The Hidden Power of Taste: Food Anthropology & Sensory Design

[00:00:00]It is very intimate. I said that once before. It's like it's a bit weird. And it's more intimate than sex unless you become pregnant. It's like something that really stays with you. There's such a hunger but not for these kind of experiences to go outside of your comfort zone to I don't know eat something while sweating in a sauna while listening to weird things while being exposed to strobe lighting that people are really craving that they're happy to sign away every single waiver just in order to feel more. Caroline is an immersive experience director, multiensory food artist and food anthropologist exploring how behavior, ritual, and the senses intertwine around food. Trained at Central St. Martins and SAS, her work blends art, science, and anthropology to reimagine our eating rituals. She's created food installations and experiences around the world, collaborating with brands like Disney, Bang, and Olivesson, and Selfridges. always inviting us to taste, feel, and think differently.

[00:01:00]>> And I think food is a fascinating one, I find, because it's very habitual for us, all of us. And it's very easy for us to just habitually perhaps dismiss food sometimes just as in amongst the busyiness of life. It's more functional, but of course, it can be so much more than that. What this wonderful perspective you have on food in addition to that, >> and I think food is it's almost like the last bastion. It's like physically comes inside our body and becomes part of us.

[00:01:25]It's like it grows the cells we're living in.

[00:01:27]>> Let's talk about sensory. Obviously food and taste and and smell, but also sound and and images. And how do you factor that in? How do you play with that with those different elements?

[00:01:36]>> Like almost make music as a special condiment to kind of add the flavor or like the sound like when actually the act of eating changes the way you perceive music. And I find that really fascinating.

[00:01:46]>> Right. Hang on.

[00:01:48]>> Yeah.

[00:01:52]>> Yeah. Oh wow. Let's have a look.

[00:01:56]Oh, that's hilarious. So, what's the reflection from that? My brain's kind of hurting on the side. So, just just for those that aren't watching on video, what what do we have on the table?

[00:02:09]>> Caroline, um, welcome to the experienced designers.

[00:02:14]>> Thank you for having me. It's really exciting to have you here in my kitchen.

[00:02:18]>> Absolutely. Today we have a very special experience ourselves in Caroline's kitchen in London. So look, firstly thank you so much for inviting us here.

[00:02:28]Really grateful for that. Um it adds a nice dimension to come out of a studio um and come and talk about something which you know you're really passionate about. Um but just kind of as a as a starting point, um what we kind of wanted to talk today about was just in terms of your your passion and the work that you're doing. Um how would you kind of describe what you do?

[00:02:52]>> Oh, okay. Start with the most complicated question.

[00:02:55]>> Definitely.

[00:02:56]>> Then we have some maybe we have some time. But >> yeah, >> I am really passionate about experiences rather than actually tangible things. I think this is how we connect with people. This is how we define who we are. And I love having fabulous experiences and actually modulating them, shaping them, and creating those moments for people that really change their perception, but change their touch their soul. Sounds a bit cheesy, but I think it really truly changes you. And it's a perfect resetting sometimes as well. How you interact with your environment, how you become more mindful. So, um, as a food anthropologist, um, I love food, specifically flavor, because I think when it comes to experiences, and I do work a lot with other brands and experiences, everything is really screenbased, and I feel like we have so much overkill on the screens, and my eyes seem so tired, and I think everyone eyes feel really tired at the end of the day. And I think it's like that's yet another screen we're looking at. And >> there are beautiful screenbased exhibitions and experiences. And when it comes to immersiveness, but I would doubt that this actually truly immersive because in order to immerse ourselves, we need to really fully be there present and it's not a passive thing. So it really has to impact us. And I think food is it's almost like the last bastion. It's like it physically comes inside our body and becomes part of us.

[00:04:20]It's like it grows the cells we're living in. So I think that's a really beautiful aspects to make it more meaningful, but to anchor it as well.

[00:04:27]>> Yeah. Let's break those two words down.

[00:04:29]food and anthropology.

[00:04:31]>> Um, I love like when it comes to food and anthropology, I really like the idea of creating rituals and I've always been fascinated. So, I went to art college to central St. Martin. So you're always really encouraged to be super conceptual and I my main thing and I realize it's ritual ritual and habit and habitus and it's like what are the habits and I'm fascinated by people's habits and when you break them if you like if you always drink with your right hand or if you always always leave your house going to the right and then you change it you really make people more alert you break that habit and I think it's really fascinating as well to learn that you know you can break a habit within 14 days loads of sociologists agree with it and I think that's really interesting when it comes to how can we relearn and retreat and retreats often are 14 days you know when you go to yoga retreat or mindfulness retreats because it does take 14 days so are we trained as a food anthropologist realizing that rituals and food is my my main thing and how different cults and religions actually used food and smells and items you would consume to anchor and to create community and actually well to alienate people as well but to mark who we are and our identify in in that in a bigger scheme like our >> like our true being through food. So I think that's really exciting. So it's not about reinventing the wheel but just using what's already there and how we interact as humans. Um yeah and and and using that as a toolbox.

[00:06:00]>> Yeah, I love that. I I this word intentionality is so it's so prevalent in in our industry. It's super interesting and I think food is a fascinating one I find because it's very habitual for us all of us and it's very easy for us to just habitually perhaps dismiss food sometimes just as in amongst a busyness of life it's more functional but of course it can be so much more than that um what what do you what this wonderful perspective that you have on food in addition to that >> yeah I mean it's it's obviously often belittled because it feels like an everyday thing But I love that a lot of travel, you know, like, you know, from Columbus going to America was driven by greed and like a lot of people exploration and and explorers was always like, okay, maybe in China there will be noodles. And I think I quite like that or bringing back certain food items. So I think it's really exciting to think about how food is anchoring ourselves and has always been really like used like in that powerful way.

[00:07:08]>> Yeah. Anthropology.

[00:07:11]So just for those that are not aware of anthropology from a food, but what what what is it and how what have you what have you taken from that?

[00:07:20]>> It's breaking down who we are through our rituals, through our interactions with other people, through our community. And I think so it's very important at the moment because obviously a lot of brands a lot of experiences tried to build community.

[00:07:34]>> So I recently was involved in creating um a wellness place as well in East London and like we try to commodify community but it's almost impossible to create a community through a members club and and obviously some some communities do it really well but it's something that actually has to grow. M >> so anthropology is really much the interaction we have and the you know obviously when it comes to cults and religions but just within the family boundaries as well and then the idea of creating community within the experience design organization and how you come across people and I think that's really interesting the rituals >> the signs the secret languages the codes and I think decoding and being mindful all of this gives us an amazing toolbox and a playbox to work and like design experiences to be more mindful So I think that's interesting when it comes down to >> it's the anthropology of drinking coffee rather than just the nutritional value of drinking coffee.

[00:08:30]>> Yeah. Give us an example of like a ritual and maybe how we could break it down and and extract some learning from it. Um, but I think it's really interesting. Obviously, when it comes to coffee, a lot of people uh love to go to a coffee shop and they wait in line with a barista and often the barista, you know, like they ask for the name. So, you're almost being called to the front of the queue. So, it has a almost pseudospiritual >> uh being because you asked to come to the front of the queue when your name is called in order for your coffee um to be presented to you. It has obviously huge feelings of communion as well and obviously the the ultimate flex of being in in like an urban environment is when that barista knows your coffee order already by heart. So you have that familiarity and community building but it's still a commodity. You're still buying buying it. So I think that is really interesting and that explains obviously the huge success of all these coffee shops where you have 15 people queuing up but you could just make the same coffee at home but it's very much about >> being there with your tribe in the same queue like pilgrim almost there's a pilgrimage to it having it has same like I think like it draws very heavy on >> in a society that's a void of spirituality and god I think it's almost people are creating those rituals in order to fill the the void in a really interesting way.

[00:09:52]>> Can I share a ritual that Nina and I have at home? When we first bought our apartment in Stockholm, we were very lucky. It was a brand new apartment and it was quite high up. So, we got to see sunrises and sunsets. So, it was quite a lovely moment to enjoy nature and but both of us, we both journal and and meditate in the morning, a part of our rituals in the morning. And uh we we very intentionally because we love coffee, we very intentionally went out and found a coffee machine that served the purpose in the sense that I love to experiment with coffee but Nina wants to just press a button. So we had to find the technology that the the ability to kind of serve both of us but also to anchor into our ritual in the morning.

[00:10:36]And we've had these very specific chairs that we sit down and then we kind of have a coffee and we meditate and journal. And that became part of our everyday as part of our own ritual but from a place my well from our perspective from a huge place of love for coffee uh as well. Yeah.

[00:10:52]>> But I think that inspires great design and functionality. It's actually how you interact with it. It's like the ritual and what what do you need and how you interact with coffee and I think then creating that area and creating the space. It's not just the machine, but it's the space. Maybe you want to smell the coffee in before. And that's really important that that lingers and and the seed and how you drink it. And I think that's when it comes to designing an experience and taking people on that journey is very overused, but taking people on that journey, it's really important to actually deep dive into how people interact with it and what it means to them.

[00:11:27]>> Yeah. Great. that moment and like what like at what point and and how much time is dedicated to it and like whether it is just a pure functionality or it can be elevated to something else.

[00:11:38]>> Yeah. So what made you choose food? How did you get into it? Um I well I'm obviously I love food and I love eating and I think it's always really interesting coming um like my mom was a doctor so she did actually cook but I like the idea of how preparing food was always seen as something really exotic and the idea of like there is just a huge spectacle of creating huge dinner parties of people coming together and creating food that has so much drama and theater to it. So um I quite see it as a choreography of a different like a theatrical performance. So for me that's how I I see food and dinner parties and obviously dining experiences as well.

[00:12:22]And when it comes to food, it is something that it's the final barrier and actually when when you tell a story and and you give someone you make someone eat part of that story, they really >> like it becomes part of them. So it is something that is that like it's it's like a trans substantiation sometimes like almost like pseudo religious or not. It's like but then >> like if if I tell you the story about bananas and maybe velvet underground or and you were and then you eat the banana you really connect with that story in a different way and it anchors you truly.

[00:12:57]>> Yeah. The other thing I love about food is that obviously it really holds a lot of teroir you know like wine and food is like no other food item will taste the same but it hasn't been you like it didn't grow or made in that region. So it's obviously that is something that's really interesting to connect ultimately to a place >> to have that almost metaphysical connection to something when you drink the wine from the area is used in in wine production but you could say the same thing to something else and we all experience that when you go on holidays and you're in Italy and you have the most beautiful tomato and you try to recreate that moment in >> in England it just never works. So it is it holds so much. It holds a ray of sunshine. It holds the earth. It holds the knowledge and I think the food like it's a really beautiful medium to kind of use that as an like ingredient. And I think >> our body reacts obviously to food and it's but it's very intimate as well. You know like when I sometimes do um dining experiences and ask people to be blindfolded to open their mouth there's a lot of trust and surrender for actually allowing someone to place something in your mouth. especially in our stone age where you like you often we asked it's very clinical do you have any allergies before um you order something in a restaurant so from a legal point of view so just to kind of go I don't know what you're putting there it is very intimate I said that once before it's a bit weird but >> and it's more intimate than sex unless you become pregnant it's like something that really stays with you if you >> you know like sports people their hair strands get tested just if they had too much caffeine because it really becomes part of your body and I think >> food really is therefore yeah it's obviously harder to play towards a bigger audience because when you have obviously a screen you can have 3,000 people come through a second through like something like the outet or you know frameless it can really can play towards something else >> but I think now that everyone is more interested in immersive experiences playing towards you like we had audiences of as well is really interesting to have everyone eat something in the same way. So it truly becomes a communion also.

[00:15:06]>> Yeah. What's your favorite kind of experience that you've been involved with?

[00:15:11]>> Um one of my favorites was actually really early on was in a um secret Masonic temple in London where we didn't really like disclose the location of of it and actually almost kidnapped people and um had them picked up by cops. So they didn't actually know where they were going while blindfolded and masked and they had a full dinner um in this temple and but they knew that actually I created it. So but I still have 20 years later people come up to me and saying like I was at that dinner it's really changed me. So I think that's really beautiful because of the >> yeah intentionality but the meaningful and the longlasting of something in such a fast-paced life that people still remember 20 years later how they felt.

[00:15:55]And the thing is playing with a lot of elements of surrender not knowing not knowing who the other guests were >> but because they all knew that I created it at the time. So when they recognized the names it's like I've been to dinner like where do you like well I don't know where I don't know what happened but I was there and I love I love that.

[00:16:12]>> That's amazing. But every single one is different. So I think it's like the nice thing is you don't have to repeat yourself because you don't run a restaurant. So every time it's not always food based. It's like I think but I think I love when all the senses come to play and you really kind of get people out of the comfort zone. And obviously food is >> for good or bad something that you can easily poke out of the comfort zone with. Obviously, I like working with immersive wellness as well, but obviously you have to literally turn up the heat in a sauna to get people out of the comfort zone. Well, with food, you can give something unknown or maybe slightly borderline fermented in order to create >> quite extreme responses.

[00:16:51]>> Yeah. How do you think about um when you create an experience like that, how do you think about like the experiencecape?

[00:16:59]Like do you have like a structure to it?

[00:17:01]Are there certain elements that there not necessarily a repetition but there's a core foundational thought or approach that you that you take as part of that that work?

[00:17:12]>> I always break it down into three different archetypes. It's like because there's some people who like to follow rules and there's some people are more questioning and then there's just a medium. So you can almost assume. So I really like to really think through how your experience makes people feel and then obviously you can only assume that the majority of people but then I really like to play towards the outliers the people are more cynical that people and how do you break them >> all the people pleasers so if you if you design an experience you can almost guess that in the western world most or if you >> if you learn how to that to read from left to right that you would follow going clockwise around a big room you can see that as well in an report. While obviously in a world where you've accustomed to reading right to left, you would go the other way around. But obviously it is almost taking everyone and making everyone walk the same way and being aware of cultural differences.

[00:18:05]Maybe that's where anthropology comes in. It's like that you have maybe like using sound to make everyone go clockwise in a room maybe through smell or like through sound. And I think that's really powerful to really break it down into different behaviors because obviously they're much more, you know, like union archetypes are different behavior archetypes because obviously it's very important to to have in mind how do you what is the end result? What do you want to make people feel? How do you get there? But then based on different archetypes because people are different. But you can almost what is beautiful and really nice how you can break it down to very simple overlapping archetypes. Yeah. So the Yeah. The people pleaser or the the renegade.

[00:18:46]>> Quite similar in museums, right? The swimmers, skimmers, and divers. It's quite similar. Yeah. Interesting.

[00:18:51]Let's talk about sensory. Um obviously food and taste and and smell, but also sound and and yeah, images and everything bringing it kind of all together. How do you how do you factor that in? How do you play with that with those different elements?

[00:19:05]>> Well, I my my favorite thing is when you really change and you you like really alter people's perception. And I think in order to do this if you surprise people take them out of the comfort zone suddenly their mind is altered and everything is more like oh god okay that's so wide and that feels really heavy and just drawing attention towards that. So it's it's maybe like a a mindfulness exercise on steroids. Yeah.

[00:19:28]>> And I really like how the senses interact. And I think the >> the cross modalities between the senses, you know, how much music can really not manipulate but modulate and nuance what we taste or how we perceive taste and how you can really bring bring it out.

[00:19:44]So obviously like talking about seaweed it's it's nice obviously it is anchored within the terror of the sea and but actually help and there's a certain mouthful so it's really drying almost clawing on your tongue and how can you create sounds that counteract that and work almost as a condiment not just as a background music so it's not of course you can have Mexican food and listen to Mexican music there's nothing wrong with that might be cultural appropriation but that's a different thing but >> how do you going to create the perfect soundsscape to make seaweed to really bring all your attention to it and actually almost made that experience of eating seaweed the best experience ever.

[00:20:22]So it's like so so I've been working a lot with unusual ingredients and we kind of be bespoke soundcapes and I worked with loads of other amazing sound designers and DJs and so because obviously there's a really beautiful interest in immersive experience design at the moment and but how can you really alter alter that and how do you add a certain yeah like almost make music as a special condiment to kind of add the flavor or like the sound but like when actually the act of eating changes is the way you perceive music and I find that really fascinating.

[00:20:55]>> Tell us more about that.

[00:20:56]>> Um well sound has a really huge impact the way that almost packaging is designed. So it's like obviously when you open a pack of crisps they they don't need to be designed so loud but obviously that added crunch makes them feel fresh and crunchy.

[00:21:11]>> Yes.

[00:21:11]>> So that's almost factored in. It's like they could be in some like completely different packaging. So if you actually eat crisps that are not on the packaging, the perception would be that they taste ever so slightly staler. So I find that really interesting. So a lot of the the the crunch element has that.

[00:21:27]And then there are certain foods that coffee that lie on the same it's equally bitter or sweet. But if you listen to music that brings out sweetness, which is like a high frequency, you perceive it as sweeter. And if you have a low frequency then it you it brings out a bitterness in the same taste. And I think that's something that is fascinating because it's universally true. But if you watch a movie >> and you have the baddy come on, you have a very low frequency and it's obviously straight away communicating you like there's something dark and dangerous coming in. And if you have the good person, that angelic person, it's accompanied by really beautiful >> like you know high notes and easy melodic music. So I think you can almost yeah prompt people and almost yeah modulate towards it and I think it's fascinating and the first time I heard this like oh that's not possible and >> um yeah I was really excited about it >> and tell me so we have on the table here we have some items that I think >> we're going to >> um seaweed what what what just out of interest like what what could what could we imagine now in terms of sounds and soundscape.

[00:22:40]>> Do you? Oh, amazing.

[00:22:43]>> Um, I think obviously the Yeah. So, as I mentioned before, seaweed is really dry.

[00:22:47]Um, >> it's an interesting one because it's completely vegan and what I really like if you listen to certain soundsscape how much it can ta taste like fish and obviously that is for me working with bigger brands and experiences obviously on that individual experience. But if you need to shift from a sustainable point of view into eating less fish and over fishing, how can we actually change eating behavior on a bigger scale? So I think that's interesting. So I have a soundsscape here I prepared for you to listen to. And obviously maybe we uh do you want to close your eyes?

[00:23:23]>> Sure.

[00:23:23]>> During that, >> let's do it.

[00:23:26]>> So just just for those that aren't watching on video, what what do we have on the table? So the the first course on our menu today what we have prepared here is a a sheet of norine. So for listeners obviously you can recreate that as well and we can share that.

[00:23:42]>> So if you place the seaweed on onto your tongue but then try not to do anything and I'm going to >> play your >> close your eyes.

[00:23:49]>> Um ideally yes.

[00:23:50]>> Okay I'll do that >> and let it dissolve on its own like a cord. Don't do anything.

[00:23:55]>> Okay.

[00:23:57]Tight.

[00:24:41][Music] Yeah.

[00:26:30][Music] Yeah.

[00:27:19]That was wild.

[00:27:25]>> Wow.

[00:27:26]>> I'm always curious. That's what I'm like. I'm like I love the secret. This just >> So this is crazy. Okay. So the I How do I even describe this? So firstly, I was immediately transported to like a like a a yeah like a what do you call it? Like a seaside town with fisherman and uh boats and things like that. Like really. And then as we went and then with the water as it went the water went up and increased with the waves the taste deepened. So it got super deep. I can't explain it. Like enhanced. It just went super and as we carried on in the water cuz obviously I think we were under the water, weren't they? It kind of then starting to lighten and and it as if it kind of almost lifted perfectly with the with the music towards the end.

[00:28:22]It was crazy.

[00:28:24]>> Mhm.

[00:28:25]>> But they working with that. We had like this parameters like the estimated consumption time. So the moment you go underneath the water, do you want some water?

[00:28:33]>> No. I won't go. moment you need go underneath the water, >> that's the moment that the saliva comes almost into play in your mouth. So it's really bizarre that sensation. So again, it's an approximation, but so it's designed so for at first it sits on your tongue and then you're on the thing and then suddenly as your body managed like to kind of almost send saliva into your mouth because it's so dry.

[00:28:57]>> That's when you go underneath the water.

[00:28:59]So it's like usually that happens. You can almost estimate at the same time. So you have that weird sensation of being dragged into the water sometimes know it's like the >> that's amazing.

[00:29:08]>> So it's interesting how you can map out the space and like you know colors sound because obviously you bring that to the table because >> assuming that you've been to a seaside so that's like it's a pristian memory like response that you like you bring all of that seight comes out of your own like draw and like you bring people bring that to the table.

[00:29:29]>> It was like an essence. It wasn't just a flavor. It was really that element was also just to add into this in terms of me. Um there's a piece here as well as you were talking about the audience um the different the different archetypes of the audience. So although I'm into experiences I had to also let go for a minute as well. recognized internally. I know. Just let go. Go with this. Like it's this is great >> because food is not like something on the screen. People are more willing to but like food is like what am I supposed to do? And obviously it's a very natural response.

[00:30:02]>> Yeah.

[00:30:02]>> Because obviously it's like I'm not sure what it is. It's like I like that because obviously it's not allergenic.

[00:30:07]So you can work with like something like this. You can play towards the people or but it's amazing how it actually tastes like fish.

[00:30:15]>> It did very much.

[00:30:16]>> So people really like go like oh but there's fish in there. It's like but no it's seaweed. I think it's a really beautiful.

[00:30:21]>> That's a very good It does. It's very fishy.

[00:30:24]>> Yeah. But often people ask like, "Oh, you know, it sounds really self-indulgent. What are immersive experiences and what's the application?"

[00:30:30]So, for me, it's working. I was um lucky to work um like there was a government food campaign. So, it's like how can you actually apply a lot of these experience like like immersive experiential knowledge on a to a bigger scale. So I think that's really interesting because >> can I just ask whether you whether you know this just curious what happened what was happening to me biologically as a human as I'm engaging with the just simple thing of putting seaweed in my mouth and listening to music. It's a beautifully simple example but there's so much complexity going on. Yeah, I think it's like definitely like it it's kind of almost like a co- pollination of of of both things because obviously the seaweed unlocked nuances obviously this you should have had like a real Dolby surround speaker system but >> amazing >> um unlock nuances in the music that you wouldn't have listened to before because obviously it helps the music it's like it becomes a multi-ensory show >> and weirdly >> the seaweed helps you almost experience the the sound almost on your tongue So it's like a full >> body experience because usually like see hearing something it's again sound is really powerful but it it becomes more than the sum of its parts. Yeah like in Germany says it's like gazam swag. So it's like it's it's more like one plus one makes three because otherwise you have the music and then you have seaweed and then the music really brings out nuances of the >> of the seaweed. So you have obviously the mouth feel, the texture and the terror and it it plays to all three kinds the idea that you go because it's obviously not a linear piece. So you go it has a beginning, middle and end. You stand on the beach and you go into the water, you dive right underneath the waist and then you come back out again.

[00:32:13]So it is like >> humans respond really well to a little journey if even like however simplistic it is. So it's not just because obviously you could just have linear abstract sea sound but then it wouldn't be because you want to go into that and obviously you then like project your own experiences of being in the seaside and some people say actually but then you have fear of drowning. So it actually can have weird trauma response. So I had some people like oh my god I like almost drowned once as a teenager and that really brought that back. It's like okay that's very powerful how that can be unlocked.

[00:32:46]>> Yeah.

[00:32:48]>> Yeah. But it it cross pollinates. It's like one or the other. I'm not sure sometimes what leads with which. Some people obviously are very >> much taste driven >> or music driven, but I think it's it's it's beautiful because it really you're right in between the two. So it hangs >> that's amazing >> in between space.

[00:33:04]>> I mean we can trick our brain. I say it doesn't know doesn't doesn't know the the difference between what's real and not real half the time. Anyway, >> that's really powerful. I think in order to when it comes to virtual reality and things and I think having then food really anchors it and makes everything more real because it really it's happening in your own. So I think often our brain is so overused by through visuals and over like visual and sonic stimul stimul so that we don't really >> we have to filter it out in order to survive. It's like the idea of have to stop looking >> but when it comes to food because obviously it's there's a danger of being poisoned.

[00:33:38]>> Yeah.

[00:33:38]>> As well. So I think food is fascinating.

[00:33:40]It's like the last bastion where we still have agency because you can still decide that you open your mouth. Well, the onslaught of sound and visuals is very um you don't really have agency to stop to stop it.

[00:33:53]>> It's very underrepresented, isn't it? In the in the but that for me is opportunity always.

[00:33:59]>> I think it's but I think it's always been used. surfing the ultimate, you know, like anchor point to most world religions and even smaller cults is actually or like the cult of the barista coffee thing. This is always actually the food element. It's almost the most it's under represented but I think it's the core element.

[00:34:16]>> Yeah, I agree.

[00:34:17]>> Comes down to it.

[00:34:18]>> What else do we have? What other wizardrys do you have for me? is the only way to follow this up with a with a bit of a I think what is interesting is that because we're now deep diving into like flavor and taste and texture and a lot of people I think when it comes down to it they don't actually know how to describe taste or when it comes down to >> describing whisies or wine because I think people are a bit unsure are they describing flavor or taste. So I think it's just really interesting how even our nose comes into play as well because obviously that sound but now smell is so much of how we perceive taste as well and we all had that experience of you know you have a cold and suddenly you crave chili because everything else tastes a bit bland or for some obscure reason everyone you know every time you're airborne everyone loves that you have tomato juice or like a bloody mary tastes really good. So there's something interesting in your hearing when it comes to taste. Yeah.

[00:35:12]>> So, we're just going to try to um taste cinnamon, but maybe if you just close your nose for me.

[00:35:18]>> Okay.

[00:35:19]>> So, no air comes through.

[00:35:21]>> And then I better put some cinnamon >> maybe on the back.

[00:35:27]>> And then if you just lick it >> and then open it, open the nose.

[00:35:40]Oh my god.

[00:35:45]Do you want to try it? Come. This is amazing.

[00:35:49]>> Take it closer. I was excited to kiss your Swedish so you know. Make sure there's nothing there.

[00:35:58]Wow. That cute.

[00:36:03]>> And wow.

[00:36:06]So yeah, cinnamon is just flavor. That's just our nose taste. This what we think we taste is actually our nose taste.

[00:36:13]It's just amazing to what extent our nose or old factory is >> is uh is actually creating >> that sensation of taste. So it's interesting.

[00:36:24]>> I had a a very multi like minute this feeling of like being a bit dis like dis disorientated by that. That was really funny.

[00:36:36]>> It was really weird.

[00:36:36]>> You don't trust your senses. Yeah. I was like, and then I kind of went like that and then I kind of was like, "Oh, what was that? Oh, oh, wow."

[00:36:42]>> Yeah. So, I think it's it's fascinating.

[00:36:45]>> Okay. Try this trick at home. It's very good.

[00:36:47]>> It's really simple, but I think it really helps you identify as well like reading and obviously a lot of in wine tastings or whiskey tastings people do that that you cannot actually really trust your nose. It's like obviously you know what looks really pompous when it comes to like the idea what's the nose and something but actually there is so much in like our nose and I think it's like when it comes to creating experiences as well it's like something like subconsciously what we taste but we think like oh I think the real under represented thing is obviously the smell >> interesting and also that placement of that smell in the journey is quite interesting and part of an interphase when people arrive it could be like a pallet cleanser to the outside world as then they enter into a a food engagement type service. Um, >> but I think we all use scent to almost create our own immersive experiences. I think it's really interesting how the sale of scented candles skyrocketed.

[00:37:39]That's like everyone who is interested kind like we're all willing to spend 50 60 or 70 quid for it but because we and then obviously have a different set of candle for the evening or the morning or when so they are it's interesting how people actually use in their private habitat and actually a lot of restaurants do it as well like the idea of using scent as something as part of the experience but timebased different ones as well. Yes, I actually saw that there's a there's a business in Europe somewhere, Seni I think it is. They're really big on on employee experience design, but they're really going in on it like really I'm very impressed with the B a the investment in the team. Um but all this intentionality to the experience they want to have for the employees. However, I noticed the other day that they actually created their own scent in for their uh offices and they actually did a whole experiment and chose one. So it's a really >> so I think the office has to smell of something idea you know airsoft smells of something there is a real recognizable scent. So these days I think there are brand designers and actually I worked on projects as well where people really create a different scent but like it's it's not just the one scent like maybe there's a scent for I love that the nonlinearity that the perfect morning scent is more refreshing rather than the evening one and I think that's interesting how especially restaurants they really like alter that as well.

[00:38:58]>> Yeah. How else have you played with this as well with smell and taste?

[00:39:02]>> Well, obviously because when people when talk about flavor, there's something really interesting as well. Like when it comes to coffee and because I was working on a project, well, at the moment with EEG data and um the actual impact of drinking coffee to our brain is the moment we smell it, not when we actually consume it. So we think we actually physically need the coffee, but that wake up and smell the coffee moment actually happens. The moment you hold on to your cup and it's really close and then you smell it. This is the moment if you've been conditioned to drink coffee that your brain is awake. That's the moment you wake up. So it's actually really interesting how smell is you don't actually have to drink the coffee.

[00:39:39]So in order to have that feeling of being moving up for your brain activity, >> you're triggering that.

[00:39:44]>> Your body still needs the coffee for other reasons. that in order to trigger that brain activity to wake yourself up.

[00:39:49]It's a smell. So, I think that's really fascinating as well.

[00:39:52]>> Wow. Wow. You're opening our our world, hopefully a listener's world right now with this. This is amazing. Um, what else do we have on the table? I'm curious about >> the last thing on the menu is a simple banana. I think it's just because um talking to you I thought like it's really interesting just because breaking the habitat and the habits and being really different with like how we used to do it and having that inality is not just about >> the complicated ingredient. It's more about how we get to it. So I thought it might be really interesting to maybe put a blindfold on and um eat a banana have these forks which I once made. So they obviously it's just fun to actually have different dining implements as well. So just >> explain this explain this fork for our listeners as well. Caroline, >> there are different forks. I they I called them heaven or hell and it's based on a really old horrible the idea of that in in in a land far away people instead of arms had um like folks and in in one version people learn how to feed each other. And in one they tried forever to to reach the food with themselves and I thought that's really nice. So actually I just without mentioning the back parable I just once created them for the dinner party and it was interesting how on some evenings people fed themselves and um it was in the garden and some evenings depending on the mood as well like people started just to realizing it's much easier if you feed the person episode. So hence calling them that heaven and hell fox.

[00:41:26]>> I love it.

[00:41:26]>> Interesting. So it's like the whole obviously playing with all the elements when it comes to eating. So I think it's like but my thing is not food itself but it's the act of eating act of experiencing eating and coming together and the community and how it holds.

[00:41:42]Yeah. From almost holding communion and bringing bringing things together and dislikes. I love that the best bonding is when people say like oh my god I hate >> so and so like whatever food items it is. I think I have whole friendships based on active dislike of certain foods as well or overdone meat or something like this. And I think that there holds a lot of potential. I think whole feuds in some families are based because people do their turkey wrongs. I think that's I quite like the the anger when it comes to the emotion when it comes to it. Should we get some nice?

[00:42:13]>> Sure. Let's do it.

[00:42:14]>> So if you um pop the blindfold on and I think you we could make that even a game show. Who's going to finish the banana first?

[00:42:23]Oh my. Okay, let's do it.

[00:42:25]>> No pressure.

[00:42:26]>> No.

[00:42:28]So, >> choose your weapons.

[00:42:30]>> Oh, hang on. Oh my god.

[00:42:33]Can you just uh un thing it? Just use your hands to >> No.

[00:42:38]>> Oh, you're not No hands at all. Not even to >> I don't even think I've got the knife the right way around.

[00:42:52]Okay, I got something [Music] to see this no choking is at your own risk.

[00:43:07]>> Okay, I think is Caroline like an expert. She's already like >> I'm not sure I can have his skin on. No, there was nothing there.

[00:43:23][Music] [Laughter] Hang on. Right. Come on. Come on, Asha.

[00:43:31]You can do it. I don't go.

[00:43:42]Right. Hang on. I'm going to have to go.

[00:43:46]I can hear Nina in pieces.

[00:43:50]No.

[00:43:55]Wow.

[00:44:00][Laughter] No, I have got I've definitely got some skin off there. Hang on.

[00:44:10]>> You can eat the skin as well, but you know, like I think you would still win, >> right? Come on.

[00:44:29]I can't even get click.

[00:44:31]>> You almost have to use your hearing gear.

[00:44:35]>> Right. Hang on. Yeah.

[00:44:43]>> Yeah.

[00:44:51]>> They're cheating using their hands now.

[00:44:53]>> Okay. I'm going to join you. Hang on.

[00:44:55]Yeah. So, kind of remnants of a banana's left on my >> Okay, I'm going to pick.

[00:45:00]>> So, I think I definitely clearly win.

[00:45:02]>> Oh, wow. Let's have a look.

[00:45:06]Oh, wow. Look at stay at that.

[00:45:12]Oh, that's hilarious.

[00:45:17]So, what's the reflection from that? I think I'm I got to My brain's kind of hurting on the side.

[00:45:24]I think it's quite good people are saying you're supposed to obviously always go outside that comfort zone and interact with things on a different way.

[00:45:32]But what my point here being is like it's it's really interesting to >> to have the like you know banana is something so bleedingly simple. You don't have to do something complicated but it's almost the experience of eating the banana. So it's not about the banana. my interest experience of eating the banana and giving people an experience they never had before. So it doesn't have to be so complicated.

[00:45:55]That's what I'm trying to explain. And I think it's like or like kind of just share like it's just really funny and it's like the idea of but it makes you taste it and like experience in a different way and it's like you know it's it's a really fun way and I think it's like obviously there's fun and laughter but there it's it's a really interesting when it comes to yeah immersing the banana into yourself but like expressing itself in the texture of the banana fantastic >> and it becomes so memorable. It's a really fun thing. I mean, I'm crying. I am genuinely crying with laughter. That was absolutely fantastic. There's um by the way, every household should have one of these for sure. This is awesome.

[00:46:36]Um I love that. It it it became it kind of became Yeah, there's a competition bit kind of kicks in, but it kind of also a puzzle to figure out, which is really interesting.

[00:46:49]>> It becomes really tactile in a different way. You use all your senses and obviously that taste is the payoff but then you're already aware of that the smell of the banana when you open it and the and you almost have to use your sense of hearing. It's like okay am I hearing it right? So >> oh that was brilliant >> multiensory simple things. So it's like obviously I like and I'm very lucky as well to work with very complicated stage design dining experiences and immersive experiences but I think it's it is really interesting just to kind of strip it down and actually work like how can we push the limit with the simplest ingredients possible.

[00:47:26]So Caroline, tell me a little let's kind of while I kind of bring my brain back down to uh yeah the the podcast. Um yeah, so as we kind of like uh widen the lens from like yeah this kind of experiential food into maybe more into the business end into um creating events and these types of things. What what's what's been kind of your experience in that? What have you kind of brought to the table? You got any examples you can share with us? Um >> yeah it's it's really interesting because obviously working with that you can always clients are always really adamant of working with food then obviously you have the hurdles of legal going through it all but once all of that trust is there and they surrender to your creative >> um like I don't know insanity ideas it's really fun and I think it's really good because then you become obviously if you want to create memorable brand activations it's actually really powerful and to create that. So obviously that's the joy of obviously at the moment working in at the moment with reduced costs obviously you can like reach much much more people like fewer people in a much more meaningful way and I think that's really powerful >> agree >> I think >> yeah you don't need you don't need like huge necessarily huge budgets necessarily um because obviously yeah you can >> but just think about scaling that up on a bigger thing like with projections with the whole thing But I think it is interesting I think it's like when it comes to you know like when it come yeah food advertising, drinks advertising but just general experiences people are willing to to because I think everyone has been onboarded. So now I think everyone has obviously like already there's such a hunger but not for these kind of experiences to go out of psychic comfort zone to to I don't know eat something while sweating in a sauna while listening to weird things while being exposed to strobe lighting that people are really craving that and they're happy to sign away every single waiver just in order to feel more and to to have like a changed you know mind altered experience or like being more aware of their mind body access. So I think food is a really fabulous way to play with that. So it's a nice time to be in that area as well because I think >> the general public is really up for it and I think it's like they've been almost universally onboarded and everyone it's like give us more and they're they want to be pushed to the limit. I think probably to kind of create content for their own stuff that's not easily replicatable like >> and there's a hunger for everything needs to be more provocative, more cross, more out there.

[00:50:09]>> Yes. Where's the where's the opportunity as well around accessibility for this as well in terms of the general public should we say um you know that where to kind of weave this into the everyday um as well the opportunities there. um opposite you can share that easily through social media. I mean when it comes to sound files it's really fabulous to share through like you know like IQ like QR codes and you know you could have a and I worked with saints boost before when it comes to cheese where we actually like created the soundsscape of the the heritage and the terror of the individual cheese so people could easily download it in the supermarket. So we bec like it became like your sonic cheese monger. So that's actually funny on a bigger scale. But obviously when it comes to the at home experience as well, it's like the idea of the reason we pray and have people around is in order to break barriers and to forge connection and create community. And often people forget that.

[00:51:09]It's like it's not about proving how amazing you are as a cook. It's just about just having a good laugh around the table. So I think that's a and food is often the the icebreaker and food is obviously being used for centuries.

[00:51:21]Yeah.

[00:51:21]>> In that way. And the reason we don't have sharp knives and every time they should order a steak uh in a restaurant they actually make a big son dance of bringing you the the knife is because traditionally it's where we leave weapons and sharp knives behind. So that's why um knives at a table are usually very they're not sharp and they're intentionally not sharp because this is where we come together >> to break bad.

[00:51:46]actually the very moment they actually bring it out but only for that moment when they take it away and I quite like that sentiment as well.

[00:51:55]Amazing. So yeah, like at home office, you kind of woo people with those forks, ask them to eat the banana blindfold and and do those things. But I think it's a remember as well like food is a moment of creating things and understanding something about where people come from, their story, their culture as well because you know you eat their food and you kind of connect with them on a really beautiful Yeah.

[00:52:18]metaphysical level. That's a really important thing. Very just in terms of uh a closing reflection that we can kind of perhaps co-create or share, what would you what would you like to impart on the audience today to Yeah. to to to from just this wonderful kind of uh discipline or lens that you have through a food lens. Um what would you like to impart or share? I think I think the one thing I mean obviously it's up to people but people are craving a lot of mindfulness and awareness and they're seeking it out through quite complicated retreats and things and nothing when it's not internalized and doesn't come within you. You can almost start seeking it with drinking water in a certain way or coffee in a certain mindful way and interacting with really simple food items. And when it comes to flavor, noticing that in a much more meaningful, mindful way, which I think is more sustainable. It's financially sustainable, environmentally more sustainable.

[00:53:24]>> Yeah.

[00:53:24]>> And you know, like physically as well more sustainable. So I think that's a really interesting way for it. I think just because it starts small rather than creating the mind like you don't need to almost start with the yawask like in order. I think that should be the the final bastion rather than than changing like you know like having that mind altering experience while listening to a soundsscape >> with with like eating seaweed could give you a certain amount of you know like micro dosing on that awareness >> yes >> journey.

[00:53:55]>> Yeah Caroline, thank you so much. Um I really appreciate that you've messed with my chemistry set today. Um, I've absolutely loved coming to your kitchen today, spending time with you, um, in your natural habitat. Um, very kind. I'm so grateful. And, um, the seaweed. I think just a quick reflection back. I think there's this really interesting thing around just bringing more intentionality to food period. I think you're right. I think that in the experiential world, there's a lot of emphasis on visuals and I think food can play an even bigger part. I think in terms of bringing so much more value to people. So um I think this is a wonderful showcase of that and thank you so much and um very grateful for you joining the podcast.

[00:54:42]>> Wonderful to have you to to share share this this food item.

[00:54:48]>> It's been amazing. Thank you so much.

[00:54:50]>> Thank you for letting me win the banana.

[00:54:53]>> You won that one fair square for sure.

[00:54:55]Um but Karen, thank you so much and um thank you