Dr. Janina Fisher: TIST Model, Polyvagal Theory & Trauma Parts Work

[00:00:00]This method is informed by by poly vego theory because I'm always thinking about how do I facilitate the social engagement system when my clients can socially engage with the parts it it's just you know when they have trouble with words I just ask them to look kindly at the part.

[00:00:25]>> Today's guest is Dr. Dr. Jannina Fischer, a clinical psychologist and worldrenowned expert in trauma treatment. She has been at the forefront of integrating neuroscience, attachment, and sematic psychology into how we understand and heal trauma for over four decades. Dr. Fiser has worked directly with survivors of complex trauma. She is best known for her work with the sensory motor psychotherapy institute and her groundbreaking book healing the fragmented cells of trauma survivors which has become essential reading for trauma therapists around the world. Her approach is practical, compassionate, and deeply rooted in how trauma lives in the body. Whether you're a therapist, coach, or simply someone looking to better understand the impact of trauma, this conversation is going to offer grounded insights and real clarity.

[00:01:18]Please be advised, this episode contains dialogue about self harm, abuse, and other sensitive topics. Please take care while listening and feel free to skip this episode if needed. Welcome to Wired for Connection, a Poly Veagel Institute podcast. I am your host and my name is Travis Goodman. Welcome, >> Janina. I am so excited for you to be part of this dialogue on Wired for Connection here. Um, and just jumping right in, how did you land in just trauma work? How did you get started with that?

[00:01:49]>> Oh, well, that goes back perhaps before you were born >> in 1989.

[00:01:56]I >> Oh, I was born. I was born. I'll say that for the record. Yeah. 84. 1984. So, five years. I was five.

[00:02:02]>> Okay.

[00:02:04]You were there. You just didn't hear it.

[00:02:06]I true >> in 1989 um the first first year of my post do no excuse me my pre-doal psychology internship >> I heard Judith Herman speak >> and she said doesn't it make more sense that people suffer because real things happen to them that they suffer because of infantile fantasies and I thought Yeah, that that makes perfect sense and why is nobody talking about that?

[00:02:43]>> And that was my motivation. I just in that moment >> I decided that I wanted to be a trauma therapist >> at a time when there was very little that was known about trauma. There was very little in the way of a treatment approach.

[00:03:05]It was all, you know, it was all psychonamic talking therapy.

[00:03:11]>> Dr. Juth Herman phrased that. I love that um framework, right? That >> real things. It sounds like that collect like, oh yeah, that makes sense. It's it's real things happen and the real things could be defined, I'm sure, in a a myriad of ways of how the real things are defined. And I'm wondering for you in the work you're doing now and um this may have shifted through your years of experience and and the expertise and time spent with clients and just speaking with experts around the world, but I'm wondering how do you define trauma now in your practice? How does that look for you? Great, great question because you know in 1989 nobody was using the word trauma >> and and except for um war veterans and sexual assault survivors.

[00:04:04]>> And so it took years before it was accepted that child sexual abuse was was traumatic. And then it took years after that for physical abuse to be considered d traumatic. Then the same with domestic violence. It just, you know, it's it's been years. I feel very blessed because >> not only did I have a chance to study under Judith Herman as a postdoal fellow but then I went from her program um what which was one of the first trauma clinics in the country. I went from there to Bessel Vanderok's clinic >> to be a supervisor >> and I actually had a choice of being a supervisor for Harvard Medical School or a supervisor for Bessel's trauma center and I chose the trauma center just at the time that his body keeps the score research was happening. So that you know that led us to the body.

[00:05:18]>> Wow. Yeah. That's such an interesting you know fork in the road to go to Harvard and teach her Bessel's work. Out of curiosity, what was the the the shift or the the choice of I'm choosing Bessel's work versus Harvard?

[00:05:33]What was there something inside that said a gut feeling or something that led you or >> I'm a trauma therapist. My mission is to improve the quality of trauma treatment.

[00:05:43]Harvard Medical School couldn't care less about trauma.

[00:05:47]>> It was, you know, they wanted me to be a generic supervisor of psychologists.

[00:05:52]>> Um, and I had a chance to be at a trauma clinic. So, that was an very easy choice.

[00:06:00]>> Yeah.

[00:06:01]>> And at that clinic, a lot of the staff were doing EMDR.

[00:06:06]M.

[00:06:06]>> So that was 1995.

[00:06:10]>> So EMDR was really beginning to be popular. Bessel kept saying the body keeps the score. So we were all getting trained in various sematic therapies. I trained in sensory motor psychotherapy >> and um and then I taught myself IFS in 19 in 1996 uh because I had a number of uh of did clients. So, I had to find a way to talk about parts.

[00:06:44]>> And uh so I read Dick Schwarz's book, The Mosaic Mind, and I taught myself IFS, long before there was any training available.

[00:06:57]>> Yeah. So, it sounds like that's what shifted you from maybe more the traditional. A couple things I'm hearing that shifted from more psychonamic talk therapy framework to more somatic parts work was one that this really this wave of trauma definitions of things shifting and just the culture at large of now we're seeing things differently um and also Bessel's work and you engaging in something that you felt really aligned with with your heart it sounds like and your gut of like this is my mission and identify with your purpose and and seeing clients and saying, "Oh, I got to do something different and continuous." So, this was the shift of >> real lived experiences is what I'm hearing.

[00:07:39]>> And as you know, you know, we learn from our clients, >> right? No matter how many methods we've studied, >> h they never work exactly right or exactly as we were taught them.

[00:07:56]I I would agree 100% that I'm always not always but uh regularly pivoting and having to adapt and shift and I too have been deep diving into IFS as of late over the past year and it really clients do are the greatest teacher of okay this isn't working in the way I think okay what do I need to what do I need to do differently here and >> I could fully relate with that as a as a clinician um and even even as a client myself when I was a client and doing going through my own therapy of seeing how my therapist had to pivot based on me, right?

[00:08:29]>> Um and what she had to use. So, >> you know, as I think about your work too of this, how you've developed or part of this this trauma-informed stabilization treatment, can you define what that is for us? I know that's been part of your work this >> and um so trauma-informed stabilization treatment is a traumainformed parts model >> that integrates um clinical interventions from IFFS with sematic interventions from sensory motor psychotherapy >> with um hypnotic egoate interventions a poly veagal state of mind. So the tenants of polyvagal theory and unlike IFS, well I I developed trauma-informed stabilization treatment at a state hospital in Connecticut >> where the state of Connecticut decided to budget money for a trauma treatment approach that would be effective with their most suicidal high-risk clients.

[00:09:47]>> That was in 2012.

[00:09:49]I mean, it was amazing. They called me up and said, "Would you develop a treatment model for us?"

[00:09:55]>> Wow.

[00:09:56]>> Whoever gets that chance.

[00:09:58]>> Yeah.

[00:09:59]>> Because they were desperate. They had a group of of patients >> who could not be discharged who had to be institutionalized >> because they were at such high risk.

[00:10:14]>> Wow.

[00:10:15]>> And the our experimental group were consisted of 12 12 patients who had been institutionalized from two to 10 years.

[00:10:28]>> Wow.

[00:10:29]>> And they were all young adults. So the the person who had been there for 10 years had been in the hospital since she was 15.

[00:10:38]>> Wow. They called you up and said, "We need help." And you took that opportunity.

[00:10:43]>> Exactly. Yeah.

[00:10:44]>> Well, and they also these patients also attacked staff.

[00:10:48]>> So they they were aggressive toward their own bodies and aggressive toward the bodies of staff.

[00:10:55]>> Wow.

[00:10:56]And so I just drew on what I knew.

[00:11:01]>> Um it made it was really clear to me that these patients had very very suicidal parts >> and that they weren't being helped with DBT because they had parts.

[00:11:17]>> Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I've Yeah, I've done DBT groups for years actually.

[00:11:21]Um, and >> I don't do strict DBT. I I pull in I pull in polyagal theory lens. I pull in trauma inform lens. I pull in um parts work and kind of add it into the the protocols. I mean, yeah, because I realized too somewhere clients and patients, they need something more than just the skill, but which is important.

[00:11:44]Yes. But there's often a piece that was missing. And so I'm like, I I need to give them a little bit more here, >> right?

[00:11:50]>> And that's here what you did.

[00:11:51]Also the biggest problem I mean I actually I like DBT um but the biggest problem with DBT is that it requires the ability to access your prefrontal cortex >> right >> and the early research >> again that's why it was so valuable to be a supervisor at Bessel Vanderok's clinic >> because we always got the research reports before they were written up >> and one of the first findings >> of the brain scan research on trauma was that when the subjects got traumatically activated the prefrontal cortex shut down.

[00:12:37]>> Yeah.

[00:12:37]>> So >> yeah. So, so whether you called it a part or a dorsal veagal response, >> they couldn't they couldn't retrieve the information, >> they might have they I mean I had clients who love DBT, >> but in a crisis they couldn't access the skills.

[00:13:00]>> And that makes total sense from a, you know, from a traumfor lens. You're right. Because they're >> Yeah, that PFC is offline. They're going to respond from their midbrain amydala to survive.

[00:13:10]>> And you can't learn really. You can't really learn. You're right. In that space, we need that PFC to adapt to think critically and learn and apply and make sense, right? Because if you're if you're activated, no matter what's it could be the best tool in the world, it could be the >> It could be the the perfect tool.

[00:13:28]However, if you can't receive that, the tool's useless. It's a useless tool. Um >> Exactly.

[00:13:33]And and for those that aren't clinicians, can you just, you know, those are listening that aren't like therapists or coaches because we got an array of people listening, can you in like plain language just describe what trauma-informed stabilization treatment is just in the most basic form?

[00:13:48]>> Yes. Yes. So it it in trauma-informed stabilization treatment, we help we help clients to notice >> their distressing feelings and unsafe impulses as parts. M >> so so that they the client learns >> that instead of saying I want to kill myself I want to kill myself I want to kill myself which tends to increase the intensity >> of the impulses they learn to say there's a part of me that wants to die >> or there's a part of me that's hurt and and that hurt is triggering the part that wants to die or wants to kill me as the case may be. This and of course that idea came from IFS.

[00:14:47]>> Yeah.

[00:14:47]>> Right.

[00:14:49]>> But the the theoretical model that this that the parts work was based on was not IFS. It was the structural dissociation model which is the work of Ano Vanderhart, Ellert Nanhouse and Kathy Steel. It's a trauma treatment model known throughout Europe and very well accepted.

[00:15:15]So, so the parts are are understood as as not as holding memories, but as preparing to defend against the next and the next and the next attack >> or abuse.

[00:15:36]>> Yeah. Because we forget, >> you know, the field has been so focused on events that we forget that events occur in a context.

[00:15:47]The child who grows up in an abusive family has, you know, experiences events, terrible events, but they're just as unsafe on the days that nothing happens as on the days that something happens.

[00:16:04]>> Right? They still they still are afraid.

[00:16:08]They still are ashamed. They still feel hopeless um in anticipation of >> whatever will come next because one thing they can be sure of something is going to come next. They just don't know when >> or how often.

[00:16:28]>> Right? And so so the assumption in the structural dissociation model is that the parts are driven by the defensive responses we all have. Fight, flight, um fear, >> submission, also known as dorsal veagal >> and um >> and cry for help.

[00:16:55]>> Yeah.

[00:16:56]And and so so we helped these clients to understand to recognize their suicidal thoughts and impulses >> as a suicidal part as the fight part.

[00:17:14]>> Um their shame and depression as the submit part.

[00:17:20]their their yearning for somebody to care and do something and um and kind of be there as their cry for help part. And to you know I think to the surprise of the staff, the patients in our in our testing test group got better. M >> some of them got dramatically better >> and were able to leave the hospital.

[00:17:50]Some got uh in got moderately better and were able to move into halfway houses >> and one the 10-year person failed out of the study because she attacked her therapist, >> assaulted her therapist. So that was that was a deal breakaker.

[00:18:16]>> Yeah.

[00:18:16]>> But out of the 12, 11 improved who had not improved over years.

[00:18:24]>> Wow.

[00:18:24]>> And so the state of Connecticut was happy >> and and they wanted a name for this treatment.

[00:18:33]>> And we couldn't call it parts. We couldn't call it dissociation, which is even a worse word than parts.

[00:18:42]>> So I said, let's call it traumainformed stabilization treatment. And because the bureaucrats will like that title, >> the legislator who allocates money for mental health will like that.

[00:19:00]>> Yeah.

[00:19:01]>> Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense. I mean, and thank you sharing that story is I love what you said is that events happen in a context. They're not in a vacuum, right? That we got to remember the context, >> right?

[00:19:14]>> And from a trauma-informed lens, you could see why then even if the events aren't taking place, the painful hurt, hurt hurting, you know, activating threatening events, why we can still be on edge, hypervigilant, right? because >> the body's job and this is that I think I see the integration of polybagel theory here is that the body is still trying and wired to survive. So it has to in a way kind of has to stay in that space still because it's used to anticipating what's coming next, how do I navigate, survive, etc. Whatever the means might be to survive and any myriad of ways, fight, flight, shutdown, f, you know, all those >> different ways the body found a way to to navigate it and why we still can and and how we approach that. And so with this, you know, trauma informed stabilization treatment um program like what is the first >> in your mind the first or most important step in helping these people navigate towards healing?

[00:20:13]>> Well, but you know what what we did which again we were you know we were kind of flying by the seat of our pants because it was a treatment that had never existed before. M >> so so where where we started was to um meet with each person in the study and say you know you have been a mental patient for whatever number of years um and we think that actually you should be treated as a trauma patient >> um that that that part of what you're dealing with hasn't been addressed >> and they were so grateful. It's like >> I remember our first client, she she was like, "I'm not a mental patient anymore.

[00:21:13]I'm a trauma patient."

[00:21:15]>> Yeah. and she felt like she had dignity and work >> instead of being locked up and at the bottom of the heap.

[00:21:26]>> Yeah.

[00:21:26]>> So, so that was very highly motivating for this group.

[00:21:32]>> And then we actually used my psychoeducational flip chart. We we brought it around >> and showed the structural dissociation theory >> to each of these patients and we asked them do these parts that we've just described, >> do they seem familiar to you?

[00:21:57]>> And about twothirds of them said, oh yes, very very familiar. And then we could have a whole conversation like which ones get triggered the most, which ones are the biggest challenges for you.

[00:22:14]And so we were then having a conversation not about their problem behaviors.

[00:22:21]>> We were having a conversation about their parts. And then we asked them would they be willing to assume that any and this this is an intervention I borrowed from IFS.

[00:22:36]>> Yeah.

[00:22:37]>> Would they be willing to assume that any distressing thought, feeling or physical reaction was a part?

[00:22:46]>> Right now in IFS you wouldn't say it that way. in IFS you would say you know is this part curious compassionate calm etc >> but >> if you but that's an unwieldy question to be asking people frequently so it seemed easier >> to have them notice >> distressing feelings and um and impulses >> and some of them really got it right away. And I remember our our first moment of success, a woman who had been who had made so many suicide attempts, I can't even remember what the total was.

[00:23:36]>> Um, she had had selfharm to the point that she was scarred all over her body.

[00:23:44]She had assaulted several members of the staff.

[00:23:49]And but she really got she really got the parts as she heard about them in the bottle.

[00:23:59]>> And so very quickly >> she started reporting.

[00:24:04]>> I wanted to hurt myself so badly, but I just kept saying that's the fight part.

[00:24:12]That's the fight part. I don't have to do what it wants. M >> and she just repeated it to herself every time she felt the impulse >> and and got through the whole day without harming herself >> for probably the first time.

[00:24:30]>> Yeah. Wow.

[00:24:33]>> So that that was very very encouraging.

[00:24:37]and her I I actually know because once in a probably once a year uh she sends me a message on Facebook.

[00:24:48]She she's been living on her own in the community with her cat who is her significant other. Very much safer than a human. You know, humans are tricky to be to be in relationship to. Mhm.

[00:25:05]>> Um and and she is holding her own.

[00:25:09]>> Every once in a while, her her Facebook message usually is something like, "I'm having trouble with an eating disorder." I'm having trouble with more impulses to self harm.

[00:25:26]And I just message her back and I say, >> "Be curious about the part that wants to restrict your eating. Be curious about this part that, you know, ask the selfharming part what it's worried about."

[00:25:42]>> Yeah.

[00:25:43]>> Right.

[00:25:43]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:44]>> And >> Yeah.

[00:25:45]>> That little bit >> of of reminder kind of sets her straight again.

[00:25:53]>> Yeah. Well, going and just to what I heard was most profound stood out to me as you were talking so many things, but the first that stood out was this humanity that we called out humanity and the other that it moved from pathology to you know this is trauma and I'm a human and so they something spoke to them like I'm not this this diagnosis but I'm dealing with a significant amount of trauma and my behaviors make sense given you know kind of all the modalities you're I'm seeing integrate together polyagal theory IFS other the trauma informed practices from Europe you're like oh this makes sense and now you're giving language which is shifting them to get out of that kind of how I see it and correct me if I'm wrong we kind of shame disconnected less than human self um to a human being who suffered tremendously and now has these behaviors that are protective parts trying to help them navigate and anticipate preventing further pain which is I think the beauty of IFS is that language it gives that these are trying to prevent and protect, >> right?

[00:26:57]>> Which is non-pathizing. And then the nervous system polyagal theory is also non-pathizing because it's saying, hey, this is making sense that your body is wired to survive and it's doing its best to navigate with the tools that it has given your your context or story that you found yourself in. Yes, there's the events, but you can't separate events from story and context. If you do that, I always tell clients I work with, it's like if I only take an event to your the the symptoms quote unquote or behaviors, it's like flipping opening a book, flipping somewhere 3/4 of the way through and starting there and reading a paragraph about a character in the story without knowing where they came from, but just judging them based on this one paragraph, >> right, >> or two paragraphs.

[00:27:42]While it may give me some information about this character in this moment, there's no story. There's no narrative.

[00:27:49]>> And when we know the story, the narrative, we can then understand why this might make sense. And it makes it human versus I'm less than human or subhuman.

[00:28:00]>> But, you know, here's what's interesting. In in trauma-informed stabilization, we don't focus on events >> at all. I mean, hardly at all.

[00:28:10]um be because it's all it's really the goal of trauma informed care is a is a an attachment relationship >> between essentially the preffrontal cortex self and the parts so that the parts you know I just did a session today with with a client who just had to put her dog to sleep and she has many parts who are very sad >> because they were very attached to this dog.

[00:28:48]>> She was sad but interestingly parts parts feel grief differently >> from from adults. And so the parts were feeling sad and scared >> because crying was dangerous in their world.

[00:29:10]>> And so in in TIS, which is what we call trauma-informed stabilization treatment for short, in TIS, um we help clients relate to what the part is feeling rather than what the part experienced.

[00:29:28]So, so first there is the noticing that the part is sad and scared and then I I ask clients I actually use this this hand technique where I say notice the part that is feeling so sad and so scared >> and then notice you noticing that part.

[00:29:53]So there's they're actually in relationship.

[00:29:56]>> Yeah. rather than blended.

[00:29:59]>> Yeah.

[00:30:00]>> And and then and then once once the client can feel themselves noticing the part instead of being the part, then I ask them to stay because these parts have never had anybody stay. I mean, they've never had anybody to recognize what they're feeling, right? So, first they have this experience of they're feeling something and it's being recognized >> and then I ask clients to stay with that part >> and and then when they can stay with the part, I ask them if they can care about how the part feels.

[00:30:52]And that's really a a healing moment because these parts have never had anybody care about how they felt.

[00:31:01]>> Yeah.

[00:31:02]>> Right. So we never ask. My client knows roughly. She pretty much knows her story. So she could say, "I know why they're scared to be sad. I get it."

[00:31:17]>> Yeah.

[00:31:17]>> And then I say, "Yes." So let the parts know that you totally understand why they're scared to be sad.

[00:31:27]>> Yeah. And >> yeah, >> so it's all it's all about really what I think of as creating a healing relationship >> to these parts and providing them with what Bruce Ecker calls a reconsolidation approach, >> right? Where they have new experiences >> in place of the old.

[00:31:56]>> Yeah. or actually side by side with the old.

[00:31:59]>> Yeah. And as I do that, this I like how you give that visual with the hands like you know this part that's activated this protective part or the part that wants to self harm or drink whatever the thing is to protect >> and you can you notice the you observing this you know you're sitting and witnessing this right and >> right >> sitting there and that I think my guess is because I've done this with clients too sometimes that could take quite a bit of time to get to that place just to notice.

[00:32:22]>> Absolutely. You nailed it. Right. Right.

[00:32:26]It can take a very long time.

[00:32:29]>> Yeah.

[00:32:29]>> Um and you know there's it's it's this method is informed by by poly veagal theory because I'm always thinking about how do I facilitate social engagement system the social engagement system.

[00:32:49]>> Yeah. when when my clients can socially engage with the parts >> it it's just you know and when they have trouble when they have trouble with words I just ask them to look kindly at the part >> right >> like the part just needs someone to notice them with kindness Yeah.

[00:33:20]>> Right.

[00:33:21]>> Yeah.

[00:33:21]>> Right. Can you can you smile at that part?

[00:33:25]>> Yeah.

[00:33:26]>> Or what of what happens is they start to spontaneously smile. I mean, you can just see the the warm feelings that come up for the parts >> once once they're not once they're not blended and activated.

[00:33:48]Yeah. And yeah, and I think to your point um I do uh sim something similar that blend unblending could take time and I think that social engagement system is so key. It's it's are in a way I think of >> I think Dr. Tina Bryson said this or or I'm misquing so I'm sorry if I misquote this but you know it's kind of like with children our children are borrowing our prefrontal cortex.

[00:34:10]>> Um her and Dr. Dan Seagull's work right that they're borrowing that in a way I think clients that are traum you know with highly traumatic events and stuck in trauma loops in a way are borrowing our social engagement ground adventural to poly bagel like our grounded presence to to witness them without judgment and a way borrowing that from us initially early on is that how you would see that too >> absolutely and I've said to my client from this morning many times I've said I've said, "Just channel me."

[00:34:44]>> Yeah.

[00:34:46]>> I like that.

[00:34:47]>> Right. That that cuz that's that is so important and that's part of >> what I teach the therapist who train in this model, >> right? Is like >> Yeah.

[00:35:02]>> It's not about being a good technician, right?

[00:35:08]>> Yeah.

[00:35:08]>> Right.

[00:35:10]It's about, you know, how do you what employ the approach >> in a way that does model >> what what the client can do to heal the parts.

[00:35:24]>> Yeah. Yeah. I think again to your point, what you said earlier was they may not have been able to be witnessed or be with when they've been activated in a protective part or a survival state where they've been left >> by themselves or by the people around them in a way they've been or hurt by that. And so makes sense why now they struggle with that when that's the first step it sounds like to learn to be with and to witness and to pay attention with curiosity.

[00:35:55]Um, and can I just sit here and we are there too or whoever's working with them is part of embodying that presence which is that co-regulation vententral borrowing and it sounds like as that first step begins to take place then they have the capacity or they they build capacity with us alongside them >> to then be able to have that >> self energy or whatever you know so many different wise mind whatever word you want to call >> right >> wise mind self energy venture energy whatever word to sit with and witness their own parts and notice and name um to quote le Dr. less Arya right notice and name um you know and nurture what's happening here um and so that's that first step for you too is not so much talking about the events because like you said a lot of clients know the story right they know the logical I know the events I know this and um it's almost like you know I've heard it said many times awareness doesn't change anything right awareness itself doesn't change >> right >> um >> right exactly >> and the nice thing about about TIS is that it works with clients who have a lot of clear-cut event memories and it works with clients who have no memory which is re really fortunate >> and >> you know the the back to the whole issue of context >> um right what we don't get when we when we're working with event memory >> is the focus on the effects. M >> so so things like not being seen, not being recognized, not being um you know heard, those are all part of the trauma context, >> not necessarily part of the event, but they're central to what our clients are left with, how it affects them.

[00:38:02]>> Yeah. Well, and that's where I see I think the and I'd love to hear your confirmation. I think you said this in not so many words, but the primacy or the importance of the social engagement system is that um they are seen, they are listened to, they are and in turn will lead to being soothed and feeling safe and secure. Right? that I've because that's been I think the bigger wound in a way is that not so much the trauma itself and I think even Dr. Gabri mate said right it's not so much the event itself but it's the story we tell oursel or you know um what's the narrative I bring up in my head of not so much the event but >> what happens in the following like who's there or not there or what do I >> how do I make sense of this in my own world >> right exactly right um was it my fault was it their fault >> was it because >> I was too >> right >> stupid I was to this, I was to that.

[00:39:06]>> Yeah.

[00:39:07]>> Yeah. Yeah. Which again, which parts carry, >> you know, >> big time. And they could carry it's they could be very powerful, too. Those parts are very strong. Someone can be very strong >> and understandably so.

[00:39:20]>> Absolutely. Yes.

[00:39:23]Absolutely. And I think it really helps that that this approach was developed in a state hospital.

[00:39:33]where the most >> extreme severe >> clients were our first our first guinea pigs.

[00:39:42]>> Yeah.

[00:39:42]>> Because I always I feel a sense of confidence >> even when working with very complex clients.

[00:39:52]>> Yeah.

[00:39:52]>> That you know that it will work >> and it just as you said it could take a long time.

[00:40:01]>> Yeah. I I I think for you know those understanding research and or understanding how it works I think there is something to say working with some of the most complex traumatized individuals because that's that's the hardest right because there's a lot of in that sense probably the most protectors the most defense mechanisms right because they've in a way they've had to have so many I think of a castle right they've had to had so many walls put up or trenches or >> tow you know things in place to prevent further pain. And so it's like we have to work through so many more, you know, trenches, moes, walls, bridges, etc. to break get to the what's in the keep. What's what are they really protecting here inside that keep, right?

[00:40:43]The the heart of the castle. And if you can do that right, if we can help this this and get to this place regardless of time and I think sometimes time people get stuck in time at least in my experience like well you know time they get fixated on time which I also think is a protective part but that's for a different conversation. Um but you know I think you're right. And I think it's important that we can see it work with some of the most difficult cases and and that we also see the beauty and wow these people have overcome tremen tremendous intense like what they have gone through is also I think speaks to the resilience of the resiliency of humanity and that being witnessed by another human which is really a lot of the work that you and your team were doing is we are a grounded presence really showing love and care and sitting with and being that that co-regulatory, you know, everything that they really need to be seen soothing and secure, which is that human connection more than anything else, >> which open the door and not for all of them like you said. Sometimes people still >> get stuck >> for whatever reason. And that is I think something to note too that that's where we can't control like I can't fix that.

[00:41:58]I can't change that. I could just show up in a way I could just continue to show up trusting the process but knowing that I can't necessarily >> impose someone to change or get better or choose this. I could just say I'm here.

[00:42:12]>> But you know I think that most of those step points come because there are parts in in conflict.

[00:42:23]>> So I call it gridlock. you know, when when parts are kind of in this exquisite tugofwar >> and the and >> unless the client can notice it >> rather than participate in it, >> um, we're kind of >> I love that. Well, and here's a great question just because you said it. Uh, and I'm, you know, and we'll close out after this and and wrap up, but when what's something that you lean on or a quick intervention or two that you found successful when you do see a client in gridlock like that either someone either clinician listening could help or maybe a client could use on themsel like what's something like this tends to be helpful for them getting out of gridlock? You know, I I I love to use this actually comes um as a result of my sematic training because words are harder to process.

[00:43:21]>> Yeah.

[00:43:21]>> For people having trauma responses.

[00:43:24]>> It was so good. I think people need to hear that more. I think that words are hard to process when you're activated by a trauma response. You're right. I think we forget that sometimes, right?

[00:43:34]>> Yeah. Wow. So awesome.

[00:43:35]>> I And I have I've spent years talking to people who couldn't process what I was saying.

[00:43:42]So I use I use this to represent blending, >> right? As opposed to unblending, >> right?

[00:43:51]>> You know, or I can say, you know, you your parts are at loggerheads, >> I I even developed a hand gesture for self because I had a client who had had 10 years of IFS before she started seeing me.

[00:44:08]So and she thought she said you know if self is a part and my parts are scared of self and I said oh no on the contrary self is a place in your brain >> it gives you a wide angle lens >> well this became our symbol for self because and the parts were not scared as long as self was part of the brain That was okay.

[00:44:39]>> Yeah. Yeah. The visual I think I too sometimes forget that personally as well that and a gentle reminder for all of us that if we're highly activated Yeah. of course words are harder or to even process language, right? Because that's that takes a higher level of functioning or higher level of power to >> and if we're activated, we're in survival state. So words are like what do you mean? You know, if anything, word, and I've seen this, too. Some words activate parts more, protected parts more. In a way, they can I've seen it being used as more fuel to the fuel to the fire, so to speak. They'll take that and turn it against themsel like, well, look, see, you can't even do >> what Travis is saying.

[00:45:23]>> Oh, >> you can't even do the basics, right?

[00:45:25]Well, look at you. Right. So, >> right. Yeah.

[00:45:28]>> I had a client with a big super judgmental fight part.

[00:45:34]>> Yeah. who kept saying to the client, "You can't even do therapy." Right?

[00:45:40]>> Yeah.

[00:45:41]>> Oh, here's here's another visual. I often use my phone because it's always I'll say, "Notice the part and notice you."

[00:45:54]>> I like that. Yeah. I think it's so important the and it's a reminder even for me as I as I'm talking with you of like I need to use visuals more frequently um because it is it's so true that we forget that there's other ways of tuning into this process when words or language or no matter how helpful it might be that sometimes a visual just makes the difference of like am I here you know am I can I notice this part and notice myself here and can I see this and name it and just >> right >> see it or the phone and and that's a great simple accessible uh intervention and as I think about our time I'm wondering you know one more question as if you don't mind is you know just to pivot a little bit is over the you know with all the work and all the shifting you've seen um from you know working with Dr. Judith Herman and Bessel and and just in all your work too with how trauma has shifted over the years. Where do you see like where do you see it going the next 5 10 15 years? Like what what would you envision it? What would you like to see? Um >> well, you know, actually what what I would like to see is is so basic and simple.

[00:47:17]I would like to see more therapists worldwide >> really understand trauma because so many of the therapists who are in my audiences or who are in my trainings um they still think that if they can get the client to talk about the events that will cure them. And so it's like all the work that we've done in the field has not caught up to what I call Jane Schmo average therapist, right? Or even, you know, the average client or potential client. It's like >> it's information that's so valuable and it's not because people like me and Gabbor and others haven't been trying >> but you know >> um I think and also if I could have all my wishes come true.

[00:48:19]>> Yes that's what I mean absolutely where I'll find my wand. Got it.

[00:48:23]>> Okay great.

[00:48:25]I would love for the different models >> to be less siloed because there is so much, you know, if you're an EMDR therapist, that is the one, the only and the best. If you're an IFS therapist, that's the one, the only, and the best.

[00:48:44]And it's like, >> no, trauma is complex.

[00:48:49]Survivors are complex. And they need >> Yes. They need a variety of models >> and that's where poly veagal theory is so helpful >> because it can be it can be a way of thinking that's used in any model >> right >> it's not so siloed >> and I thank you for that wisdom um in this case I will say Dr. Fisher in that sense and and Janita to both of to both of you to all of you.

[00:49:22]>> Totally. Okay, perfect.

[00:49:23]>> Uh is all of you is that I wholeheartedly resonate with that that um and I think a major reason why I have continued my work with the institute the polyagal institute is because of the vision of Dr. Porgis as a unifier.

[00:49:40]>> Right.

[00:49:40]>> Right. That it isn't about one thing.

[00:49:42]It's not about the silo, but it's about an integrative human connection. Like how do we work actually genuinely work together to understand, >> right, >> to learn from each other's strengths knowing that it isn't one person, one man, one woman to solve it all. But we really need all of us, >> right?

[00:50:02]>> And that's how I work too is I really firmly believe that it really requires it's relation. it has to be relational and it's not about me versus them them because that just creates more in my view creates more trauma makes more pain.

[00:50:19]Um and so I love that you said that. I'm so thank you for saying that and again that's why I continue working with the institute is because that's their the heartbeat of their vision, >> right? Um, and so I I love backing and being part of organizations and people that have that same vision because that's what how I see again the world healing is really this unification and relationship and working together not against that we all have something unique to offer. Um cuz like you said beautifully because our clients are multi-dimensional. They really are. They require it's more than just a you know a Phillips screwdriver right or a hammer.

[00:50:57]We we need multiple tools and at the primacy of that is our relationship is our connection at the end of the day because again tools without connection is meaningless too. I mean at the end of the day I could give all the right interventions but without safety and connection it's going to fall flat. Um >> absolutely.

[00:51:14]>> So as we wrap up if people if clients or therapists or coaches want to find your work if they would love to even learn the TIST where would we find you? Where should we go? Uh, you can find me at janninaisher.com.

[00:51:31]>> That's the best place.

[00:51:33]>> That's the easiest place.

[00:51:37]>> And, uh, and I'm very excited because this this year in the last two months, um, we began a training for French therapists in TIS, >> a training for German therapists in TIS.

[00:51:54]>> Wow. We done a South American training for South American therapists and we've been doing trainings for Italian therapists for several years and not to mention our sort of home in the English trainings.

[00:52:13]>> Wow.

[00:52:15]>> Wow. That's phenomenal.

[00:52:17]>> It's very cool.

[00:52:18]>> I'm sure for you to see too like exciting like wow this is really >> very exciting. That's very exciting. And that's that's amazing. And I I hope too that more people get their hands on it.

[00:52:28]And um yeah, so if you're those that are listening, the link will be in the description to to click on that. And just want to thank you so much for your time today. Um and blessings to all the work that you're doing and will continue to do. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Um >> and thank you.

[00:52:46]Thank you because you bring so much together.

[00:52:51]>> Oh, thanks.

[00:52:53]Well, uh, have a great rest of your day.

[00:52:56]>> Thank you.

[00:52:57]>> Thank you for listening to Wired for Connection, a Polyvagel podcast. This show is produced by the Poly Veagel Institute, an international nonprofit organization dedicated to creating a safer and more connected world.

[00:53:12]PVI provides education, resources, and community to those interested in learning more about polyagal theory and applying polyagel principles in personal and professional contexts.

[00:53:24]To learn more about polyagel theory and other offerings, visit us at polyagel.org where you can join our online community space and access our free learning library. You will also find information about upcoming courses and community events. Connect with us on social media.

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