Integrating IFS and EMDR Therapy: A Clinical Guide for Complex Trauma

[00:00:03]Welcome everyone to the IFS Down Under podcast where we have deep conversations with leaders in the IFS community and share the stories and the wisdom of Australian IFS therapists. I'm your host um Oliver Brooke. I'm here today with my co-host Lani Lees. Welcome Laurani.

[00:00:19]Great to be with you again.

[00:00:22]>> Good to see you as well um Ollie and hello Stephanie.

[00:00:27]>> Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[00:00:31]>> Yeah. Welcome, Daphne.

[00:00:34]So, just before we, you know, fully introduce you and and Rani's going to do a little bio for you, I'm going to do an acknowledgement of of country and maybe talk about like the intention of this interview. So, um we acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on on which we're meeting. Um for me, that's the Wajak Nunga people. Um, and I pay my respects to their elders and their healers, past, present, and emerging. Um, and also to any other ancestors or elders across Australia and the United States that might be um, present on the lands on which we're gathering.

[00:01:18]And I also want to pay my respects to um each of our ancestral lineages um yours the Rani and yours Dafany and mine and welcome any um support that might be here for us today as we have this conversation.

[00:01:32]Um and the intention for this interview, you know, is to really um give you the space, Stephanie, to share with our community about um yeah, your journey with IFS and EMDR and to share um yeah, more about uh your new book. So, I'll let Lani talk a little bit about that.

[00:01:50]Yeah, welcome everyone.

[00:01:54]>> Yeah, thanks Ollie. So, it's with great pleasure um just want to welcome you Deafany. Um so Deafany Federa is a PhD is a licensed psychologist, clinical trainer, consultant, author, an international speaker dedicated to providing education on integrative traumainformed therapies.

[00:02:18]She's certified in EMDR, is an IMDria approved EMDR consultant with 20 years, probably even more, definely, of clinical experience providing trauma treatment and a certified ancestral lineage healing practitioner.

[00:02:37]So, Deafany is experienced in working with intergenerational and historical traumas.

[00:02:44]Um, and what's very exciting is that defin um, Deafany is also going to be releasing her very um, soon exciting new book called Integrating IFS into EMDR Therapy, the stepby-step guide to complex trauma recovery. And it will be released on the 27th of January. So, next week.

[00:03:05]>> Yes. Very soon. Yes, very soon.

[00:03:08]>> Oh, congratulations. Um, very exciting.

[00:03:12]So, welcome Stephanie.

[00:03:14]>> Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here. Yeah.

[00:03:18]>> Yeah. We're really excited to have you on the show. Thank you. Thank you for being here.

[00:03:24]>> Yes. Yes. A real treat. So, so Deafany um I just want to ask, you know, as I was reading through your bio and just um you know, just thinking about your work, it's clear that you have such an extensive experience across a wide range of therapeutic modalities.

[00:03:42]of course EMDR IFS >> ancestral linkage healing which is Daniel For's um work and many others.

[00:03:51]Could you share a little bit about how you first came into this field and how your training and professional interest have evolved over time?

[00:04:00]>> Sure. So I um came into this field. I I I actually started out after university in corporate America which was not a good fit for me. Um and quickly left and actually felt pulled to really study spirituality particularly Buddhism. Um so I actually moved to Thailand um and lived there and and spent time in different um monasteries, Buddhist monasteries studying uh vipasana meditation and practicing and studying Buddhism. Um and then I ended up have having one of my first kind of spiritual teachers there um who was more of a dowist teacher. So also learned a lot of energy work practices um and came back to the states and started teaching meditation classes and mindfulness classes. And this was a long time ago. This was like gosh, this was probably 2001 around that time. And um I quickly, you know, as I was sharing mindfulness practices with with people um quickly learned that some people had trauma reactions. So I had a person have a lot of trauma memories come up once they slowed down and were really sitting with their body and then I had another person um have almost a panic attack um practicing mindfulness meditation. Um, so I decided if I was going to continue to offer some sort of mindfulness-based meditation class, I really needed to, you know, become a trained therapist.

[00:05:38]Um, so that's really where my journey started. That's really out of my own curiosity. Um and that curiosity has led me a lot of places in terms of learning different models. Um getting my masters, getting my PhD, you know, studying IFS, studying EMDR, um other models as well.

[00:05:58]Um I know Loren, you mentioned the Daniel Fors model, the ancestral lineage healing model, which is to me very integrative also in my work. um just you know no matter what modality I'm doing I'm always also kind of thinking of the intergenerational piece and ancestral piece as well. Um uh but yes so that's that's really how I ended up here and I really consider myself I mean I'm very integrative thus my book that's really focused on integrating EMDR and internal family systems. So I really consider myself more of an integrative trauma consultant. um you know more than anything in terms of just providing support to other mental health providers.

[00:06:42]>> Yeah. So so wonderful. Definitely. I can hear the breadth and depth of that experience and the um and and the journey of of your your of all your experiences. I'm just wondering um Davany for our listeners who are more IFS focused and may need a little bit of refresher on EMDR >> um could you would you please just give us like a almost like an EMDR 101 intro so that we can speak a bit more about the integration.

[00:07:13]>> Absolutely. So EMDR stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing therapy. And as the story goes um similar to IFS, it had a founder. Um um and so the uh founder uh Dr. uh Shapiro was in graduate school herself and she was walking through a park and noticed that her eyes moved back and forth very quickly and she also had a trauma history and noticed that when she felt bad or had a trigger, if she moved moved her eyes back and forth really quickly, she felt calmer. So, she began to experiment with that. um and thus eye movement desensitization and uh reprocessing therapy EMDR was born. Um since then we now know so much more about the brain. So more recently and I want to give credit to the founders of what's called EMDR 2.0 which is out of the Netherlands. We now understand that in terms of EMDR reprocessing, we're really taxing the working memory. That's what the eye movements do. So, it's not necessarily the eye movements that are the magic part of EMDR. It's taxing the working memory. And we do that in lots lots of different ways in EMDR, including eye movements. Um, so EMDR is, you know, a trauma treatment. It's very evidence-based um for lots of different populations um um really for trauma treatment.

[00:08:50]>> Yes. Yes. And so a follow-up question to that Deafany then what made you curious like bring the two together?

[00:08:58]>> You know um trauma treatment for anyone is not a one-sizefits-all and EMDR uh there are different protocols for it and you really do need to adapt the protocols to the client um to really meet the client where they are. in my clinical experience is predominantly treating post-traumatic stress disorder and people that have complex trauma histories. And so you really have to adapt any EMDR protocol to really have it be beneficial. So what inspired me to write my book was just based on my clinical experience. um when I learned internal family systems, how to help support a client's parts to give consent and be on board with a treatment to do um reprocessing through EMDR uh was part of my excitement once I learned IFS, you know, and and you'll hear this from any EMDR therapist who ever has learned IFS. If they've ever learned EMFDR first, it's impossible for them not to see some connection with IFS. They're they're beautiful a beautiful caring in terms of therapeutic modalities because they both are very non-pathological.

[00:10:15]They both believe in the you know the natural healing mechanisms that are in the client that they naturally have.

[00:10:22]While IFS that's more self in EMDR they have this notion of it's more brain oriented. It's called the adaptive information processing model which we can see if we bring in IFS that self.

[00:10:36]And so, um, they really pair just so beautifully together. So that's what really inspired me because I could actually see it helping people to blend these two practices and really support them no matter where they are in their therapy journey, whether they're just beginning therapy and get, you know, need to kind of befriend parts first, whether they're really deep and they're ready for to do more intensive trauma treatment like EMDR, the reprocessing of EMDR, or if they're really integrating therapeutic gains, we can move back into parts work um and strengthen that with also some EMDR. So, it's a just a wonderful pairing of two models.

[00:11:20]>> Wonderful.

[00:11:20]>> Yeah.

[00:11:22]Thanks for sharing that, Dany. Yeah. Um and I'm kind of wondering, you know, is there a story or a particular moment in your clinical work that kind of captures the power of integrating those two? Like could you share like an example of when that's really kind of come together? you know what you were just describing like in a in a Yeah.

[00:11:44]>> Yeah. I think in the reprocessing in EMDR once I knew the IFS protocol particularly the healing steps and working with exiles if people were getting stuck in reprocessing. So reprocessing is in EMDR is where you are working with traumatic memory and trying to desensitize it. So really bringing down changing how it's stored in the brain very similar to IFS using memory reconsolidation just like IFS does. And so um I could see where people were getting stuck if they weren't naturally their brains weren't naturally able to move through it using using EMDR protocol then it's like oh let's you know let that part know you're right here with it. Is there anything it needs from you? um does it need to be retrieved? Let's get it out of that scene so it knows who you are now. Let's give it an update of who you are. So, a lot of befriending techniques and retrieval and techniques that we would do with the healing steps. I just started um uh really noticing how much that helps particularly the retrieval step because by bringing in that retrieval step within EMDR the reprocessing where we're working with traumatic memory it really can decrease the activation right because it it really helps that part know that was over this is over you know that was then this is now as we say a lot in EMDR in the EMDR world we say that a lot that was then, this is now. So, we're helping that part know that was then, this is now, and really giving it a big update.

[00:13:24]And that changes the autonomic um state of that part. So, even on a physiological level, if that part is in high arousal or high anxiety and we can use that retrieval step during reprocessing if we need to, that can bring down the arousal level of that part. So it can can really connect to the client's self and that can be reperative.

[00:13:54]>> That's so interesting. And so what I'm hearing is that it's not kind of replacing the healing steps in the IFS model. It's like you're kind of adding in the reprocessing into the healing steps and you're kind of Yeah.

[00:14:12]>> Exactly. Yes. Exactly. And really with blending these two models, you can bring um we with EMDR we do have to follow with the framework of what's called the eight phases. But in phase 4, which is when we do the trauma reprocessing, that's really what's what we're doing with those healing steps. So if a client is getting stuck and doing IFS, we can switch to EMDR and do the reprocessing using EMDR. If a client needs a what we would consider an IFS, what we call interweavves and EMDR, whereas just an intervention that's more of a relational IFS intervention, we can do that um in terms of blending the two models.

[00:14:58]>> Okay.

[00:14:59]>> Yeah.

[00:15:00]>> Great. And I think the is going to ask some more like nuanced questions about exactly what you're talking about. So, I might kind of pause that here and I I just want to take us back to something you said before around um you know there's there's people in the IFS community and at some points I've been one of them and I've heard other people say that they feel kind of protective of IFS when they think about EMDR and that some people are worried that um it's going to impact the self-toart relationship and that because of >> because of kind of the directive um nature of doing the reprocessing. Um, and I was just wondering like how does that work with protectors and is that a thing really when you're integrating them in the way that you're describing?

[00:15:45]It doesn't sound like it is. It sounds like you kind of bring them on board, but how do you how do you work with the protectors before you do any of the the phase 4 reprocessing? Yeah.

[00:15:56]>> Yeah. So, we work with protectors more early on in the therapy. And that's just like we would in IFS. we get protector consent before we would do exile work and IFS. The same with EMDR. We want to get the protector consent and really follow the system and make sure parts are on board that we're going to do EMDR um and that they understand they can ask questions um so that they can give us access to whatever we need to to process through EMDR whether that and and in general we typically process exiles experiences in EMDR but you can also work with protectors and do reprocessing with protectors too. So there's not a hard and fast rule about that. Um yeah, so we would use um befriending techniques from IFS with the understanding that our treatment plan will integrate EMDR at some point. Um you know, I mean, if it's clinically appropriate, right? If the client's interested, if it makes sense um that it would be beneficial to them and they're interested in more accelerated trauma reprocessing um then they would be a good candidate for more of an integrative approach.

[00:17:13]>> Yeah. Okay. And has that the way that you just described it sounded like that is the integrated approach, right? using IFS to really get the protectors on board and be with them and reassure them and and get their permission before using the reprocessing. Um, is that was that a part of the EMDR protocol before or is or is that kind of been brought in from IFS? Um, >> yeah, >> that's a great question. So, no, it's not part of the protocol before. Um the >> part of the EMDR protocol is to help the client have coping skills to really navigate emotion regulation before doing traditional EMDR. Bringing in IFS completely brings in, you know, the client system in such a relational way um that we are really making sure that clients are aware of their parts. We're bringing them into consciousness so they're not surprised.

[00:18:14]um you know we can do that through parts mapping like we would in traditional IFS we can do that with befriending but all in the context of okay and we're going to do this with the intention of moving towards doing EMDR at some point um yeah so prior to you know without that integration it's really more traditional coping skills um like grounding and you know breathing techniques visualization to prepare a client for reprocessing. My approach, as I describe in my book, is very integrative. I bring in, you know, the IFS. I also honor the coping skills as well. Some parts do benefit from coping skills. It's more of that integrative approach. Um, so it's not pure IFS.

[00:19:03]>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay, that makes a lot of sense to me. And so I guess like follow on from that um actually I want to give you an example. It's a personal one of of my experience. So um I experienced a number of kind of traumas in my childhood and um one of them was uh like a single incident physical assault when I was about six >> from an adult to me and um that traumatic memory bothered me you know my whole teenage life and into my adult life. And before I found IFS, I had a few EMDR sessions um on this specific memory. And um the therapist wasn't trained in IFS, so we just kind of went straight into the memory within like uh I think it was maybe on the first session or even maybe the second. So it was really kind of quick like straight into the um into the processing.

[00:20:01]And at the time it it worked in the sense that it desensitized that memory like it didn't it didn't come up and it wasn't as strong or activating anymore.

[00:20:10]But years later, I did an IFS session as a PA. Um, and they asked us as the PAs to bring in exile that we'd already worked with. And I brought forward this this memory.

[00:20:20]>> And when and when we were connecting with that part, um, and the the three kind of therapists were helping me with this part.

[00:20:29]Um, it was like they were in this like the ENDR had had taken them into a state where the the memory was like dissociated or like there wasn't a strong connection anymore from doing the um doing the reprocessing.

[00:20:47]And then I still, like you've described, the exile still needed some witnessing and it still needed a retrieval and it still needed um like a bit of a doover.

[00:20:58]And so, um, what you're saying really makes sense to me that actually like the two approaches alone are missing something. But >> kind of like once I got the IFS part with that exile, the rest of kind of the healing steps, it felt way more complete. even though the the EMDR had kind of like worked like you know like I was able to function and it helped me kind of externally. So I just wanted your thoughts on that.

[00:21:26]>> Um >> yeah that's that's a great that's a great case example. Yeah. So, I mean, I'd be curious. What I'm hearing is it sounds like the EMDR desensitized the memory in terms of bringing down the reactivity, but in terms of the so you could function and kind of move on with your life, but in terms of the integrative piece of okay, what does that mean for you and this part and what does that part need now going forward in your life? Um, you know, that's where the IFS can really help um with that integrative work even after the sort of desensitization that trauma reprocessing can do during EMDR.

[00:22:06]>> Yeah.

[00:22:06]>> Um, yeah. Does that does that resonate?

[00:22:09]>> Yeah. Yeah. Really resonates. Yeah.

[00:22:11]Yeah.

[00:22:12]>> Yeah.

[00:22:12]>> Yeah. And and before this before you integrated the two, you know, like I've heard other stories like that of people um experiencing EMDR without IFS and then there's like a protective backlash after the reprocessing.

[00:22:27]>> Is is that a thing? Yeah. People notic >> it can happen.

[00:22:31]>> Yeah, it can happen. It's I think it's less likely to happen with consent of the protectors.

[00:22:37]um it's more likely to happen with somebody with more of a complex trauma history where they may not we might have thought we got consent of all their parts but we didn't or some you know there was other system that we weren't aware of that then came online after the processing so even if there's backlash in this system whether we're doing EMDR or IFS we can still you know that would be the time to really use IFS for repair I mean that's a wonderful thing that IFS offers among many things IFS offers is ter in terms of that internal repair work around wow I didn't know you were upset or we we went a place you weren't expecting what do you need from me what do you need from the client you know let's really acknowledge what happened and have a repair um and so it can really offer that as an opportunity if a client needs that or if that backlash happens and because the backlash can happen in pure IFS it can happen in pure EMDR it can happen although less likely in my experience with an integrative approach. Um, but it can happen, you know.

[00:23:42]>> Yeah.

[00:23:44]>> Yeah. I really appreciate you naming that. Yeah. Those hidden systems of protectors. I liked what you said, you know, >> that that didn't come forward that that didn't express their concerns or weren't noticed in the session by the client or the therapist. Yeah. That can still have backlash even if we've got the permission. Yeah.

[00:24:03]>> Sure. and and bringing in more of the um EMDR sort of holistic approach, more of the neuroscience approach that that EMDR brings. When we're bringing in EMDR, we are considering that parts are on a memory network. So in IFS, we're doing typically, you know, parts are in a system of a memory network. Um but we may not get to the whole system. We may, but we may not, right? It just depends.

[00:24:32]In EMDR, it's really intended to, you know, really work with an entire memory network. And so when we think of backlash, we can get curious around, okay, maybe those parts, the conscious, the client wasn't conscious of them.

[00:24:47]Maybe we're in a different part of the memory network. One of the most common backlashes that I've experienced clinically is more clients having access to their anger, which is actually progress. that may show up as backlash also, but it it actually big picture is like this client never had permission to feel angry in their system. So for anger to come up is actually a really healing moment for them, you know, and for us to really welcome that. So I think it's, you know, we can kind of think about backlash in a lot of different ways.

[00:25:21]>> Yeah. Yeah. That's that's so helpful, Deafany, cuz um I I often consider backlash um as a way of is information for the system. It's a feedback that the system is offering you.

[00:25:36]>> And the beauty about EMDR and IFS is that you it's not linear. You can go back. So with for example with EMDR even if you're in the midst of doing the phase four and there's you know a reaction you're able there's an option for you to pause stop and then you can go back to phase two to really understand what just came up >> and that's where the you know IS training um understandable parts can really come into >> um handy where we can explore that part in this example you're mentioning about a part that carries anger and then doing that befriending and and going back and actually creating more um self energy or not accessing more self energy and also in the EMDR where we talk about the adaptive information >> there's more adaptive information now >> yes >> and that can then really lay out the foundation again to go back to desensitizing >> um and working with that trauma so it's it's it's quite a beautiful marriage in a way because you can you can flow in and out different phases bringing in the um the IFS um concepts at any of those phases.

[00:26:52]>> Absolutely.

[00:26:54]>> Yeah. And you know for my experience, Stephanie, I I that that's the one thing I look out for when we're doing phase two of EMDR. I'm really using a lot of IFS. I'm looking I'm hearing for parts.

[00:27:05]um he for any burdens that these parts are carrying and then working with them in phase two in um to support them to go to phase three and four. So there are things I'm looking out for and take into consideration.

[00:27:21]Um I'm just curious about for you though like um what factors guide your decision to either offer IFS or offer EMDL or or when the integration of the two models would be helpful? I mean, what are you looking out for?

[00:27:37]>> That's a great question. Um, if a client has any dissociative parts, I'm going to slow down and start with IFS just as a general rule. And that's also true just even in pure EMDR. We usually do a dissociative, some sort of dissociative screener before we would do EMDR. So, if a client has some dissociative parts, that's a signal for me to, okay, we're going to start with IFS. Um, I also I really just am very trans I try to be as transparent as possible with my clients around giving them choices um around explain the two models. I I say I typically start with IFS even even before even if a client is raring to go in EMDR. I always say, "Okay, well, let's pause. We're still going to check in with protectors before we go to begin doing EMDR reprocessing." Um, so dissociation definitely. I think also just the um if I've done pure if I've started with more pure IFS and I'm noticing like if the client doesn't have access to self if the client has a really challenging time accessing self and we've tried lots of things and um you know the client is you know we're you know compliant we're doing we're working together well we have a good working alliance and just due to the trauma history it's the client is often blended with parts um which is very normal of course um for many clients particularly early on in IFS um but I would say I um I'm going to begin to think a little bit differently about treatment choices if a client consistently has a hard time accessing self and um they may have a hard time for many reasons trusting therapy, trusting IFS just trusting, you know, whatever we're doing in therapy. And so I might do um offer some uh I might offer some EMDR um to actually bring down distress in that what I've found some clients benefit from doing EMDR. We still get consent of the protectors. We don't bypass them. We still get consent, but even if they're blended, you can do EMDR with a client in a blended state. And so most of the time people are blended when they're doing EMDR and that's absolutely normal. And so sometimes I bring in IFS if a client can't access self and then we may pause the EMDR after we clear a target. The client has more access to self and wants to actually do more internal repairative work with IFS. So we can toggle really back and forth. We have lots of choices depending on the client.

[00:30:29]>> Yeah. Um Dany, can I just clarify on that? When you say that in a when a part is blended and you and you use BMDR, are you two questions? Are you doing microprocessing like micro bilateral stimulation or you doing like the full 20 seconds of bilateral stimulation to unblend?

[00:30:50]>> Yeah, that's a great question. So, you have a choice. You can try to do I would start probably with um what I've created star to do slow tapping to send a message to a part. So we're basically doing if you're trained in EMDR this is the butterfly hug but we're using it relationally with a part to see if the part can take in and register that someone's here um and unblend that way.

[00:31:17]So we can do some slow bilateral stimulation. Um there are, you know, people in the EMDR IFS integration world that do will go ahead and do fast. Um I and that's that totally can be helpful.

[00:31:32]Um I at this point would um uh go right into 2.0 to be honest, EMDR 2.0 O because it is so um profound and taxing the working memory and see and and do fast basically fast than using uh taxation exercises.

[00:31:54]Yeah. So that might be an unexpected answer. Um but basically the bottom line is people have choices right and we're following where you know can the client access self that's like you know what do they need for support if it's you know I've had clients with complex trauma histories where they can have their protector step back to do the exile work and then they there's so many exiles that they like rush the system and flood the client um multiple times.

[00:32:29]you know, where then it's, you know, we spend the majority of session trying to return to accessing self. That type of client would be a great candidate for an integrative approach where it's like, okay, protectors are giving consent, the exile is present, they're wanting to blend with you. Let's go for it with the MDR.

[00:32:51]>> Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you.

[00:32:53]>> Yeah, >> you you are.

[00:32:55]>> Um, that makes me think of a few other questions. So, um, you know, I know Lani has some background with EMDR, but I don't have very much except for those two sessions and a few online things.

[00:33:08]Um, but I've never been trained in it.

[00:33:09]So, I heard a few terms that maybe myself and other listeners won't know what they are. So, could you explain like what are the phases of the model of EMDR? You mentioned phase two and you mentioned phase four. What are what are these phases that you mentioned?

[00:33:25]>> Yeah. So in um EMDR there's eight phases. Um the first phase is really about history taking assessment. The second phase is called resource development where we're doing coping skills. Um I can go ahead and provide the integrative approach with that. So essentially we can think of phase one and phase two with a complex trauma client. We're we're integrating both of those meaning we're bringing in coping skills in in the first session. Um we can also bring in the parts conceptualization in by doing parts mapping very early on um in phase one or phase 2. Um phase three and phase four go together in EMDR. So phase three is where we activate the traumatic memory.

[00:34:08]We call it assessment in EMDR. So we're asking very specific questions to activate a traumatic memory network. um you know so we're wanting a high distress on a scale of zero to 10. We're wanting something we can work with that's activated.

[00:34:25]>> Um so we're activating it in phase three and then phase four we begin um the taxation of working memory.

[00:34:33]Traditionally that's through eye movements or through any form of bilateral stimulation.

[00:34:39]Um so we stay we continue with that. In EMDR we're looking for the suds to go down. SUD stands for subjective units of distress. So say if a client starts on a scale of 0 to 10 at a 10, we're wanting that number in terms of how distressing it is to go down to a zero or as close as a zero as it can be realistically at which point that happens right um then we move to phase um phase five.

[00:35:12]Okay. If a client doesn't I guess I'll I'll go ahead and continue. So phase five is we install a positive cognition.

[00:35:20]So in EMDR when we're doing those assessment questions in phase three we ask what's the image or the worst part of it? What's the negative belief that goes with that? What would you prefer to believe about yourself instead? What are you feeling now? How distressing is it on a scale of 0 to 10? And where do you feel it in your body? And then that's when we begin the eye movements. Um, so if a client, you know, is as low as they can be, say a zero, a one, or maybe a two, um, if they say that that's as low as it can be, we then install a positive cognition in phase 5. We do that by having the client identify if that original positive cognition still fits or if there's words that fit better now that it's more resolved.

[00:36:07]Um, and then have them focus on the original uh image or original event as they're saying that kind of to themselves that positive cognition.

[00:36:18]Then phase um six is we have them do a body scan head to toe without any any tapping or bilateral stimulation at all just to see if there's any sematic memory. So EMDR does really honor the reality of you know memory being held in the body as well. So we're looking for body sensations there connected to that original target. Phase seven is closure, okay, of the session or of that target.

[00:36:47]Phase 8 is re-evaluation. So say if we didn't get say in one session, most EMDR unless it's a single incident trauma, most EMDR will take more than one session. That's very normal. Um uh I will with the caveat EMGR 2.0 can bring down pretty quickly in terms of that suds. Okay. Um so but in phase eight we re-evaluate. So we say okay let's go back to that image. The next session we go back to that original image. What do you notice now? And then we reassess it and continue processing until it gets to a zero. Um so I know that was a lot but those are the eight those are the eight phases. um yeah to answer that question. Yeah, thank you so much for answering it and I my system really liked your answer and it's nice to hear the yeah the detail of it and um I noticed like you know several things like um when you were saying activating the traumatic um network and trying to get like a strong activation, you know, that sounds so similar to like inviting the exile to fully blend so that the person can fully >> experience them and and be with them >> and Um and also like when you were talking about installing the positive cognition and also before that asking about the negative beliefs that again sounds like part of the um unburdening process in IFS of you know releasing negative beliefs and bringing in positive qualities and beliefs. So it it sounds like there's some real similarities that kind of connect you know through the two models but yeah thanks for >> you're absolutely getting the connection. Yes, you you're having this the aha moment that every EMDR therapist who's been trained in IFS has had too.

[00:38:34]It's like the similarities just stand out, right, with the negative cognition and the burdens and the positive cognition and that invitation step >> in IFS. So they they really are quite parallel in some ways.

[00:38:51]>> And I just have one more question. Hope it's all right, Laur.

[00:38:55]Um, and what's EMDR 2.0? know, what does that mean?

[00:38:59]>> Yeah. So, again, I want to give Susie Matson and um Ajon, I believe I'm saying his name correctly, from the Netherlands. They are the originators of the 2.0 protocol. Um so, the 2.0 protocol is a little different than standard protocol. So, it is it's really focusing on desensitization and taxing the working memory. So, it brings in different tasks not solely the eye movements or bilateral stimulation. So you might actually have a client get up and stand and do a body movement to give their brain and body new data um into the brain and into the system that's in contrast to the sematic memory. So I can give you a clinical example of say if a client um say if where they're getting stuck in their trauma reprocessing is a sematic feeling. Say if it's a feeling of fear in their chest and that's what's stuck, right? That's what's sticking. In EMDR 2.0, we would then bring in a sematic thing. Okay, let's um clap at a re a regular pattern and focus on that sensation. Let's have you move your body. Say if the client has their negative belief is I'm trapped.

[00:40:20]Okay, I want you to move your arms and make yourself as big as possible, right?

[00:40:25]While you're feeling that feeling of being trapped. So, we're giving contrasting information and data into the body as the same time as the client's trying to focus on the trauma memory. So in EMDR we we talk about this um you know kind of one foot here in the present, one foot in the trauma memory when we're doing reprocessing. This is we're activating the trauma memory and then we're trying to bring a distraction task to keep the client more present which will actually help facilitate memory reconsolidation faster is it's all about efficiency um with EMDR 2.0.

[00:41:04]So uh yeah that's the that's the short version. Again, it's I I'm a a clinician trained in it, but I'm not the founder of it. So, I want to give full respect to just like with Dick Schwarz, obviously, you know, Dick Schwarz and Dr. Shapiro with EMDR, we have all these wonderful uh founders that have um come up with these life-changing uh models.

[00:41:29]>> Yep. Thank you for that. Mhm.

[00:41:36]>> Um speaking of founders and um amazing giants in the field, um Deafany um in your bio I was an interesting fact came up for me that you did your post-doal fellowship in clinical psychology at the trauma center under the direct supervision of >> um the one and only Dr. Besso Vanderok.

[00:41:57]>> How was that experience? I mean Ollie and I are so fascinated and interested in that. Can you share some of your most memorable moments during that time?

[00:42:05]>> Sure. Well um for one my I was just reflecting on that recently. I we had to do an essay right just to even get an interview for that. We had to write a case conceptualization of a trauma client and they you know at that time the the trauma centers had sort of many evolutions but when I was there um you know it was specialized in complex PTSD people with dissociative disorders and complex PTSD so comp complicated cases and um so I wrote my essay and I did it all as an IFS case conceptualization because I'd already been exposed to IFS um by that time and then I was told I got the interview because I was applying an IFS case conceptualization and I was like okay great because I I love IFS also and this was while um I worked with Bessel while he was writing the body keeps the score. Um so he was writing the book at the time um that I worked directly under him. He was my direct supervisor and um definitely you know have fond memories of working with him.

[00:43:12]Um for sure. So it was a wonderful mentor and learned a lot. Learned a lot from him. Yeah.

[00:43:20]>> Yeah.

[00:43:20]>> I think from him another thing that's coming up you know he really was the first I mean him and then I also I mean I feel so grateful to just have taken lots and lots of trainings. Um I think also Jannina Fischer I could say the same thing just bringing in um the body and being aware of the nervous system that when we're doing any sort of therapy particularly with trauma we are working and treating a nervous system and that nervous system is part of the process and so um Vessel really helped me see clients through that lens as well in terms of okay you know uh what state is the client in right now? Are they in hyperarousal? Are they in hypoarousal?

[00:44:06]So, I mean, I think that that's also a very memorable moment when he helped me kind of view clients more bringing in the body and the nervous system.

[00:44:18]>> Yeah. Fun memories. Bessel.

[00:44:24]>> Yeah.

[00:44:26]>> Yeah. I can really hear um you know the depth of um your knowledge and your experience as you're describing um yeah these different clinical examples and things.

[00:44:36]So it really comes through Daphne um when when you were just describing the EMDR 2.0 know, like a concerned part came up um of like, okay, so you're you're getting the exile to sort of fully be present and to be feeling all of their feelings and to be really there and then you're like inviting the person to do a totally kind of different thing to kind of uh interrupt, you know, the traumatic memory and and my like IFS therapist part's like, isn't that inviting in like a self-like part to kind of do something else.

[00:45:13]>> And couldn't and couldn't that land for the exile? Like you're like ignoring them or not like giving validation to their like the pain and the story of of their experience. And so I'm just kind of wondering like I mean it sounds like it works as in like it reduces >> it it makes them less sensitive to that traumatic memory, but what's the actually happening to the exile? Like what's their experience in that? Do you find afterwards that they're like, "Oh, that was really help." Like, does the exile respond like that was helpful and they feel relieved or do they respond?

[00:45:47]Yeah, I'm just wondering what happens there.

[00:45:49]>> I love Yeah, I love that question. I so appreciate your your concerned part. So, I welcome welcome all your parts and questions. This is great. Um, I think it all it it does depend on how you set it up in terms of the psycho education about what we're doing and why. um with with my clients, the clients in particular, with all my any client, I try to make sure, do you have any questions? You can ask questions at any time about what we're doing and why.

[00:46:17]Like you, this is your therapy. You know, you deserve to know that. And if you ever have concerns or doubts or questions, like please ask um at all times. Even when we're doing pure IFS, we're doing, you know, integrative model with EMDR. So with EMDR 2.0, know um how I would set it up in terms of say if I'm uh activating a traumatic memory by starting with IFS and then getting to an exile is inviting the exile to be part of the process and explaining it more like a game like we are going to play a game um you're still here you're still connected to this part um and we are going to play a distraction game and that's going to help your brain actually help release the intensity of what you're carrying.

[00:47:10]Would you like to play?

[00:47:12]>> Um, so it's it really depends on like the language and it's I can definitely see like with your concern, we're not abandoning that part. We're not forgetting it. We're actually helping it. um and we're bringing down distress um first and that helps the client access more self to do more of the internal repair work. I can give you a a case example of doing 2.0 0 where this happened where you know developmental trauma, intensive developmental trauma and a client was um you know able to uh you know have a different experience in relationship to that repetitive traumatic memory that shows up as a uh chronic anxiety and dread like something bad is about to happen at all times.

[00:48:05]Right? So for a complex trauma client, that's more their lived experience potentially in their system and that may be more than one part that's carrying that. Um but with EMDR 2.0, we can actually um offer them a different experience in relationship to what happened. And so if we bring in the integrative lens where anytime we're doing reprocessing, whether it two whether it's 2.0 O protocol or traditional EMDR protocol. We're helping the client access more self. So, you know, if the client's blended, that's okay. We can still do 2.0. If the client um you know, if we approach that exile, we're going to say, "We're going to play a game. You're right here with me. We're doing this together. I'm going to check in on you, you know, in 90 seconds or whatever our time is that we're doing the cognitive task or the bilateral stimulation and I'm going to see what that was like for you. Right? So, we can weave in the relational aspect so we're not abandoning, you know, an exile um when we're doing EMDR 2.0 I know or in honest just with even traditional protocol with EMDR um is what happens to that exile you know am I going to lose this part am I going to is what's going to happen to it is it going to go away you know so there's such um important questions to to talk about with clients >> and and just on that definely like do you find that you need for the integration phase after you do your the desensitization um do you find that it's helpful to bring in the IFS the parts work to for the to help to integrate the um to allow the exile to really be able to you know what what we term in IFS is like be able to take in and be able to um see themsel that they they're part of the system now they're not no longer exiled Yes.

[00:50:11]Yeah. Some clients need that integration work or they're ready more for the repair like you mentioned Oliver around your EMDR experience and then revisiting that part years later. Um, so sometimes it's very natural for clients to benefit from after they're having therapeutic gains in EMT EMDR and say, you know, say if they've cleared a target or um, uh, some clients even need, you know, an EMDR session and then a pause just to check in the next session doing IFS, just honoring where their system is and then return to pre-processing. Um, so we have a lot of choices. Um but yes to answer your question Lorrainei we can bring in the IFS for integration I have found I mean it is um it is an amazing opportunity to sit with a client that is having therapeutic gains and therapy um and can begin to experience that at that felt sense level and in both EMDR IFS and integr integrative bro approach of both models clients can experience that felt sense experience of change um from therapy and that is just such a such a rich moment um as a clinician to celebrate like wow look at what's changed let's really pause here and see what does this part need from you now are there any part other parts that need to take this in what's it like to take this in for our complex trauma clients and I mentioned this in my book there's often a part even after therapeutic progress that's hanging out being like okay and when is the next shoe going to drop right it's a maybe another protector that we need to bring in it's like okay now you get your turn right let's work with that future focus of okay now you've done some healing around this particular trauma what does that mean now and what does that mean to this part going forward in time um so there's lots of opportunities to bring in IFS with that integration work.

[00:52:30]>> Wow.

[00:52:30]>> How we going for time, Ollie?

[00:52:33]>> Yeah. Yeah, we're we're coming towards the end. We've got maybe five more minutes. Yeah. Um, so what's a gentle first step people could make who maybe, you know, know about both approaches but haven't integrated them yet? Yeah. Mhm.

[00:52:51]>> It's a gentle first step that you could make.

[00:52:55]>> Sure. Um well, I'm definitely going to going to plug my book. So, that would be an easy that would be an easy first step. Um is to take a look at my book.

[00:53:04]Um there's also listening to this podcast, even listening and understanding that um I think having this holistic view of the treatment plan not being only one model, but being an integrative approach. um is is really a first step in terms of let's get curious around what parts are showing up for related to the presenting issue but bringing in that EMDR perspective of this is not only a system of parts that system is on a whole memory network um that spans their entire life and may span even we can bring in intergenerational trauma we can bring in ancestral trauma So we want to just hold that very holistic approach of okay we are working with um you know there likely going to be more parts revealed um as we get to know a client as we get to know their system um I think that would be a first step and just in terms of case conceptualization.

[00:54:11]>> Yeah. Right.

[00:54:15]Well, as as a way to um kind of like um wrap up our interview, Deafany, we just wanted to get to know you a little bit better.

[00:54:24]>> Sure.

[00:54:24]>> So, with all with all of our um guests, we have asked them what we term as the IFS Fast and Furious questions. So basically, >> so basically it will be I'll be asking you lots of questions about your system and we we just want to invite you just to say the immediate thing that comes forward. Yeah. Not not too much thinking about it. So um you know um intellectual parts may need to kind of like step aside for a moment.

[00:54:52]>> Okay. I have lots of those. So yeah, I'll tell them to take a little break.

[00:54:58]>> And so you up for the challenge?

[00:55:00]>> Sure. I would love to.

[00:55:02]>> Okay. Okay. Okay. So, Deafany, what is your most endearing managerial activity?

[00:55:10]>> Oh, goodness. My uh I would say uh cleaning. Yeah, I love uh cleaning my I have hardwood floors in my house where I live and so I love steam cleaning my floors. I have a my manager part, one of my manager parts just loves that. So, nice and clean.

[00:55:30]What's your most favorite firefighter activity?

[00:55:33]>> Oh my gosh. Uh, probably eating chocolate.

[00:55:39]>> Is there a gift? Is there an exile gift that you have reclaimed?

[00:55:44]>> Definitely. Um, yeah. Gosh, there's many. Uh, I would say I I have dyslexia and I can say wholeheartedly that exile that had a burden around h being dyslexic and having a lot of um developmental trauma as a child because of it. That exile pushed me to get my doctorate to prove to myself that I could do it right. I don't that part is healed and integrated and I'm now reclaim the gifts of of having dyslexia. And I I love those gifts. I'm very grateful for the gifts of of of having a dyslexic brain.

[00:56:24]>> And yes, and you're spreading you're giving us that gifts as well. So, thank you. Okay. A book that you are currently reading or listening to.

[00:56:34]>> Oh my gosh. Um I I tend to binge listen and then I go through these dry spells where I I'm not listening. I would say Mel Robbins um let them theory. Yeah.

[00:56:45]>> Okay.

[00:56:46]Okay. And which historical figure would you like to invite to dinner?

[00:56:53]>> Uh, which what what kind of figure?

[00:56:56]>> Historical.

[00:56:57]>> Oh, historical. Oh my gosh. Um, I would say Dr. Martin Luther King.

[00:57:05]>> Yeah.

[00:57:06]>> Yeah. And finally, Stephanie, what legacy gift do you wish to leave behind?

[00:57:14]Oh gosh. The ability to trust your intuition and trust yourself. Even if reality may be telling you different like this physical seen world may be telling you different things to trust the unseen world and trust your intuition.

[00:57:33]>> Thank you. Thank you for giving us a bit of a glimpse into your internal will.

[00:57:38]>> Yeah. Thank you. That's super fun.

[00:57:41]I I'm curious. I want to ask the same questions to both of y'all.

[00:57:47]>> Yeah, >> we can answer one each. What would you like to ask?

[00:57:51]>> Yeah, I want I would love Okay, I'm gonna ask Yeah. Could I hear favorite firefighter and then I also want to hear the legacy the legacy piece that you're leaving. I love that.

[00:58:04]>> Um, my favorite firefighter gaming. Oh, sorry, Lani.

[00:58:08]>> Gaming. Yeah, gaming for me.

[00:58:12]But mine's for podcast listening. I love listening to podcast.

[00:58:19]Very calming.

[00:58:23]>> That's great.

[00:58:24]>> What's your legacy?

[00:58:29]The legacy, the legacy they want to leave behind is a sense of valuing um really embracing your pain. that it's okay to embrace your pain >> and that broken places and and pieces in you can be reclaimed and can be put together again.

[00:59:02]>> That's beautiful. Thank you.

[00:59:07]I think the one for some reason the one that's coming through to me at the moment is uh like leaving a different archetype for what um what a man can be in families and in the world. Um yeah.

[00:59:26]Yeah. to give young boys uh another option that might be more connected and loving and attuned and uh doesn't have to be this hyper masculine um yeah isolated kind of figure. So something around that.

[00:59:46]>> Yeah.

[00:59:49]>> And and finally, you know, what what's the best place for people to contact you? Where can they purchase your new book? Um, yeah. Any links, things you want people to know about? Yeah. To get involved?

[00:59:59]>> Yeah, sure. I would just Thank you for asking. I would just say my website, which is my name, um, Daphne, D A P H N Fatter. It's a strange last name. It's F as in Frankfrank A T um, phd.com. Um, and then any any bookstore can order my book. It is on Amazon um, as well. Um, and uh, yes, and I'm I'm super excited just to share this with with everyone.

[01:00:26]So, thank you so much for having me.

[01:00:29]Yeah.

[01:00:30]>> Yeah. Thanks so much for being here.

[01:00:32]Really look forward to reading your book. Yeah.

[01:00:35]>> Yes. I'm very excited for it, Stephanie.

[01:00:37]So, thank you. Thank you so much for your time and sharing of all that you have gathered along the way.

[01:00:44]>> Thank you.