procurement J guys guy or gal's job is to jump into the negotiation in a finite period of time and pound you as hard as they can and then pass the deal on now they're going to pound you with anger they're going to pound you with guilt but they have a limited amount of time which is why they're going to waste time and then they're going to say we're running out of time well they are and that's why you want to with your ability to say no it still always requires taking the high road with tactical empathy and saying like wow you know one of one of the responses when somebody's upset with us because they're so disappointed we return like what and say like wow this really seems like a slap in the face doesn't it really seems like you put all this time and effort into this and you worked really hard for us and we're disappointing you and and we're just being it seems like we slapped you in the face with this you know we're we're going to we're going to preempt we're going to be proactive and we're going to make them feel like they worked really hard and we're going to maintain the relationship with empathy while simultaneously saying no I'm sorry this just doesn't work for us do we say no with emotion do we get riled up are we passionate or are we trying to be dead pan calm professional and not I guess that takes personality out of it a little bit as well is that the best way to go about it so there has to be an emotionally intelligent way to say no um and so instead of with passion with anger our emotionally intelligent way to say no was the first exercise some tactical empathy I'm sure it seems like this is a real slap in the face and then differentially and apologetically I'm sorry this just doesn't work for us so we're indicating an ongoing desire to continue to collaborate we're not trying to slam any doors we're not trying to escalate by getting angry the other thing we're trying to do is we're not trying to take the low road because I could email this person back and say you know what I'm disappointed too what that gets us back into is this sequential move game where they you know I'm the second mover on this emotional level and the very best I could do is tie I don't want to tie you know I want to I want to continue to have a great deal I want to I want to win you know I want I don't want these Clauses in the contract I don't want to cut my own throat by discounting but you know if if I haven't found a way to pleasantly nicely say no you know they're not going to let up they're just not it's not their job that's not what they're training to do they're just trying to do their job it's not personal when she says she's disappointed she's not really disappointed she just knows it's a great way to get away when when you say sorry I'm interrupting here but there's loads to go out and I don't want to gloss over anything when you say it's their job is this a leverage point for us in that we know that to perhaps get to a procurement person the deal is pretty much done the needs the desires the service offering most of the time that is all sorted and arranged and you negotiating over the numbers aren't you at this point particularly in my background dealing with the NHS the surgeon wants this equipment with planned it all out it's going to be you know million quid for this full theater refurb they need the refurb um the the costs have been offset against the money that they're going to save over the next five years all this the the stuff that we talk about on the show all the time when we get to the procurement officer do we have more leverage than what we think perhaps on the surface level we do in that if they don't sort this deal out within that two three week month period as you described before the surgeon's going to kick off they're going to lose patients further down the line are we okay to put some of this on them and you know perhaps keep control of the responsibility or self responsibility but even their organization allow them to have a bit of the the Flack for this being a slow process when you first Contact our contacted with procurement is involved there's only one or two possibilities you're either the one they really really want or they're never going to give you the deal and they just want you to Discount as much as possible to drive the other guy's price down how do we know then because this isn't this is super important and again I'm interruped I apologize thed this in the NHS the over a certain value like £50,000 or £55,000 any deal would have to go to Tender so we if you were leading and most of the time we were just as the the company I worked for was the company everyone wanted to buy products from surgeon wise we would always then write clearly specifications into the tender get procurement on side get them to put the specifications in there to to beat out the competition and it would be stupid stuff like this monitor refreshes at 60 HZ rather than 50 HZ so you get a better image and that would have to be written in so that's kind of a tactic we would do when the procurement team was on board but if you're going into this and you're slightly Blinder than that you know you've been asked to go to Tender Is there a way to sus out whether you're really in the competition here because clearly there's a whole bunch of these occasions where you probably just want to cut your losses and spend your time more on the lower hanging fruit rather than going into a battle where you know you're at the bottom of the hill and they're up there with lasers machine guns and and God knows what else and they they're just going to dominate you so how do we know when we go into these scenarios whether we've actually got a shot or not with the procurement team you you got to get past the first time you said no you know you have to express no with tactical empathy and elegantly one time right up front if they come back and continue to negotiate they want you cool if you are there just to drive the price down and you're never going to get the deal they're not going to waste any more time with you because they're busy people which is another reason why you have to elegantly say no because you have to get past the first hurle no one way or another you're not proceeding without gently elegantly using one of the ways to say no you're just not and that's your first hurdle that's your first objective find out whether or not you're in the deal or you're out of the deal if they continue to talk to you after the first no wow you're the preferred vendor if they don't talk to you after the first no you never were and you need to go make a deal that you can make love it that makes so sense I love it when it's binary or obviously it could be more than one no I guess and you can you you can gauge it and judge it yourself but that's a somewhat binary way to judge this which is amazing Chris I appreciate that who is in control of these conversations and both from really who's in control and the the perception of control as well right and and that and that's exactly the point the perception of control the secret to gaining the upper hand is a negotiation is giving the other side the illusion of control so if you want to if you want to wear them out what you have to do if you want to make them feel like they've gotten everything they could get they have to feel like they established control and that's that's the reason why Defence is such a powerful skill especially with these guys you know the international kidnappers the terrorists The Killers the murderers the sociopaths we dealt with we dealt with them with difference and a tactical application of empathy and we wor them out another another one of my favorite International negotiators is was a un guy that got all the hostages out of Beirut in the 1980s um hez Bala was on the other side they were kidnapping everywhere and one of his rules was a secret to negotiation is learning how to exhaust the other side that the procurement guy or gal is going to try to exhaust you in a submission that's why all we're so disappointed we've work so hard oh my God everybody else is doing this that's designed to exhaust you into submission your job is to exhaust them but with a different approach not with the Dark Side of emotional intelligence with Defence with saying no one of the great how are we supposed to do that I'm you know I like very much I'll outline my concerns and I'll say I'm sorry it just doesn't work for us if I have to put it in an email I'll go out of my way to put I'm sorry and a bunch of times I'm sorry I'm afraid we can't do this you know I will I will narrow my rejections to the points and not to the person and I'll narrow it in a way where it doesn't it's not it's not going to be taken personally unless they're really trying to clobber me with disappointment if I say I'm sorry this doesn't work for me and they say oh I'm so disappointed we're running out of time well you're you're sloughing off my emotional intelligence because you really have no interest in having a work relationship with me your procurement your job is to beat me up one way or another in a finite period of time and then pass me on to on the next stage when you say worse or out do you very literally mean that you get to the point where the person that you're negotiating with just goes whether it's in their head or to to their boss or whoever the end user is they go I can't be bothered dealing with this dude anymore um the deals the deal's as good as it's going to get I just I don't want to stress I've got other things to do we're not not getting anywhere is that CU that's almost frustration and that's almost seems like a it seems like a negative place to be and clearly we're we're all trained to sales people to be happy to always have a smile on our face to give value that over overworked cliched phrase are we are we really driving people to the point of frustration just to get them out of the picture so we can move forward yeah it's a that's a good distinction to draw because we're not trying to get them there's a difference between frustrating them and making them feel like they've gotten everything they can and they're going to feel like they've gotten everything they can when they've heard no several times um and so and that's why the first response is how are we supposed to do this you know it's it wears them out but it doesn't make them angry at you we are we are not trying to focus their negative reaction on us we're trying to make them feel like they did their job and and the conversation you talk about is really a very important conversation because if they go back to their boss and they say I'm really frustrated with these guys I just can't can't get anywhere with them the boss going to say get back in there and get a discount yeah he's going to yell at them but if they go to the boss and they say you know what I push these people as far as I can I got them at their limit you know I I have put them through the ringer and I pushed them as hard as I possibly can and a boss is going to say all right good job you know pass it on make the deal so the secondary conversation away from the table is very important and one we have to be conscious of and that's why the differential approach is very important because they need to they need to not be frustrated with us but they need to feel like they've done their job it's not going to get done otherwise it's just not and do we enable them to do that by of course saying no um being the the the positive energy if they're trying to emotionally bully us do we do it by almost giving in and just because I could imagine as we're going through this I can imagine an email that gets sent from us to them saying almost this is all I can give you like you you've done a great job you've worked me to the boat and if you're charismatic enough you could probably say this on a phone call or in person as well of you know you've done it you you've you've crushed it my boss has annoyed at me because of the discount that we're giving you um you know you've leveraged us the best you can is is that how we try and wrap this process up because clearly it could go on for a long period and it's not productive for either side Are we almost giving is an opportunity to give in um and and put that across without putting out siging weak I don't like giving in um so mean by that Chris is like we're strategically giving in as in we know this is where we want to be and so we're happy to say oh you know that that's all the discount we can give or you know whatever the scenario is knowing trying to force them into saying okay we'll accept that then I wouldn't take that tactical approach I mean I my Approach is look you guys have been very generous you've been wonderful with us we're flattered that you picked us out at all I mean you're you're you're you're major International Company you're wonderful you're well-known a long-term relationship would be incredibly valuable to us you know what I want to articulate the things that are going on in the back of their head as to why I should give in and I'm going to say those things I'm going to take the wind out of their sales I'm going to express it first I'm going to lead them with nowhere to go I'm going to be very positive I'm not I'm not going to I don't want to act you know because they're going to sniff out the same game they're playing they're going to sniff that out um and that's why if somebody tells me they're disappointed I my response is like well I'm disappointed too that's their tactic and it does me no good to be the seven second mover in their tactics and that's why if we if we retain what are they thinking on the other side why are the reasons that that we should give in I'm going to articulate those reasons they're going to think that they've worked really hard for me if they've worked really hard they think they've been generous they've gone out of their way I'm going to I'm going to say look you've been so generous you've so gone out of your way on this you know you You' you've so treated as so special I'm going to cite all the reasons that they're going to give for me making this deal and then I'm going to say you know I'm sorry it just doesn't work for me um different ways the ways to say no is I just can't do that I'm sorry you're generous it doesn't work for me I'm afraid that just doesn't work how am I supposed to do that how am I supposed to maintain our ability to move forward uh you know I'm going to I'm going to say no imply no really the key is really imply and know and and having to know and I have to do it multiple times and continuing to take the high road so that they don't feel they lost you know you you get into an offer counter offer tactic counter tactic at their level then it gets into a win lose thing for them which digs them in because they're used to winning and and and plus you know if if you haven't you know when I was doing kidnappings in Haitian kidnappers only settled on the weekend I know that sounds stupid but they only settled on weekends because they part they parted on weekends you know and they were they were hung over and recovering on Saturday Sunday mon or Sunday Monday Tuesday they're they're they're getting over I mean literally getting over the weekend I could offer a Haitian kidnapper I could have the family offer the Haitian kidnapper full Ransom on a Monday or Tuesday and they're never going to take it because they got a finite period of time where for whatever reason the time pressure that they feel they want a party on the weekend I mean should we use that then Chris should we be having these conversations on a Friday and essentially setting it up that right let's just get it all wrapped up before the end of the day and then we don't need to think about it and it's it's all done by the weekend is that a tactic that we should be using as well our counterpart is going to use time against us and time as a weapon and there's nothing wrong with allowing that timing to work for us as well and I've got conversations that are getting ready to drag into I expect a tremendous amount of pressure on this cont this negotiation I'm in now in 24 more hours because we're going to get closer to the weekend I know it's going to happen so I'm okay with that you know they're going I'm going to use I'm use time the same way so short answer to your question is yes that's just fine amazing and two final things on this and then we'll we'll start to wrap it up Chris should we proactively be taking as you the word you taking the wind out of their sales in that I envisioned that if price is going to come up you could in your initial proposal or as it gets to procurement you could say you know we did this with this company this is the price they work it worked for them they got great Roi and trying almost take some of the power that they've got to negotiate off the table should we be proactively doing this and strategically doing this before we even get into the negotiation itself well I I I first of all the concept of being proactive is always a good idea then next question is what are you going to be proactive on um if you uh if you're already cutting your price before you get into the conversation then that just makes them hungry you know they smell more yes I've got this this uh image of um wolves or coyotes just like pulling at a at a body kind of like pulling at the weak animal off the back of the pack when you say that yeah yeah they you know in trying to explain to them how you've already discounted the price you know what they read in their head is like all right they're in a discounting mindset excellent we want them thinking that way and they're going to try to get it at that point in time they're going to try to get us to start to bit against ourselves which is why with this whole thing like oh I'm so disappointed or I've worked so hard or we want you so much or you know what's a long-term relationship with us worth you know I had another procurement person say wow a long-term relationship with us isn't worth more than that you know that's like don't why don't you love me more may love you long time so you know they're trying all these crazy you know Dark Side tactics to get us to feel guilty and give in um and they're tactics you know these These are procurement is raise the level a lot of you know they're not pounding the tables and yelling at us as much as they used to but they're they're using emotional intelligence tools the you know the guilt ones uh to avoid the issues and and to get us to give in to wear us out to make us feel like we worked really hard and again they're not they're not going to let up until we basically go I can't make that deal we lose money and they're like all right that's where we want it to be excellent let's make the deal now you know they're going to go there on the making of a deal and I want to hear from the hostage side of things as well here is this a a light bulb moment is this right we've done it we're happening or is it a gradual chess match would probably be the way to describe it of you know move counter move move counter move and then it gradually Fades into I think we're about done here and then obviously there's there's one or two calls of actions or an email that would um move it to the next step whether that goes to finance or wherever it goes so is it is it this long um not way to describe it is it a is it a gradual fade into a deal being done or is it this is it we're done let's move on with things and and especially I want you to comment on the the hostage side of things as well they're going to have to feel like they put in the time uh you know you you SCH you scheduled a 30-minute call they're not going to be happy unless they've kept you on the phone for two hours and you and and You' excuse yourself from the call at least one time to talk it over because those are the ear marks so what you want to do is you want to compress that time frame as much as you can by wearing them out when you go from Defence and essentially you know they're using passive aggression on you because it works and you're going to need some passive aggression with them you know how am I supposed to do that what are we supposed to do how am I supposed to answer that lots of what and how questions um so what you really need to do is you need to wear them out as quickly as you can um and I'm not entirely sure I answered your question I was just I was just getting out of is this you were them out you wor them out and you know more recent research shows that we've only got so much willpower for example then it it's depleted it's a gas tank there's only a finite amount of it and then you start making stupid decisions towards the end of the day like binge drinking Bing eating especially towards the weekend but what I'm getting at is is the decision that they decide that they've got as much as they can is it you know their willpower depleted they go okay we're done or is it they go all right well we'll see how we are tomorrow and then we see how we are tomorrow and you know that could be or I see I'll see where we are in an hour's time or we'll let them sweat is it a is it a binary yes or no or is it something that kind of like just Fades into existence it fades in a little a little bit more for them uh they don't have an unlimited amount of time but while they've got time left they're not they're not make they're not going to stop pushing you while they have time left it's just not going to happen un unless of course you've given in on everything and there's nothing left to push you on at that point in time you know they they you know they they say okay this you know wash their hands we're good um so they're they're going to get everything they the only way the process is going to stop is they're going to run out of time or they get everything one of two things um and there's going to be a finite period of time I want to exhaust them in that finite period of time or the they're going to feel refreshed and they're going to they're going to go even farther if they get and when they get a a concession that gives them a bit of a taste it's like a drug addict needing a fix every every concession they get it gives them a taste it uh it takes them out of withdrawal it strengthens them so you know your small concessions that that you think are are are there for good willll to give in actually makes them hungrier for more makes them makes them easier to uh to last longer you know if uh Haitian kidnapping if if a partial payment happened to be paid on a Thursday or Friday now they're like okay well we got enough to party for the weekend we're going to go through this weekend we're going to start all over again on Monday we're going to go back to trying to wear them out so you got to be careful about concessions because it you know makes them hungrier for more is there any way and we'll wrap up this Chris is there any way to time block the negotiation period I mean for me with a surgeon you could tie it up the best you can and get the surgeon on board to say he or she needs that equipment on a certain date so at least you've got a an end goal to aim for obviously you work back from delivery and payment processing and all that kind of stuff and invoicing and POS is there a way to do that if you don't have that scenario is there a way to go into the conversation and clearly if you demand that it's got to be done on a certain date they're going to it's a it's a point of Leverage for them to push it back as far as possible because it's control of the conversation so is there any tactics even in the hostage or kidnapping scenario that you would use to block out the time that you've got here to do the negotiations well for me I'm just going to take the attitude as I've got all day you know I've got as much time as possible so short answer is no um you can't put a deadline on them that's a piece of information for them that they're actually going to like H it's going to give them more of a feel for how far they could push you there's a really they're going to be smart enough to know that if you put a deadline on the conver ation it's going to be uh the old phrase is that when you need it or when you want it well that means you're going to put a deadline on it from when you want it not necessarily when you need it so they know that they they know there's more time behind any deadline that you put out there because you're never going to put a deadline on yourself that your your your own hard full stop deadline so that's one of those things if you try to put a deadline on it you only put pressure on yourself interesting and I guess this if they're smart enough they'll know when your company's Year Of Enders they'll know perhaps when your target year Enders and and things like that and I know I used and looking back obviously there was a amate move but I sometimes with procurement officers that I thought I had a good relationship with I would go in and say look you know I if I get this in before Christmas you know me and you are going going out for drinks after the fact uh on the back of the commissions but again that might be information that's better kept to yourself versus giving them more leverage and with that Chris just to wrap up I've got final question I've asked it you a couple of times now and I'm going to ask you again so it be interesting to see if your answer is different from the previous occasions and that is I a test no no it's it's fine for you to change and grow and and develop over time mate if you could go back in time and speak to your younger s what would be the one piece of advice you'd give him to help him become better at selling I'm not sure if this is my same answer but I'd be nicer I mean I wouldn't I wouldn't be a little slower to react negatively and and iide daily um uh not react negatively at all you take the same approaches have the same ideas but just be nicer about it so that I was took it a little bit easier on people interesting you said something similar on a previous show and just to dive into that just slightly is this something that you've learned s of experience and age over time or is this something that you saw positive benefits of within negotiations or whatever it was that enabled you to say you know the end new net net result of being just neutral at worst versus getting hot-headed and and you know putting emotion into things where it doesn't need to be that led to B better results and so that's why you started doing it yeah um both um better results they feel better I feel better I mean yeah you know I was I've been in meetings where I really kind of Slam people in in government meetings a long time ago and was sort of proud of myself for slamming them and then the the penalties I I paid longterm over that was like this just was not worth it and on top of that if I'm mad enough to slam somebody in in a conversation I mean I don't feel good about it neither neither do they the toxic residue is bad emotionally interesting well that's food for thought for the audience with that Chris tell us a little bit about the book because clearly that is the next step for anyone who enjoyed this episode and wants to learn more about negotiations uh both in the world of hostages and in the world of business as well and then tell us where we can find out more about you as well I got you know I got to tell you I'm getting so much feedback from salespeople in particular that they don't think never split the differences a negotiation book they think it's a sales book I got I got a uh I got an email the other day from a lady on LinkedIn uh she hit her her numbers 139% of her number and she said I attributed to the stuff that I learned uh from your book never split the difference so you pick it up on Amazon Amazon's always got the best price and you know what take it a step further subscribe to our news letter The Edge um you can you can pick it up off our website Black Swan ltd.com black like the color Swan with 1n LTD like limited sign up for the newsletter it's free The Edge comes out once a week plus it's also a pipeline to all the other training that we give and a lot of other information that we give out to help people get better and newsletter is free and we give out a lot of other free stuff too good stuff but I'll link to all of that in the show not to this episode over at salesman podcast.com that Chris thank you again for coming on the show show your insights on this cuz some of this was counterintuitive I'm scrobbling down notes here that I'm going to be using moving forward with the deals that I'm doing is kind of they get bigger and more corporate as the show grows and so I appreciate that on a personal level I know the audience appreciate it as well and thank you for joining us again on the salesman podcast thanks will an absolute [Music] pleasure