Day 7 Apple River Stabbing Trial: Miu Testifies, State Cross-Examines

[00:00:01][Music] [Music] e e e e e [Music] and good morning thank you so much for joining us across our Fox 9 at digital platforms today I am Paul Bloom and this is our gabble to gavel coverage of the Apple River stabbing trial in St Croy County Wisconsin we are getting started a few minutes early for you to get you set for Tuesday today's critical witness testimony as the state wraps up its case and Chief and the defense by all accounts prepares to put Nikolai Miu on the witness stand maybe as soon as this afternoon perhaps Wednesday morning to tell his side of the story Court scheduled to resume now at the top of the hour we'll take you right out to Hudson Wisconsin once it does as I've said all along we are monitoring our courtroom feed to ensure you do not miss a moment as prosecutors continue to make their case at the stabbings on the river were a senseless avoidable intentional act to kill and injure Miu is now 54 years old he's been jailed for nearly two years and is facing five total counts first agree intentional murder for the slang of 17-year-old Isaac Schuman as well as four other charges of attempted first-degree murder for the four others stabbed that day Riley Madison AJ Martin and then Brothers Tony and Dante Carlson Miu and his legal team arguing self-defense that the others were the aggressors antagonized Ing and provoking the encounter and that muu only lashed out to protect himself from Death Or great bodily harm on the Apple River July 30th 20122 the state said Monday it only has two more witnesses to call Dr Victor froloff a Ramsey County Medical Examiner who presumably conducted the autopsy on Schuman as well as Lieutenant Brandy Hart who met with meu at the jail after his arrest Lieutenant Hart spoke to Miu at length about what happened his defense team already acknowledging during their openings Miu lied during her his conversations with the lieutenant it is recorded what does the jury make of those statements now a reminder on your screen right here the key Witnesses from yesterday including jailhouse nurse Ashley Hoffman I want to take a moment here to go back and hear from her as meu's Pro post arrest comments look to play a crucial role in testimony later this morning what did he report as being the uh the injuries he reported getting hit in the back of the the head and in the back um did not have any pain when I was talking with him the only pain is um was on his butt from hitting the stones on the river did he report any kind of injury to his ears he had reported that someone told him there was blood on his ear um part of my examination I do look in the ears with an oscope and I did not not note anything um worth mentioning no injuries or anything like that did you see any blood in his ear no not at that time did he report which ear he supposedly had blood from if you know or did you check both ears I checked both ears um but I do not remember which ear specifically U down at the towards the bottom of page five there's a category that indicates statements made by suspect during the exam yes um did you fill that part out yes I did what kind of statements did Mr MW make to you during the exam once statement was there were about seven people on top of me hitting me in the back of the head and on the back I don't know with what a second statement made was they just attacked me they called me a child rapist a third statement made was a guy pulled a knife on me I took his wrist and turned it into his belly um in the when he was reporting his injuries to you did he make any mention of being struck in the face if you recall um I do not recall directly did he make any mention of being strangled not to my recollection and if he had would you have noted that yes did you examine his neck and throat area yes did you find anything uh that would indicate that he had been strangled no not that I have noted he examined his face yes do you see any bruising or cuts that you I noted a 2 cm by 1 cm abrasion to his um posterior head so the back of the head right how about his face did you notice anything to his face uh nothing to the outside of his face on the inside of his left cheek there was an abrasion all right on the outside of his face did you see any puffiness or swelling no not that I recall any red marks of any kind no not that I recall um you did talk about um an abrasion to the inside of his cheek did he tell you how that happened yes what did he tell you I bit it when I was attacked and you're just watching nurse Ashley Hoffman she conducted the jailhouse um uh assessment with Nikolai Miu documenting his injuries obviously making some statements there to her uh now taking a live look inside the courtroom you're seeing the Seal of course of the state of Wisconsin where at about 7:55 Central Time judge Waterman has run a punctual on time uh trial throughout uh he's very uh very close to the top of the hour every time he says uh for the party should be ready to go at 8: a we will monitor this courtroom feed uh today obviously the huge question is is does Nikolai Miu uh take the witness stand today in his own defense the state has said they have two final Witnesses today a medical examiner and then Lieutenant Brandy Hart uh Lieutenant did the um the lengthy interrogation uh with Nikolai Miu uh inside the jail we know the defense has tried to get that statement tossed out uh they said uh Miu asserted his rights to to speak to an attorney uh in the moment uh he had is the way the filing suggest he had asked when do I get to speak to an attorney when does an attorney arrive uh those types of inquiries but never spefic specifically stated uh that he wanted an attorney then and there and he wanted to remain silent so therefore judge Waterman has ruled the entire interrogation comes in it is recorded So presumably if we see Lieutenant Hart shortly uh this morning as we expect uh we do expect to see sections of that interrogation recorded uh if not video at least audio wise uh and as the defense has acknowledged already uh during opening statements to this jury he lied he lied that uh uh it was his knife he lied about that he lied that the his attackers quote unquote had uh had taken the knife off of him what does that testimony look like we should hear from Lieutenant Hart uh shortly again my guess would be we hear from the medical examiner first lieutenant Hart afterwards the state would then rest and then the defense they do have several more witnesses on their submitted witness list but presumably now their defense case comes down to Nikolai Miu and as we wait for the begin beginning of the proceedings another Focus throughout the trial did Nikolai Miu say anything to Isaac Schuman and his fellow Stillwater tubers about searching the river for little girls as he used his snorkel and goggles to look for his friend's lost cell phone we're going to put that uh Jaan cockfield video on your screen here you can see what brings him back why does he Scamper back to those tubes he loses the snorkel and goggles there and then it devolves from there uh it gets aggressive a lot of talk about the interaction between him and Madison Cohen who hits who first and what prompts the physical altercation to escalate the kids of course they have now all testified he said me that Miu said something to the effect of I'm looking for little girls and that's what got them all riled up yesterday on the stand the defense as St Cy County Sheriff's investigator Andrew dipman if during his initial interviews with Isaac schuman's friends did the investigator hear anything about little girls here's his response on the witness stand yesterday you interviewed Joan cockfield did Joan cockfield ever tell you during your interview with him that Mr me was looking for little girls uh not that I recall he did not say that if he would have said that is that something you would put in the report work our job is to be FactFinder and document everything as as best as we can accurately so your job you're not really to pick sides you're just kind of to to get the information in and then get it back out right correct okay and in our jobs maybe people don't think about this but telling a police officer that someone's looking for little girls you're not going to let that go without trying to dig a Little Deeper if you hear that right correct okay so if he would have said to you I've been told by Mr Mew that he was looking for little girls that's something that would have drawn your attention right yes okay same question with Ryan Nelson sir your interview with Ryan Nelson did he ever meent or he never mentioned to you right that Mr Mew told him that he was looking for and I guess all the interviews I was never told anything that anybody was looking for little girls so you'd agree Mr cockfield Mr Nelson Mr Peloquin Mr Vang and Mr Weir none of them in their interviews with you which were recorded mentioned to you that Nick that Nick Mew told them he was looking for little girls right uh to my recollection I do not believe that was ever said and again for each one of these people especially if you heard it over and over again that might be something you would really document then because there's continued statements regarding it right correct and you didn't right correct that's all Mr Anderson one thing you heard over and over from the witnesses you interviewed was that M turn physical when Nikolai punched the blond girl right correct Owen said he believed she punched or Nikolai punched her right yes and the other boys all saw they actually witnessed Nikolai punch the blond girl correct and that's what started what turned the into in physical yes from my recollection that's when I was told that chaos ensued was when the punch was thrown when the punch was thrown chaos ensued the punch in question there Nikolai Miu Madison Cohen who hits who uh is Madison in his space the punch the escalation from there the Carlson Brothers jump on Miu start assaulting him believing their friend was struck it's not on tape it's not on the Jaan cockfield tape so of course this will all come down to what Nikolai Miu says likely today on the witness stand about what happened in those moments where he decided to pull out the knife and stab the five here is your jury we've shown you this throughout the process eight men Six Women they have 14 they will dismiss two alternates at the end of this trial uh 12 will deliberate we do not know who the two alternates are so we do not know what the ultimate gender makeup will be we've heard from several legal experts this week they're particularly curious on the older nature of this panel that eight eight of the jurors sitting in Judgment of Nikolai mu or peers or older meaning they may come to this uh Through The Eyes of a older man in that situation how would you react the children taunting uh uh egging on uh provoking if you will and then the claims of self-defense again we don't know who the two alternates are eight men Six Women and we will eventually see if if this plays out as we expect with the state perhaps resting its case you know maybe by lunchtime early afternoon then the defense do we hear from Nikolai muu this afternoon or will the defense try to get him on the stand first thing tomorrow morning and then we would get into closings and by my best guess I would expect the jury to have have this case certainly by Thursday morning maybe uh Wednesday afternoon obviously we are continuing to monitoring uh monitor the feed into the courtroom you can see the the state seal of Wisconsin right there and we are now past the hour 803 we don't see any movement so now might be a good time uh in addition oh there is Judge Michael Waterman so I will hold it on here um this is our seventh day of trial remember we sat a jury last Monday morning uh uh we got into opening statements the first couple Witnesses we had Witnesses all week uh full day of witness testimony Yesterday by my count 45 individual Witnesses have now testified and judge Waterman is speaking we'll take you now to Hudson Wisconsin s Croy County circuit court day s state of Wisconsin versus Nikolai me the attorneys are present uh Mr MW is present 14 Jers are present uh we are ready to resume uh testimony uh Mr smad who is the next witness we call Dr fof Dr froloff please come forward uh please face the clerk raise your right hand she will administer the yat do you truth I do please have a seat in the witness chair yes you may Mr smad how we state your name and spell your last name please my name is Victor froloff first name Victor v c r last name f r o l o FF and what's your occupation uh I'm an assistant medical examiner for r County and generally what are is there a cell phone I hear music yes Sor please turn all right maybe you should step out all right we got it again it's amazed I am amazed that we've gotten this far in the trial without a cell phone so I compliment you all um but please make sure all devices are turned off uh they can be a distraction to the attorneys and the witnesses during their important work uh Mr smithad Dr fof what are your general duties as a medical examiner we have uh multiple duties I was hired by Dr Mills to perform um autopsy autopsy it's examination of the dead bodies of course uh we have to sign a death certificates when phys physician refused to sign we approve all cremations uh in the state of Minnesota and of course I have to do autopsy I have to express my opinion about CA and matters death and uh sometimes I have to give my opinion about caum matters that is in the court are you occasionally asked by St C County to complete autopsies for deaths that occur in s cor County yes s County it's our neighbors across the river so they usually send cases complicated cases to us um how long have you been a medical examiner uh my official position assistant medical examiner I employed in this position for 19 years I can approach on yes doctor I'm going to show you what's been marked as exhibit 61 recognize that document yes exib exhibit 61 it's a hard copy of my CV but cvu your means curriculum of V that's correct does it set forth your credentials training that type of thing yes does it also set forth uh teaching uh jobs you've had and Publications that you've contributed to or wrote yourself yes can you base uh please just summarize your education um I'm physician for like 39 years I graduate medical school um I did one year of internship um in Internal Medicine I practiced emergency medicine for many years and um 30 years ago I immigrate to United States basically I have to start all over so I pass all my test in order I decided I'd like to do forensic pathology in order to do forensic pathology uh you need to do some specialized training I graduate from University of Minnesota in pathology in I two fellowships in Milwaukee so I trained in Wisconsin so it's Medical College of Wisconsin and uh miluk County Medical Examiner office and I get back to in Minnesota have you been working at the ransy county um medical examiner's office you said 19 years is I've been continuously with Ramsey County yeah I don't work for Ramsey County I work for Dr Mills who is a Ramsey County Medical Examiner she hired me to perform autopsy but yes continuously for 19 years yes do you have a general idea of how many autopsies you performed at that time uh um I don't count outop sees anymore it's uh over 4,000 outop sees and now it's um approximately rate 300 autopsies per year can you um tell the jury what the field of pathology entails what's all involved with it uh pathology it's a branch of the medicine study basically nature of the disease such as cancer for example and what's the forensic pathology forensic pathology and forensic pathologist use U medical knowledge in the legal cases um cases um unusual death unusual circumstance and violent death and are you licensed to practice medicine I have full two and unrestricted licenses for state of Minnesota and state of Wisconsin um and obviously he's performing autopsies on folks that have been killed that's part of your duties uh yes we perform you know we involve in investigation and perform an autopsy in a homicide this for those who might not know can you describe what an autopsy is um autopsy it's a complex procedure first of all we like to know what happened with the body second I perform external examination at the time of the external examination we collect trace evidence um DNA sexual assault kid um some other um you know specimens if I have to then I perform internal examination of the body it's called aeration basically we open body we look for damage we look for any type of injury we look for diseases at the same time I'm taking photographs and um another large part of adaps it's um performing toxicology at the time of the examination we collect body fluids such as blood uh bile we collect urine if it's available we collect fluid from I called Vitus humor and I collect uh tissue samples uh for Toxicology such as liver did you perform an autopsy on Isaac Schuman back in uh 2022 I perform autopsy on Isaac Schuman on July 31st 2022 you're correct yes and do you prepare reports regarding U or did you prepare reports regarding the autopsy that you uh completed of Isaac Schuman yes we usually issue like provisional reports like my initial diagnosis initial thinking without toxicology is the same day and uh when I'm done with full investigation and toxicology um I sign a final autopsy report I can approach RoR yes we can have a minute they're all m Mark is unit number 60 you recognize that document yes exhibit 60 it's a again hard copy of my provisional report is that the report you do before the toxicology has come back that is correct I show you what's been marked as exhibit 17 I'll ask if you recognize that uh exhibit 17 it's a again a hard copy of my final oopy protocol going ask you some questions about those documents doctor when you did the autopsy of Isaac Schuman did you follow your normal autopsy protocol that you described earlier yes we follow you know some general rules yes did you complete uh an external examination of his body yes and what findings did you make on the external examination of his body um before start external examination of the body I just need to tell you that I got body from the hospital he was pronounced that at the hospital he had a medical uh we call artifacts he had a tube inside of his oral cavity just help him to breathe he had two IV lines in vascular axis but uh it was um inser is his bones and um he had a multiple surgic and packing material saturated was a blood and I absorve a body on my table it was some blood present on his body and I observe Sharon injury to his left chest um did you take photographs during your external examination of Isaac's body yes I did that tend to take you know many photographs all right um did you complete an internal examination of Isaac's body yes and is that part of the usual B y procedure yes you correct um can you summarize the results of your internal examination of Isaac's body sure um as I said I observe most important I observe sharp was injury to his left chest later I classified this wound as a stab wound Stab Wound it's um it's um basically it's a sharpo injury Stab Wound when when is depth of the wound exceeds length of the wood on the skin so it was stab to the left chest the stabon penetrate to his um left chest cavity uh he had a damage call it sharp procedur to the to his fifth and sixth ribs on the left chest cavity um then wound kind of continues and go to the left lung I was able to identify uh sharpo injury to the lower L of the left lung he had a blood in his left uh left chest cavity I recovered 200 cubic cm it's approximately glass of the blood in his left chest cavity and um he had damaged sharp for injury to his pericardium pericardium it's a coverage kind of like sack around his heart and he had a Shar for injury to the apex of the heart Apex it's a pointy part of the heart like uh they had a damage uh sharp was injury to the uh left ventricle of the heart and uh he had condition and I identify this condition on x-ray I performed before autopsy he had a condition called pneumotox pneumotox is present of the um air in the chest cavity so two condition pneumotox air and hemo tox present on the blood and his organs midline organs was kind of shifted to the right it's called deviation to the right it's because it's collection of the uh air in the left chest cavity I can approach again your honor yes you may show you what's been marked as exhibit 24 and I'll ask if you recognize that doc guess that group of um yes exhibit 24 it's hard copy of some of my images I took at the time of the examination was the photographs you took during your examination of Isaac Schuman s yes all right and I want to go through this page by Page judge yes you [Music] may e e e Dr froloff I'm going to go through each of the um 12 photos that are in exhibit 24 page one uh what is that a photo of um U I believe it's page one it's a hard copy of the swim trunk or swimsuit which I took from the body was um Isaac humanman wearing anything else other than this the swim trunks when you received his body no page two can you tell us what that is um page two that's um image of the body taken from the left side so the gentleman that's on my table I took this photographs he covered by uh medical um just basically Hospital type of sheath his uh hands covered by Brown Bags why are his hands covered if you know uh this is part of the our requirement uh in cases for suspicious cases we ask law enforcement or medical personnel cover hands with bag to protect trace evidence because we have to collect trace evidence at the time of zsy so it's part of the standard procedure all right page three what does that show I hope we not the same page uh I believe this is um when I took a bag from his hands this is image of the uh wrist uh left wrist and uh I just document that he had a it's my name tag and it's um Hospital number he was ID by Hospital number and he had a golden colar chain or bracelet on his um left wrist did when when his body came to you did he have that that bracelet on he has actually I recovered later it was uh because his hands were bagged but he had a bracelet yes all right page four can you tell us what that is Page four I believe this is image of the back of his uh right hand page five uh page five that's again it's a photograph of the front of his uh right hand P six page six it's again it's a photograph of the front of his uh right hand I just try to take a picture in the different angle to see you know how it turns all right and then page seven you tell us what that is Page seven uh page seven it's a hard copy of the image of his left hand back of his left hand and then page eight page8 it's a again image of the front of his left hand um page nine can you tell us what that is Page n um on the page n when we collect trace evidence uh again I wash a body and photograph body again this is picture of the front of his body anterior chest we call it anterior chest but basically front of the body and in his left chest you can see oblique it's meaning running at angle angle um sharp was injury in this case it's a stab wound to the left chest under this wound he had a small um I had a hard time to subclassify Tiny kind of like abrasion I described in the final report that this a separtion it's very superficial injuries um and this sharpest injury it's again it's fairly uh large I measure it's uh 10 cm it's approxim 3.9 in in length the next page can you tell us what that is next page um that's a closeup um of his uh stab onto the left chest um it's located below the left nipple and again just close up I just want to show jury I don't know defense attorney prosecutor uh that this is indeed sharpo injury and both ends of the wound is um sharp that's could be important in some cases to describe exact you know details of the stab W on the next page is that from your internal examination of is's body um next page yes that's a uh image of the left chest when I remove his skin from the left chest I observe that he had sharp was injured to two ribs so two ribs was completely kind of like transected um so weapon went through his rib cage uh just want to show you that it's uh damage of a two ribs I make sure I understand you Dr froloff when you say that his ribs were transected what do you mean by that it's a sharpest injury to the rib ribs and what was the damage to the ribs it's completely cut well I can say cut off how many ribs were completely cut two all right um on the next page if you can tell us what that is next page um it's again a hard copy of the image of the heart I mentioned to you when examp his body I observed that he had a sharp force injury uh to the A apex of the heart it's like pointy part of the heart so I measure it's um 5 cm it's approximately 2 Ines in length honor I'm going to ask for permission to publish the photos to the jury it's my intention just to give the hard copies to the jurors rather than putting anything on the screen Mr Nelson any objection to exhibit 24 yes as we discussed uh but uh I understand your honor yes I've overruled the objection we can talk more later uh members of the jury um Mr smat is going to hand you the paper photographs uh from Dr froloff examination um the photographs are evidence consider it as much as your sensibilities allow um it may be difficult to look at um so if you need to avert your eyes or set it aside uh you may do so but it is evidence and I ask that you consider it as much as you are uh able to uh please share the photos than give your back in the order they were in it's clear be a good idea to have them stapled so become shuffled or paginate him uh Dr froloff uh were any laboratory tests performed as part of the autopsy process yes I perform no full toxicology on this gentlemen and um what were the results of the toxicology that was done for Isaac Schuman um P was positive for ethanol and uh uh BAC blood alcohol concentration it's uh 0.219 did he have any other substances in his blood no there is no other substance so drugs um in your field forensic pathology what is the term cause of death refer to uh we have to express opinion about cause of the death basically it's how people die in the case of for example you know people die from heart attack that's CA of the death and what does the term manner of death mean in your field and um matter of the death it's how cost of the death came to be and in the case of a heart attack that's going to be natural death um based on the autopsy you performed um of Isaac Schuman were you able to determine a cause of death yes what was this cause of death uh in my opinion cause of the death it stab wound to the left chest and based on the autopsy you performed of Isaac's body were you able to determine a manner of death yes and what was that conclusion in my opinion uh man wases in this case it's a homicide honor I don't have any other questions for the doctor I'm going to move oh pardon me as part of your examination of Isaac did you measure his height and weight yes we measure length of the body not Hees but length of the body and weight yes what was the length of the body and the weight for Isaac Schuman uh he was weighted 134 lbs do you remember how tall he was how long he was and again we measure length of the bodies a little bit different than height 6.1 and the evidence that you gathered um from Mr Schuman uh as I turned over to the Sheriff's Office um I believe you know evidence and we collect you know the trace evidence in this case was released to I believe in the 2nd of August to Sheriff's Office yes did you as part of your exam mination of um Isaac Tak DNA samples uh again in every case we collect uh in this case we collect sexual assault kit but uh uh basically we collect um hair Buckle swaps swaps uh inside of the oral caval Buckle swaps suitable for DNA yes and were those items also turned over to the Sheriff's Department I believe so yes um and getting back to the the injury to Isaac's uh chest you measure how deep that injury is uh yes I measure uh depths of the one it's 11 cm it's approximately 4.3 in all I don't have any other questions your I'm going to move for admission of exhibit 24 61 the two on the Venture if I can approach 24 is already received any objection to 1 think that's the preliminary objection to the CV 17 is 60 oh me 61 was the CV uh that's received what was the other exhibit 60 is the provisional report no objection 17 is the final report no objection both received thank you Mr Nelson you're a medical examiner good morning counselor I'm not medical examiner uh official position assistant medical examiner in in general Your Role is you're a medical examiner I understand you take a you have a title and a position but your role is you you're an me right I'm an assistant medical examiner yes for Ramy County that's official position okay and you're here to tell us um essentially two things one is that Isaac schuman's deceased right um he was agree with that yes I agree he was deceased before I started aops yes and another essentially what you're here to say is um how he died correct yes as you said you want to know what happened correct would like to know what happened yes and as part of that you do uh an autopsy you examine the body correct yes because sometimes that helps to figure out what happened correct you're correct yes um you would agree that it's unusual in your field to like have a video of what happened agreed well lately we have more and more videos because everything on cameras but yes sometimes videos taken at the time of was the incident yes and obviously you would agree that a video is is helpful for all of us to determine what happened right uh again my job to determine costs and matters of that express my opinion and videos sometimes important yes correct did you see the video in this case I did not observe any videos have you ever observed any photos or frames from that video I prefer not to I was not offered but I was told by prosecution that video available but I deny I didn't didn't observe video okay um and again just to summarize your opinion is um he died do it due to a penetrating stab wound to his left chest correct um in the final report I said exanguination basically bleeding to the desk to the stab onto the left chest you correct um medical examiners even assisted medical examiners there's a is there a board certification process for that position it's some it depends on which field yes okay in your field there's a board certification process sir yes are you board certified I'm a diplomat of the American Board of medical legal death investigators are you board certified for as a medical examiner there is no board certification for medical examiners board certification for forensic pathology the um you talked about um manner of death and cause of death is that right yes and I think just so we know again just cause of death is stab wound to the left chest in simple terms correct you are correct yes and then the manner is as you said how that cause came to be agreed yes and that's a medical term correct um it's a forensic forensic term yes a forensic medical term correct sure it's not a legal term correct it's not a legal term no and the cause of death there are essentially you have four options five options no for manner of the death we have for cost of death it's indefinite you know for manner of the death we have limited options yes absolutely so manner of death there's limited options only five uh we have we can choose from the natural deaths accidental deaths suicidal deaths homicidal deaths and if I cannot determine I can say it it's undetermined as you correct okay so there is no determination that you can make that you're qualified to do as to whether or not the homicide occurred as a result of self-defense agreed oh I never testified that the self-defense or the issue homicide basically from forensic point of view it's meaning life taken by another person sure and again that's outside of your field whether it's self-defense agreed yes I never testified about self-defense yes okay in this situation you um examined Isaac schuman's body and part of that was the toxicology is that right yes and you determined that his blood alcohol concentration was 0.219 agreed it's not me it's a lab a lab that you rely on and you uh in your work correct yes so based upon your relying on that lab you agree his blood alcohol concentration was 219 that's correct and the you're aware that the legal limit for adults permitted to drink alcohol is 08 correct uh in the state of Wisconsin driving legal limit it's 08 you correct so this would be over two and a half times the legal limit correct yes all right now you talked about the the wound and you described that agreed yes um the manner in which somebody would receive uh Stab Wound is a dynamic process you agree you're correct yes there would be uh you're not here to tell anybody about the amount of force that was used to cause that wound agreed it's usually hard to determine Force apply in the cases like that yes and part of the reason that it's hard to determine is because the process is so dyamic correct oh it's not just Dynamic it's uh nature of the weapon and so on and so on and at least part of it and I understand there might be more complications part of it is is that it might be one object going into another object it might be two objects moving towards each other correct those are at least two of the possible Dynamics involved if you mean objects it's a humans right correct and I apologize a person person and uh the knife you're absolutely right I apologize you agree it's Dynamic process yes and so part of that to try to measure if one was to try to think about that Force you'd have to know whether the person who's receiving that wound in what direction they're moving correct it's again it's so many things you need to consider yes you would agree though if the person receiving the wound is moving towards the knife that's going to impact how the injury occurs agreed yes if the person receiving the wound is reaching out that's going to impact the wound that is received you know I can't speculate because you know it's it's possibility but again I'm here to express opinion about cost and matters us and uh I never you know observed this incident um sure sure but again it it's really hard to tell what happened because I don't know what happened exactly I understand but you were here to say a certain depth of the wound and that was something that you pointed out to the jury correct uh depth of the wound it's easy to measure and it's objective kind of things sure so you would agree though it's fair for me to ask you questions about how it made came to be that the wound became that deep that's a fair question you agree sure okay so let's talk about that are you fine with that uh until you know some points yes yeah and so that may have occurred if a body is moving towards that knife that's going to impact the depth of the wound agreed yes if a and if a 6' one 135 34 person is moving towards into that knife that might make it the knife go deeper correct that's again I can't predict how deep exactly but it's possibility yes sure and certainly if that person 6' 134 lb is falling forward so all their weight is going forward onto that knife that's going to impact the force as well correct that's a possibility yes and certainly if the person who's holding the knife is falling backwards that might might impact the force involved uh to the wound correct I guess so it's possibility yes and if the person with holding the knife who's falling backward if they only reach out a small amount that's going to impact the force that causes the depth of the wound correct as I said it's so many variables I can't speculate it's uh I don't know uh I'm in pathology again I have to express opinion cause and manner of us and this is just like what potential could happen if I I I don't have a straight answer correct and part of what you do in medicine is sometimes you come up with a hypothesis right I don't come with the with hypothesis it's just like I can official like statement um you know like depth of the wound could be um you know like deeper than um length of the Blain or shorter or it's going to be equal this great questions I can't answer about what's potential happen at the time of the incident it's Endless Possibilities I don't know and you agree that the possibilities that I talk with you about those are reasonable possibilities that if someone were to try to consider the force should be considered agreed sure those are the only questions I have just m dad nothing further all right thank you Dr F you may step down am I excuse the owner our excuse thank you how's everyone doing anybody need a short recess okay judge I'd suggest a break now sorry the next witness I think will be lengthy so it might be a good idea to take up okay um in that event then let's recess for 10 minutes we'll come back at 8:55 all [Music] right yeah who has the photographs okay yeah Mr SM did everybody get to turn them over please we are in recess 10 [Music] minutes and good morning for from our fox9 streaming Center you of course watching our Apple River stabbing trial gavl to gavl coverage from Hudson Wisconsin St Croy County uh circuit court on this Tuesday Morning we've just heard from the medical uh examiner the assistant medical examiner in Ramsey County so the city of St Paul area for those unfamiliar with our immediate market area um Isaac Schuman um Dr froloff uh conducted the autopsy you heard the specifics there uh the damage to the two ribs the heart uh cause of ruled a homicide and that another human being uh took his life it is not a legal determination um we have a sound bite up uh from the assistant medical examiner Dr froloff uh in case you missed his earlier testimony let's uh take that take you right back into the courtroom for some of uh Dr froloff testimony we like to know what happened yes and as part of that you do uh an autopsy you examine the body correct yes because sometimes that helps to figure out what happened correct you're correct yes um you would agree that it's unusual in your field to like have a video of what happened agreed well lately we have more and more videos because everything SE on cameras but yes sometimes videoos taken at the time of the incident yes and obviously you would agree that a video is helpful for all of us to determine what happened right uh again my job to determine and matters as express my opinion and videos sometimes important yes corre did you see the video in this case I did not observe any videos have you ever observed any photos or frames from that video I prefer not to I was not offered but I was told by prosecution that video available but I deny I didn't didn't observe video okay um and again just to summarize your opinion is uh um he died du due to a penetrating stab wound to his left chest correct um in the final report said exanguination basically bleeding to the death to the stab onto the left chest you all right so let's set the stage at this point Dr froloff we have been told now the state could change uh have changed its mind overnight uh and thought of another witness to call but the state had two witnesses in line uh for today to wrap up their case one was the assistant Medical examiner Victor froloff there the second one is Lieutenant Brandy Hart the lieutenant did the jail housee interrogation with Nikolai Miu after his arrest on July 30th 2022 the statements he made during that interrogation I believe it was over 70 minutes at the jail are damning uh he lies and the defense uh has acknowledged during opening statements that uh Nikolai Miu lied during his interrogation in custody that uh the kids had the knife and that he took it off of them that uh uh his reaction uh again they're they're claiming self-defense not that that's a lie that's their defense but the idea that it wasn't his knife he didn't have a knife at that point those statements are going to come in so we anticipate the last state witness coming up is Lieutenant Brandy Hart you just heard uh Aaron Nelson miu's defense attorney Brandy Hart the case presumably then the state would rest and then it would be in the defense hands and then the question becomes when and if and then the assumption is they will put Nikolai Miu on the witness stand uh do you put them on right away does the defense have more witnesses this day we'll have to watch as it unfolds but it certainly sets up the the prospects of we hear from Brandy Hart on the interrogation the statements he made in the immediate a math uh perhaps the misleading statements the L in statements and then all of a sudden we could go right to Nikolai Miu himself so it would be a fascinating sort of ping ponging situation uh for this jury to see and listen to in that courtroom that's at least in my anticipation is what I'm expecting today again there could be some surprises the state may have a last uh rethought their case and maybe have an additional witness perhaps the defense has one or two more character type Witnesses or someone else on the river that day they want to call before getting into me that's how the rest of this day Stacks up we want to take a moment again the court in recess for about 10 minutes I want to go back to some testimony from yesterday from Isaac schuman's good friend Owen Peloquin Owen is on the river he's tubing uh with Isaac Schuman we heard his account of what happened his belief that uh Miu struck Madison Cohen Madison Cohen punched her in the face and that's what uh really escalated the physical confrontation between the two groups while we have a moment we want to keep our viewers updated and remind them what's happened not everybody's watching our coverage every single minute let's go back to some testimony from Monday morning This Owen Peloquin at that point once these other folks came over it fair to say that you uh you and your friends were less scared yeah definitely at that point were you laughing at them yeah we kind of just thought it was all fun and games at that point cuz we thought the adults would handle it sorry I missed that last P did you repeat your answer uh sorry could you ask the question again sorry were you less scared and you I think your answer was you were yeah I was way less scared when I saw the adults the adults made me feel way more comfortable all right um did Mr MW say anything about why he didn't want to leave where you guys were the area where you were he was not speaking um were you able to see his face as the the blonde lady was yelling at him um to an extent yeah his face was just emotionless like like if you looked at him it looked like he was looking straight through you um did he look scared did it did it look did I look scared did he look scared no not was he looked like he was like somehow kind of having fun objection speculation sustained um did you hear Mr Mew call out for help at any time never now it's some point uh as he's talking to the blonde lady um did you see him uh have a knife um yes I did can you describe how that all happened um it's kind of blurry but I just remember just we were all in like this we were all together and then I just remember like looking at him and then looking down at his hand and his hand was just gripping a knife and then yeah you know where it came where he got the knife from yeah it came out of his right pocket all right had you seen it in his pocket prior I saw the clip yeah and did you describe the knife to the police yes I did did you see him take the knife out of his pocket if you remember it's really blurry I can't really give you honest an answer we're going to show you some still frames from the video okay pardon me we're going to we're going to play the video before that I have one question when you saw the knife did you say something to your friends about the knife yes I did what did you say I said bro he's got a knife and I tried to pull some people back you can go by can't you we could have yes but now you're getting braver because of the number of people that are around yes because there was adults and we were trying to handle the situation right you guys start to try to handle the situation instead of just going by which is what you could have done right it was all so quick and like I don't really feel like no one really leaving that situation says it was all so quick and the commotion was just like everywhere we were just young kids that were curious as to what was going on and we wanted to see finish what we were what we were seeing you wanted to see it finish cuz it was on tape right I'm not sure I understand your question COI Joan cockfield is videotaping this entire thing isn't he uh yes he is right you wanted to see how this tape played out you wanted to see how this incident finished right I wouldn't I wouldn't say we ever did it just for like a camera like a video well do you remember him yelling for the culture remember that I do not you don't remember him yelling that I don't okay do you remember somebody in your group yelling or saying to somebody you got 10 seconds remember that you don't recall that did you say that did not okay so Mr Mew moves over to the blonde you agree there's a path to go through but you want to see this through right yeah okay what do you want to see through just the commotion I don't know we were just watching we none of us touched them none of us did anything right you want to see the you want to see how the commotion we didn't want to leave also the two girls that were talking talking to him alone like I mean there's just so much stuff like he couldn't really say like we should just leave cuz I don't know who would just leave in that situation because it was all so quick people who were scared might want to leave right your H that was a question over right could you repeat that people who were scared might want to leave right yes but when we saw the adults we felt more comfortable oh I you guys be to call him a pedophile and a predator right yes you guys are taunting him aren't you I wouldn't say taunting I'd say just telling it how it was and he made us feel that way and he scared us and so you were paying him back I wouldn't say paying him back no well would you agree you guys are around him all pointing hold on all pointing at him chanting just m dad I understand you wanted to talk about something too and with that we're going to dump out of yesterday own Peloquin testimony let's listen in the court judge Michael Waterman is back on the bench to clear up before we start T all right let's before we get ahead let's talk about the exhibit 24 Mr Nelson you objected to two of the photographs yes judge I approached made an objection under 9043 um to the last two photographs of the 12 photograph package um here honor over my objection Mr mad anything you want to add no uh the way I looked at it is uh the photographs uh were um I don't know what the right word is but um they were um part of the internal examination uh and I understand that um Mr Nelson believed that they were potentially unfairly prejudicial against his client uh I overruled the objection because the state has the burden of proof uh one of the elements of proof uh is um uh death at the hands of Mr Mew um although the defense may not be aggressively contesting that point uh the state still has the burden of proving it uh the photographs in question went directly to uh the cause of death and Dr froloff opinions so for that reason I concluded that it was relevant and because it was uh so relevant it outweighed the potential Prejudice to Mr Mew all right um judge lastly the defense has no objection to those photos being sealed that's fine with us all right um okay I should know judge not all the jurors have seen the photos yet I think they went out for their break before right so when they come in I'll give them back to whoever doesn't seem to yet all right I'll make a note of that and uh make sure that the photos are available what's the next issue are they just Sor are they being sealed you give me a legal basis I need more than just 950 your preference we're not going to deal with it right now okay I I don't want to deal with it right now um there are considerations Beyond um the attorney's agreement when sealing records there's very few circumstances when I can seal records from the public um and I want to be mindful of that because uh there is uh more interests uh at play here than just the attorneys Mr Muse and mine next topic uh Mr sman Mr Anderson so at Lieutenant Hart testified at the preliminary hearing pretty much uh part of it was about her interview a good chunk of it was summarizing the video so I just want to make sure given the Court's ruling previously that there's not going to be questions of her interpretation of the video when she wasn't there um that's a question for the jury also there we're going to play the entire interview from the very start until the interview ends when Lieutenant Hart leaves there's like approximately 15 minutes or so after that where the camera keeps running that we're not going to play that but it incorporates part you know going over Miranda with Mew so I just want to make sure there's not going to be any questions suggesting that his right to an attorney was violated it's irrelevant the court has already ruled that it wasn't um that he waved knowingly intelligently his right to counsel uh who wants to speak um I'm not I wasn't planning on challenging a Miranda issue at this point um I do think however that the last that the video should be played in its entirety and what I mean by that is there's a period of time where the video is still running uh Lieutenant Hart leaves the room and Mr Mew is speaking on the tape and he makes some statements on that there's no reason that the jury shouldn't get to hear those um they're relevant they go to his state of mind and I I'm asking that the court if they're going to play the tape they play the entirety of the tape um I'm going to play it if they don't play it I guess um and I think that the rule of completeness would require that the entirety of the video be played for the FactFinder Mr Anderson they have no legal basis if we didn't want to admit the video at all they have no legal basis to admit the hearsay statements of their client he's not a party opponent for them um rule of completeness is not a trojan horse around hearsay there's a case that I cited to in our Motion in limony where it was a tax evasion case and the defendant said admitted to not paying taxes but said it was because the accountant has access to all the records the state admitted the first statement that he admitted and not paying and the defense was not allowed to get in the butt cuz it's self- serving here it's not even part of an interview I think from my stance I I thought about playing it cuz he's clearly putting on continuing the acting show um but it's 15 minutes of him sitting there and mumbling to himself and I think it's not a good use of our time so I'm not putting it in they have no authority to put it in it's hear say what is the authority Beyond completeness well I think that's what it is Judge it's um if they play a portion of the video I think the rule of completeness would allow me to play the rest of it to put it into context yeah what what's the context that's missing though the context that's missing is I don't believe Lieutenant Hart didn't tell Mr Mew that he was being recorded upon leaving he makes statements which support his defense okay he makes statements to himself not knowing he's recorded uh why would they attack me why would they attack me he said say that to himself um unbeknownst I I think that he's being recorded and I think if you're going to play portions of it which are according to the state would be considered incriminating the idea that the the video and its entirety should be played um in order to give the jury a complete and accurate record of in fact what he said the rule of completeness is meant to prevent Distortion so an example where the rule of completeness would perfectly apply is if say there's a bank robbery defendant says yeah I was at the bank but that was a month before if we just admitted yeah I was at the bank and then argued oh he's admitting to being at the scene rule of completeness would allow the rest of the statement because otherwise we're clearly distorting his statement so nothing about this implicates the rule of completeness all right this time I'm going to rule that the state is not obligated to play the entire video it's part of the the state's case the state is entitled to play the portions it believes uh support its uh case and uh the state is under no legal obligation to play the entire video um I disagree that the rule of completeness applies in this circumstance uh my understanding of the rule of completeness is to prevent words from being taken out of context similar to the example that Mr Anderson gave it doesn't mean that if you play part of a video you have to play all of the video and clearly Mr uh Muse uh statements to himself uh are hearsay and would otherwise be inadmissible if offered by uh Mr Mew uh so that's my ruling uh if the circumstances uh require revisiting that ruling uh we may anything else um I didn't hear anything from defense that they're not going to be asking Lieutenant Hart's interpretation of the video she also hadn't seen the video at the time of the interview inter she testified at the preliminary examination she provided a statement under oath um and I think if she denies certain things I should be able to impeach her with that and I think the area that the state doesn't want me to get into is when Lieutenant Hart says he's surrounded on all sides he has no route of Escape they want that because it affects the retreat instruction and she testified to the under oath that that in fact was true how was it relevant though how is how is Lieutenant Hart's conclusions and observations from watching the video relevant because it goes to what a reasonable person believed well I don't mean to be flipping here but she's not the reasonable person standard it's it's more objective than that than what Lieutenant har thinks it's more it's broader than what Lieutenant Hart thinks right but I think that her her observations that he had no that he had no means of escape the state's going to argue that he had that he could have left AR walked away I I understand he can argue it but one of their investigators is saying that's not true he didn't have a means of Escape once the attack started which is where the retreat instruction kicks in she testified under oath at a preliminary examination the crowd worked his their way behind him I asked her so would you agree at that point there was no means of of leaving and she said yes that's true again I'm ruling that to be inadmissible and this is a a ruling that I've made with all of the witnesses and that is we're not commenting on what the witness observes in the video uh we're not taking a poll of witnesses to get their opinions and their conclusions about what they see and what they think happened um Lieutenant Hart was not a participant she played no role in the events on the Apple River uh she is an observer of the video uh just like anybody else in this courtroom just like anybody sitting on the jury and it is the jury's opinion about what they see that matters not what Lieutenant Hart thinks or what I think or what some other witness thinks they see in the video uh so that's why I don't think it's relevant and that's why I've U not allowed the witnesses to ask or the attorneys to ask witnesses to comment on what they think and conclude based on observations in the video anything else no Mr tropy uh we're not going to try to move any uh transcript correct I I don't we weren't planning on it but I guess it depends on how it goes wait it's an inaccurate transcript with 10 minutes cut out of the video the one that we received so I would object to the transcript being provided okay so that's noted if we um get to that point we'll have to take it up outside the presence of the jury all right let's bring them in I'll address the exhibit when they come in thank you all rise for the jury please be seated all right we're back in session uh with the attorney Mr Mew and 14 jurors um members of the jury we took our break before all of you looked at the exhibit number 24 it's there on the rail uh if you want to continue passing it amongst yourselves you may uh once you are finished once everyone has seen it and you're finished with the exhibit um just turn it upside down place it on the rail or place it on the floor uh so that we know that you're done uh Mr smad who is the next Witness call Lieutenant har Lieutenant please come forward please face the clerk raise your right hand and be sworn do you s the testimony this matter shall be the truth the whole truth the nothing but the truth shall I please have a seat in the witness chair Mr smad you state your name for the record please yes Brandy Hart HRT and what's your occupation I am the special services Lieutenant for the St C County Sheriff's office uh what are your general duties as a special services Lieutenant I supervise um our nine investigators our seven uh deputies and court services in the evidence room um how many years have you been with the SR County Sheriff's Office 25 um what roles have you held over those years um I started in the jail um I worked there for three years I went to patrol for 6 years um after that I was promoted to investigations or I spent 14 years before I became a lieutenant how many years have you been a lieutenant uh two and a half do you recall um July 30th 2022 I do were you on duty that day no did you get called in I did um in your current role would you normally be involved in an investigation of this sort yes um did you get contacted uh regarding the stabbings on the Alpa river that day I did and what was the information you were initially told um investigator schilz called me um and told me that there had been multiple stabbings on the Apper River um were you at home at the time I was I was doing yard work um did you get asked to come in yes were you given any specific duties or assignments um at that point we were just looking for Manpower the suspect hadn't been located and we were going to formulate a plan what did you do what was your part in the investigation um I got to the Apple River about an hour after the first call came in um and at that point uh Mr Mew had been taken into custody and his group had was standing along the end of the river all right um what did you do when you got to the river um I believe I um spoke with some of my colleagues and then I ended up um taking Sandy Mew to the somerset Police Department to interview her all right and did you interview Sandy I did um what did you do after that um after that I coordinated her getting back with her group some of them had come to the police department um and because all the other investigators were interviewing Witnesses uh I went to the jail were you asked to do anything specific at the jail I interviewed Mr mu um was that interview recorded it was how was it recorded um audio and video were you a body cam or is there some other system um I have a recording device on on my cell phone and so I recorded the audio version that way and then there's an overhead camera at the jail that recorded the video do you remember what time it was that you interviewed uh Mr M at the jail yeah it was about 10: to 8 p.m. yes um at at that point had you seen Jawan cockfields video of what happened on the river I had not did you know there was a video I did did Mr Mew know that objection speculation sustain did you ever prior to your interview with him did you tell him there was a video of the incident I did not and have you you reviewed exhibit 15 I did you tell us what it is yeah it's a copy of my interview with Mr mu at the jail is it recorded on a specific kind of device yes it's on a thumb drive all right you're honor permission to publish exhibit 15 to the jury on the U digital system any objection to 15 no all right 15 is received for for for [Music] hi there are you Nick yeah hi Nick my name is Brandy hi I'm a lieutenant with the St C County Sheriff's Office okay um you got some water right than okay thank you have you had anything to eat no okay let me uh can I will wait for now food are you sure I'm not hungry okay well if you get hungry yeah just let these guys know okay or let me know when I can um very very thirsty yeah I bet on the river drinking beer all day and not drinking any water and it hot and being in the sun all day doesn't matter if you're drinking beer sometimes just uh and then this yeah so I would imagine you have some questions for me um I am just going to go through the right form and you know let you know if you want to answer any of my questions we'll talk about that um I'm going to record our conversation if you're okay with that of course um let's see today is the 30th of July and it is 7503 p.m.

[01:30:28]how do you spell your first name n i c o l a e okay and last name and no middle name no middle name okay and what's your last name m IU how do you spell how do you pronounce that me okay and what's your birthday do you like to be called Nikolai or Nick or what Nick okay yeah um December 11th 1969 okay so that makes you 52 52 thank you what's your address Nick 5945 Hidden Oaks Circle South East holy cats that's a m Hidden Oak Circle I don't even know if I have enough space in theast southeast oh Southeast thank you forting no problem and that's Prior Lake Prior Lake okay what's is it code in Prior Lake 55372 okay and how about a phone number for you next 612 735 6317 6317 and I understand you're married to Sandy right okay um is she okay she is yeah she I did talk to her I talked to her for quite a while um I brought her to get dry clothes where is she um she is with Ernesto and Amy okay good they're taking good care of and then uh TI my puppy uh she's headed home to take care of the dog okay um and she's also with uh Ariel and uh his girlfriend oh God I don't even know is it Tatiana no Tatiana Tatiana is another girl okay but she's hold on they gave me yes oh Sandy didn't know Ariel's girlfriend's name neither okay but ano and Amy came to to where I was with Sandy and they went got the car but I had brought Sandy to the car to get she was driving right no she was up with me I brought her from the river to the car so she could get clothes and we brought the cooler back and put that in the car um so she's got all the stuff all right are you working anywhere now M okay where do you work I work at reach engineering as a mechanical engineer and what what kind of engineering what mechanical engineer yeah what's the name of your employer oh REI r i t c h i e [Music] engineering ining 55427 I think it is okay what was the last day that you completed I have a bachelor's and I have actually two degrees one in engineering one in mathematics wow and I'm I GL away from a master in both I'm notan never run never had a run uh with a lot ex when I got the we we'll go that um so where did you get your uh degrees from your undergraduate state univers that the Bison no the J grabit okay Brooking um and how about your master's degree where are you working on I'm not I'm not working on it yet okay yeah I did pass the EIT so I could work for the state as a license engineer but I haven't had a chance to do that for many years I worked as a contractor Contracting engineer then for the past 16 years I've been working with uh Richie engineering where I met Sandy okay what uh what does Richie engineering do like what do they manufacture what do we do we do uh hbac service equipment okay basically we're the the top tier of hbh were like the top brand uh and top brand for that is yellow jacket okay and is that for the part the the brand of the yeah yeah everything we we make there we make it under the Yellow Jacket brand got it but the company uh name is Richi engineering okay so what I do I do everything from hoses recovery machines all the electronics I talk to customers I uh get business I do the documentation the design it's a small company so I like to do everything testing evaluation um you name it 16 years over there and that's not even that's not even scratching the surface well I have bigger dreams now shattered but anyway I don't want to talk about them I know okay I don't know exactly what happened I just don't I I can't talk I I need to go one step at a time yep and if you have any questions along the way Nick just stop and ask me okay or if you need to take a break just how bad is it well can we get through this form and ask each other question I just I don't want to I want to maintain the Integrity of this investigation and your right and you know so I want to get through this form and then we can ask questions okay so I'm going to turn this around um I'll give you this pen what I'll have you do is I'm going to read each uh you you seem to speak excellent English you can read have the right which have not been read to me when I was put in the car is that right and that's okay as long as they weren't asking you any questions they don't need to but I'd like to ask these questions so that's why we're going to go through this right now okay so I'll let you have that pen and so I'm going to read these to you okay you have the right to remain silent or just uh uh you can check mark it or some people put their initials you know we'll have you signed at the bottom so that however you want to do that anything you say can be used against you in court or other proceedings MH you have the right to consult an attorney before making any statement or answering any question and you may have him or her present with you during questioning okay and also me I talk I was going to ask you about this one so yep how when do I see one when do I get one assigned to me you would get one assigned to you the the soonest uh would be on Monday oh so that would be the the soonest um and working hours working pretty much it's how that works okay so if you cannot afford to pay for attorney may be eligible to be represented by an attorney from The Office of the State public defender if you desire an attorney from that office you should contact their local office and and that information would be provided to me or yes um so what happens is uh they we actually the jail provides that information every day to the public Public Defender's Office like here's who's on the list so some people come into jail and they uh either have a lawyer already because of other things or they know a lawyer or they're going to find their own so these guys will let you use the phone if fact I will asky to look for me that's okay oh go yeah yeah cuz I don't I'm not going to see you in talk any no that's fine if you decide to answer questions now with or without an attorney you still have the right to stop stop the questioning at any time or stop the questioning for the purpose of Consulting an attorney yeah I'd like to do that at some point okay you can just check mark that we went over that however you may wave the right to remain silent and you may answer questions now without an attorney you can just check mark that I read that to you you're not agreeing to anything right now this is just that I that I stated these things to you so this say the above rights have been read to me I have initialed each paragraph or your case check mark to show that I understand each of my rights I have received a copy of this form so after sign you sign it and then I'm going to sign it Nick and then I'm going to give you a copy of it all right here and I've that 801 [Music] one all right okay I sorry do you want me to write it regular okay no I get I get so caught up in uh used to that yeah my friends don't like it cuz in my vehicle my own vehicle that I drive it's military time and so they're always asking me I have is military cuz I came from Europe and they call it military but it's not military right it's the the proper time exactly well good at least then you know what it you know what it needs then when I put the time on there like that um so I would like to ask you questions about your day today what happened uh you know like how how you guys got to be on the Apple River today and then like what your day was like um it's up to you if you're willing to answer questions if you decide that yep I'll answer questions right now and in 10 minutes you don't want to answer anymore you just need to tell me that okay and if you don't want to answer questions right now then that fine too and I will leave it it's up to you all I can say it was a it was self-defense self-defense there are lots of people that came on to me self-defense and they produced two weapons one I took from them okay that's the only thing I can tell and they were they hit me and they were on top of me and that's I don't remember anything after that I just remember I ran away I ran away to my to my uh group there were actually people coming over from my group to see what was going on I said nothing nothing nothing just get back and and and they kept asking and I said nothing nothing I didn't explain to them anything because I I was I was so fearful I didn't know what these people will be doing to us I've never been in a situation like this where people produce weapons on and they were saying they were calling um don't I I don't remember but they said don't run don't don't run from us don't do this you're a child molester you are this and he said are you people drunk or you're child molester I said the only thing I remember is in my mind is if I'm a child molester should you be drinking should you be drinking alcohol and and doing what you're doing to people that you don't even know attacking them and I said if if I'm a child more Lester you should be having alcohol you know and and they took my I was snorkeling so they took my snorkel away they threw it in the water they grabbed my pants one wanted to put my pants down and I grabbed onto him and I don't know who that kid was but he produced he had a knife on on him and then there was another knife a longer knife looked like a kitchen knife um kitchen or something I don't know and I don't know what happened to either one of them I just know that I I when when when the kid attacked me I took that from him the kitchen knife or the other knife no the small the smaller knife okay what did that knife look like do you remember I don't even remember but it was smaller smaller yes so that's all how did you get to be by them or who are these people so adiel lost his phone okay phone was in a floater one of those bags everyone had one but his phone was in a floater so he says well let's go look for it so I put put my Sorel on and I looked and this guys found something and they were talking about it and I said this a group of people this group yeah I went over and I said did you guys find the phone and if you did can I see it can I identify it and they started calling me names they got off of their tubes they came at me like I said all I need and they were calling me all kinds of names insulting me for being in the water with with a snork up and I said all I want guys did you find a phone and I saw they had a they had found something all right and I don't know if there was a phone or something else they found but they wouldn't talk to me about what they found and we were looking thisly to find this phone and I know somebody found it but I thought it was that group okay you know and then they went over they they came to me and they they grabbed my snorkel and they threw it in the water well the water was so fast it went under so I went out after it and they started uh another group of mostly girls came over from from the other side yelling at me or calling me child molester and what something with uh something like that and I I went back I went I actually out there this incident I didn't even I didn't don't even know what happened I just know that they they attacked me and I had I was in selfdefense I went into selfdefense mode and then I went over to my my group of people that was it and they asked me what happened and I wouldn't tell I said I can't tell you let me calm down okay I was I was shocked so nobody on that knew exactly what happened the only thing they said said well you look somebody got in an argument over there like yep let's just let's just leave that don't don't go there are you able to draw for me like where you were looking for the phone like and where the where was anesto and Sandy and where was the school maybe it help me kind of understand yep these guys were here I don't know how many there were quite a few okay we were up up rer about about about 100 100 De were our group was here and so you guys were in the water yes okay so we were in the water then there was another group of people over here that came to to attack me so there was this group of people here this group of people that attack me they attack me here so you're you're you're group was floating down the river like this they actually were stopped but yes this is the that's the direction you were going okay so your group is stopped yeah and where's where who's looking for the phone besides you like how do you know the phone's missing oh yeah we talked about it I love my phone and said well you didn't lose it it's floating down it's in that bag yeah so let's go find it you know and he was over here pouching that he lost his phone and I said that's okay I have my snorkeling GE and then I heard this guy said that on something and when I was sorling down I I passed them I kept looking and then I came up I came looking and then they started yelling and screaming and and I said did you guys find something and I thought they did and I I I know they did because they were hiding something from me when and then I went over there and they grabbed my snow they threw it down they they started they got off their their tubes they came after me they pushed me one of them hit me and then there was a girl that came from here and hit me in the back of my head and I was about right there he said right here when she hit me yeah and that's when the the female hit you yeah and she was coming from another group over here I don't know how many people were in there were these guys stopped uh yes in very shallow water okay so it's really shallow over here shallow there pretty much the two sides are shall are shallow yeah was it what how deep do you think it was when you were like snorkeling around looking four or five ft okay not very deep and the water was very mky so I could not see anything my goggles but those goggles are lost they took them grabbed them off my face and threw them in the water we found the B oh good thank you and the s yes yes yep are they connected yes oh okay yes and they're just like regular SN goggles right yeah I had them over when I went to to the Caribbean okay what do they look like just to make sure we have the right on well transparent plastic with the white snorkel okay all right is that it I think I think we have them um was there any did it seem like these groups were together after they came after me I don't know I think yes okay yes I think so I mean I feared for my life tell you the truth when they started hitting me and and and and pointed a knife at me and then another kid pointed a knife I thought that was it for me luckily I took it from from the one of the young kids and I think that's when I swung back what did you do with it I don't even know okay I don't know absolutely I don't know I don't know if you got it back I have absolutely no idea did you hit him like did did the knife make contact with him that I don't remember you were so close and one had it in his hand so I took his hand and I bent it and I poked him with with his own hand and then I I took it from his hand and then I I went and swing like this so I don't know who I hit I just know I just know that I took the knife from from one of the kids the other one I don't know what happened to it I I didn't get hit cuz I as soon as this happened I started running across so I went across to to my group and then my group was wondering more what just happened and I didn't I didn't want to tell him anything just cuz he didn't want to I didn't want to get the anybody around I didn't want my group to go say well we're going to go talk to those kids no they were too drunk I believe they're too drunk and to to set on on on uh going after people I think how did what were these guys doing did they know did they know anything was going on no didn't know you were getting punched or well they saw the scuffle because at one point uh anesto was was coming towards me like hey man did you find anything anything and I said no I didn't I don't know these guys must have it or something I don't know I and and he says okay well he will just get another phone on Monday you were concerned about getting the phone and like okay so what are you doing is I don't know I'm just going to go relate this [ __ ] in my my my my I think and then Sandy said okay are you okay and said I don't want to talk about it you know and then they asked me hey what do you want to do you want to stay here you want to go down and I said I want to go down and then some girls from my group heard that uh something was happening over here and they said well we're calling the police and I think they called the police okay one or two I don't know did you see any of of that what was going on when they decided to call the no okay um did you have a knife no no absolutely okay I had one earlier that I used to cut but right at the beginning and I left it on on the in the I I don't even know what I did with it I think I either gave it to one of the people or I put it back in my truck okay yeah so it may have been I I don't I tell you the truth I don't even know and that was after you cut the string yeah we needed to have a something to cut the string over there they don't have any knives so but you have them with you today right the what a knif to cut how did that I think it's in my car okay yeah I think did you drive or did Sandy Drive I did okay yeah okay um I I don't even know uh where it's at the little the truth uh it may be in one of the bags we had with us it may have been in in um I I don't know if maybe I left it put it back in the car cuz I went back with a bunch of I had R uh uh straps I didn't want to pay for string but they say string is cheap well if I don't want you to have straps they told me they said yeah if you have straps there was a kid over there if you have straps no problem but the the the string is free so I said okay I'll take the string you know and then I took the straps back so CU straps can puncture the yeah so I took I had a whole bag of straps that I took back to my car okay and so maybe the knife was with the strap uh probably um did do you have any Cuts or marks on you have you had a chance to like look at your torso or somebody was telling me that I'm bleeding from my ear from my left ear who told you that oh think it was ping if could make you're bleeding from your left ear I want I F I went in the water I cleaned and I don't see any blood you know and I I really I don't know if you see any Cuts but I I don't yeah so I don't know where the why I was bleeding from my ear um but a saw blood I think she says you're bleeding from your ear Nick and then I cleaned and I said look there is not nothing oh okay okay yeah yeah I don't know if it was blood or if it was Weeds she saw I have no idea we were like she was on the other side and I was just yeah so she's over here right she's over here yeah right here oh so she's closest G is over here closest to the store yeah okay with them right here and I was over here somewhere in one of these okay and you got back in that tube then when I was back in my own okay [Music] um did did Ernesto come and get you no like did anybody know that you were getting punched or no no was anybody they wanted to talk to talk to me about the phone if I found the phone and what did those guys say and I said they probably did they don't want to give it up they're they attack me and that's it and then I said let's go I don't want to be yeah so they don't know what happened here you didn't tell anybody no okay you're the first one to know okay that's why probably Amy and everybody else is so surprised well they're worried about you yeah I mean and they and even an was like I don't know how the hell this happened he he they don't know anything cuz I didn't I didn't know what to tell tell them I really don't know everything happened so fast I I really don't remember why why they attacked me I don't know why they took my SN snor away I don't know why one of them wanted to P pull my pant down I don't know why they were being so mean I just don't know I just don't know and why did they want to scare me with with a knife I just don't know why they're they're scaring people on the river it's a family oriented River with with knives and and and you know what they did so was it two males that had knives I saw males yeah yeah and were they both from this group or do you even even know well that I don't know one of them was from this group the one that I took the smaller knife from I think was from this group okay so you took the smaller knife from one of them um and is that the one that you said that you kind of went yes uh basically like oh I was I was I was going like this I want it I want it out you were coming and they punching me and they they were circling me and they came really close they were pushing me in the water and I just grabbed the kids knife I didn't even know if I was holding it right I just grabbed it from him because he tried to poke me with it so I feared for my life it sounds like I was very shocked I was extremely shocked I couldn't even say anything to anybody I had locked jaw I don't know right now I don't even know how this happened how I got away from all that so when they were pushing you in the water did you go underwater or did you standing no I tripped I tripped and I fell in the water a couple of times yes um where on your body did they hit you in the back of my my my back and I know one of the girls came over and splat me right over my right ear I couldn't even see what they were doing because I was I was tripping tripping over the stones and I was falling down and they were just jumping on you I'm going to show you a picture and see if you I was fearing for my life I'm still fearful that they're going to find out who I am and go do something to to to Sandy and possibly some of these people over here I fear that somehow they're going to find out who I am and continue their whatever that was and I don't know why they're so hateful and I I just don't get it I mean this is the second time I come to the river the first time for my wife and I promised there it was going to be a beautiful outing and nothing to fear we had a lot of Boos she didn't drink she was the designated dver but most of us did there there was another girl that didn't drink on the other party because they wanted to drive home we ate well we had music everything was so good so good so good of course I had a lot of alcohol who does you know we well you had a Silber ride yeah yeah and I don't smell it on you were you drinking beer or Voda or what we don't do hardle because then we dehydrate too fast and we get cramps okay so after my quadruple B pass I still have cramps oh yay qu bypass how long ago was that a year and a half ago wow yeah so if you see any wires in my chest in my sternum that's from the white really you have a pemer in there too or anything no m i I tell you the truth I'm I'm scared because I'm not in the best of health okay I'm just going down the river probably should not have even drink or drank that much beer but the doctor never said don't drink sure you know especially beer you can have as much as you want in moderation I was in cold water y you know so but you know yeah and then niching then here and then from my leg that's what they used to yeah got take take it here take it from here cut it in half that's two the same thing from my uh leg cut it in half used the other two so it's quadruple byp wow yeah I was dead this my heart stopped 5 hours wow have you had a heart attack that prompted that okay yeah Yik so I was in pretty bad shape with sound like it yeah I bet Sandy was pretty scared she was because I was in the hospital for quite some time at Methodist hospital but they did a great job you know and Methodist Hospital is probably one of the best hospitals for heart heard surgeries if you know somebody I'll Point them to Method yeah my father-in-law had had heart surgery there too he had a heart attack a few years ago and that's so yeah um do you need some more no that's are you sure I got an extra fresh bottle here so you want it yes I can't travel without it's brand new too I didn't drink thank you I probably am going to drink out of it now so you can have that and this is going to be my really appreciate it yeah I take a medication that makes me really really thirsty so I have bottles of water rolling around in my back seat I've got them in the door pocket supposed to take mine but they're at home and I don't know when I'm going to take them okay so you have medication that you need oh yeah okay five medication um cuz I can call Sandy and see uh oh I'm not going to have her drive over here well I might be able to S somebody to go get them oh just so that they get back here and I mean know she's so shaken right now she is probably yeah well we need we need to make sure you have your medication yeah yeah yeah but I like I said I wouldn't have her drive yeah yep I might be able to send somebody there to get them what medications do you take Nick oh my God are they all heart related or some different things two of them are heart related okay yeah one is aspirin that's heart related right yeah y [Music] um oh um potassium because I'm getting a lots of muscle plants okay that's four there's one there's another [Music] one I'll daily when okay no worries um were you on your phone at all during during your day today I know that Sandy didn't bring her phone I took some pictures okay then I put it away Sandy does not like to take a lot of pictures because then it get posted on Facebook or Instagram or something yeah but I'm okay if they take them they post them yeah I did take a few didn't have a chance to do anything with them okay yeah when I was not on the phone I didn't call anybody okay did you use your phone around the time no like right before you know you were looking for the phone or anything like that not me not like these guys are on their phones that's why uh ad lost his cuz he was on it too much people can't enjoy life now nowadays going down the river without being on their phones of course they take a lot to pictures but the picture is not the same experience as being there so I don't know um so do you think these the pictures that you took were like at the beginning of your journey or where do you think oh we did take uh I took a couple of group ones where they have that music uh place in the bathrooms okay we made a a stop there to eat [Music] sandwiches there were a lot of people over there that that uh Beach was completely full lots of people there lots of [Music] people it was a beautiful day in and this and this now will probably close that place down you think so yes well I don't know what what what what what resulted of it was I I don't know is this you yes okay who what do you think was happening at that time they they were fighting me they they pointed the knife at me they pointed the knife at me both boys pointed the knif at me okay did you see anyone take this picture of you no God no I was I was actually very very uh um scared I was very scared I didn't know what to think I didn't know what they're doing and why I mean I understand they're drunk but you get drunk I get drunk we all get drunk we don't do that kind of stuff especially on a family River like this family outing we don't do that kind of stuffff but I was very you see I was very very scared I didn't know what was going to happen next did you see the woman that hit you in the ear did you see her at all no I turned around she hit me again okay do you remember what her bathing suit looked like no she she was just yelling at me and calling me a a a child molester that's how it all started they kept calling me a child molester and know out of the blue and then they wanted to beat me up because they said I'm a child molester and then my argument back was to them was if I'm a child molester and you're children you shouldn't be drinking you should not be out here drinking okay and doing what you're doing where are your pants did they look like they were young I don't know I think they look pretty young to me I don't think they were of the age of uh drinking really yeah I I think I mean I don't I I don't know I don't hang out with with people like that my my generation and the people I hang out with are much older people likeo and likeo and Sandy and Amy yeah yeah Amy is probably one of the youngest on there sure 50 45 and Sandy is 61 yeah so I'm younger you know so you said that they were standing really close to you they were on top of me they were pushing me shoing me I tripped I fell down I got up and I that's where I saw the the one of the kids there was the closest kid with with the with the knife and I grabbed it from him and that was the the smaller yes and he was in front of you was he was he as close as we are oh he was closer he was closer he was closer but as soon as he came with the knife I grabbed the knife from him and what I did then I mean I shouldn't show you but I I grabbed twisted his uh uh arm and poked him with with with his own knife then then I took it from him and I started swinging okay so I SW I don't even know who I hit okay I don't know if if I hit the girl that hit me twice in the head from behind I don't know if I hit another kid I don't know they're just on top of me they're they're they chased me hitting me and yelling at me and calling me insulting me that's it okay so I don't know what night they had had I don't know I just saw two knives that's it the longer one and the shorter one okay and I don't know where they are I don't know who's got them I don't know um so what I'd like to do is I'd like to um get a sample of your DNA because I if if you knives don't belong to you mhm I would imagine your DNA is not going to be on them well I touched one of them yeah you touched the one you grabbed yeah from the kid yeah um would you would you be willing to give me a s okay yeah is that is that the good thing is I mean what I mean I don't know I don't have a lawyer over here to us yeah and certainly so um should I wait well I've got a colleague that's that's um in the process of writing a search warrant so we're going to get it one or another I just thought if I could ask you and we could just do it right now I'll like show you how to like what we would do I would just get sample yeah it's like a big Q-tip yeah um we'd also like to do an exam have a nurse examine your body that's absolutely okay okay and I want her to look in your ears and I want her to look at your back and um you know the people that are in these groups we're going to try to collect evidence from them cuz they might have your skin underneath their fingernails or you know we're going to our best to get any evidence to I mean we course yeah yeah I mean and and and I know everything that would happen in a river so well yeah there's that part of it too but um definitely okay yep yeah okay you can f me okay I just don't know if I had a lawyer pres what he or she would say well what I just want you to know that we would get it anyway I've got a coworker that's writing a search warrant if you get it anyway then let's do it okay okay with with the court order or just let's do it now and get it no no no let's do it now and and give you what you need okay to start your your proceedings or your search well and yeah I mean if you you sound like you were really afraid yeah I have I have a quadruple bypass I have been out of shape I have been in bed for for God for a long time for 6 months at least I couldn't go to work I'm not in the best I mean I was just floating down the river nothing much every once in a while got up so I could pee because I can't be in the in the in the tender you know shouldn't tell you that on camera but yes most people have to get off the the thing so I got out I would get up and then hold on and then get back in I mean I I don't do anything to to to stay in shape I just I'm a guy that wants to survive and work keep working at reach engineering you know and why these things happen I it's beyond me I mean I I I don't understand I mean why would they that many people come down on one person that didn't absolutely do anything take his goggles almost one wanted to put my pants down so I did your did your trunks have like a Dr so they didn't come down oh no no no no no no they came down a little bit but no cuz I have a draw string on it so yeah they they couldn't pull it down but why all of a sudden they were like wolves around me and they were they were attacking me from all directions and I I truly truly feared for my life I didn't know what to do I didn't I mean these guys are talking over there I didn't know what to say I didn't I I was I was just which guys are you talking my my my B my my guys so and they were quite a bit distance so they didn't see anything I don't think they saw anything and so when you go back to your tube do you guys get the hell out of there or do you like what do you do we stayed there okay yeah the girls called the cops we didn't know what to do um and we stayed there for a long time there were people coming we even saw the the sheriff coming and I I they kept saying oh my God they didn't know what happened so they said oh my God what happened there was a fight there was a fight and I said yeah I don't know what was going on after that I thought they were still fighting I personally when I came back I saw a whole bunch of people coming over there and yelling at each other and I thought they were still fighting for some reason I didn't know what was going on so I personally wanted to stay and watch to see if the cops get them for for fighting you know for whatever they so I wanted to be a witness to them fighting or if they the cops needed a witness I wanted to sit there for as long as possible and then the group said well there's so many people they're I don't know let's just get going we don't want to get involved in nothing I was just in there they attacked me yeah but look at them now they're attacking each other I don't know what they're doing so cops came and we stayed there for I don't know another 10 15 minutes with when the police were there yeah okay yeah yeah and then we decided we'll go nobody asked me anything and I should get my mouth shut I am down the river we went okay so I was very shocked I I didn't know what what just happened we tell you the truth well Sandy said that you were quiet I was very quiet and you didn't really talk didn't want I didn't know what to say yeah I mean I get my excuse my French my ass get by a whole bunch of kids what am I going to say I just got my ass kick by this kid now the police is on of them well I think something is going to come out of it so I thought the police was there because they were fighting you know because this were just boys and they were being obnoxious not not only picking on me then these girls came over and hit me so these are girls over here well mostly mostly okay and this was all guys yeah I didn't know who was in this group but I know these were old guys because I I was I came I was noring back in 4 and I asked them if they found something and they said well you know they started calling me a molested and I got up and one of them took my my goggles threw them in the river I went after them one of them wanted to put my pants down and there you go so what happened can you tell me what happened yeah um four people went to the hospital with injuries oh my God and uh one person died oh no I don't know any of their names and I don't know any genders so I don't know was that because they fought each other or is that I know I don't know I don't know what their injuries are I I just I was with Sandy the whole time and then when I kind of turned Sandy over to arnesto and Amy then I came here so I I have no idea what injuries were oh my God oh my God oh my God so we just need to be able to like piece this together you know in your statement what other pictures did they give you or me just that one that's the only one I have they didn't take they had lots of cameras you should take their cameras yes and so I have colleagues yeah investigators that are that are talking to all of those you know the the people in the group and the other Witnesses so yes we are we are trying to collect and I told anesto and e um cuz they said that Rosie pictures okay but I don't think she took any pictures of those guys that was oh at the at the stop at the stop up here yes but you were you were snorkling they might have been like taking something you could have gotten you could get these guys in the background that they don't even realize they have it you know what I mean I see what you mean so I asked them to go through their photos bect got it got it I was all of a sudden you say that like what would they take pi pict of me going over there no you just never know what you're getting a picture if you're if they're sitting here waiting for you and and uh El to find the phone did you did you find his phone um I don't know again I was I've been with Sandy pretty much the whole time and now I came here with you so I do know I I I did get a message that the goggles and snorkel were found um so that's all the information that I have about like items that were located now my whole life is down the tubs well I don't I don't know if that's the case because people have the right to defend themselves I know but this is oh this is Wisconsin this is Wisconsin okay you continue on I I I I usually know that people that that defend themselves they end up being accused of being this and being that well I think if You' ask me what I would have done I don't know yeah you don't know I don't know I would have been scared shitless I can tell you that that many people yeah try to pull your pants down and hit you and yeah and to two boys had knives on them they didn't find any of those two knives I I don't know I don't know but we're looking and you know I we're looking before it get dark out um right now I'm glad I actually took that kid knif he would have stabbed me he was not there to scare me he was there to harm me least I'm I'm here but I'm sorry for what what it how it ended up feel scared like I said I'm scared that they're going to be finding out where I live and they're going to be hunting us at night and they're going to be hurting my wife well I will call Sandy s that weer okay and just check in on her uh find out about your medications have you had any medicine this morning no I take them in the evening okay take them in the evening what what would happen if you don't take them tonight nothing I don't I'm not even hungry to okay but if you don't take your medication tonight is that life-threatening I don't think so I mean granted what happened today you know I was shocked yeah but I don't know I don't think so I just can't believe what happened you know they need they need to maybe do sobriety test on miners on that River maybe they need to put an end to drinking uh underage drinking and doing drugs the the that River over there is is turned into a sewer my second time and I have dragged my wife out of there pretty much against her will I promised her it was going to be the best day I make promises promises we're going to have a great time with this she didn't want to go no she always says all places like this all they do is smoke pot and do this yes there was a lot of pot smoking over there we don't know who's legal who's illegal I don't know anything about Wisconsin laws but you can smell it it was everywhere in the air and I don't know what people do cuz you do the DNA you could find out you know what type of drugs are in my system I never done any of that stuff so I don't know I'm very clean as clean as they go you looked at my criminal record you can keep digging there is nothing there because I don't have anything not even on a parking ticket not a speeding ticket you know M as a law abiding citizen as they come but I fear for my life too I mean I went through a a very serious surgery absolutely to be alive to be KN down by a bunch of kids on the river yeah I I understand and I'm not blaming the police it's it's a I believe that's a private land they have to have their own security there and they need to do better um so what I'm going to do is I'm just going to rub these along your lower gum line and kind of inside your cheek I'm going to do them both at the same time it shouldn't hurt at all if it does let me know I'm going to put them in this box and then I'm going to seal this bag while we're sitting here so you see that I that I sealed it okay so I'll just have you open up your mouth let's see here shouldn't like I said shouldn't hurt all right and you're okay with having the nurse do the exam on you take any pictures if you L on the body you're okay with that yeah this actually are from direct from trying to get out of the the okay the tubes in shallow water okay you know I had a hard time trying to stop the the Trin yeah can I just I'm G to I know the nurse will too but I like can I can I take a picture of it yes okay but this was not from the confrontation oh this wasn't no oh I'm sorry I misunderstood that no these are from scrapes on the river botom when I was when you were SN I got you okay perfect yeah please don't use that yeah I didn't touch those kids I did not I did nothing no no no okay I'm going to go call I'm going to seal this up cuz I told you I was going to do that and then I'm going to go call the person that um has the nurse kind of on standby so that we can um get that taken care of um I'm also going to give Sandy a holler oh look at that the tape just oh a love is this good well I didn't like it cuz it's all and it's not going to be big enough to do what I need to do here so we'll try it again wor case scenario I can always bring it to my office next door and and do it in the evidence room but I'm going to try to take care of it here probably dries up when it dries up it's probably well and then it's real sticky and it's real finicky so if you get it stuck on something it's you know it's meant to not uh C so get ripped on my finger so fast okay um so I'm going to go call my supervisor who had been in contact with the nurse um and just let them know that we're going to be that um and then I will be I will be back do you have any questions now do to you need to go all right I can have I can make sure that happens um I'm just going to write your name on here so that J is 73022 and my you Yep this is that means no middle initial oh did I spell it wrong it's Mi y I did it's m IU there we go okay that's yours I will be back in a minute in the meantime I'll have one of the jail staff bring in the bathroom and are you still doing okay and do you need how's your water there I have for now going through all right right back thank you so much can the restro was that the interview you did with jail yes yes while you were talking to him you showed Mr mu a photo on your phone yes what was that photo that was a photo that had been disseminated to us of the suspect you know where it came from um at the time did you know where it came from Pro probably I believe dispatch had emailed it out um was it was it a photo from the video or from something else sustained you know where the the the photo originated from I do where did it originate from Jaan cockfields video did that while you're talking to Mr me you were referring to a diagram yeah I approach yes Lieutenant Hart I'm showing you what's been marked as exibit 16 recognize that I do and what is it uh this is the diagram that I asked him to draw me while we were talking did he draw portions of that he drew all of it I um made I put the words on there all rightor I move for admission of exhibit 16 any objection 16 is received if I can publish to the jury on the ELO yes you may while you're standing there would you also retrieve the um exhibit 24 thank you and just to clarify is the only thing you added the words on the diagram yes he put the 100 ft or inches um but I wrote Amy the mostly girls shallow all males and female and then that is my handwriting on the lower uh right hand portion where I put the date and our agency case number also in the video you appeared to be taking a a buckle swab yes um did you do anything with those swabs I locked the evidence at the Sheriff's Office were those the swabs that were sent to Crime Lab no which swaps were said to the crime though the one in the kit that the sers had taken while you're speaking with Mr Mew did you notice any signs of impairment no that's it nothing else nothing further anyone need a break still doing good right one vote for break all right let's take a short recess then uh we'll come back at 10:25 all right here's thank you thank you and good morning from our fox9 streaming Center I am Paul Bloom you've been watching our gab to gav coverage of the Apple River stabbing trial in Hudson Wisconsin we've hit 10:15 the judge taking a quick break a lot to unpack there as we've now just watched uh by Mike count just under an hour a jail house interrogation with Nikolai Miu Lieutenant Brandy Hart um much of that quoted in the criminal complaint uh that the district attorney filed against Miu in the immediate aftermath of the deadly stabbing charging Mr Miu with one count of intentional first-degree homicide four counts of excuse me one count of intentional homicide four counts of attempted homicide I do want to get some assistance in dissecting what we just saw with local criminal defense attorney Eric Nelson Eric is joining us the reason why we really appreciate having Eric on about a decade ago Eric had a similar uh self-defense uh deadly murder claim that uh uh he won successfully uh his client acquitted at that point a decade ago Levi acre Kendall um obviously not uh completely similar circumstances but something close so with given the charges and and the nature and the riverfront confrontation Eric thank you so much for joining us I know you were in and out of court this morning so you haven't seen all of all of that interrogation so let me get you caught up first because I want your opinion on the rights that were asserted at the beginning of this interrogation the defense had tried to get this whole entire interview tossed out saying their client wanted a lawyer and wasn't granted one I want to play you the critical portion and come back to you and get your take on it well I have bigger dreams now shattered but anyway I don't want to talk about him right now okay I don't know exactly what happened I just don't I I can't talk I I need to go one step at a time yep and if you have any questions along the way Nick just stop and ask ask me okay or if you need to take a break just how bad is it well can we get through this form and ask each other question I just I don't want to I want to maintain the Integrity of this investigation and your rights and you know so I want to get through this form and then we can ask questions okay so I'm going to turn this around um I'll give you this pen what I'll have you do is I'm going to read each uh you you seem to speak excellent English you can read yeah Miranda Miranda Right which have not been read to me when I was put in the car that and that's okay as long as they weren't asking you any questions they don't need to but I'd like to ask these questions so that's why we're going to go through this right now okay so I'll let you have that pen and so I'm going to read these to you okay you have the right to remain silent or just be uh you can check mark it or some people put their initials you know we'll have you signed at the bottom so that however you want to do that anything say can be used against you in court or other proceedings M you have the right to consult an attorney before making any state or answering any question and you may have him or her present with you during questioning okay and also I I was going to ask you about this one so yep how when do I see one when do I give one assigned to me you would get one assigned to you the the soonest uh would be on Monday oh so that would be the the soonest um and working hours working pretty much is how that works okay so if you cannot afford to pay for an attorney you may be eligible to be represented by an attorney from The Office of the State public defender if you desire an attorney from that office you should contact their local office and and that information will be provided to me or yes um so what happens is uh they we actually the jail provides that information every day to the public defender's office like here's who's on the list so some people come into jail and they uh either have a lawyer already because of other things or they know a lawyer or they're going to find their own so these guys will let you use the phone if that's if how do it for me that's okay oh gosh yeah yeah absolutely CU I don't I'm not going to see you in talk any no that's fine if you decide to answer questions now with or without an attorney you still have the right to stop the questioning at any time or stop the questioning for the purpose of Consulting an attorney yeah I'd like to do it that at some point okay you can just check mark that we went over that however you may wave the right to remain silent and you may answer questions now without an attorney you can just check mark that I read that to you you're not agreeing to anything right now this is just that I that I stated these things to you so this says the above rights have been read to me I have initial each paragraph or your case check mark to show that I understand each of my rights I have received a copy of this form so you sign it and then I'm going to sign it Nick and then I'm going to give you a copy of it all right you heard it right there Eric when do I get the scene attorney when do I get one assigned uh he's told during working hours this is a weekend he expects it maybe Monday morning and then he tells a lieutenant there I'd like to do that meaning meet with an attorney at some point uh just again your quick reaction to everything you just saw there yeah I mean anytime someone requests an attorney uh or makes any sort of equivocal request for an attorney the police have an obligation to clarify and determine whether they want that attorney now or what their intentions are um I think that in this particular Cas case it's a pretty close call uh here in this situation you had him say he wants to speak to an attorney at some point when a person makes an unequivocal I want a lawyer type of statement then all questioning has to cease at this point it doesn't appear that Mr Mew made such a a demand or an unequivocal request for a lawyer there's some Heming and hawing uh I'll do it in the future uh and it also sounds like he received a little bit of bad information from uh the detective or the lieutenant in this case because there are lawyers on call and available even from the state public defender office all day long every day how damaging is this is this uh the lies the storytelling is it repairable once he takes the stand and we it could happen as soon as this afternoon he could be up next we expect to state to rest but is this repairable testimony or is he sunk no I I mean this this highlights a couple of things number one it highlights the absolute importance of the video that was uh has been played and dissected and uh you know broken down into individual frames uh so it's going to highlight the importance of that but his testimony is going to be 100% critical uh the the lawyers his lawyers have done an excellent job kind of setting up the setting up the defense and dismantling some of the claims using the video this is a big blow to them the lies are a big blow his testimony is going to be absolutely critical uh to kind of explain what is going on in his mind at that point and to explain why he lied that's going to be equally as important what he what was going through again the law in Wisconsin clearly indicates that at the time the defense you know the the use of force occurs you have to look at it from his perspective in that moment and that's the critical piece so he's going to be able to add that he's already made some statements such as you know he feared for his life but he's going to have to address these lies and the jury's going to have to get past it using that video kind of as we talked about on day one which is you know the video will go a long way to excuse some of the inconsistencies not only in you know the the other Witnesses and the victim State accounts but also in his account he's going to have to take ownership of that let me go back to a moment in that interrogation Eric he's asked did you have a knife and says no let's listen I'll get your uh response on the back end okay um did you have a knife with you no no absolutely I had one earlier that I used to cut but right at the beginning and I left it on on the in the I I don't even know what what I did with it I think I either gave it to one of the people or I put it back in my truck okay yeah so it may have been I I don't I tell you the truth I don't even know and that was after you cut the string yeah we needed to have a something to cut the Str over there they don't have any nuts so but you had one with you today right the what a nice to cut how did that I think it's in my car okay yeah I think did you drive or did Sandy Drive I did okay yeah okay um I I don't even know uh where it at that tell you the truth uh it may be in one of the bags we had with us it may have been in in um I don't know maybe I left it put it back in the car cuz I went back with a bunch of I had uh uh straps I didn't want to pay for stram and again Eric you there listening to uh the recorded test interrogation of Nikolai Miu July 30 2022 just a few hours later he at this point does not know anybody is dead he does not know there's video or photographs of him on that River you hear him say I didn't have a knife maybe I left it back in the car maybe in a bag I had it earlier today but certainly not in the moment of the attack um unfortunately I'm not even going to get to my question because judge Waterman is back on the bench will you stick around come back at lunch and we'll uh we'll have you dissect some of more of this interrogation with us at that point Thank you and in the meantime we'll get back into court for the cross examination now of Lieutenant Brandy Hart please be seated all right we were about to start cross correct cross uh Mr TR good morning Lieutenant morning uh in your 25 years in law enforcement I is it fair to say that you've had the opportunity uh numerous times to question both both victims of crimes and people accused of crimes yes and in this particular case if I have it right the interview with Mr Mew takes place approximately four little more than four hours after the incident is that fair yeah and um to your knowledge for most of those four hours he was in the majority of those four hours he was in police custody somewhere right I believe so okay and in situations like this where they call you in which would be considered a that be considered a serious situation when you get called in yeah okay and in those situations you're trying to gather as much evidence and as much information as quickly as possible is that correct yes okay and in your 25 years in law en ment have you been involved in situations that you would consider to be highly stressful events yes would you consider this to be a highly stressful event yes and would you agree that in those highly stress have you interviewed victims of offenses and people who are accused of offenses involving highly stressful events yes and in those highly stressful events both the victim and the accused can be feeling kind of the same emotions sometimes is that right sure okay and would you agree in your training and experience that highly stressful events can impact someone's ability to recall what had happened yes both for the complaining witness or victim as well as the person who's accused would that be fair fa and you'd agree that doesn't mean that the person is NE necessarily lying sometimes these stressful events kind of cloud memories and make it difficult for them to recall events correct speculation over I think you said yes yes um and would you agree that based on your training and experience how long someone suffers from a stressful event meaning how they react to it that can depend upon I mean it can differ in terms of timing right what I mean by that is you might suffer the same stressful event as I suffer you might be over that stressful event in a much shorter time than I would be over it is that fair yes and because it's a it's a criminal investigation and you're working at a at a quick Pace here you're not given the opportunity to kind of let things calm down before you do your investigation right I don't I don't know if I understand your question okay so let me give you an example so in an example if this fact pattern involved an officer that officer would have an opportunity before they had to give a statement correct officers don't have to give statements immediately after stressful events they're allowed to kind of calm down and think about it before they're required to provide a statement true objection irrelevant that's a statement did you give or was Mr Mew given an opportunity um in terms of timing to calm down from the situation kind of make sure that he had all his faculties before he provided a statement I don't know other than the 4 hours between the time he was taking into custody and I spoke with him and those I'm not being critical of you here I'm asking you you're not you don't know whether or not those four hours he was still under the stress of the event right I don't know okay and I'm not going to ask you about what you saw in the video but what I'm going to ask you about is you're aware there's a video in the case right yes okay and when someone gives you a statement about what had happened it's helpful for you as an investigator to be able to go back to that video and kind of determine the accuracy of that person's statement right sure okay and while you're able to determine whether or not the person's statements are accurate um what the video really doesn't capture and what you need to try to figure out is what the person was feeling or what their beliefs were at the time correct I don't know if that's up for me to decide no but in terms of your investigation you'll ask people things like how did that make you feel when something was happening that you'll ask them questions about their emotions because their emotions might not be born out on a video true true and and they people will tell you I was afraid I was worried I was stressed they'll they'll make those statements to you when you ask those questions correct yeah yes okay and tell me if this is fair so you after conducting the interview with Mr Mew you've watched the video right the video of the incident video of the incident yes okay and you agree his statements regarding how he got the knife those are inaccurate correct yes okay and you did ask Mr Mew what his beliefs were or how he was feeling while all this was going on correct you remember that during the interview I guess I don't recall if I asked him how he was feeling but he articulated that to me okay he had mentioned to you how he was feeling true yes okay and would you agree that once you kind of get into the meat of the interview first thing out of Mr mw's mouth is that he was acting in self-defense right yes okay and he says that if I have it right three times in his first statement to you was it was self-defense yes okay and he told you in that first portion of the interview that they were hitting him right yes and that's true correct that's born out on the video yes the video sustain it sustained can I ask you this um although some of the things that Mr mu had talked to you about regarding um how he obtained the knife we agree that was incorrect um would you agree uh based on your interview with Mr Mew he never wavered in his claim it was self-defense correct correct he never wavered in his claim that he was fearful correct correct and he never wavered in his claim that he was attacked correct correct if I told you and I don't know if you've counted I counted approximately 20 times during that interview that he claimed it was self-defense he was fearful or they attacked him sounded about right yes okay and you've sat through I know you weren't here yesterday because you weren't feeling well but you've sat through the trial uh of every other witness other than when you weren't here right yes okay and you've listened time to times when Witnesses had to be corrected or shown something that turned out not to be true based on the video right yes okay okay um do you have any information through your investigation uh that contradicts Nick mw's belief that he was in fear during that incident I'm your honor come on up e objection sustained the objection is sustained um Lieutenant Hart in terms of what had happened that that day in your interview with Mr Mew okay the recorded interview we just watched he didn't make any other statements to you that would give you any reason to believe that he wasn't in fear correct objection you're on the same grounds over can you ask that again I don't [Music] know based on your interview with Mr M on the day in question right when you interviewed him on the t uh he told you he was in fear yes he did okay did he provide any other statements to you that would contradict that statement that he was in fear no um and to be fair he told you multiple times in that interview that he was in shock about what happened and didn't remember everything is that right correct okay and that based on your training and experience that wouldn't be unusual would it no okay you've had that with other people who have been complaining Witnesses or victims of offenses yes and have you had that with people who have been accused of crimes probably okay um tell if if you can answer this so he never denied that he defended himself with a knife correct correct he got what he got wrong was how he got the knife but he told you that he used it on other people correct yes okay and he told you other things that you actually found out to be true right like he had a snorkel and goggles right yes okay and you found those not you but your police found those right yes okay so that's true right yes he told you that he was looking for Ariel's phone correct yes you guys found Ariel's phone right yes okay um he told you that people were calling him a a I think he says the word child molester um but it's true people were calling him names correct yes okay and I think he also told you on the tape that they were attacking me from all directions is that right he did say that okay do you in your investigation do you have any evidence through interviews of witnesses or anything else that that's not correct objection your outly approach yes e I'll sustain the objection on Foundation grounds uh Mr tropy you may continue uh Lieutenant Hart have you can you just give me a brief synopsis of the investigation that you've done in this case yes um I interviewed Sandy I interviewed Mr muw okay um and I coordinated um the translation a transcription of Hispanic speaking statements and 911 calls okay do you so the investigators that who have testified you're their boss I'm their supervisor yes okay um in an investigation like this do those reports pass over your desk do you see those I would say a majority of them not all of them okay do you so you're aware well tell me if you're aware that there has been multiple interviews conducted in this case by your investigators right yes of multiple eyewitnesses or people who claim to be eyewitnesses what has happened right yes and those have those reports passed over your desk not all of them have some of them passed over your desk yes okay based on the information that you have seen the reports that you've seen the interviews that you've conducted any other evidence that you've been able to look at uh my question to you was uh is there any evidence uh that contradicts the statement that Mr MW had made to you on that interview that he was surrounded on all directions I don't know you don't know well I haven't read everything single report for this case on the stuff that you've read I can't ask you about things you don't know what I can ask you is on the things that you've read the reports that you've reviewed the interviews that you've conducted there's nothing that contradicts his statement that he was surrounded right you're I'm going to object because I guess to time there's a three minute period here over can you answer the question so your question is if I've seen any of the reports that I've read I'm asking you if any of the evidence that you've reviewed in totality whatever you've reviewed in the totality okay there's nothing in the evidence that you've reviewed the witnesses that you've spoken to that contradicts Nick's statement that he was surrounded when he told you that right yeah he's the only interview I conducted you've reviewed other reports though right yeah okay and he I think he said in his interview with you that he he said all I want guys did you find a phone right you remember that yeah okay and through testimony you've seen and witness statements that you've read you know Joan cockfield holding a phone correct yes okay and um through your investigation you'd agree there were no little girls in that area at the time right not that I'm aware of okay so would you agree there's nothing factually in terms of evidence that would that you know about that would support the claim that people have said that he was looking for little girls there were none right there were none nope if you would have suspected he was impaired would you have followed up on that yes okay how I mean what would you just tell me what you would have done well I probably would have applied for a search warrant for his blood okay uh because that would if a person's intoxicated in this situ in the situation that happened this incident knowing that would be would matter to you right yeah just one moment judge I than you yes thank you Mr smad um Lieutenant Hart as you were interviewing Mr Mew did he at any point say anything about being strangled no did he say anything about having an injury or pain to his neck or throat no did you see any injuries on his face at all no how how many feet away from him were you during that interview however wide a table is uh can you describe the lighting in the interview room it was well lit did Mr Muse say anything about hearing anybody threaten him with a phrase similar to you've got 10 seconds no at the time that you interviewed Mr Mew towards the end when he asks you what happened did you know that he had already been informed that he was under arrest for homicide and attempted homicide objection speculation I'm asking if she knew I'll sustain the objection you have to rephrase the question did you have any knowledge as to what he had been informed of with regard to charges when he was arrested no when you asked when Mr you asked you what happened and you told them that someone had died what was his response I believe he said oh no did he appear to be surprised I'm going to object sustained speculation at one point in the video you see him put his head in his hands yes did you see any tears no Mr uh troughs he asked you about the stress that a victim can go can undergo and in your opinion you said yeah that sometimes that happens um the same go for 17-year-old kids who saw their best friend get stabbed to death yes and same goes for the people who actually were stabbed yes did Mr Mew ever waver in his claim that he did not himself have a knife on the river no did he do you know how many times he denied having a knife on the river if you remember I don't remember but it was more than once did he ever waiver in his claim that two of these boys pulled knives on him no did he appear to recall details of all how that all happened yes at one point in the video he asked if anybody had found a phone you recall that I do you know what phone he was talking about at that point of the interview objection spe sustained during your interview did he specify whose phone he was looking for yes I believe he told me he was arel nothing for tresy because he didn't tell you anything about hearing somebody say you got 10 seconds you're not saying that means it didn't happen right that somebody didn't say that right okay and because he didn't mention to you that he had been strangled you're not saying that that means it didn't happen right no or uh complain about neck pain or being hit in the face you're not saying that because he didn't say he wasn't hit in the face or however he was hit you're not saying because he left something out that that didn't occur right right that's all thank you lieutenant har you may step down Mr Anderson does the state have more evidence no judge all right the state rests uh members of the jury there are a few items that I need to discuss with the attorneys uh in private uh so we're going to have a recess this may be a little bit longer than some of the earlier recesses uh so please be patient we will get back to you uh before the lunch hour please take the jury out all R for the jury please be seated we are outside the presence of the jury I am meeting with the attorneys and with Mr MW in open court uh Mr Nelson uh is is there anything that you want to address yes judge so judge I would and I I'm not looking at the information so I apologize um but as it relates to uh I'm going to do it by um the names yes as it relates to um Dante Carlson and Anthony Carlson um and um Riley Madison uh those three people uh Mr me was charged with an attempt uh attempted homicide on those counts um and in reviewing the requirements for an attempt at homicide um and this will be short judge I'm not going to waste your time but what it says is it requires the defendant did acts toward the commission of that crime which indicate unequivocally and unequivocally is defined as it means no other inference or concl ution can reasonably and fairly be drawn from the defendant's acts under the circumstances so which indicate unequivocally under all the circumstances that he had formed that intent and would have caused the death of the intended victim except for the intervention of another person or some extraneous Factor extraneous factor is defined as something outside the knowledge of the defendant or outside of the defendant's control there has been testimony from Dr Meyer yesterday um Dr Meyer was only asked about one of these people and that was AJ Martin and that question to AJ about AJ Martin was would without medical intervention would AJ Martin have have died and his answer was yes as it relates to Dante Carlson my recollection of the evidence was he said he fixed a hernia um there was no testimony as to anything regarding um Anthony Carlson as it relates to Riley Matson I believed uh there was questions surrounding that and what he had said was that eventually she could have suffered uh in infection I think he mentioned sepsis uh could have been something that would have occurred um but I would argue to the court that based on the evidence and you have to take the evidence under all the facts and circumstances um that based on the actions of Mr Mew based upon the testimon regarding the injuries uh to the people I'm mentioning Dante Carlson Anthony Carlson and Riley Matson uh it is I would argue that it is not possible to say that no other inference can be drawn but that he intended to kill those people um and there's actually no information that Dante Carlson or Anthony Carlson would have died from their injuries anyway um so without any other extreme anous factor which would have prevented Mr Mew from doing this so we have one you you heard the evidence you can figure out how you would view the movements but I would argue that the facts and circumstances presented to the court and to the jury here uh do not support the claim that he unequivocally intended to kill these people uh Riley Matson said she thought she was punched she initially believed it was a punch uh and I don't think they're uh although not the deciding factor I don't think their injuries support the claim of uh an attempted first-degree intentional homicide so I would move uh for dismissal on those what whoever those whatever those counts are you're thank you uh who's going to argue for the state I can judge so I think this case it's similar to if you compare it to say a shooting case where somebody walks up to somebody shoots them in the Torso in the chest and it happens to miss vital organs and they just need stitches um I don't think I think it's a difficult argument to make that they didn't intend to kill them and it's the same thing here he's stabbing all these people in the area vital organs veins blood vessels um his intent can be intent is based on all facts and circumstances he sliced AJ up the belly he stabbed Isaac directly in the heart he stabbed Tony Dante and Riley in the area of all the vital organs Dante was stabbed right below where his heart is Tony was stabbed twice one he blocked that's certainly something out of nikolai's control um Riley was sliced across her side damaging her stomach and her diaphragm and so I think given all the facts and circumstances it's there's clearly enough for it to go to the jury the and but for the chance that he didn't happen to hit vital organs um I think that jury can still conclude his intent was to kill them all right this motion is being made after the close of state's evidence um there is a particular standard that I have to apply in fact the motion must be denied if considering the state's evidence in the most favorable light uh the evidence adduced believed and rationally considered is officials uh that pertain to this motion I am satisfied that the motion must be denied um there is uh the state has presented uh credible evidence that Mr Mew uh formed the intent to kill uh by inserting a knife into the Torso of the three individuals during a physical confrontation uh the Torso as we all know contains vital organs blood Supply nerves and other um Anatomy uh that if injured could lead to death I believe that the the risk of death is self-evident uh when faced with a knife uh stabed to that area uh there was an intervening event um and I think the state has presented evidence uh about uh the individuals uh fortitude to defend themselves uh to resist injury the intervention of responders and intervention of formal medical treatment in a hospital setting so for all those reasons I am satisfied that the state has presented uh sufficient evidence to Warrant the case to continue the motion is denied um is there anything else at this moment judge the the defense's opportunity the defense intends to call uh Nick you to testify um if we could just take a five minute break to make sure uh I go through the Colley with him privately and then we can come back and do that here in court very good uh have your conversation we'll come back at 11:05 and good morning again from the fox9 streaming Studios you of course are watching our gavel to gavel coverage of the Apple River stabbing trial from Hudson Wisconsin we have reached an absolutely critical stage in this trial the state has rested its case you just listened there the defense had moved to dismiss the attempted murder charges against uh uh Nikolai Miu is facing for the stabbings of what I would describe as the three lesser injured though Riley Matson did suffer um some horrible horrible injuries from the knife wound that day but uh Riley Matson and the two Carlson Brothers Tony and Dante the judge denying the motion to dismiss those counts so those counts continue right now and then in that last moment there Aaron Nelson defense attorney confirming Nikolai Mew is up this is the defense case my understanding is he is their last and final and only witness to go today we've taken a couple of their Witnesses out of turn Nikolai Miu spending these few minutes during this recess getting ready to take the to stand and I could not think of another attorney I would want to bring in right now uh to get some uh uh thoughts from this is Eric Nelson we've introduced him several times during this trial Eric represented a young man in Wisconsin about a decade ago self-defense claim knife attack along the St Croy River in Wisconsin and uh one an a quiddle there where his defendant got up on this the standing uh Levi acre Kendall and told his story and the jury eventually found uh Mr acre Kendall not guilty Eric Nikolai mu now just minutes away uh from testifying what is going on between him and his attorneys during this 5minute recess right now they're just making sure that uh Mr Mew does fully intend to testify they're going to have to go through a colloquy uh which is just making sure that he understands all of his rights his right to remain silent the fact that he uh you know can testify if he chooses and if he chooses to testify he'll be subject to cross-examination so I think what we'll see when the court reconvenes is that Mr Nelson Aaron Nelson will go through the rights that Mr Mew has and Mr M will have to make a formal waiver of those rights uh the uh that's what they're just discussing kind of last minute are you sure you want to do this and And discussing the strategy and and the importance of his testimony and of course I may be jumping in a gun just a tad but the defense did say during openings he was going to testify the jury was out of the room there I do want to point out there is still a last minute you know if he gets cold feet they don't think it's right but coming out of that damaging you know interrogation where he's making up stories and lying and misleading uh the investigator someone has to clean that up is it the right call to put meu on the stand right now I think it's the only call that they can really make um at this point uh short of short of him not testifying I mean again we got to get inside of his mind we have to know what he was thinking that day as well as during that statement so it's going to be an important decision of course it is Mr mw's decision it's not his lawyer's decision it's his decision and he's got to be the one to make it two years he's waited to tell this story um I know we've spoken about how at least if not in these five minutes they're not certainly you know putting pressure on him pretending to do cross-examination at this point that's all been done could you just describe how perhaps uh the attorneys may be working with a client like this over the last couple weeks uh he's been in jail he's been locked up for nearly two years we don't know you know how he's doing mentally obviously we can just see physically he's lost a lot of weight he's lost a lot of color uh from what we've seen uh from from the day of the stabbing but what has the last few days or maybe the buildup have they been meeting after hours to to to practice to talk about this to to go over certain questions I I would venture the the vast majority of that was done prior to the trial uh where they have reviewed evidence with their client they've talked about uh the types of questions they've likely done mock cross examinations mock direct examinations uh and you know what's happened uh during the course of the trial is yes I would expect that the lawyers would be meeting with Mr M after hours in the jail kind of going through the day's events talking about the evidence and you know making sure that they are going to address every single thing that needs to be addressed Eric before we took that break you heard uh defense councel attorney Cory trisi they're asking to dismiss the three attempted murder counts against sort of the three lesser injured though as I pointed out Riley Madison was badly injured uh that that that on that day and spent several days in the hospital surgery diaphragm damage but perhaps the two Carlson Brothers lesser injured um is that type of argument made in every case he try to get rid of a couple of these counts or uh did the defense really have a sound argument on on those three specific attempted murder charges yeah that type of motion is going to be made in virtually every single trial it's called a motion for Judgment of AC quitt uh the standard is such as the court said that they really have to the judge really has to look at the evidence in the light most favorable to the state um they have to take that into consideration and just say is it fair to make a jury you know uh consider these charges is it a valid argument sure it's always a valid argument or potentially a valid argument um I think you saw that the validity of the argument really applies particularly to the three lesser injured individuals because it really focuses on what was his intent um but it also does give you a little bit of a preview as to some of the arguments that the lawyers are going to be making and closing arguments as well which is you can look at these injuries and and on that basis a that he didn't have the intent to kill those people Eric you and I spoke overnight about the provocation component and there had been a lot of testimony back and forth in this trial about uh Nikolai Miu and what happens between him and Madison Cohen this is the woman the blonde woman Madison however we you know you want a phrase or her her identity has come in different ways depending on who's testifying but there def I mean from what I've observed of the testimony there's some kind of physical confrontation between those two whether Miu hits first she's in his space and puts arms on him question mark but why is that moment so important why is there so much attention being paid on the interaction between Miu and Madison and why should all eyes be on what he has to say about that encounter it's because the law in Wisconsin as well as in Minnesota does not afford an individual an opportunity to raise self-defense if they Prov provoke the uh confrontation so who is the first aggressor or who provokes the uh the physical part of the confrontation becomes a critical point in this case as well uh it could prevent Mr Mew from getting jury instructions if the court were to find that he was the uh initial aggressor it could deprive him theoretically of the self-defense instruction um I think the court has already indicated as going to give the instruction but that will become a very big part of the final closing arguments as well who provoked this who provoke this confrontation because if they if the jury finds or the court finds that Mr Mew was the initial aggressor then he is not entitled to raise self-defense the only way that he can revive his are back on the record with the attorneys and appreciate that stick around to the lunch hour did you and yourent have enough in just yes judge I understand that Mr me uh wants to wave his right to remain silent and assert his right to testify all right Mr Mew the conversation I about to have with you happens in every criminal case every criminal trial in Wisconsin every person charged with a crime has a constitutional right to remain silent and a constitutional right to present evidence including testifying uh you are at the crossroads faced by every person on trial for a crime uh you need to give up one right to exercise the other and I need to ask you some questions to verify that you're making a free voluntary and intelligent decision uh first do you understand that you have both a constitutional right to testify and a constitutional right to remain silent yes I do um do you understand that uh you do not have to prove your innocence rather the state must prove your guilt Beyond A Reasonable Doubt do you understand yes do you understand that if you choose to testify uh you will be subject to cross-examination by the prosecutor yes do you understand that if you choose to remain silent the state cannot refer to that fact yes do you understand that your silence cannot be used against you in any way shape or form yes have you had an opportunity to discuss your decision to testify uh with your attorney yes uh have you had enough time to discuss your decision yes um and have you made a decision about whether you'll testify yes and what is your decision to testify has anybody forced you or threatened you into making that decision no has anybody made any promises to you or offered you anything of value to arrive at that decision no are you presently under the influence of any drugs or alcohol no do you suffer from a mental health condition that is affecting your ability to think or process information today no uh have you had enough time to make your decision yes you need any more time no uh have all of your questions been answered by your attorneys yes all right at this time I find that Mr MW has made a free voluntary and intelligent decision uh to wave his right of Silence uh he's choosing to exercise his right to testify and present evidence on his own behalf um Mr try Mr Nelson how do you intend to proceed from here will Mr MW be the next witness or do you have others yes judge the plan is to call Mr M I have a PowerPoint that I would like to go through Power Point includes exhibit number 104 which is the the photo of the map that includes exhibit 108 which is the photos of Mr Mew uh in the hospital previously entered there's three screenshots from the 99sec video in exhibit number uh two and then the rest of them are screenshots from the frames and the video which we are from exhibit number two so all of the items in the PowerPoint are have already been exhibited I've tried to put up some white screens in between so that pictures don't linger so my preference would be to just have it on my computer the entire time and I'll if there's a long break I can move to a white screen okay because what we have been doing is once the video is no longer being used we usually take it down that's I'm not going to use the video at all I'm just using screenshots the monitor I meant sure however I mean again my hope is to not have things linger if you want to take it down obviously Court controls that if you want me to move it to a blank screen just tell me to do so and I will let's just follow our regular practice and hopefully the two of you will get into a rhythm and it'll be presented seamlessly any objection to the material that he intends to present no sounds like it's already been received into evidence is there anything else that we can do outside the presence of the jury real quick um we forgot we didn't make a record we ended the video of the jail interview of Nikolai at 56 minutes and 10 seconds uh two other things regarding his testimony because he's waving his right to remain silent the rest of sheriff Canon's body camera would be uh proper subject for impeachment so we plan to publish that during his cross and then we have a number of jail phone call translated transcripts which defense also has I think it's going to be difficult to cross him on that without saying their Jail phone calls with Sandy it was easy cuz she was the other person on the call so we could just ask her what was what he's told her um with Jail phone calls part of the relevance is how long it's been because part of their claim is well he was in shock so if it's 6 weeks later that he's saying things um I don't want the jury to wonder if we have a phone wiretapped or something like that I think they should and I I think frankly it's probably obvious I mean we just did his jail interview um some of them had raised their hands that they'd seen some of this on the news it's been well published that he uh is in custody so all right let's break this down uh first part was the rest of sheriff canuteson conversation Mr Nelson any objection or comment I think your Honor's already made rulings on that so nothing no additional objections other than the objections that we've orally filed in your honors made rulings and I believe your ruling was it was a Miranda violation but it was voluntary and therefore if that's your Honor's ruling and I think the state's recitation of the law is correct yeah I don't remember making that Express ruling because I've been holding back because I wasn't I don't want to start judging things that aren't performing um if I made that suggestion um it was intent enal because that's where this was all heading I mean I I saw the video I made the ruling I did not see anything in the video that would suggest that the statement was uh coerced or forced or made under some sort of threat uh it was a voluntary statement uh so although there was a Miranda violation Mr mw's decision to testify uh means that the balance of the statement could be used for purposes of impeachment so I will allow the state to show the balance of the sheriff canuteson video um and then the second part jail calls Char oh jail calls yes expect my direct is going to be 45 minutes so I expect it's going to take us to lunch so we can take certainly take it up now or we can take it up over the lunch hour I'll defer to your honor but I'd like to be heard on it yeah when we take it up how long are the jail uh recordings we wouldn't be admitting the actual recordings cuz they're in Romanian so we have uh they're translated by a translator he's on our witness list so if Nikolai denied saying the things in there we'd call him on rebuttal more than likely um but it'd be using the transcripts that that translator prepared from listening to the jail phone calls for impeachment so let when we get there we're going to object to those transcripts because unlike the Spanish transcripts which have uh transcribed the Spanish words and then translated the Spanish words into English these transcripts leave out the Romanian words and so we're we're not agreeing to the accuracy of the transcripts in any way shape okay so what I'd like to do then is get through the direct examination uh break for lunch hopefully uh at the conclusion of the direct exam and then we can take up the uh outstanding matter of cross examination over the lunch hour all right anything else no all right hearing none let's bring the [Music] Jan for all rides for the jury all right please be seated all right thank you members of the jury for your patience we are ready to resume uh the state has rested its uh presentation of evidence now we'll turn to the defense and see if they have evidence to present uh Mr Nelson judge for the defense calls Nick me Mr me uh please stand raise your right hand the clerk will ad Mr the oath do you thr the testimony you're about to give in this matter shall be the truth the whole truth but nothing but the truth the ho God I do please have a seat and the witness [Applause] chair Mr Nelson you're the Nick Mew we've been talking about for the past seven days yes sir Nick I want to right away talk to you about uh exhibit number 104 if I could have the screen you were on the Apple River on July 30th yes want to ask you about this exhibit which says it's from frame 2592 at 149 into the video have you seen this before yes do you remember that time in your life when you were on the river in that position as shown in that photograph yes sometime after that did something happen to you yes were you punched sometime after this were you after that yes okay I want to talk about the time between this and the time that you get punched okay okay um exhibit number 104 there is on the uh with it where are you on that I'm uh standing in front of two two ladies and which if you were going to just describe the symbol on exhibit 104 symbolizing you which one is that the one with the m okay what color do you want theator um at that point in time you said there's two people in front of you who are those two people in front of you a blonde lady to my left and the red head the a red hair lady to my right were there other does this accurately reflect how you remember roughly people in general around you yes the blonde lady in front and the U Other Woman you understand now that through the trial that the the blonde woman is named Madison Cohen yes can we use her name when possible yes and the uh you said red-haired woman her name's Riley Madison we use her name when possible so when Riley and Madison in are standing in front of you at that point just before you get punched right what are they doing they're yelling at me uh at one point they were pointing down river and saying go go get away some what are they doing with their hands they're touching me when you say touching you is that something gentle no they're pushing uh so uh Madison she pushed against my left shoulder she she pushed against my chest she was pointing her finger right at my face she was yelling at me very close to my face um Riley had her left had one of her arms I believe it was left hand on my right arm squeezing and pushing me back and you when you just gave that description you put your hands uh distance apart can you show us that again how far away were they about a foot okay less than a foot you've heard it described through trial as in your personal space would you agree with that yes right in my face I would describe when that was happening what did it sound like to you the volume was very very high um let me ask you about how your body was responding in that moment when people are pushing you poking at you the volume is high how's your heart could you tell us about what your heart rate was oh yeah uh my heart rate was getting really high um my my breathing was getting very high I was uh how about your vision did you have normal vision in that moment no no at that moment uh because of the situation I was getting tunnel vision and can you describe what you mean by you say in tunnel vision I couldn't see peripheral vision but I could see Center in in right before my eyes how about hearing how was your could you hear the noises uh I could hear the volume very high but I couldn't uh understand what they were saying it was the noise became garbled I mean the the sound became garble did you feel threatened at that point uh yes did you have your knife in your right hand yes what did you do with your left hand tell us what you did with your left hand yeah I uh yeah so with with my left hand I uh pushed her away from my face can you show us what you did with your left hand why' you do that she was very close to my face she was in my personal space she had been had been there for a while and uh I felt threatened were you did you intend to harm her in some way no did you try to harm her some way absolutely not do you know where if at all you had contact with her body when you raised your left hand in that manner no do you think you had contact with her no okay I want to take us out of that space now for a second okay Nick okay um if I could have the screen again um you you were here in court when we talked about um when we watched the video of you speaking with Brandy Hart is that right yes and I think told her about your health condition can you just tell the jury now what was your health like on July 30th of 2022 was very poor okay yeah um had you I think you mentioned to her again had quadruple bypass surgery before yes sir and how when did you have that uh 2020 about the same month so about August showing you here what's been marked as EX exhibit number 108 can you tell us what those are pictures of starting just on the on the left yep on the left it's me um right after the surgery um holding a red heart pillow against my surgery what was the purpose that you knew for that red heart pillow that was to um protect my uh my uh uh surgery from hits bumps was that something that the hospital provided it looks like there's like almost a picture of heart and lungs on there it is the the the hospital provided that and then the picture in the middle what is that my first walk um my new life did it take you some time to recover and uh be as active and mobile as you were before oh yeah do you think you ever reach the same level of mobility and fitness that you were prior to the quadruple bypass never uh what's the picture of you on the right there you can tell us my baby okay um is that a dog yeah is that dog important to you you're my angel okay and that's uh the cushions helping you to enjoy time with her but still keeping your chest safe yes sir okay you've had other surgeries in the past is that right yes did you have a hernia surgery two hernia surgeries have you had back surgery yes and again in general would you consider your Fitness on if you were going to put it on a scale for July 30th what would you consider your overall health and fitness on July 30th of 2022 with my weight and very poor I want to ask you now about moving on to the Apple River in July 30th okay okay on that this plan this was a planed trip is that right yes did you get a call from your friend Ernesto sometime before that trip yes sir what was that call about he wanted to remind me to bring uh my knife to cut string uh when when we the the tubes together okay when you say do you have a pocket knife yes okay can you tell us about that pocket knife I owned it for about 10 years I have it a lot on me I use it as a basically a dual Tool uh I call it my uh Swiss army knife uh basically because it I use it as a screwdriver I cut insulation when I do electrical work I I do it I I use it pretty much everywhere okay I'm an engineer my tool is it um something that you've carried on your person I don't want to say all the time but somewhat routinely yeah when I knew I was going to work on something or need it for something yes okay now I want to skip ahead again now to to the river okay at some point did Ariel lose his phone yes he did did you go to look for that phone I volunteered to go look for it when you went to go look for that phone did you what were you wearing before that NOP right when you when you left your group to go look for that phone what were you wearing so I took my goggles my snorkel and my swimming trunks did you have anything on your feet Yes I had on my feet I had a pair of really really torn up uh uh sandals can I approach judge yes showing you what's been marked as exhibit 113 is this a pack out of nine photos of your sandals yes you've seen those yes does that accurately show the condition of the sandals that you had yes can you just move the admission of exhibit 113 any objection I don't think I seen them I look yes all right 113 is received these weren't taken by you were they pictures no no these were taken by the sheriff's department correct yes uh permission to publish judge yes can I just cuz we're going to go through the power coin can I pass just pass him to the jury can you use your words I know we have a picture that better does it but just briefly describe the condition of those sandals horrible okay they they were they were just coming apart they they I couldn't walk on a unless I try to M them okay um as you can see I use Str leftover string to men them when you left wearing those sandals in your shorts um did you have your pocket knife with you yes where was it in my right bucket clipped to my did you have that there pretty much all day yes um you were here when we watched the video of your interview with Brandy Hart is that right yes um when you spoke with Brandy Hart were you truthful to her about the knife no I lied about the knife was that your knife yes it is it was did you bring it with you uh when you went to go uh look for the phone yes I did when you went to go look for the phone did you have any intent to harm anybody no why' you go leave your group to go look for the phone okay at some point did you have some contact with uh a group of uh teenagers yes um and you were here in court when we uh saw the n9c video is that right yes I want to show you just a a couple of slides from that if I could do you uh do you see those slides up there yes are those from that video yes what are you uh doing in those three slides in general I was scanning the water looking for the phone okay and are you in that position are you walking up River or down river up River away from the from that group of uh boys did you hear them say some things to you yes prior to your walking up River and them uh did you hear those words that I have written on that slide yes prior to your hearing those words when you were walking up River had you had verbal contact with that group I think so they asked me what I was looking for and I told them I'm I'm looking for a phone a lost phone did you ever tell them that you were looking for little girls no were you looking for little girls absolutely not it's pathetic um when you at the end of this when you you watch the video at the end of the video where I'm not going to play it but do you remember what you did right there at the end at the end I was walking away okay did you eventually turn around and face in the direction of the group that was yelling at you and calling you a raper yes we knew yes e e I'll sustain the objection uh the question was leading please continue what did you do at the end of the video I was walking away at some point did you ever become in a position where you uh were looking at that group of teenagers that yelled at you yes um what did you see when you were looking at that group of teenagers after the end of this video I uh saw them I saw one of them holding a a phone in a bag um and I believed it was what I was looking for so I turned around and I started approaching him why did you approach them I wanted to get a closer look at the phone to see if it was the one that was uh that belonged to arel um did you eventually get near them yes I uh I I started walking then I uh rushed the pace uh stumbled and fell on my knees held on to their tube um at which point I lost my my goggle and snorkel kit in the water did you saw on the video or excuse me you saw during your interview with Brandy Hart that you said things different than what you just said now about what happened to your snorkel and goggles mhm is that right yes is your memory sometimes different than what you see in the video yes okay was your memory in your memory what happened to your goggles in my memory the goggles got um knocked away knocked away reading so got one second when there's an objection just wait on your answer uh it is leading sustained next question please his answer stri it's a leading question let's move on um is your memory perfect never um now that you've watched the video do you really realized that you were wrong about that yes um what happened to your goggles my goggles uh fell in the water when they fell in the water what did you do I started looking for them searching right where they fell um if I oops on already showing you here uh some slides 220 225 and 279 can you tell us what you're doing I'm searching for the the goggle kit and where are you in relation to the six teenagers tubes are you on the side are you up River are you down river are you in some other position I'm up River so um yeah I'm going to then show you another group of slides 575 6625 what is that show you doing I so what I did from that point I went around the the inner tubes to the other side and I continued looking for the goggle and snorkel set why did you walk around from the one side to get to the other side of the tubes um well I I I thought that the water current current would would would bring him over to the other side and I was walking away from the boys at the same time okay um during that time that you walked in that direction did you have any physical contact with them no were you confronting them no didn't say a word this next set of slides um what does this show you doing here I'm walking away from from the group still go ahead I'm looking I'm looking still looking for my goggles at at that time when you were doing that did you ever hear the kid say anything they gave me a warning what' they say you got 10 seconds uh in response to that what did you do I ignored and I actually continued doing what I was doing okay can show you the next set of slides here um were you in a position to see here 963 1140 and 1155 what the teenagers were doing behind you they were getting closer and closer to me they were walking towards me were you in a position to see that was that behind you or had you turned around uh well I could hear their voice voices I could hear that they were getting closer at some point uh um I may have turned my head and witness that they're coming towards me showing you 1170 1213 and 1284 what do you what's happening here I'm uh I have basically I'm at an angle to them but I could say I have my back at them um still scanning the water and they were right behind me they got that close they within seconds they were right behind me at some point did you see other people from another group yes what did you see um I saw uh what I seemed to me at the time adults coming over from the other side of the river and when you saw um adults coming over over from the other side of the river what did you do I uh walked towards them I walked towards this the first one was a uh a it was Madison when you walked towards Madison where were the six teenage boys that had been yelling at you they're following me okay were you in their path as you walked across the river towards Madison no did they have a p as far as you know did they have a clear path down the river if they wanted more than plenty can I showing you this next group of photos um what did you what's going on here so um in this Frame here uh the left the the first adult that came to me was Madison she already had her finger pointing down river and yelling at me and and and used some awkward words ordering me to go down we see your it looks like you're doing something with your right hand do you remember what are you doing with your right hand yep I was uh trying to explain to her what I'm looking for when you tried to explain to her what you were looking for did you get the impression she was listening to you no her voice was too loud whaton that is an impression okay hold on hold on wait a second sustained speculation I'm asking about his impression so I'll refr I'll just did you get the impression that Madison Cohen was going to listen to your words no why not because she was too loud she never stopped to give me a chance to talk and she kept pointing and ordering me to go down down river we've all heard the tape but just to be was she using polite language po right no did you hear anyone saying anything behind you when you walked over to Madison Cohen yes they're all calling me names okay showing you the next set of slides here uh 1776 1840 and 1824 what are you doing uh here in this set of slides I'm turning my back uh towards uh Madison and the rest of the people why did you turn your back to Madison and the rest of the people it felt to me like I couldn't have a conversation with her at that point she was not listening and I didn't want to I didn't want to interact any further had you at that point found your snorkel or goggles no had you at that point found the phone no did you hear anybody saying anything while you stood there with their back to them oh yeah what did you hear they were still yelling he's looking for little girls were you looking for little girls absolutely not when you heard them did you consider that to be a lie your H leading sustained I asked did you consider that to be a lie I don't think of course please don't think that's I sustain I sustain the objection please move on when you heard that did you consider to be truthful or did you consider it to be untrue untrue and when you heard someone say an untruth about you did that change how you were feeling I uh felt frustrated I felt annoyed they kept saying it over and over so it annoyed me and frustrated me and when you heard them say this untruth about you did it appear to you as if the other group that had come over agreed with what these kid the the teenagers were yelling about you objection leing sustained did you think anybody in the other group was going to help you or listen to you when you were being called these names and accused of being a pedophile injection beding sustained how did you feel well I I felt overwhelmed at that point I felt still annoyed frustrated I felt like she wasn't listening she was the adult I I thought I was going to to reason with or get help from she didn't obviously didn't even attempt to reprimand the children from yelling showing you another slide here um 7 1838 1846 and 1865 is that you yes what are you doing can we yes e e just one moment for for ready okay yes sir let's continue showing you photos 1838 1846 1865 what are you doing in those do you remember what you were doing yeah I had my back towards uh the the the group of people in the two photos there which direction are you looking I'm looking down river okay are you looking at uh there's two different groups if I recall from exhibit 104 is that right yes one came from one side of the river and the other one's on the other side of the river correct which where are you in the photo on the upper left are you looking at one particular group as opposed to another group yes I'm looking at the the boys group and why are you looking at the boys group because they were yelling at me and what were they yelling at you they were yelling things that were not true and pointing at me when this I want to after that happened showing you the next group of slides 1875 1883 and 1889 do you remember what Madison did if anything to you yeah what did she do she grabbed my right arm and she pulled me towards her and I lost my balance so I moved towards her did you consider that in that circumstance to be a gentle or a gracious touch no that was not a gracious touch no not at all had she been using any gentle or gracious words with you not that no not that I remember um in those photos can we see the Footwear that you were wearing on that day yep those sandals that we saw earlier did you have confidence in your footing in that area with those sandals objection leading sustained how did you feel about your footing in that area very unstable uh want to show you a next set of slides here uh do you remember uh what you say to Madison after she um pulled on your right arm yeah I told her not to touch me and why did you tell her that because she pulled on me without my my invitation um were you did you say that in any particular tone no not in a mean tone but I I made it sound so she could hear me don't touch me okay why didn't you want her to touch you I didn't give her permission to do so sure but why did you not want to give her permission to do so because she was one mind one track mind she just wanted to get me away from that point me down river and tell me to go there what's your comfort level at this point um on a scale from uh 1 to to 10 Comfort level is very low okay are you um if you had that same thing a scale of like a fear scale a 1 to 10 fear scale right and so with 10 being the most fearful you've ever been in your life and and zero let's call 0 to 10 being the most safe you've ever felt where are you at here on a fear scale in that particular yeah about one okay so you're more uncomfortable but not necessarily afraid is that what I understand correct at um where was your group in relation to you then was up River and did you do anything in order of in relation to your group yep what did you do I I turned to them and I I uh called them I was trying to call them to to come over and help me is are these slides does this 2127 2140 2131 what does that show you doing I was waving at them and calling them to to come over when you say you were calling them did you do something physical or did you something something verbal or did you do both physical did you make any ver verbal comments at that point no why not it was very loud all around me was very loud I don't think that anybody could have heard me 10 and something feet away with everybody else yelling did you think your yelling was going to deescalate or escalate the situation uh when everybody's uh uh uh raising their voice I don't think having another raised voice would help the situation um after you raised your hand to call for your friends did you see Madison con doing anything oh yeah she was uh looking at towards her group and then she waved to them to come over to uh to her did is that what we're seeing here in 2261 2262 and 2263 what do you see yep she is calling her uh her group over did you remember when she called her group over did her group respond yes were did they join that yeah yes showing you now these slides is that what you saw Yes um I think we sh asked you question before about exhibit 104 with you the Blue Dot and the other red dots when you were eventually were you standing there were other people around you yes when you were standing there in that moment with the other people around you after you've called your friends once was that other group did they appear to be afraid to you Afraid from me afraid did they appear when you look at them do they look like they're in fear no absolutely what does it look like to you they're all laughing and enjoying themselves at whose expense at my expense and wait wait speculation as to what these other sustain speculation as to what other people think next question how did you feel in that moment when they were around you saying those things did you think they wanted you to join in their laughter no I did you want to join in their laughter no absolutely not where if this fear scale is going is it staying at one or is it moving in a particular direction it's creeping up um showing you another set of slides here 2328 2311 2382 do you remember uh what do you remember about that I remember uh the Young boys are are yelling uh pointing at me uh saying things that are not true um did you were you able to see like in this next slide this 2429 2440 2401 were you able to see As you stood there what everybody was doing were you able to scan and see that for a brief second yes they were very close they were really close to me I could I could see and hear them how about your fear scale there where where is it where is it about two or three okay I see in the one on the right there you have your hand someplace can you tell me what you're doing with your right hand yes I'm uh uh reaching for my pocket knife why because uh at one point my fear was getting really high and I I I was getting ready to pull it out okay um do you remember other than what you've talked about Madison Cohen pulling you which we saw do you remember anybody else touching pushing grabbing you in any way the the two ladies yeah yeah showing you here what's 2472 2478 2481 do you remember what's happening in those photos yes yes um this one the lady on my right side she uh she grabbed my my arm and she was pushing against my uh my arm and did that increase your level of comfort or increase your level of fear or something different so it decreased My Level uh the level of comfort and increased my uh my fear do you know do you remember at some point do you take your knife out of your pocket yes I I do do you know when it is in relation to these slides do you have a memory exactly of when that is not exactly but when they're pushing and and poking at me I remember I pulled it out then okay do you remember did you have it out before you were punched or after you were punched before I was punched okay showing you another set of slides here it looks like you're do you remember doing something with your left hand yeah at that moment I really needed my my people to come over and and help me so I was uh trying to get their attention um one more slide here do you um what's happening here in the slide um Madison is pushing on my left shoulder and basically yelling at me right in my face and then on the next slide we see something in your hand is that right that's a knife um why' you take out your knife at that point I was beginning to be afraid and what was it about that moment where everybody is that made you so fearful that you took out your knife I was surrounded they uh they were yelling they they had just pushed me um well the lady they they squeezed my arm I mean seemed like they're not backing away um previously you turned around is that right yes did you feel comfortable turning around in this situation no why not they're too close to to me what happened the last time that you turned around nothing good um judge this good place to break may as well be all right it's 12:00 noon let's break for lunch um you'll be taken downstairs to the assembly room again uh please no conversation about the case amongst yourselves or with anybody else do not conduct any independent research or investigation and uh excuse me uh do not uh use your devices to access any news reports or social media accounts about this trial uh please take the jury out I'll R the jury okay please be seated we are outside the presence of the jury uh we had a couple of sidebars Mr mu come sorry oh yeah I'm sorry Mr M you can sit down at the table we had a couple of sidebars concerning the U PowerPoint presentation uh Mr smad objected to the text that was superimposed on the photographs you believe that they prompted Mr Muse uh answers and thus uh formulated a leading style of uh examination uh Mr Nelson agreed to Simply remove the text and I believe that solved the problem anything you want to add no Mr Nelson yes but I'll refrain um I'd like to have the transcripts of these uh conversations so I can review them over the lunch hour and get a better understanding about what it is that you want to introduce and what the uh objections may end up being so do you have those available yes okay please give them to the clerk so I can read them over lunch hour um how much more do you have I think I'm on slide 27 of a 40 slide presentation so 15 minutes okay so let's come back at 12:45 so I can take up the issue about the recorded conversations all right that's all let's go back all right good afternoon from our fox9 uh streaming Center here for our Apple River stabbing trial gavel to gavel coverage we have just seen uh the first portion of uh they're going to divide up the defendants testimony today Nikolai Miu you heard there his defense attorney has about 15 more minutes by his estimation we'll do that after lunch they're giving the jury lunch they have some legal issues to talk about and then obviously Nikolai Miu will have to face uh withering what we expect to be a withering cross-examination uh from the state they too have now waited two years to really have this opportunity let's bring in uh criminal defense attorney Eric Nelson Eric uh your first assessment on Nikolai Miu and and and the story he is beginning to tell this jury yeah I mean I think uh the defense is doing a good job of doing a couple things number one they're they're doing a good job of humanizing him you know putting him into the perspective as far as having the the heart surgery that the the dog they're making him to be a sympathetic person physically weaker than the uh group of boys um and what they're also working on doing is trying to delineate between memory issues um inconsistencies lack of recollection versus out andout lies that he told Eric Aaron Aaron Nelson no relation right I don't you're not related I don't think I've specifically asked you that question but Aaron Nelson is a miu's defense attorney doing the direct examination of him he literally went you know got his name out you're the Nikolai Miu but then right into the confrontation with Madison Cohen we've talked about this ad nauseum in our coverage but that just seems like the critical moment and I think it was highlighted there uh with that strategy if you're defense uh council is that what you're doing you going right to that moment physically between Madison Cohen Nikolai Miu in the river facing off with everyone yelling and screaming around them yeah I mean I think it's an effective strategy I think uh you know they've done a lot of the character type Witnesses by taking people out of order um so they've able to really kind of establish a little bit more about who he is through his wife and friends and let's just get right to the meat and potatoes of what we're here to deal with and before I go back and play a little bit of the test just quickly the state is objecting a lot to the leading questioning and and and the judge is um uh sustaining the objections as if Aaron Nelson I don't know I mean it must be delicate to to to to elicit a testimony from your own client could you explain legally what we're watching there and what Aaron Nelson has to do to make sure his questions can get legally answered sure uh because he's doing the direct exam he has to ask very general questions what happened what were you feeling versus leading questions which generally the defense is more accustomed to doing leading question uh the question itself implies or contains the answer that you're seeking um so it is a little bit difficult as a defense attorney to kind of switch hats and go into a a direct exam uh and so that these are really just sort of technical objections um you know that the state is making and they're being sustained because they are leading questions and again before I get back to the uh the sound bite on the witness from Nicolai muu I would just point out uh at different points over the last few days of this trial defense Witnesses were taken out of turn so there were some reasons why that's important and who gets to ask certain kinds of questions so with that let's go back Nikolai miu's first uh sound bite that we have queued up uh from this morning's testimony the noise became garbled I mean the the sound became garbled did you feel threatened at that point uh yes did you have your knife in your right hand yes what did you do with your left hand tell us what you did with your left hand yeah I uh yeah what so with with my left hand I uh pushed her away from my face can you show us what you did with your left hand why' you do that she was very close to my face she was in my personal space she had been had been there for a while and uh I felt threatened were you did you intend to harm her in some way no did you try to harm her in some way way absolutely not do you know where if at all you had contact with her body when you raised your left hand in that manner no and I know Eric sometimes you don't always hear the sound bite in the way our feet is set up but he talked about the noise being garbled remember he talked about how loud it had become and every the water's running and he couldn't hear everything he felt threatened he had the knife in his right hand he had his left hand and I pushed her away from my face I felt threatened again the beginning there of his story about what he's doing is he's sort of squared up with Madison Cohen right yeah he's I mean he is explaining a couple of different things here that are happening uh one is a whole separate uh analysis that I think the defense covered a little bit before in terms of the tunnel vision in terms of what he saw and here um it's really dipping in the their toe into uh the water of what we call Force science and what happens to the human brain in a high stress situation uh so you've got that kind of tail ended and then sort of that confrontation that initial confrontation and he's essentially what they're doing is establishing that Mr M felt threatened or was beginning to feel threatened and used a moderate amount of force to just create a personal space that wasn't intended to be assaultive in its nature I know I'm going to bounce around because there's just so much to impact from that first half hour but how important is his health the fact he did the quadruple bypass he feels loud he's just you know lucky to be alive has you know been on bed rest you know in the year or so before this how important is the health component to to what would transpire that day it it's important I mean it's it's not the primary you know Focus but it is important to take into consideration the things he's feeling the things he's concerned about the emotional response he's having to this situation again because the jury instruction is so specific that the jury when they're analyzing the testimony of all of the witnesses and all of the exhibits they have to look at it from the perspective of Mr mu and the jury instruction is very favorable to the defense in this regard so that's why they're bringing a lot of these things that may seem trivial or may seem somewhat distant but if that's what he's experiencing and that's what he's concerned about uh they want the jury to know that for sure and I think one thing that is new it's been hinted at during the testimony up to this point but why didn't you go to the group right we've seen that video he's kind of free and clear um it it picks up a little bit into you know the initial uh contact with the teenage tubers from still water but he's definitely a Down River but he comes kind of marching back through the water we now know he doesn't really like the the the the the sandals he's wearing they're all beat up the the riverbed is slippery but why did he go back you know that that I thought was sort of an important point and I don't know if the defense purposely sort of ort of left that sort of to be mysterious until this point but he was clear today that the reason why he ran back is he thought he saw that lost cell phone Ariel's lost cell phone remember it's in the pouch it goes uh it gets lost he assumes it's down river so he heads out uh in his snorkle and goggles looking for that phone and I don't know if it's the way cockfield was holding his cell phone off the you know protective water bag lanyard but he certainly thinks that the kids could have his cell phone so or or his group cell phone so he goes towards them that that makes sense right if he thinks there's something he's looking for valuable object and then that the kids might be taunting him about that you know perhaps you know he's entitled to go back and look but then as he gets there he slips and then all of a sudden that begins one of the first sort of steps in this kind of escalating confrontation that would then kind of blow up with uh with Madison Cohen and Riley Madison coming over from the Carlson group I'm just wondering did did you get the feeling like the defense kept that little sort of secret like why did me you uh run back or or do you think that had been established enough and I just uh sort of missed it no I don't know that it was an intentional effort on their part um but obviously a lot of the other Witnesses wouldn't be able to testify about why Mr Mew would have run or jogged or slipped uh in their Direction why he approached them and in for any reason so you know that they would have not have the ability to say what his intention was at that point this highlights again you know the importance of his testimony right why did he jog what was happening in that moment um and what was his perception of these events uh so I think they the defense intentionally had to wait for Mr Mew to explain those behaviors and I think that they did a really good job establishing he was looking for the cell phone the kid was holding a cell phone he thought he was being you know offered the cell phone that they had found on the Rocks drops the drops the uh snorkel and goggles and you know then it just it escalates from there we're watching the video in in the the uh side screen now full screen here but uh yeah you then see the snorkeling goggles go under and then the boys you know really start surrounding them and what the Carlson's impression the Carlson group's impression of what's happening I little step in this process Eric just escalates you can think of so many moments where both sides you know it did not have to result where it did I'm just I'm curious we haven't necessarily gotten to the point in his testimony we know you know he admits to where he pulled it out why he pulled it out why that moment he pulled it out does he have to explain why he doesn't say anything why he doesn't offer a warning you know if he cuts up and kind of holds up the knife you know I don't know I mean the perception of a jerk could be no one's going to kill him right there in that River but I've got a knife now back up he he doesn't do that is that something will he have to explain what what he doesn't do in that moment once he pulls out the knife I don't I don't know that he's going to have to explain why he didn't do uh that um why he didn't give them a warning the law doesn't require him to give a warning to use force uh the law allows even uh for a misperception of the Potential Threat to him uh so he doesn't have to be accurate in what he's perceiving and viewing I think it's I think this whole kind of chain of events right here really highlights uh some of the issues that lawyers deal with with witness memory witness perception you know you see him running towards this group to a group of kids it's a very strange you know strange reaction why is this grown man running towards us but it also puts it into perspective from from his uh from his point of view as well so you know the law doesn't require him to kind of give a warning or you know or anything uh he he pulls it out I think that's a clear sign he was feeling threatened let's go back I've got another sound bike queued up from his testimony in case you're just joining us it's now 12:15 central time we are on a lunch break uh you might have heard uh judge say they are coming back to discuss some legal issues at 12:45 we then anticipate the jury coming back at 1:00 uh Nikolai Miu under direct examination and then we would get to a state cross Eric uh bear with me we're going to play that sound bite from this morning Nikolai Mew um testimony under director examination by his defense attorney Aaron Nelson I lied about the knife was that your knife yes it is it was did you bring it with you uh when you went to go uh look for the phone yes I did when you went to go look for the phone did you have any intent to harm anybody no why' you go leave your group to go look for the phone okay at some point did you have some contact with a a group of uh teenagers yes um and you were here in court when we uh saw the 9sec video is that right yes I want to show you just a a couple of slides from that if I could do you uh do you see those slides up there yes are those from that video yes what are you uh doing in those three slides in general I was scanning the water looking for the phone okay and are you in that position are you walking up River or down river up River away from the from that group of uh boys did you hear them say some things to you yes prior to your walking up River and them uh did you hear those words that I have written on that slide yes prior to your hearing those words when you were walking up River had you had verbal contact with that group I think so they asked me what I was looking for and I told them I'm I'm looking for a phone a lost phone did you ever tell them that you were looking for little girls no were you looking for little girls absolutely not it's pathetic um when you at the end of this when you you watch the video at the end of the video where I'm not going to play it but do you remember what you did right there at the end at the end I was walking away okay did you eventually turn around and face in the direction of the group that was yelling at you and calling you a raper yes when you yes e I'll sustain the objection uh the question was leading please continue what did you do at the end of the video I was walking away at some point did you ever become in a position where you uh were looking at that group of teenagers that had yelled at you yes um what did you see when you were looking at that group of teenagers after the end of this video I uh saw them I saw one of them holding a a phone in a bag um and I believed it was what I was looking for so I turned around and I started approaching them why did you approach them I wanted to get a closer look at the phone to see if it was the one that was uh that belonged to Ariel and Eric I I hope you heard that one but that was uh part of the uh testimony about lying about the knife uh you know he owned it there and I lied about the knife uh did you ever tell uh the young men uh what you were looking for little girls he said didn't know that's pathetic seemed you know heartfelt legitimate response to some of the the testimony that has come in that he was it said at some point I was looking for little girls seemed to swat that away and then uh talk about uh was walking away but wanted to get a closer look at the phone um early you know he hasn't gotten under cross examination yet we haven't gotten to necessarily the stabbing moments um but so far likable sympathetic what what do you think the jury's making of of just the way he's telling the story yeah I I think he comes across as uh quite measured in his response I think he's coming across as a sympathetic uh individual I think in that last clip that we just watched what the defense is really trying to do is establish a couple of different things uh number one is by indicating that he was walking away from the confrontation uh he was uh giving uh there the the the defense is establishing that essentially what what uh that the boys were the ones who continued the confrontation so it's the whole question of the duty to retreat or whether there is any ability to retreat under Wisconsin law number two what they're doing by talking about the the slurs or the comments that the boys were making towards Mr Mew is they're establishing that those words were confrontational uh generally speaking when we think about a confrontation you think about a physical confrontation but the law does authorize you know some physical response to what what the First Amendment refers to as fighting words and uh so your speech or your your ability to say things is tempered by uh you're not allowed to use fighting words those are the types of words that are going to provoke an immediate breach of the Peace by calling a grown man a child rapist by calling him a predator those are the types of things I think the defense is trying to illustrate as that could be considered to be the initial provocation the fact that they followed him and that they were uh continuing to use those types of words and descriptions U that could be considered an arguably the first provocation Eric I'm going to May throw you off a little bit here but what does this case look like if we don't have the cockfield video it's a completely different situation uh that video is uh such an instrumental part of the case and you know I think that one of the missteps if there's missteps on the part of the prosecution is is attempting to kind of illustrate that this is not the entirety of the perspective of everybody and everything um I mean obviously the video has taken a front and center role it's entirely important if we didn't have it it's anybody's word uh and credibility becomes far more important uh about who had the knife whose knife was it all of those things are far more important but the video is going to show uh a lot and it's going to be a very important piece for the jury to consider I know right before lunch we listened in as a defense tried to dismiss three of the attempted murder charges against three of the Lesser injured of of the victims in the river that day the judge denied uh the motion uh at that point I'm just wondering I know I asked you this before the trial could you get a scenario where certain counts you know we'll get to maybe is is a case appropriately charged but could you get to a point where certain stabbings are justified by by self-defense but others are not or you see a jury sort of making an up and down decision because each count sort of rep does represent the victim the murder is Isaac Schuman and then the four attempted murders are each individual stabbing victim if you will I know people that's a that's a weighted term victim but um would you see an up and down verdict or could you get one or two yes they did X Y and Z provoking him more and then AC quitting on on some of the other counts uh you can see really any combination uh in this particular case because there really are multiple issues uh you could have a the jury decide in one particular with one particular alleged victim that it was not his intent to kill that particular individual uh and in other with other victims you could see that uh they could say that well it may not have been his intent to kill but the amount of force he used was unreasonable on the circumstances so you you can really have a mixture of any combination of guilty or not guilty in this particular case interesting I appreciate that let me uh go back to one more in case some of our viewers may not or streaming viewers did not get to see all of miu's testimony uh we have another uh portion of it cute up at several minutes uh this again really focusing on that encounter between Miu and Madison Cohen uh we'll pick it up there do you remember what Madison did if anything to you yeah what did she do she grabbed my right arm and she pulled me towards her and I lost my balance so I moved towards her did you consider that in that circumstance to be a gentle or a gracious touch no there was not a gracious touch no not at all had she been using any gentle or gracious words with you not that no not that I remember um in those photos can we see the Footwear that you were wearing on that day yep those sandals that we saw earlier did you have confidence in your footing in that area with those sandals objection leading sustained how did you feel about your footing in that area very unstable uh want to show you a next set of slides here uh do you remember uh what you say to Madison after she um pulled on your right arm yeah I told her not to touch me and why did you tell her that because she pulled on me without my my invitation um were you did you say that in any particular tone no not in a mean tone but I I made it sound so she could hear me don't touch me okay why didn't you want her to touch you I didn't give her permission to do so sure but why did you not want to give her permission to do so because she was one mind one track mind she just wanted to get me away from that point me down river and tell me to go there what's your comfort level at this point um on a scale from uh one to to 10 Comfort level is very low okay are you um if you had that same thing a scale of like a fear scale a 1 to 10 fear scale right and so with 10 being the most fearful you've ever been in your life and and zero let's call zero to 10 being the most safe you've ever felt where are you at here on a fear scale in that particular yeah about one okay so you're more uncomfortable but not necessarily afraid is that what I understand correct at um where was your group in relation to you then was up River and did you do anything in order uh in relation to your group yep what did you do I I turned to them and I I uh called them I was trying to call them to to come over and help me is are these slides does this 2127 2140 2131 what does that show you doing I was waving at them and calling them to to come over when you say you were calling them did you do something physical or did you something verbal or did you do both physical did you make any verbal comments at that point no why not it was very loud all around me was very loud I don't think that anybody could have heard me 10 and something feet away with everybody else yelling did you think your yelling was going to deescalate or escalate the situation uh when everybody's uh uh uh raising their voice I don't think having another raised voice would help the situation there a couple quick questions out of there uh the effectiveness of using that scale the 1 to 10 Z to 10 just to put uh sort of his uh his feelings in that moment did you like that sorry I had to unmute oh no oh did you you heard the question now yeah yep I heard the question sorry uh it was a little awkward I think it highlights some of the English to English as a second language type issues uh it was a little bit awkward um I think they cleared that up with some follow-up questions that were much more effective um yeah and then the other thing was just uh the explanation why he didn't why he wasn't more verbal or perhaps more um you know engaging with trying to wave down his group that we now know is 233 feet away I know he's using at least a hundred but we've seen in some graphics that uh and some models created by the uh by the authorities who investigated the case that the Muse tubing group was more than 200 feet away so almost three quar of a football field away um decent explanation he didn't want to ratchet up the temperature there uh he didn't think anyone would hear him does that make some sense to you yeah I mean I think it does I think it illustrates kind of a lot of what he was feeling in that moment and trying to put himself back into that uh into that time uh obviously he had described kind of the the noise level the volume of the kids yelling at him he was concerned about that and obviously it could potentially escalate the situation into yet an even bigger confrontation and and my final question for you before we take the lunch hour with all of you and again 12:45 we'll be back in court for some legal arguments 1:00 for testimonies that's about a half hour away yet um what does the state want to think about in terms of their strategy and cross-examination of the defendant right they're going to really focus I think on a couple of different things number one they're going to really want to try to hammer on and focus on that Mr Mew if he felt so threatened could have easily swam away like that's essentially it goes to that whole he had the ability to uh disengage the situation he's the adult um they can focus on that number two and I suspect that will address uh the they will go through and highlight every single lie that he told in his statement to investigators those are going to be the focus on uh the focus of of what they're going to be doing what's a good answer for him why didn't you swim away why didn't you walk away why didn't you just leave who cares about the phone sure I mean he could have he could have said a couple of things um you know the the water drops off he didn't know if they were going to gang up on him from behind he didn't know uh what was going to happen and so it was better for him to to sort of stay facing the threat in a way uh rather than turning his back to the threat and I had one friend who I know is watching from afar just assessing everything and it's just like it's all human like we're hearing these questions asked one at a time and frame by frame but what is the overall sort of takeaway as a human being that that has a knife in in in in your pocket you know for legal reasons for obvious reasons to go tubing but eventually the jury does have to do that right they have to put themselves in Nicolai situation assessing everything what's going on around him the circumstances that he is trying to help a friend out and find a phone then all of a sudden he trips now he's missing his snorkeling goggles now he's got women in his face they have to assess it from all of that right there is human emotion yes there are questions and answers and screenshots but at the end of the day there's a human being in that body that makes these decisions right it it we live in a very strange vacuum in the courtroom where we have the ability to break down what happens in frame by frame or second by second you know milliseconds even uh I think that the the Crux of both sides closing arguments are really going to have to focus on the the intensity of the situation and bringing it back to how quickly these things actually happened and you would anticipate we've kind of text it back and forth that we would see closing it sounds like there could be a rebuttal witness or two you would expect closing sometime tomorrow morning correct that's what I would reasonably expect I mean I know judges in Wisconsin like to use every available minute they don't like to waste juror's time but considering that they're ahead of schedule well ahead of schedule at this point um given the the fact that they're not going to want to have the jury deliberate late into the evening or at least give them an opportunity to come in fresh I would expected to be tomorrow and that is Eric Nelson criminal defense attorney here in the Twin Cities helping us out as we try to process and make sense of what is an enormous day uh in that Apple River stabbing trial inside judge Waterman's s Croy County Circuit Court Eric thank you so much why don't you stick around and we'll see you later this afternoon uh again we are on lunch break for another 15 minutes or so before we see the parties in court uh witness testimony specifically the defendant Nikolai Miu expected to resume around 1:00 although with these legal issues uh to be taken up they may not squeeze that all into that 15-minute window but we will continue to monitor the courtroom feed uh for now I want to go back to uh uh something that played earlier in the day because some of our viewers I noticed uh kind of joined us during the middle of Nikolai miu's testimony uh but one thing uh that the state was able to enter was a fully videotaped interrogation that St Croy County Sheriff's Office lieutenant Randy Hart did with Nikolai Miu shortly after his arrest about 4 hours later he's jailed he's under arrest he doesn't explicitly ask for an attorney and he makes a statement by my count or my calculation it goes a little bit less than one hour in time it really sets the stage here for his remaining testimony so let's now go back and watch Nikolai mw's videotaped recorded interrogation from July 30th 2022 hi there are you Nick yeah hi Nick my name is Brandy hi I'm a lieutenant with the S C County Sheriff's Office okay um you got some water right thank okay thank you have you had anything to eat no okay let me uh can I will wait for now food are you sure I'm not hungry okay well if you get hungry yeah just let these guys know okay or let me know when I can very very thir yeah I bet on the river drinking beer all day and not drinking any water and it hot and being in the sun all day doesn't matter if you're drinking beer sometimes just uh and then this yeah so I would imagine you have some questions for me um I am just going to go through the right form and you know let you know if you want to answer any of my questions we'll talk about that um I'm going to record our conversation if you're okay with that of course um let's see today is the 30th of July and it is 7503 p.m. how do you spell your first name n i c o l a e okay and last name and no middle name no middle name okay and what's your last name m i how do you spell how do you pronounce that me okay and what's your birthday do you like to be called Nikolai or Nick or Nick okay yeah um December 11th 1969 okay so that makes you 52 52 thank you what's your address Nick 5945 Hidden Oaks Circle East holy cats that's a m Hidden Oak Circle I don't even know if I have enough space in theast southeast oh Southeast thank you forting no problem and that's Prior Lake Prior Lake okay what say the code in Prior Lake 55372 okay and how about a phone number for you next 612 735 6317 6317 and I understand you you're married to Sandy right okay um is she okay she is yeah she I did talk to her I talked to her for quite a while um I brought her to get dry clothes where is she um she is with Ernesto and Amy okay good they're taking good care of and then uh TI my puppy uh she's headed home to take care of the dog okay um and she's also with uh Ariel and uh girlfriend oh God I don't even know is it Tatiana no Tatiana Tatiana is another girl okay but she's not hold on they gave me yes oh Sandy didn't know Ariel's girlfriend's name neither okay but anesto and Amy came to to where I was with Sandy and they went and got the car but I had brought Sandy to the car to she was driving right no she was up with me I brought her from the river to the car so she could get clothes and we brought the cooler back and put that in the car um so she's got all the stuff all right are you working anywhere now M okay where do you work I work at reach engineering as a mechanical engineer and what what kind of engineering what mechanical engineer yeah what's the name of your employer oh REI r i t c h i e Engineering in bring 55 427 I think it is okay what was the last day that you completed I have a bachelor's and I have actually two degrees one in engineering one in mathematics wow and I'm I Closs away from a masters and both I'm not a gan I never run never had a run with a lot when I got the world that uh so where did you get your uh degrees from your undergraduate sou state univers that the Bison no the ja rabit okay Brooking um and how are your master's degree where are you working on I'm not I'm not working on it yet okay yeah I did pass the EIT so I could work for the state as a li engineer but I haven't had a chance to do that for many years I worked as a contractor Contracting engineer then for the past 16 years I've been working with uh Richie engineering where I met Sandy okay what uh what does Richie engineering do like what do they manufacture what do we do we do uh hbac service equipment okay basically we're the the top tier of hbh were like the top brand uh and top brand for that is yellow jacket okay and it's that for the park the the brand of the yeah yeah everything we we make there we make make it under the Yellow Jacket brand got it but the company uh name is Richie engineering okay so what I do I do everything from hoses recovery machines all the electronics I talk to customers I uh get business I do the documentation the design it's a small company so I like to do everything testing evaluation um you name it you 16 years over there and that's not even that's not even scratching the surface well I have bigger dreams now shattered but anyway I don't want to talk about them I know okay I don't know exactly what happened I just don't I I can't talk I I need to go one step at a time yep and if you have any questions along the way Nick just stop and ask me okay or if you need to take a break just how bad is it well can we get through this form and ask question I just I don't want to I want to maintain the Integrity of this investigation and your right and you know so I want to get through this form and then we can ask questions okay so I'm going to turn this around um I'll give you this pen what I'll have you do is I'm going to read each uh you you seem to speak excellent English you can read yeah Miranda Miranda Right which have not been read to me when I was put in the car and that's okay as long as they weren't asking you any questions they don't need to oh but I'd like to ask these questions so that's why we're going to go through this right now okay so I'll let you have that pen and so I'm going to read these to you okay you have the right to remain silent or just uh uh you can check mark it or some people put their initials you know we'll have you signed at the bottom so that however you want to do that anything you say can be used against you in court or other proceedings you have the right to consult an attorney before making any statement or answering any question and you may have him or her present with you during questioning okay and also me I talk B I was going to ask you about this one so yep how when do I see one when do I get one assigned to me you would get one assigned to you the the soonest uh would be on Monday oh so that would be the the soonest um and working hourss pretty much it's all that works okay so if you cannot afford to pay attorney may be eligible to be represented by an attorney from The Office of the State public defender if you desire an attorney from that office you should contact their local office and and that information would be provided to me or yes um so what happens is uh they we actually the jail provides that information every day to the public defender's office like here's who's on the list okay so some people come into jail and they uh either have a lawyer already because because of other things or they know a lawyer or they're going to find their own so these guys will let you use the phone if that's I will asky to look for me that's okay oh go yeah yeah because I don't I'm not going to see you in talk no that's fine if you decide to answer questions now with or without an attorney you still have the right to stop the questioning at any time or stop the questioning for the purpose of Consulting an attorney yeah like to do it that at some point okay you can just check mark that we went over that however you may wave the right to remain silent and you may answer questions now without an attorney you can just check mark that I read that to you you're not agreeing to anything right now this is just that I that I stated these things to you so this says the above rights have been read to me I have initial of each paragraph or your case check mark to show that I understand each of my rights I have received a copy of this form so after you sign it and then I'm going to sign it Nick and then I'm going to give you a copy of it all right here and I've got 801 all right okay I sorry do you want me to write it regular okay no I get I get so caught up in uh used to that yeah my friends don't like it cuz in my vehicle my own vehicle that I drive it's military time and so they're always asking me I have is military cuz I came from Europe and oh they call it military but it's not military it's right it's the the proper time exactly well good at least then you know what it you know what it needs then when I put the time on there like that um so I would like to ask you questions about your day today what happened uh you know like how how you guys got to be on the Apple River today and then like what your day was like um it's up to you if you're willing to answer questions if you decide that yep I'll answer questions right now and in 10 minutes you don't want to answer anymore you just need to tell me that okay and if you don't want to answer questions right now then that's fine too and I will leave it it's up to you all I can say it was a it was selfdefense self-defense there are lots of people that came on to me self-defense and they produced two weapons one I took from them okay that's the only thing I can tell and they were they hit me and they were on top of me and that's I don't remember anything after that I just remember I ran away I ran away to my to my uh group there were actually people coming over from my group to see what was going on I said nothing nothing nothing and just get back and and and they kept asking and I said nothing nothing I didn't explain to them anything because I I was I was so fearful I didn't know what these people will be doing to us I've never been in a situation like this where people produce weapons on and they were saying they were calling um don't I I don't remember but they said don't run don't don't run from us don't do this you're a child more less you are this and he said are you people drunk or you're child molester I said the only thing I remember is in my mind is if I'm a child molester should you be drinking should you be drinking alcohol and and doing what you're doing to people that you don't even know attacking them and I said if if I'm a child more lesser you should be having alcohol you know and and they took my and you've been watching cop of The I'm going to be quiet right now just go right into judge Waterman's courtroom through my judicial assistant told me to stop reading and that the state no longer intends to use it that's correct so is there anything else to discuss can I just have a brief moment yes just not for the court no all right thanks for coming back so early all right we're in recess for another 15 minutes JY won't be back until 1 okay I thought you wanted to start I'm going to double all right well we apologize to you for that false alarm obviously a little fits and starts in a in a trial nothing uh shocking or surprising about that but it did catch us off guard we were playing uh the videotaped interrogation of Nikolai Miu uh in jail uh several hours after the deadly uh stabbing encounter on the river uh you know as the state has pointed out he told stories there he made up uh accounts he he lied uh said he didn't have a knife and obviously now with him on the stand uh they can begin repairing what he told the investig ators uh Lieutenant Brandy Hart there uh during the interrogation the defense tried hard to keep that whole entire interrogation out as we've talked about he said when do I get access to an attorney when will an an attorney be here when can I get an attorney and he was told you know Monday morning it was Saturday he thought perhaps you have to wait for the weekend and then he gave that uh it ends up going more than an hour but the state only showed about an hour's worth of recording I believe they stopped uh when he had to go to the restroom but uh a lot of damning testimony in there if you're looking for it in the way uh Miu told the story in the immediate aftermath uh throughout he did not know that there was video of what had occurred he was eventually shown a photograph on his cell phone from the cockfield video and you could see in his head there at least by my uh um observation uh that he then began to realize that there could be uh more to um the evidence of what actually took place uh during that deadly confrontation of course we watched him react a very human reaction when he learned somebody had died of course that uh that person was Isaac Schuman at this point we're about 10 minutes away from getting the jury back in Nikolai Miu would then returned to the stand under oath uh and his attorney Aaron Nelson would continue with direct examination so while we wait on that what we've done is we've gone back and kind of queued up uh some testimony from him this morning morning I know not everybody watches every second of our gel to gavel coverage here on our fox9 digital platforms so let's go back we highlighted some key moments and again a point of emphasis here so much attention the questioning on his encounter sort of face Toof face uh between um himself and Madison Cohen with Riley Madison right next to him who touches who first who escalates the confrontation into something physical let's listen into the testimony get you right back out to the courthouse by 1:00 the noise became garbled I mean the the sound became garble did you feel threatened at that point uh yes did you have your knife in your right hand yes what did you do with your left hand tell us what you did with your left hand yeah I uh yeah with so with with my left hand I uh pushed her away from my face can you show us what you did with your left hand why' you do that she was very close to my face she was in my personal space she has been had been there for a while and uh I felt threatened were you did you intend to harm her in some way no did you try to harm her in some way absolutely not do you know where if at all you had contact with her body when you raised your left hand in that manner no I lied about the knife was that your knife yes it is it was did you bring it with you uh when you went to go uh look for the phone yes I did when you went to go look for the phone did you have any intent to harm anybody no why' you go leave your group to go look for the phone okay at some point did you have some contact with a a group of uh teenagers yes um and you were here in court when we uh saw the n9c video is that right yes I want to show you just a a couple of slides from that if I could do you uh you see those slides up there yes are those from that video yes what are you uh doing in those three slides in general I was scanning the water looking for the phone okay and are you in that position are you walking up River or down river up River away from the uh from that group of uh boys did you hear them say some things to you yes prior to your walking up River and them uh did you hear those words that I have written on that slide yes prior to your hearing those words when you were walking up River had you had verbal contact with that group I think so they asked me what I was looking for and I told them I'm I'm looking for a phone a lost phone did you ever tell them that you were looking for little girls no were you looking for little girls absolutely not that's pathetic um when you at the end of this when you you watch the video at the end of the video where I'm not going to play it but do you remember what you did right there at the end at the end I was walking away okay did you eventually turn around and face in the direction of the group that was yelling at you and calling you a raper yes when you yes e I'll sustain the objection uh the question was leading please continue what did you do at the end of the video I was walking away it's some point did you ever become in a position where you uh were looking at that group of teenagers that had yelled at you yes um what did you see when you were looking at that group of teenagers after the end of this video I uh saw them I saw one of them holding a a phone in a bag um and I believed it was what I was looking for so I turned around and I started approaching him why did you approach them I wanted to get a closer look at the phone to see if it was the one that was uh that belonged to arel do you remember what Madison did if anything to you yeah what did she do she grabbed my right arm and she pulled me towards her I lost my balance so I moved towards her did you consider that in that circumstance to be a gentle or a gracious touch no there was not a gracious touch no not at all had she been using any gentle or gracious words with you not that no not that I remember um in those f phot can we see the Footwear that you were wearing on that day yep those sandals that we saw earlier did you have confidence in your footing in that area with those sandals objection leading sustained how did you feel about your footing in that area very unstable uh want to show you a next set of slides here uh do you remember uh what you say to Madison after she um pulled on your right arm yeah I told her not to touch me and why did you tell her that because she pulled on me without my my invitation um were you did you say that in any particular tone no not in a mean tone but I I made it sound so she could hear me don't touch me okay why didn't you want her to touch you I didn't give her permission to do so sure but why did you not want to give her permission to do so because she was one mind one track mind she just wanted to get me away from that point me down river and tell me to go there what's your comfort level at this point um on a scale from 1 to to 10 Comfort level is very low okay are you um if you had that same a scale of like a fear scale a 1 to 10 fear scale right and so with 10 being the most fearful you've ever been in your life and and zero let's call 0o to 10 being the most safe you've ever felt where are you at here on a fear scale in that particular yeah about one okay so you're more uncomfortable but not necessarily afraid is that what I understand correct at um where was your group in relation to you then was up River and did you do anything in order uh in relation to your group yep what did you do I I turned to them and I I uh called them I was trying to call them to to come over and help me is are these slides does this 2127 2140 2131 what does that show you doing I was waving at them and calling them to to come over when you say you were calling them did you do something physical or did you something something verbal or did you do both physical did you make any verbal comments at that point no why not it was very loud all around me was very loud I don't think that anybody could have heard me 10 and something feet away with everybody else yelling did you think your yelling was going to deescalate or escalate the situation uh when everybody's uh uh uh raising their voice I don't think having another raised voice would help the situation and good afternoon again thank you for joining us for our live gav to gavel coverage of the Apple River stabbing trial from Hudson Wisconsin I am Paul Bloom in h the fox9 streaming Center you can see we have one camera on Me One camera on the state seal of Wisconsin uh something we've become familiar with over the last seven days days or so uh we are waiting awaiting the parties returned to the courtroom if you're with us about 15 minutes ago the parties came in they thought they had some legal matters uh to discuss it turns out the state um excuse me rescinded whatever uh it had wanted to talk about or get on the record or clear up before getting into the cross- examination of Nikolai Miu uh so the parties quickly uh exited the courtroom and now we're just basically waiting for the jury to get their full one hour lunch we have hit 1:00 on the nose here in our Central Time Zone and we will uh continue to monitor uh the courtroom for activity uh there is another uh piece of evidence uh probably will become uh important uh this afternoon as the state has talked about cross-examining uh Nikolai Miu on the witness stand and that is a uh conversation he had with the sheriff of St Croy County in the immediate aftermath we've seen some body camera footage uh of him in the back of a squad car I do see the parties moving we may not even get to that video clip but let me just finish my explanation there just so you can anticipate it he's in the back of the squad car the sheriff comes up asks him if he's okay if the temperature's okay in the car and you may remember seeing this clip he he basically says yeah he's fine and then there's sort of an off to Cuff conversation like oh I heard there was stabbing and I heard there was something about a stabbing meu says on body camera footage and the sheriff says yeah and then Miu responds basically and I heard I look like the suspect and then the body camera was shut off for the jury because there were elements there where the judge had ruled there wasn't an official arrest he hadn't been mirandized anything that comes after that in that conversation is out of bounds the jury doesn't get to hear it but you may have heard during testimony this morning the state now plans to introduce it as impeachment type evidence so we may see the full two and a half minutes with Sheriff kudon we don't have time to play play for you right here uh right now as judge Waterman is standing for his jury to come back in again 14 uh adults from across St Cy County sitting in judgment eventually two will go home 12 will deliberate Nikolai Miu will be back on the stand in mere moments please stay with us throughout this afternoon this high as fold today all right uh Mr M would you please retake the witness stand you are still under oath Mr Nelson thank you can I have the screen Mr mu when we finished I think we were getting to the chronological space that we had begun the morning on and so I want to start from there again and then move forward from there does that make sense yes when I had asked you before you talked about how you felt but since that time you've told the jury that you had this fear scale okay MH so at I want to ask you about at this time what we see here what you previously described the scene right mhm how were you feeling on the fear scale about the 67 okay and at some point I think you told them before but just so we can put it into the context here did you do something in response to something that was done to you when you're standing there in this moment yes uh after uh um I was pushed and and both sides I would say you know squeezed I um I was afraid so I pulled off my knife okay did you do something with your left hand at some point yes I did what did you do with your left hand I pushed her away I push medison push medison away when you was the purpose in that to have contact with her and to get her to back up yes did you have a purpose to cause her pain no were you trying to hurt her no what were you trying to do I was trying to push her away from my space she was right in my space my face could you back why didn't you just back up I couldn't back up at that moment okay when you say you couldn't back up did why not cuz you felt uncomfortable or were you objection leading because I would have wait wait there's objection sustained un leading next question wasn't done with it you uncomfortable or was there a wall behind you or was there some other reason why did you feel like you couldn't back up I didn't feel uh feel uh safe turning my back on on those people okay how about just did taking a step backwards well I was standing my ground I didn't move towards anybody okay you're coming at me when they when you raised your left hand and you did that do you recall when you pushed her away having contact with her I may have yes okay do you remember in particular where if at all you touched her no okay would it surprise you if you touched her no was that in fact your purpose in pushing her away absolutely okay she was in my space I want to move forward here at and you can turn this slide off I guess at after you did that right did you did something happen to you yeah did people do something to you yeah what was done to you yeah almost right away I got punched and fell in water where did you get punched on my face on my side of the head now you've had a chance to watch this video correct yes have you had a chance to see these 4,800 slides yes prior to seeing that did you remember everything no have the video or the slides helped you to refresh your memory in some way a lot have you remembered everything because you've seen that not everything no okay do you remember something different than what you see in the video no you don't remember any of the things different than that you see in the video like you talked about the goggles leading over rule we're just trying to reorient the witness to a place where examination can continue are there sometimes when your memory is different from what the video is yes of course okay now this series that I want to show you is about things that were done to you okay yes do you have a specific memory about everything that was done to you no do you have a specific memory about everything that you did in response to what was done to you no do you have a memory about how you felt in those moments I would say yes I do um do you have a memory of what you believed in those moments based upon those feelings of course so I want to show you the the slide here and this is slide 2661 2662 and 2681 that's fine do you remember how you felt when you fell back into the water I was uh number one I was stunned uh that's why I fell backwards I was very afraid of course on this fear scale that you've talked about before where are you on that scale from 0 to 10 right at the top 10 have you ever been at that 10 before in your life never been in a situation like this or a f F in my life have you ever been at a 10 never um when you did that it as we see on the right what happened to your head oh um well I uh fell in water obviously that's a river and I hit my head on uh on River Rock and uh my whole body went under it well okay my head went under waterer when you say your head went under is that what it felt like yes did you feel water come over your face my entire hold on what's the objection bleeding sustain where did you feel the water on your body over my face my my mouth I felt like I was submerged in water at the moment did you try to get up yes why' you want to get up why didn't you just lay down there peacefully in the water to drown no I wouldn't want to do that I wanted to get up out of the water at that moment when you're down in the water had anybody like AJ Martin come up to you and said just lay there and rest uh somebody came from behind yes I found out later who he was and pushed me down and to keep me in the water before that when you tried to get up do you remember feeling anything before that did you you told them yeah did you feel anything to any part of your head yes of course what did you feel felt the punched in the in the head showing you the next slides is that 20 701 2705 2706 what's happening to you there I I'm getting hit on on the head how many times at that point is your memory of watching the video and your memory of experiencing this have you been hit in the head now but either by people or by the ground or by the water four times at least okay at this point in time where's your fear scale at 10 when this happened to you did you immediately get up or did you fall back in the water or did something else happen I tried getting up but I couldn't did you at some point did you feel something on your backside there was somebody pushing me down and when you felt that on your backside did you feel anything else anywhere else I got hit in the face in the front of my head and is that um exhibit here 2147 do you see that hand through the underarm there yes do you remember getting hit in the head there yes was that a gentle hit no when you're getting hit in the head here again where are you at on the fear scale at that point then have you been able to get up out of the water no how many people do you know how many people are attacking you at the time I didn't know but I I knew there were more than I could handle did it feel like it was how many did people did it feel like like 10 okay you've seen the video and you responded at some point is that right yes and you used your knife in response yes why did you use your knife I feared for my life did you think could get out of there without using your knife I couldn't even get up you're pushing me down no so the answer is no in that time when you're down on the ground did you think there was a way for you to escape no did you feel like you could just crawl away or run away or walk away or do anything else to escape not in that position the next day after this July 31st were you in the uh did you feel how did your body feel the next day I hurt everywhere my head hurt my throat hurt uh obviously my back hurt I hurt everywhere you said your throat hurt is that something you remembered that day before when you were were speaking with Brandy Hart yes okay yes did you mention it to Brandy Hart I don't remember okay have did did you see anything when you felt the pain about your throat did you see anything that refreshed your memory about what caused that pain to your throat after watching the video yes okay what happened I got hit in the in the throat do you remember that now yes if I can showing you the slides 2993 2994 and 2997 is that you yes what's happening to you there somebody is going for my throat squeezing my throat do you remember how that felt I felt pain I couldn't breathe scared afraid and showing you the next set of slides here 2998 99 and 3000 what did you think was going to happen to you in that moment the whole time I I I felt like I was going to die so he basically I feared for my life and in response to that here slide 3000 did you do something in response to that I reached out and uh and stabbed them when you used your knife and again this is open-ended you can ask it anywhere you want did you were you trying to kill somebody absolutely not um what were you trying to do I was just trying to defend myself after this was again we've seen the video you talk to investigator heart so I want to ask you a little bit about that for a moment make sense mhm do you independently well let me see you've watched the video here in court correct yes and you watched the video prior to that we've watched it together right yes does watching that video refresh your memory do you have an independent memory of that conversation with investigator Hart no do you remember what it is you said other than seeing things on the video other than uh I lied about the knife that's what I remember you know after yeah I lied about the knife do you remember actually saying that in that moment or you just remember seeing that and that's what you remember seeing I remember seeing it in the video okay do you remember how you were feeling during that time at all you have any memory about that not much okay just one other thing out of the timeline here since that time have you we've heard testimony you have a twin brother yes is he here in the courtroom yes objection relevance your honor I overall debate continue just briefly because I want to ask you about conversations that you may have had with your twin brother just briefly how do you feel about your twin brother I love him objection that's irrelevant your honor during this time have you had conversations with your twin brother yes do you consider there to be anybody that you're really maybe your wife anybody you're closer to than your twin brother no the you and your twin brother when you speak what language do you speak in Romanian why do you speak in Romanian with your twin brother it's the easiest way to find words to describe what we're thinking okay is that where you grow up that's the first language um are there times when you've spoke with your brother that you've talked about this what happened to you on the river yes is your memory about what you did or what was done to you is it any better when you talk to your brother than it is when you talk about it other times no are you always getting it right no how about your feelings your memory about your feelings MH do you get those right yes but almost all the time I the feeling is imprinted in my my my heart my soul my mind let me just for a moment I'll bring us back to the river on July 30th okay mhm at some I think you'd said on the video and maybe you testified that people attacked you is that right correct at some point did people stop attacking you no at some point did people stop attacking you yes okay yeah when people stopped attacking you what did you do I walk away okay why didn't you stay oh God uh I I walked away towards my group where it was safe I was afraid of the people I just had contact with when you're walking away where and you've talked about this fear scale where are you on the fear scale does it just go down right to zero does it stay at 10 does something else happen no as soon as I saw the the people I trusted my fear uh level started creeping down when you say creeping down when you're walking back can you give us a where are you on that scale as I was getting closer to my group The Fear Factor is going lower and lower but when you first start walking back what's the number value about eight when you get back to the tubes what's the number level about four five at I think we didn't talk about it we've talked a little bit about your body response during this mhm brief time when you start walking back how's your body responding to you I had cramps I uh felt like I lost I I had diarrhea so I felt like I lost my ball was that which I did was that when you were walking back or was that when you were in that 10 seconds of things happening to you and you responding I was when when the the action was going on in the 10c frame you got diarrhea yes um when you were walking back yeah what else is your body what are you feeling with your body well heartbeat is getting uh when I'm walking back the heartbeat was very very high now it's going down a little bit breathing you know that's what I remember remember I I was super super stress how about your head is you're going back is your head clear is your head in a different state how can you describe like what's going on in your head my head was in a fog it was like thick fog I I couldn't think I couldn't realize what what what I've been through were you trying to make sense of it I was trying but there was no sense to be made I was completely confused and in a fog and when you walked away you had the knife in your hand is that right yep when you got to your group did you still have the knife no what happened to the to the knife uh I on the way back I tossed it on the on the bank and you just made with your right hand kind of a underhand motion yeah with your right hand from you know at your side raising up to maybe level with you is that fair representation of what you were describing correct why' you toss the knife I don't know I was afraid I felt like I had to throw it away what were you afraid of at that point I was overwhelmed with with just fear you know residual feel Fe here and I didn't want to have anything to do with that okay we've heard testimony that eventually you get back to the tubes does that happen yeah do you where's your memory about that right now as you sit here because we don't have a video about that we don't have photos of that is there what's your memory like about that barely remember anything okay do you remember talking to people I remember people trying to talk to me but I don't know I don't remember what I said okay you've heard some testimony about things that you might have said are you denying you said any of those things no do you know what you said after watching the video yes the video isn't of I'm confused would you the tubes there's no video of you at the tubes when you say oh uh after well after were you talking about Brandy Hart statement yes yes okay about what you said to the people at the tubes do you have any memory of that no okay when you're sitting there at the tubes how are you feeling in your head you talked about this fog right if you can put that on a scale where is that I still couldn't my my head was in a thick Cloud I couldn't understand what what just happened still trying to process everything I was overwhelmed did you think at any point you were just casual about what had happened no did this feel casual to you in any way no at some point uh you saw the video here you had contact with the police is that right yes um you had sat in the back of a squad car of the sheriff canson is that right yes do you remember much of anything about that no do you remember you've seen some of the videos today can you tell us what do you remember nothing okay nothing at all how about a feeling do you remember a feeling at all yeah I was very still very afraid okay when you say very afraid what were you afraid of at that point well I just seen I've been through a horror situation but uh in their present I wasn't that afraid but I was stunned I don't remember much about it do you remember watching the video here in court when the police were talking about a guy with the bat oh yeah do you remember anything about that uh a little bit do you remember how you that made you feel oh yeah I I I felt very afraid of him very afraid we watched the video of you with um sheriff canut and that was about 23 seconds long do you remember that yeah have you watched a longer portion of that video with your attorney I don't remember okay do you remember saying more things to sheriff Canon after that I don't remember okay that's fine um we saw a video here about your uh being arrested and told that you were arrested for homicide did you remember that after watching the video memory came back but I don't remember that okay that's true when you when you're talking with either at some point you go and you meet with investigator Hart is that right yeah when they were talking about homicides and injuries can you tell me what you were what's your mindset did that make sense to you did you understand that no I I couldn't make any sense of anything that she was telling me I just couldn't make sense of it okay plus I don't remember the the the meeting with her okay right now as you H here you're like I don't remember that right the feelings now some of the times that you talk with Brandy Hart you talk about what you saw happening or heard happening or what you did do you remember that yes yeah do you get all of that right no your feelings when you're talking about your feelings about and how you believed and your fear I I I I feared for my life that's one thing I can't deny I that's embedded in my head forever I feared for my life I know that I have nightmares about it you you've talked to or yeah tell us about those nightmares I have them every night what what happens in those nightmares objection your it's irrelevant it's his nightmares are irrelevant fact that he had them maybe but not the content can I appr [Music] yes e e for e e e e Nick I want to ask you some questions about those nightmares okay just to put it in just this tight little box of okay you've had nightmares yes and the nightmares have been about what happened to you on the Apple River when you were attacked correct and the nightmares are essentially a replan of what it is that happened agreed correct and when you have those nightmares your body responds on approach yes e let's continue Nick those nightmares that you've had about what happened on July 30th have you sought medical treatment for that yes just a couple of I want to just make sure we check a couple of legal boxes okay when you used the knife did you believe you were under attack yes why because they at that point they've they've already been pushing and tugging and when you used the knife had they done anything more than pushing or tugging did you they punch me they they they pushed me down they they they threw me in the water I hit my head yes so when you decided to use your knife were you using it to prevent an attack or stop the attack that was happening to defend myself um did you believe you needed to use that knife absolutely in that moment in time again as you've described it they've pushed you down into the water you've been punched that's the moment of time I want to ask you about okay yeah and that moment of time when you were down in the water did you believe you could Escape no what do you believe would have happened to you had you not used your knife I would have died I believe I would have been killed that day why that specific time why' you use your knife to defend myself those are the only questions I have judge it's just messed up I can approach judge you've been drinking that day right yeah I had a exhibit 12a you recognize that yes that's the group photo of you you folks from the beginning of the river yep in fact you're holding a beer correct looks like everybody in your group has some sort of alcoholic beverage looks like it you see numerous people at your group with these phone cases around their necks yeah and as you're going down the river you saw lots of people with phone cases around their necks right mhm all day long yeah in fact um R Edge sells or rents out those phone cases right I don't know that did people in your group rent or buy phone cases from the tubal I have no idea right you've testified that you were told to bring the knife before you left your home right correct and the reason for bringing your knife on the river was to cut strings or ropes for the tubes right correct and that was that was the reason you brought it correct in fact you told the police that after your tubes were tied together you thought you put your knife back in the car correct correct but in fact it was in your pocket yes was it in your pocket the whole day no all right well we're going to get to that once the tubes are tied together with the rope and you said that you thought that you put it back in your car you don't have a reason to have the knife anymore right it accomplished its purpose right I didn't know that at the time all right did you tell the cops that the police that you didn't think you were going to need it and that's why you thought you put it in the car I may have all right uh were you present when uh Steve Kaufman who owns River's Edge testified first day of trial yes and you heard him say that they they sell pre-cut cords for a dollar right right all right and then as you see in the picture when you got on the river you were wearing that long sleeve camel shirt right mhm a hat and sunglasses correct all right Ariel's phone was in one of those those cases right sure yeah yeah I can see it all right and is it your understanding that those cases are float cases that's what I was told all right and you told in fact you told Lieutenant Hart that it was in a float case right correct once the phone disappeared there was conversation amongst the folks in your group about whether it was even worth it to go look for it right that's what I learned and in fact you were told that they didn't care about the lost phone because they had insurance to cover it right that's what I learn here but I don't remember that as a conversation nobody asked you to go look for the phone right correct you chose to do that on your own I volunteered and in fact members of your group were a little annoyed that you were stopping again so so quickly after having been at the Hideaway where you had stopped for lunch objection speculation sustained did you hear anybody in your group say why are we stopping again I didn't stop the group the group stopped when you decided to go off on your own to look for this phone right speculation over R right they already stopped I got off the tube to look for the so I didn't stop them in any event you're the one who insisted on looking for it nobody asked you to do that right suain and when you left to go look for the phone you had your goggles and your snorkel right you knew that the phone was in a float bag at least that's what you told police afterwards right mhm is that a yes yes so the bag the phone and the float bag would have been floating right supposedly yeah all right and so you wouldn't need a snorkeling goggles to find a a phone Flo floating on top of the water right I wasn't sure if it was actually floating or not never tested it all right well you would agree that a phone has some weight to it yes and if it wasn't a float bag it would sink to the bottom right yes where it was dropped correct well or remember it's a river so it could have flown down the river has current right right approach I'm going to draw something here yes now you remember when you met with Lieutenant har you drew a diagram above the river all right and this is your group up here at The Sandbar right mhm this is the boys group down here I'll put initials is for Isaac Schuman right correct this is what you this is the diagram that you wrote Drew for uh Lieutenant Hart the phone was lost over here right mhm instead of looking Downstream for it where the current was going you went this way way across the current no to look for the phone you made contact with Isaac schuman's group on the other side of the river but that's that's that's not where I started looking for it straight across the river that's where you ended up making contact with I ended up there but I didn't start there all right the phone would not have floated across the current right well I don't know where he lost it that's where we pulled over he could have lost it uh minutes before we even uh anchored so when you testified a minute ago that the phone was lost where your group was labeled M now you're changing that story in that vicinity again uh members of the jury what the attorneys say is not evidence rely on the witness's testimony next question please in any of event it's your testimony that you had reason to go over to the south side of the river where Isaac sh group was to look for a phone that's your story I had reason to search in that area I didn't know where that phone fell in the water I don't think even Ariel knew where he lost it we didn't drop the phone when we anchored we dropped the he dropped the phone before we got there fair to say that at that point in the river the river is 150 ft wide yep and Isaac schuman's group was on the south side of the river correct your group's on the north side of the river 100 feet rather than searching the north side you went to the south side of the river is that fair to say I what you looked in the in that area that's not what I'm asking you went over to the south side of the river right asked and answer overruled you can answer the question you did right what was that question you went over to the south side of the river to supposedly look for this phone right I ended up there at that point yes and you chose to go over there and look for it where these boys were asked and answered you can answer the question oh you chose to go over to where these boys were to look for supposedly look for this phone right I chose to look in that area yes there was other areas of the river where there these boys weren't located that you could have searched until they floated B past right a million other spots sure but you chose to go to that spot I didn't even notice those boys there at the time when I was searching you were president in court when Eric Williams who was a member of your group testified right right you heard him testify yes and you were here when he testified that he had some concerns about you going over to snorkel by this group Isaac's group I heard him and one of his concerns is that he thought that they would think you were a predator right irrelevant sustained he testified that you didn't have your knife in your pocket the whole time right correct when you decided to a snorkel over by Isaac schuman's group you had the knife in your pocket yes did you go back to your group and get it no I had the knife I testified I did not have the knife in my pocket the whole time when we pulled over there I fixed my shoes then I left it in my pocket all right but somehow so when you get ready to snorkel yes you've got you've taken off your shirt right yes your hat yes your sunglasses is correct you left the knife in your pocket I forgot it in my pocket well on the video we can see you touching your knife right you knew it was in your pocket well when you walk it starts yeah but it has weight right so you you can't forget it's there because it's got weight correct at some point I forgot I had it in my pocket when yeah you weren't you were not going to need your knife to snorkel and look for a lost phone correct over you weren you weren't going to need your knife for that for that task that you set out to do right I wouldn't even need anything but you brought it with you any all it happened to be in my bucket yes once she got over to where Isaac schuman's group was they made it readily apparent they did not want you over by them correct that's not true they didn't call you names yes but then they asked me what I was looking for and I thought they were polite people I said I'm looking for my lost phone they they did not want you by them and they told you that right at some point yes and that's the short video you turn around and you're walking away right yes but then Joan cockfield calls you a raper right yes and then you turn around yes and you were angry I was not angry oh you were not angry that someone called you a raper no all right you look at Jaan who's filming you right yeah and for some reason your testimony is that even though many people on the river have these phones and these float cases you decided that was the phone phone and you needed to run up and check objection argumentative sustained your testimony earlier was you thought he had the phone right I thought he had the phone yes I wanted to investigate and you instead of walking up and saying hey is that the phone I'm looking for you ran up on these boys didn't you I ran up and stumbled and then I felt right by by their yes that's my next question you're claiming now that you stumbled yes you've never said that before today ever to anybody any law enforcement or anybody else right but I have seen the videos now well we're going to take a look at the video and since you reviewed the video you know that before you ran up on them you were touching your knife in your pocket to make sure it was there right I don't remember that well let's take a look stop back up on that's you with your right hand touching your pocket where your knife was clipped in right it appear so what is he on who hey get away so you're claiming today that where you reach down and grab at these boys' legs where their tubes are that that was a stumble is that your story argumentative overruled you can answer the question I I I know I hit a stone yes but I I I grabbed onto their uh inner tubes and you know where you grabbed onto their inner tube is where two of these boys had their legs draped over their in tubes right I see that and you made contact with their legs didn't you I don't remember that did you see it on the video I see it on the video I don't remember actually making contact and as soon as you did that these boys jumped out of their tubes to get away from you right you remember that yeah and you held on to their tubes so that their tubes couldn't float away for how long well I'm asking you you did yeah it looks like for a brief one second and you were searching through their tubes or what you walked around their tubes rather than letting their tubes go so they could get back in their tubes and be on their way you walked around their tubes so after my goggles dropped into water I went around their tubes to go to the other side and look for for for my goggles let's talk about your goggles for a second because you told the police and specifically Lieutenant Hart that these boys knocked your goggles off your face and that you were looking for your goggles at that point right I don't remember my uh interview with her correct but you heard yourself say it in the interview yes and in fact that nothing of the sort ever happened right so the the interview with with the with the Brandy Hart was not accurate what you said at the time is what you wanted the police to believe happened right that's what I remembered at the time and from the video you can see that you actually put your goggles in your mouth so you would have two free hands to be able to grab onto these boys tubes right yes so you were preparing for your stumble before it actually even happened I wasn't prepared for anything these boys were calling you names to go away right after you grabbed onto their tubes touch their legs I don't remember any of that stuff all right you don't remember them calling you asking you what you were doing watching the videos yes but before but a natural remembering no do you remember as you're running up they're saying whoa whoa whoa what's he doing I don't remember that all right but you've seen it on the video yes and then once you've made contact with two of these boys' legs and grabbed on their tubes they started calling you pedophile right I don't remember when they started calling Meed do you remember them calling you a pedophile at all or do you just know that from watching the video correct you testified that they were calling you names earlier right right and that upset you it did not upset me we've talked your attorney's talked about your comfort scale and your fear scale let's talk about your anger scale okay at the time you were called a raper what was your anger scale at maybe one one out of 10 yeah and that was enough to get you to run up on these boys grab onto them stop their tubes at a one is that what you're saying objection argumented that's not what he said suct you don't like being humiliated right nobody does your attorney has said that these boys were humiliating you objection as to his sustained on the form you're claiming that you were being taunted objection did not testify to that sustained form you had testified earlier that your shoes there was problems with your shoes but as you can see from the portion of the video we played so far that didn't those shoes didn't prevent you from running up on these boys right yes they did that was if I had better shoes you know I could walk better but I I could still walk if you had better shoes you would have been able to run up on them faster no I mean I could walk better I wouldn't stumble I wouldn't have a hard time walking all right we're going to watch the video again and I want you to if you can point out for everybody where you stumbled what is he on whoa whoa who hey get away did you watch it yes so the stumble is that something you remember or something that you think you see in the video something I I remembered after you grabbed onto their tubes stopped them walked around their their tubes you took a few steps down river and stood in the path they were floating in right has the form multiple overall you understand the question Mr mu could you say it again after you left their tubes at first time you took a few steps Downstream and stood in their path where they would need to float where they were floating right for a few seconds yes you didn't walk off to the Southshore which was close at that point right I thought I walked farther far away from them that they I mean I didn't even watch them anymore at that point so I don't know where they were in in uh you know at that point in time but I was still looking for my goggles now are you denying that you stood right in the path of their tubes over you can answer the question at that moment in time yes now when you ran up on these boys and grabbed onto their tubes and made contact with their legs you weren't saying anything at that point right no you didn't say anything like hey I think that's my phone or Ariel's phone I don't remember saying anything you've seen the video right you just ran up and grabbed onto him right it appears that with saying nothing gra the screen we can go up to the screen we're going to look at some more fr here we're starting 22nd Mark I believe you stood in front of their tubes right this is at the 23 Second mark for a brief moment all right keep going stop at that point you had the entire River open to move in any direction right right you chose to just walk a few steps directly Downstream from where their tubes were right correct the boys were yelling at you at this this point right you remember that yep they were making a commotion right they were loud and that attracted the attention of the folks in the Carlson group right um you've testified that Maddie Maddie Cohen walked over right yep you walked towards her yes and the water level at the spot that you had contact with Maddie was about ankle deep the video from the video yes you told Lieutenant har you were standing in really shallow water right yeah Maddie told you to leave the area right she didn't say say it that way but yes she said go go go and she like she swart you too but she was telling you to go right yeah you didn't go I was trying to communicate with her what I was doing in the river you didn't leave right down the riverr over it's relevant you did not leave right time she came up when she came up and said go go go you chose to stay right I wanted to talk you didn't like that she was yelling at you right I only had like two or three seconds of of of of direct verbal or whatever you clearly like you clearly didn't like she was swearing at you right and what you told her was not that you were looking for a phone but that these boys took your goggles right I don't remember what I told if it's on the video did you say it if it's on the video you never mentioned you were looking for a phone I don't remember my conversation in fact after you told her that they took your goggles you never said another word right after to that you're right of course I did um talking about your anger scale at the point where Maddie Cohen was yelling at you and pointing at you and swearing at you where was your anger scale one and even with your anger scale being only one you started touching fidgeting with the knife in your pocket right I don't remember that let's take a look at the video uh we're ready it's it's time stamp 1:35 that's you touching your knife in your pocket right correct and at this point you've got your back to the two girls who were yelling at you right it's possible so even though you were fearing for your life not he said at that time overall let's get the question out you turned your back on these folks right where am I in that uh uh location as reference to the other people I get to ask the questions at this point okay all right you're back at the at the 135 Mark that we just watched you've turned your back on these folks right okay is that is that true yes I see right you're touching your knife but you got your back to them right I see that in a picture keep going and so at that point you wouldn't have turned your back on these folks if you had fear of them right objection mischaracterizes his testimon overruled overruled he can answer the question yes e we'll play a next question please we're going to play a clip here judge and go back we're starting at 126 just play it we can have the screen stop stopping at 135 So In that clip that's the point where you had waved at your friends right you had turned your back on the the groups of people that were in the area and you're touching your knife right and at that point you called out to your friends because you were I think you had said and maybe I'm wrong that your fear scale was going up at that point is that not right I see lots of people around me and I wanted somebody to be on my side right your your fear scale was going up so you tried to wave your buddies over right creeping up yeah and as it's creeping up you're fting with your knife it appears that way at some point and even though your fear level is creeping up at that point and you've called for help from your friends or at least waved for help you turned your back back right yes at one point you turn your head and you stare at the group of 17-year-old boys right do you remember doing that I don't remember but if I see a video put it into context it would have been at the point when Maddie Cohen tried to turn you away from those boys do you remember doing that yeah and one second if we can get the frame up we a time stamp 116 that's the look that you gave to those boys right at that time at 116 yes that's look on your face yeah that's an angry look not to me I was annoyed more than frustrated but not angry at the point where you you looked at the boys with that expression on your face whatever it was you had the entire River in front of you open to walk to right that's true correct and instead you chose to turn back around where Maddie Cohen was right I stood my ground I basically stayed in the same location right I didn't go towards anybody at that point you didn't take a step away either did you no and at that point then that's when Riley Madison joins her and you've got Madison and Riley standing in front of you right I suppose that's the time yeah two girls yeah and these two girls standing in front of you touched your shoulders somewhat right you never said a yes yes you never stumbled backwards or anything like that it wasn't a somewhat but well let's take a look at the video we're going to start a little bit earlier than the part I wanted to start at it's 135 it's at the 135 Mark again if we can put this screen up you take the screen down starting at 134 so at that point you're touching your knife before Maddie and Riley are standing in front of you right appears that way stop you had said that your fear level was Rising mhm you wave up to your friends right that was the look on your face at the time correct mhm you're smiling I'm confused you're smiling I'm confused you're not smiling that's not a smile yes let's move on please turn the screen off can we get the screen back stop all right so you had been fidgeting with your knife multiple times you've got Riley Madison in front of you I believe her testimony was it's 115b woman you got MADD Cohen on your other side this is when you choose to pull out your knife right form over understand the question what does her way have to do with the me sir you don't get to ask the questions at this point you pulled out your knife at this point with these two girls standing in front of you right yes and you held it down by your belt belt line right yes and you open it up right yes and this is before you had been punched or anything like that you had that knife ready with these two girls standing in front of you objection as use of the term girls or women women Pardon Me Right mhm and you didn't hold it up and say hey I have a knife right to me that would be a threat I'm not asking you that you did not hold it up no and you didn't in fact you held it down by your side right asked an answer over isn't that what you did yes you didn't take a step back and brandish it and say hey back up I have a knife right correct you opened it down low and then you held it down low by your side right correct and as you're doing that you're smiling right that's not a smile well let's take a look at the video I'm I'm overwhelmed and the Noid and that's you holding your Knife Down by your belt line right yes when you pulled it out and opened it up you held it with the blade facing up right I didn't pay attention but in the video yes and it it becomes important later when you are when you stab AJ because you didn't try to cut him down you cut them up right right that was not my intent overruled believe the witness answered the question you you had the knife blade up and you're saying you didn't know that I didn't pay attention as you're holding it there you've got your thumb on the bottom of the handle right right yeah blade up I see that blad's pointing at looks like at MADD Cohen right yes nobody else we strike that after you opened that knife would it be fair to say that your fear level went down a little bit because now you had your knife open no all right was your fear level going up at that point I think you said that earlier the the whole situation is was boiling up so when you have your knife open you take a couple Steps step backwards to get away from the situation I stood my ground I stayed in place you never backed up one step did you no you had your knife out and you were prepared to use it to defend myself at that point there's nothing to defend yourself from right I didn't know that if I understand your testimony today now you're acknowledging that you did do something to Maddie Co which started off this fight right argumentative over you the question appr yes all right uh Mr smad would you please uh rephrase the question I will your honor you're testifying today day that you did actually make physical contact with Maddie Cohen right before you were punched or anything else right I may have you remember that well I remember what I said but I went over to push she was in right in my my face right in my space yelling and I could smell the alcohol in her breath did you'd been drinking too so might have been your breath I didn't have vodka and all the other garbage my point is today you testified that you did something physical to Madison Cohen before you were punched right correct I didn't I don't know if I touched her or not it's possible that I did if your friend Sergio testified last week that he saw you push her and she went flying back a couple of steps that's what happened right objection form sustained were you present when Sergio testified to form irrelevance after you pushed Maddie Cohen only one person ever punched you right from the video right that's what I see I I don't remember what happened then at that time I'm not asking you what you remember I'm asking what actually happened I got punch no Foundation sustain rephrase the question start we saw in the video that only one person ever punched you right yes objection it's cross it's not yes objection sustained let's move on you testified that you went down you fell down in the water when you were punched right yes and you indicated I think that you were punched in your jaw I think on your left side of your body yes you testified that you fell back in the water and hit your head right yes you did not drop your knife no right you held on to it when you fell down into the water yes when Dante Carl hit you he was holding a can of beer in one hand right yes he was fighting you with one hand yes you never suffered any kind of bruising or cuts to your face from this incident right and the inside my cheek you cut the inside of your cheek yes you never had any bruising on your jaw right I don't remember I mean I had a beard beard I couldn't tell you weren't bleeding from your face anywhere no not that I know um let's play the video of him St once you're knocked down in the water agent J Madison comes up to you and press pushes on your back right objection no Foundation sustained we'll play the video you were pushed in the back by AJ Madison right objection no Foundation overall in response you got up out of the water right mhm you take your knife in your right hand with the blade up right objection is skin narration T over that's what you did right still in my hand yes that way you jabbed it into his belly about the same time he hit me in the throat that's not what I'm asking yes you jabbed it into his belly right yes instead of pulling it out you pulled up right because I had so much time to think about it you pulled up I did not pull up I look at the angle of my arm we're at We're stopped at Tim stamp 156 you see your knife yes how close it is to his jaw his chin yes that's because when you stabbed him instead of pulling out you went up right I was falling backwards with the knife in my AR in my hand and the angle of my arm was about the same I I just got hit in the throat in this Frame of the video the knife's pointing straight up right yes you went in pulled up and it's it's by the time you got done up by his face your knife's pointing straight up jaction as R you can answer the question it's straight up at that point Tony Carlson came in to break up the fight objection speculation he doesn't know what Tony charlon is doing over you can ask the question he can answer I don't know what he was doing you're you know that he told Dante Carlson to back up right objection no Foundation over do I know from video and from testimony yes at the time I didn't know in after you stabbed AJ badison you were pushed back into the water right just sorry it's AJ Carlson pardon me no it's not it's not AJ Martin it's AJ Madison he's not part of the Carlson Family Martin thank you pardon me after you stabbed AJ Martin you were pushed back into the water right yes nobody jumped on top of you no nobody was kicking at you or punching you no you're just in the Water by yourself right yeah apparently yes we're going to take a look at the video starting at one time stamp 155 that's you in the water still holding your knife right pardon me this is before you you got up at this point you're standing there there's nobody hitting you nobody's punching you nobody's kicking you right objection that's the video should not standing please come up let's continue next question please in any event you were sitting in the water after AJ Martin pushed you over right I landed on my on my butt in in in the river but at that point the fight didn't continue people weren't punching on you right I at that time I couldn't tell what was going on around him that's at the point that Tony Carlson came over was yelling at people to back up do you remember that from the video you don't you don't have a memory of that in your head he he separated Dante from you right jaction no Foundation right if it's from my memory I don't remember that Tony Carlson never punched you correct correct he never kicked you never pushed you objection overruled no and you turned around and you stabbed him twice right I couldn't see I couldn't hear I didn't know who was punching me touching me shoving me nothing I was fearing for my life you stabbed the guy who tried to break up the fight twice right ejection form that's what happened right that's what happened and luckily for him he was able to block your first stab so you stabbed him again right I had milliseconds to think Riley Madison after you stabbed Tony Carlson you turned around you got up you turned around and you SL Riley uh Madison through this her left side of her body right yes she wasn't punching you or kicking you she came at me and she had her hands on me at the time you stabbed her she had your hands her hands on you yes this this this 115b woman attacked you while you're standing there holding a knife she could have been 500b I don't know I I'm sorry sir but I you've never told anyone ever that Riley Madison attacked you and that's why you stabbed her right no you're saying it today for the first time I don't remember this whole thing after you stabbed Riley Madison Isaac Schuman tries to push you right and he lands his hands on my throat yes but his hands originally weren't anywhere near your throat they were on your shoulder and your chest right I didn't take measurements or but yeah from the from the picture yes and as soon as he touches you you stab up into his heart with your knife right no Foundation over he went for my throat and I defended myself yes are you saying let's we're look at the video we're going to start at 202 and for anybody who doesn't want to watch you might want to vert your eyes okay ready stop it his right what's the5 we're at 205 the the time stamp on the video that's Isaac Schuman right if you right his left hand on your arm right right his right hand on your your chest right right they're not on your throat in that particular uh frame correct your right hand is cocked your elbows bent right okay and you've got the knife in your hand yes let play through please and as he's pushing you you jam your knife up into his heart through his rib cage right after he touches my throat and pushes me back yes correct as your arm is moving up to stab him you actually moved his arm closer up your farther up your body with your own movement right I don't know how to answer that I I didn't see that at the time that this incident happened you agreed you weighed 248 pounds yes not one of these people that you've stabbed so far in the video were armed in any fashion right right you told an elaborate story about people pour pulling knives on you right section argumentative as to form over right you made up that story to Brandy Hart Lieutenant Hart yes I don't remember that but I saw the the video yes at no point did anybody pull any knife on you right correct you're the only person who had a knife correct you had said earlier that you had waved for your friends to come over because you're so scared right right during the we're moving back in time now oh yeah earlier you had waved we saw the video you said you wave to your friends cuz you were scared your fear level was at whatever and in fact Ariel came over right yes and he's in the group at the point that Riley Madison's standing there bleeding into the river right he's standing right behind her yep and at the time that you stabbed Tony Carlson Ariel's right there right in the group correct I see that in the video yes and when you stabbed Isaac Schuman he's also standing there right I didn't see him there at the time but yes in the video yes so this narrative about it being 13 on one you had a friend there right your friend was standing right there he's in the video right in the video I don't remember him being there did you stop coming walking down stream I don't remember you waved for him right waved at my group at no point when you stabbed Tony Riley and Isaac did you call out to your friend and say hey help me they're attacking me right even though he's in the frame and he can he's close to the the action so to speak you never said that right I was stuned I had cont talk the last person you stabbed was Dante Carlson right yes and this is in the sequence of events everything else had happened right yes form I don't know what everything else suain all the other stabbings had already occurred right at the point that you stabbed Dante Carlson yes he wasn't punching you at that point I was surrounded people were coming at me I was very I just came came up a couple of times being punched in the head punched in the mouth I fell on on River Rocks I was in pain I was hurting Tony Carlson had broken up the fight between you and Dante and Dante never hit you again after that did objection that's stain warm please rephrase at the point that you stabbed Dante Carlson he was not fighting with you right correct he had not punched you immediately before you decided to stab him correct in fact you took a couple steps toward him to stab him didn't you I thought he was attacking me so at that point you stabbed five people and you decided to leave the area is that true I walked away you walked up um to Ernesto right yes you didn't say anything about being attacked right I didn't I was in shock you said they took my knife right Testo I don't remember that but that's what I said according to all the video and well if Ernesto said that that's what you said yeah you still got the knife on your person right even though you just told them they took your knife you still had it right no when I when I reached the tubes no no when arnesto came walking up and you walked up to him you told him they took my knife the first thing out of your mouth right that's I don't remember that okay instead of walking to your group you walked up to the South Side Southshore of the Lake of the river right yes and on the way you washed off the knife in the river I don't remember that well you had blood on your hand and on the knife right yes when you left the the area right yeah when you got back to your group nobody saw any blood on your hands or right foundation sustained at some point you rinsed your hand and the knife in the water right I don't remember that but what you do remember is throwing the knife up into the bushes on the south bank right on the bank yes and then you finally walked over to your group right as I was walking I threw it away yes no no you walked out of your way to get to the South Bank to get rid of it and then walk back across the river to your group right argumentative over that's what you did right yes we're going to take a play the video taken by larryan Davis judge it's it's grainy but it's of some [Music] value you have many more questions yes well maybe this will be a good time to take a break let's recess and we'll come back at 250 please take the jury out all rise for the jury it's we're in recess until 250 21 uh please good afternoon from our live streaming Center here at Fox 9 uh 230 7 central time uh we have hit our midafternoon recess after a blistering cross examination of Nikolai Miu on the witness stand uh uh we've had a little bit of some technical issues coming back to us here as we await uh we're joined today by uh our legal analyst Eric Nelson today via Zoom uh twin City's criminal defense attorney but uh quite a lot to unpack here with with Nikolai Miu on the stand uh questions about why he was searching for that lost telephone in the area of Isaac Schuman and the young tubers I see Eric Nelson there on the feed I hope we are clean and ready to go with that Eric I'm just wondering your assessment uh I thought direct examination went well for meu and his legal team but now on Cross uh it's tough to survive these questions yeah absolutely he is a taking some punches I think the prosecutor is doing a really uh good job kind of breaking it down second by second uh asking exactly what he's thinking kind of using some of his own words against him and uh doing a a good job in that regard Eric let's go back I we queued up a uh a sound bite from uh from this cross examination as they go frame by frame and they show me you uh and he's got to answer these question questions he doesn't have any help he doesn't have any protection as defense attorney objecting to some of these questions but most of them are being allowed in the form they're being asked uh let's go back we have some testimony then we'll get your reaction on the back side of this you had been fidgeting with your knife multiple times you've got Riley Madison in front of you I believe her testimony was5 lb woman you got Maddie Cohen on your other side this is when you choose to pull out your knife right has to form over understand the question what does her way have to do with the me sir you don't get to ask the questions at this point you pulled out your knife at this point with these two girls standing in front of you right yes and you held it down by your belt belt line right yes and you open it up right yes and this is before you had been punched or anything like that you had that knife ready with these two girls standing in front of you objection as to use the term girls or women women Pardon Me Right mhm and you didn't hold it up and say hey I have a knife right to me that would be a threat I'm not asking you that you did not hold it up no and you didn't in fact you held it down by your side right as an answer over isn't that what you did yes you didn't take a step back and brandish it and say hey back up I have a knife right correct you opened it down low and then you held it down low by your side right correct and as you're doing that you're smiling right that's not a smile well let's take a look at the video I'm I'm overwhelmed and annoyed and that's you holding your Knife Down by your belt line right yes and Eric I asked you that question this morning did he have a Duty or a responsibility to hold up the knife to to sort of worn off uh the folks around him you said at the time he did not so I suppose that question isn't as damaging as as it appears in real time but uh your reaction to that exchange yeah I mean he has no obligation and I think he's probably legally correct that if he had brandished the knife uh it could have been clearly interpreted as a threat on his part um that being said uh the the point is not lost is that certainly someone who is feeling uh threatened like that could have potentially averted uh the uh the escalation by kind of the proverbial warning shot who wins this thing if it becomes an issue of frame by frame I mean we saw on the other side you know got schuman's hands around his neck uh um frame by frame uh you know who who wins obviously we've got to take the totality of the circumstances but in these moments if if the jur he does want to isolate frames uh is that detrimental or helpful to the defendant it's really it's really could go either way if you're going frame by frame I mean both sides can isolate a smile or a a choke or whatever at any particular moment I think that's going to be really imperative especially for the defense to kind of close this out by saying we you as the jury you don't get to analyze this second by second frame by frame when you're considering what Mr Mew was feeling at the time right so they're going to really have to hammer that home in their closing argument that he didn't have the luxury of a second byc analysis or a millisecond by millisecond analysis they're going to have to really focus on how quickly this all came down in 22 seconds is the actual confrontation as I recall uh some of the notes I made uh the state pointing out that he had never told anybody nowhere in the evidence did he ever say he stumbled before when he goes kind of running back to the kids and then then he loses his goggle and and snorkel I know they they kind of jumped on him that's the first time we've ever heard you say you stumbled there was some attention on his worn out sandal and the rocky uh River Bottom uh the isolating of him fidgeting with his knife even before the physical confrontation escalated I I pointed out where they they turned that scale that they were using about fearful you know 0o to 10 how worried are you unsafe do you feel and then they use it as an anger scale I think trying to you know goat him into you know I don't know showing even some of that anger on the witness stand and then pointing out of course he is the only person with a knife out there uh you would agree I know you're a defense attorney and that's the that's the Hat you wear you you saw some sort of you know winds in that in the questioning from the prosecution oh yeah for sure uh you know I mean that is they're they're painting him as someone who was kind of a looking for a confrontation when he first walks up he's got his hand on the knife according to them uh you know as that as it goes uh forward he becomes more fidgety with the knife they're trying to portray him as kind of an angry person who sort of went looking for a confrontation despite warning from his friends and I have another sound bite from his testimony just in the last half hour so I'm going to cue that up one I just wanted to share because I know many of you are watching on our YouTube uh stream our live YouTube stream we've had thousands of you joining us this way for our Gava gaval coverage which we so appreciate but we have taken a an unscientific poll no doubt we're sort of you know it moves the numbers moves or so forth but uh 22,000 of you have voted already and uh just again asking where you think uh this case is headed 51% so more than half uh believe Nikolai MW at this point is quote not guilty not guilty of the charges he currently faces 35% say guilty 14% uh see a mistrial or some form of hung jury unable to to reach a verdict so 51% at this point believe Nikolai Miu is not guilty take that for what it is it is unscientific but those of you watching on our YouTube stream we appreciate you and just wanted to share those numbers as now let's go back into court uh Eric and I will uh get your reaction to to to this exchange here you've never said that before today ever to anybody any law enforcement or anybody else right but I have seen the videos now well we're going to take a look at the video and since you reviewed the video you know that before you ran up on them you were touching your knife in your pocket to make sure it was there right I don't remember that well let's take a look stop back up that's you with your right hand touching your pocket where your knife was clipped in right it appear so what is he on whoa hey get away so you're claiming today that where you reach down and grab at these boys' legs where their tubes are that that was a stumble is that your story argumentative overruled you can answer the question I I I know I hit a stone yes but I I I grabbed onto their uh inner tubes and you know where you grabbed onto their inner tube is where two of these boys had their legs straped over their inner tubes right I see that and you made contact with their legs didn't you I don't remember that did you see it on the video I see it on the video I don't remember actually making contact and as soon as you did that these boys jumped out of their tubes to get away from you right you remember that yeah and you held on to their tubes so that their tubes couldn't float away for how long well I'm asking you you did yeah it looks like for a brief one second and you were searching through their tubes or what you walked around their tubes rather than letting their tubes go so they could get back in their tubes and be on their way you walked around their tubes so after my goggles dropped into water I went around their tubes to go to the other side and look for for for my goggles what do you think of that exchange there Eric I think it's uh it's exactly what the prosecution is trying to do here is is making him you know putting his hand on the knife in advance um kind of being uh someone that was in some way deserving of of being called names and questioned what his intents were what are you doing right now with your client uh there's this break I assume uh well I shouldn't assume anything I I don't know what's going on I mean meu is in custody so he may be you know escorted into a side room uh are Corey and Aaron meeting with him right now either calming him down or or sort of you know preparing him for what what what's ahead yeah I mean I would expect that that is exactly what's happening is that they're reassuring him they're telling him you know stick stick with it uh you know giving them their thoughts on how he's doing um for sure that's what's going on you heard the state say at the very end they still have a lot of questions left for him you know the judge asked if now was a good time to break they say they have a lot more questions again going frame by frame and you know at some point do you make uh do you make your point does the state run the risk of beating up on this guy and making him more sympathetic as a potential victim here should they be thinking about a line that they want to walk up to with their questioning Yet to Come yeah I mean you definitely have to take into consideration two things number one this is really the state's first opportunity to ask him these questions they haven't had two years to prepare what he's going to say and how he's going to say it uh so you know you've got to give the state the leeway to uh to cross-examine him and to thoroughly and effectively cross-examine him at the same time you know the the you know you talk about your poll there Paul uh ultimately the only V votes that count are the 12 jurors in this case and they're in the room they're getting the sense and they're going to feel a particular way for everyone involved uh so you as a prosecutor or a defense attorney run the risk of going too aggressively against someone and actually having an uh the opposite intended effect which is to make him seem more sympathetic and we are seeing a little bit of movement so I might have to cut off the answer but I I didn't I don't think I got the legal explanation from you uh as we headed into this break but about these objections um Aaron Nelson is citing bad form argumentative from what you can tell and listen into is the judge making the right call and keep allowing most of these questions or do you see some that the state is legally uh kind of on the edge of asking bad questions in that courtroom no I think I think the Judge is getting the rulings generally pretty spoton uh their form type objections they're not the types of things that are ultimately going to be uh you know a basis for an appeal necessarily uh it couldn't just be a defense strategy to kind of uh slow things down for the client as well and here is Judge Michael Waterman on the bench I do have several more questions I could talk to you all afternoon but Let's uh listen into the final afternoon testimony today Nikolai muu on the witness stand under a withering cross-examination from St Croy County prosecutor Brian SME that Eric we'll come back to you at the end of the day thank you for being with us the jury is stepping into the room meu is back at his defense table but shortly we'll go back up to the witness stand where he remains under oath and again uh Mr will continue with his question right here all right Mr Mew uh please retake the witness stand you are still under oath Mr smand um Mr M I want to ask you some more questions about the stabbing of Dante Carlson is it fair to say that you did not know that Larry and Davis was recording that part of it no and you've seen that that video here in court yeah um you are the person in the dark shorts correct in the that video it was not very clear so I couldn't make out who is who right if there's a person wearing dark shorts with the same body type as you in the video is it you hold on hold on sustain well let we're going to watch the video we're going to watch it through it full speed scre start oh my [Music] [Music] God we're going to play part of it but slower but not the not the end part ready what's the time for Z this is at the very beginning Mr mu do you see yourself in the left hand side foreground wearing the dark shorts where the cursor pointed I can't make out you don't know if that's you no did anyone else on the river have the same body shape that you had at the time objection no Foundation sustained people you've been in court since the beginning of the trial right correct you've seen all these people testify yes the people that were all involved in the incident right yes at the time that you stabbed these folks there wasn't anybody else in that area of the river that had the same body shape as you correct objection no Foundation sustained it's the same question you're you're aware that Dante Carlson's wearing shorts that are black on the bottom and light gray on top right that's what I learned we're going to go through slowly yes objection sustained like a foundation in any event after you uh got rid of the knife on the south side of the river you walked back to the north side of the river where your group was in the uh at The Sandbar right yes sat in your tube did you sit down in your tube yes Eric Williams from your group realizing that people were hurt left form suain did you see Eric Williams leave your group no at some point did you notice he wasn't with your group anymore I didn't do a headcount sir sorry okay um did anyone else from your tubes go to help with the folks on the river that were hurt no Foundation over can ask the question I don't remember I wasn't paying attention to anybody in my group when you went back to your tube um you put your shirt back on right I was cold yes and you put on your your hat right yes and your sunglasses yes eventually you saw police officers and emergency medical technicians show up on the river right yes waiting up the river right yes tring to help people that have been injured and no Foundation overed you saw that happen right yes you didn't approach anybody to say you were attacked as far as law enforcement or MTS or anything like that right no I just pooped myself I was afraid to go in that area even though there's police presence everywhere you were afraid to walk over there and tell them hey this is what happened yes sir so you got in your tube and you floated down the river not immediately we waited there we had people from what I from what I learned not that I remember that call 9911 and yeah I don't remember any of that stuff so I don't remember so you had do you remember waiting for Eric Williams to come back to join your group so you could leave I don't remember all right do you remember saying let's go you yourself saying that objection ask and answer cumula C over over I don't remember uh renesto Torres he's your best friend yes you didn't tell him what happened as you were floating away I didn't talk to him I I don't remember talking to anybody I don't even remember going down down the river or up the river I was just stunned I don't remember anything you didn't tell Ernesto I was afraid for my life and I did this no you never told Ernesto that I acted in self-defense I didn't I don't remember talking to anybody he didn't say I was I was afraid they were going to kill me these folks jaction no Foundation he said he doesn't remember I don't remember as you were leaving the area you saw folks giving CPR to Isaac Schuman right I didn't see that all right eventually you made it down to Village Park where the exit was right eventually and there's some video of you relaxed in your tube kind of playing in the water with your your hand right objection is to form sustained do you remember seeing the video of you I remember seeing the video relaxing in your tube before you got back to the end is to form sustained did you see the video or not I said I did when you got to Village Park your group exited the river right yes there was multiple police in the area right yes you saw a uniformed officer with his gun drawn walking towards you right right now you didn't approach that officer I was afraid of everybody at that you're afraid of the officer I was afraid of anything and everybody I was afraid of anything I I could I couldn't I was still in shock so I was afraid of everything yes um you didn't approach the officer and say they tried to kill me I defended myself nothing like that right I don't remember saying anything like that to anybody you walked right by him right all that is is a blur I don't remember it uh once you got further up the path though other officers were able to pick you out of your group right apparently yes they they stopped you right before you could leave the park I don't remember that you don't remember the police stopping you and detaining you in the Park after this incident I remember being stopped but I don't remember the details sure you were aware that the police had a picture of you from the river right okay do you remember that I don't remember do you remember the police had to take your hat and glasses off to make sure that it was you and the Pitcher nope I was focused on one thing only the somebody with a with a bat that I've seen in the woods and across that whatever Bridge the little Bridge Rainbow Bridge whatever I was I was I was focused on him I was very afraid of that person did you ever say to an officer hey there's a guy over there with a bat and that's concerning me can you do something about it no you're put into a squad car right mhm that he yes yes sheriff kudon came over to make sure you were comfortable right I saw that in a video yes you don't remember talking to sheriff Canon you remember him asking you well if you don't remember you don't remember we're going to play that video and then I have some questions for you in your honor this is the longer version of the video that's been referenced it's a minute and 59 seconds house when you're ready camera recording started still doing all right yeah okay what's going temperature temperature's okay in here yeah okay somebody I hear somebody got stab uh and I fit the description yes you do all right yep so we're working through that now did you see that fight on the river I heard about it you heard about it yeah and I seen people gather around it okay all right and I went over to talk to see if somebody saw anything but that's about it okay our whole group was pretty interested in finding out what happened okay and that's your whole group over there I don't know okay well did you see anybody injured you didn't see anybody injured did you see anybody fighting I I heard people screaming at each other yes okay screaming in anger or screaming in pain do you know everybody's drunk so I don't know I can't tell the difference but I would say thank he screaming yeah calling each other names that's seen that all day you guys for all your help than and we' all been drinking a lot I'm sure they're drunk I'm sure they're doing I 48 kids being kids kids being kids where where are you where's your group from 44 where did you drive from today you drove from a um Prior Lake from Prior Lake actually I Drive Your Wife And you and you met the group here uh yeah but we know each other okay all right as long as the temperature is good I'll check back with you in a minute okay thank you thank you you lied to sheriff can in right I don't remember that conversation but yes you you fact you told them that you heard there was a stabbing right I don't remember any of this stuff you're fishing for information about what happened right I don't know what you could say I was fishing I I don't know you asked him some questions about what had happened right again I don't remember this conversation but you were pretending that you didn't know what happened is that true no at the point that you're talking to sheriff canuteson and saying these things you didn't know there was a video of what happened on the river did you I didn't know whether I was dead or alive at that point she also didn't know that you that there was a video right no when the sheriff asked you what had happened one of your responses was it was kids being kids right I don't remember any of that conversation you just heard yourself say it on the video though so objection no Foundation just I'll move on um a prior to be in take into jail you were transferred from that squad car that you were into a different squad car right remember that do you remember at some point Deputy Thomasson telling you that you were under arrest for homicide and attempted homicide I don't remember any of when you spoke with Lieutenant Hart um even though you'd been informed that you were being arrested for homicide you pretended to know that not be aware that someone had died right form right when you were talking to Lieutenant Hart you over here at the jail yeah I don't remember any of that conversation you don't recall pretending to not be aware that someone had died objection assumes a fact sustained when you're talking to Lieutenant Hart that was about 4 hours after you'd been arrested right yeah that's what I learned and then you had time to put together a story right no over you had four hours to come up with a story about what happened on the river before you were interviewed by Lieutenant Hart right no you didn't have that time I didn't put a story together okay so when you told her things like two of these boys pulled knives on me you're telling the truth no that was a story right correct and when you said that you somehow managed to grab one of the boys' arms and bend their wrist back and stab them with their own knife that's a story you made up right I told her what I remembered you remember doing that no I everything I told her is what I remembered at that time at the time you told her these things you you thought that you had grabbed someone's arm and stabbed them with their own knife as you can see I was very confused did you not testify earlier that you lied about the knife that I I I did and then nobody nobody else had a knife on the river except for you that I lied about the knife so it's impossible then for you to have Twisted someone's arm and stabbed them with their own knife right I saw the video now I'm asking what you said to Lieutenant Hart I don't remember the interview but I saw the video and you're aware I I know that it's not right it's not true not just a couple of little lies but lie on top of Lie to Lieutenant Hart right argument sustain well let's talk about some of the things you told her you said these boys took these the goggles off my head and threw them down the river right you told her that if that's what the video recorded yes right you told them you told her that these boys tried to pull down on your shorts right that's what I saw in the video but I don't remember the interview that's a detail you added for your benefit right no you said these boys attacked you right you told her that multiple times right I saw the V do did you say that or not yes or I said that in the video yes and you knew that wasn't true right so in the video I lied I I totally Li about the the the the the knife um I I I didn't remember a lot of details I didn't remember of anything I don't even remember the interview I just looking at the video it's it's I can look at it like anybody would look at it for the first time I don't remember any of that you told Lieutenant Hart that these boys told you don't run away from us you remember saying that no Foundation No in fact it's just the opposite they were telling you to go right I don't remember you told her that a second boy had a knife attacked you with the knife and you took that from him right that's what I signed a video that's not true either right right that's not true you said that when you walked back to your group and this is talking to Lieutenant Hart that Ernesto asked you if you had found the phone right you remember saying that to her I don't remember any of that conversation I had with her and that wasn't true either right if this is all part of that interview I don't remember anything so that's what we're talking about we're talking about the interview with Lieutenant har then I don't remember the interview okay I still get to ask you questions about you were specifically asked did you have a knife right do you remember being asked that I don't remember that but I know I was your answer to Lieutenant Hart was no no absolutely no right right which I lied I know I lied about the knife you said to her why did they want to scare me with a knife right talking about the boys I mean the 17-year- olds when none of them ever had a knife right is that right apparently not you said I grabbed it meaning the knife from him because he tried to poke me with it do you remember saying that nope you said a woman hits you in the ear do you remember saying that nope you know that's not true right objection Foundation over you know that's not true as you sit here now right right you told the C the police and Lieutenant har I think think that you thought it was two different groups of people fighting against each other right I don't remember telling her that right you know as you said her today that that is complete completely made up right again I don't remember any of that that you're talking about right now if it's about the interview you told Lieutenant har that you wanted to stay in the area and you know watch the police come and arrest these people for fighting right that's what you told Lieutenant Hart that's what's in the transcript yes when you were told that a person had died your response was is it because they fought each other that's what you told her right that's how you responded if it's in the transcript but I don't remember you you never told Lieutenant Hart that that you punched or pushed or did anything to Maddie Cohen right you left that part out is that what it's in there then asking if you ever told her that I don't remember you didn't mention that you had stabbed and severely injured another woman Riley Madison you didn't mention that to Lieutenant Hart right SE form over you never mentioned that part I don't remember you didn't mention uh being strangled at any point right if that's the the transcript then that we go by that but I don't remember that interview and I think what you said earlier is that you were afraid you're going to die from being strangled and that's why you stabbed Isaac Schuman in the heart right that was your testimony early earlier didn't you say that today this afternoon here in court yes that's not anything you mentioned to any police officer right if I didn't mention I didn't mention it I don't remember that that's not an important detail that you thought you might want to point out objection argument everything is a every detail is important we all know that but I don't remember saying any of those things to Lieutenant Hart because you didn't say them right that's why you don't remember CU what you didn't say those things to her that's why you don't remember correct I don't remember what I said or what I didn't say to her I don't remember even having an interview with her so you can't remember anything about what you told her but when Mr Nelson's asking you questions you can remember all these feelings you had at the time is that to form over you remember answering his questions about how you were feeling that day the feelings I had when I been I was attacked and and when you were meeting with Lieutenant Hart objection that can we approach yes objection sustained please rephrase the question you you testified today a lot about remembering what you were feeling that day right when Mr Nelson was questioning you right mhm is that a yes yes but when you're asked other details that might not be so useful you don't remember them right certain feelings and certain they they stick to you forever ones that areful to your defense those stick to you right you're examined by the jail nurse uh pardon me the the start nurse several hours after the incident right yes you never mentioned to her that you'd been strangled right didn't mention to her a lot not because I intentionally didn't want to do it I didn't remember I was still in shock you didn't mention anything about your throat hurting I don't remember what I mentioned to her I understand you never at any point told anybody other than today that you you had a sore throat or your throat was sore from after this incident right you didn't tell anybody at any point during the day after you arrested when you're interviewed with people when the jail or the S nurses talking to you you never once said oh my throat is sore because Isaac Schuman strangled me right I don't remember what I told those guys either I was like I said I don't remember a lots of the inter interaction I had with anybody here at at the jail but today almost two years later you remember that the next day your throat hurt I I I yeah and my back remember that detail but none not the other details yeah my my back still hurts right now the start nurse specifically asked you when she was doing the exam where are you hurt and you pointed out some things to her right I may have yeah but you never once said I had been strangled I have an injury to my throat my throat hurts nothing like that answer I don't remember when she asked you what hurt you said your butt hurt from the Rocks that's that was your response to the nurse right don't remember you had said that um know you're not you're in poor health or you were at least in poor health back on July 30th of 2022 you would had your your bypass surgery two years prior to that right mhm is that a yes yes and typically people that have medical procedures like that are given restrictions on what they can do in their activities right yeah and you apparently weren't restricted from swimming snorkeling doing outdoor sports on a river right I was for a while but two years later a lots of the restrictions I believe got lifted those restrictions got lifted because you were you got better right I I you can say the doctor makes that decision but he says if you feel a little better do as much as you can no and then you were in fact snorkeling and swimming and doing things that day physical activities right snorkeling in 15 Ines of water I was mostly just I didn't even snorkel snorkel that's that was not a a lake or a but I was just my whole plan for the day was to just flow down the river and relax you're able to run at least you were back on July 30th of 2022 right run you were able to run at that time right you weren't restricted from running I mean you didn't have a medical restriction to keep you from running right not in no and in fact you did run when you ran up on Isaac schuman's group correct you call that run okay that's not a run but I wasn't running I'm not allowed I wasn't allowed to run or do any uh activities like that so I wasn't running at the time that this all happened happened July 30th 2022 you felt sufficiently healthy to go off on your own away from your well your wife and your group to go do snorkeling on your own right what I felt want to check my notes I think I'm almost done if we can have uh exhibit for item 10 I'm going to ask investigator Schultz to actually handle it since it's evidence physical evidence can you retrieve the exhibit oh it is out if uh investigator can approach the witness your honor yes we're showing you what's been marked as exhibit four I guess item 10 that's your knife right yes that's the knife you use to stab these people that's a knife I used to defend myself with yes I asked you earlier about when you stabbed Dante Carlson you agreed that he was not attacking you at the point that you stabbed him he was the last person stabbed right he attacked me earlier but when you stabbed him Tony Carlson had already broke up the fight right you said you agreed to that earlier at that time everybody that came in contact with me attacked me anybody who looked at you no anybody that came in contact with me I felt attacked you felt attacked whether you're being physically attacked or not right I was in the in the in the uh uh moment so I felt attacked by anybody that had either previously attacked me or was approaching to attack me so you felt like you could stab folks who were not attacking you at the moment that you stabbed themain you walked up to Dante Carlson and stabbed him in the belly right I they I walk up to Dante Carlson and stab him in the belly I don't have any other questions your honor Mr Nelson you would ask some questions about your Fitness on July 30 I want to ask you some questions about that okay okay just maybe we can get it done on one question did you feel fit enough to take on 13 teenagers and adults in a fight by yourself without a weapon I didn't no you were asked some questions about um what happened with each of these people right and you were shown some Stills mhm were you in court when uh do you know how many frames are in per second of these videos I learned they're like 24 25 okay so one frame is a 24th of a second is that right correct when you were in that let me play the video I guess I'm going to play Exhibit 2 are you connected I think so before I am me start yeah start over I don't have anything on my monitor either that's not the screen I'm looking at judge I apologize my screen looks like that screen is this with the library that was my that's a that's my home screen screen let me take another chance here judge sorry I can we see what it looks like for a second okay that's I don't know judge maybe I need to take a break I I'm looking at my screen and it shows the video so I apologize I I'm flx this is Exhibit 2 the this is Exhibit 2 I want to play it from the 150 Mark where you for 14 seconds so in the spirit of cooperation are you able to use your exhibit sure apologize sorry I just the video the the video please we can start the video at 150 just when he's all right before we press play Mr Mew do you see what's on the screen there at 149 yes is that you falling backwards yes yes I want to press play and ask him to stop it at 20:5 okay okay please [Applause] plus he in a woman he in a woman Did You observe those 16 seconds or so yes were you if there's 24 frames a second and we watch for 16 seconds as you sit here now are you able to break down exactly what happened in each of those 284 frames I mean do you have a memory of 124th of a second absolutely or not how how as far as time goes if you can I apologize but if you can just put yourself back in that space for a moment mhm can you do that yes when you're back in that space on that River in that time did you seem like you had 284 different chances to do different things in field different things no how did time feel in that moment was when it was not real everything was not real time wasn't the following the same rules when you slow very slow when you said you didn't have a memory of some of the details but you had a memory of the feelings yeah can you explain how is that so feelings are brought on by by by what's happening at least with me if if you get hit in the head that's a feeling of hurt if you fall back and you hit your head you fall back on River Rock and and and you you get hurt you feel pain uh when you know you can't get away and you feel like you're drowning and they're people on top of you pounding you and holding you in the water that that's a a time stamp in a fing F filing cabinet that says this is this is what I suffered do you exactly go ahead sorry I didn't interrupt yeah it it it it's something I would love to to erase from my me memory but unfortunately there are lots of those feelings very strong feelings I can't erase how confident in you are you in the accuracy of your feelings I know my feelings I lived with my feelings for 54 years how about this feeling how confident are you in the accuracy of this feeling that 100% confident that that is my feeling 100% confident even if you can't remember the details of everything you saw correct even if you can't remember the details of everything you heard right let me because there were some questions and I want to just make sure we cover it right MH AJ Mark do you remember each of these acts that you're charged with each of these uh acts of stabbing no do you remember um the particulars that is I should say the particulars of like X person did this or Y person did this or Z person did this no do you remember do you have any memory of just randomly stabbing people no what is your memory as to why you did what you did I was afraid for my life and and what I I did I had to do to defend myself did you do you have a memory of stabbing anybody that didn't come towards you or attack you or touch you or push you or hit you no did you ever just randomly go up and hit somebody no do you have any memory of Tony Carlson trying to break anything up no do you you weren't you were asked about that but I know there's some frames on that do you remember the frame in which Tony car 's coming up from behind and pushing you I didn't know who he was but I remember being held in the water I mean it's a feeling that I it keep it gives me the nightmares the trauma that was caused by that that that's the trauma that I that that I remember there were asked some questions there at the end about the laran Davis video could you make anything out in there no I thought I was looking at Sasquatch okay do you remember do you remember anything about Dante Dante Carlson is the person on the video previously that we saw here that it hit you you know that correct yeah and he's the person in those two-tone shorts correct yeah um do you have a memory of how it came to be that you defended yourself against him that's not on the Jaan cockfield video no you remember him coming up to you I remember a lots of people coming on on to me I couldn't distinguish who I I don't remember color of of shorts or anything like that did you ever swing or hit the knife out of anger no why did you use the knife I use because I'm a mechanical engineer I use it as a tool but I what I use it for that day I used it to save my life for selfdefense that's all Mr sman so Mr you we hear over and over again that there was 13 people there and you're there by yourself right apparently yes we know that's not true CU Ariel was behind you objection sustain 13 people did not attack you correct correct looking at the evidence correct in the picture at the time I didn't know that 13 people were using words that you didn't like right in action right two women touched you on your shoulders and arms right they didn't just touch me on my shoulders and arms you know that you were 200 50 PBS at the time right yes and these women touching your arms caus you to fear for your life objection they're not touching objection the objection that's not the evidence that's not again members of the jury disregard what the attorneys say because what they say is not evidence what the witness says is the evidence that you line next question you said the time slowed down for you on redirect right you said the rules didn't apply time slowed down to me at that time everything look felt different if time had slowed down you would have time to consider your actions right if it did slow down yes so I was wrong when I said did slow down but yes that's what you said right I understand you never told the S nurse that you had been drowning right objection beyond the scope over I don't remember what I told the doctor you never told Lieutenant Hart that you had been drowning I don't remember nothing further thank you Mr mu you may to the table a few minutes just a couple minutes yes pleas all right uh let's come back at 3:45 please take the jury out all right the jury right we're in recess [Music] 345 and good afternoon from our fox9 streaming Center You' of course been watching our gav to gav coverage of the Apple River stabbing trial in Hudson Wisconsin s Croy County Circuit Court uh you've been watching the defendant Nikolai Miu on the stand for hours today answering some tough questions from the state uh he survived he may have been looked at as on the ropes at some point but he did make it through what this jury makes of his testimony and his uh lack of memory there on on certain things certain interviews uh remains to be seen in case you haven't joined us let's go right back I have some sound I have queued up an important exchange on the stand uh here's Nikolai Miu Tony Carlson never punched you correct correct he never kicked you never pushed you objection the evidence overruled no and you turned around and you stabbed him twice right I couldn't see I couldn't hear I didn't know who was punching me touching me shoving me nothing I was fearing for my life you stabbed the guy who tried to break up the fight twice right ejection form that's what happened right that's what happened and luckily for him he was able to block your first stab so he stabbed him again right I had milliseconds to think Riley Madison after you stabbed Tony Carlson you turned around you got up you turned around and you sliced Riley uh badison through this her left side of her body right yes she wasn't punching you or kicking you she came at me she had her hands on me at the time you stabbed her she had your hands her hands on you yes this this this 115b woman attacked you while you're standing there holding a knife she couldb been 500 pound I don't know I I'm sorry sir but I you've never told anyone ever that Riley Madison attacked you and that's why you stabbed her right no you're saying it today for the first time I don't remember this whole thing after you stabbed Riley Madison Isaac Schuman tries to push you right and he lands his hands on my throat yes but his hands originally weren't anywhere near your throat they were on your shoulder and your chest right I didn't take measurements or but yeah from the from the picture yes and as soon as he touches you you stab up into his heart with your knife right he went for my throat and I defended myself yes he heard him there Nikolai Miu he went for my throat meaning Isaac Schuman and I defended myself you're taking a a two- screen look uh of course the state seal there uh in Hudson Wisconsin they are on a short uh short break we'll stick with you uh for that break uh just to set the stage here I I don't exactly know 100% certainty what comes next uh there's a possibility the state may have a rebuttal witness of sorts there is a slight chance that the fence has a witness or two they they're they're list does suggest one or two more names um or the defense could rest and we could could sort of head uh towards closing arguments which would then get underway tomorrow morning I'm seeing some heads move in the courtroom that usually suggests that the parties are uh are ready to go or getting uh uh getting their stuff uh their things in order to come back in and we'll see where we go Nikolai Miu by my account nearly the 50th witness called uh when you combine both sides 47 by my count we are 7 days into this trial a trial that was initially slated to last about two weeks uh they had booked and told this jury to go uh all of last week and then through Friday this week as we know now they are ahead of schedule uh Nikolai Miu there wrapping up his testimony one uh piece of evidence that did come in uh on rebuttal I'm I'm a little anxious whether we should show it to you or not again but let's give it a shot and we can always dump out it if if if we need to uh a key conversation Miu had with the sheriff of St Croy County on July 30th 2022 Miu is under arrest he's in the back of the squad car he has not been mirandi so initially this interview did not come in but on on uh uh to impeach uh his witness testimony the state was allowed to introduce it during their cross-examination let's go back again July 30th 2022 Nikolai meu said on the stand today he didn't even remember this conversation but here he is talking to the county sheriff shortly after the stabbings still doing all right yeah okay what's going on temperature temperature's okay in here yeah okay somebody I hear somebody got stabbed um and I fit the description yes you do all right yep so we're working through that now did you see that fight on the river I heard about it you heard about it yeah and I've seen people gather around it okay all right and I went over to talk to see if somebody saw anything but that's about it okay our whole group was pretty interested in finding out what happened okay and that's your whole group over there all right well judge Michael Waterman keeping punctual as he has for the seven days that we've been in his courtroom uh he's back at 346 he said 345 uh the jury is coming back into the room let's listen in uh and see what they want to do for the rest of the day but he does not go beyond fourth :0 so we are certainly in that last the afternoon Mr try is there another witness nson the defense rests all right defense rests uh Mr Anderson will there be a rebuttal no all right members of the jury uh that means the evidence is closed we're almost at the end um I have some matters uh to discuss with the attorneys um it would not be practical to keep you here and try to push through closing arguments and end up working into the night so I'm going to release you now um I'd like you to come back tomorrow morning 8: a.m. uh what is going to happen tomorrow morning is uh we'll all come back into the courtroom I will give you the jury instructions uh the attorneys will deliver their arguments um and then the matter will be handed over to you for your deliberations um again the reminders are the same uh no independent research or investigation uh do not talk about this case among yourselves or with anybody else uh do not consult um news reports or social media posts about this case uh enjoy the rest of your night and we'll see you tomorrow morning at we just correction 8:30 8:30 tomorrow morning all right anything else all right please take the jury out all R for the jury please be seated we are out outside the presence of the jury uh Mr Nelson Mr tropy do you have anything else um concerning the evidence motions yes judge we would renew uh the motion that we've made before the arguments are the same I believe the burden is uh different and so if your honor wants additional arguments I don't the facts haven't really changed it's just the the burden has I think the burden is the same but the evidence that I can consider has expanded correct I can consider the entire body of the evidence not just what the state offered fair enough all right U Mr Anderson is there anything that you want to add no all right um again that motion is denied uh I stand by my earlier rulings I think the uh evidence that has been presented thus far uh is sufficient to Warrant this case going to the jury um this morning I handed the attorneys uh rough draft number three of the jury instructions um have you had an opportunity to look at it or do you need some time I not even I need some time how much time I me too judge I I haven't looked at a page of it are we going on the record or well I'd really like to get it done if we could I don't know how much time you need I haven't I haven't even looked at it I apologize but obviously it's been a full day um and so they 29 Pages you know give me tell at least 4:15 will that be enough time for you well I'm going to defer to Mr Anderson he's looked at him a little closer than I have should be judge I I know that the one it doesn't need to be lengthy but I think would be appropriate as something on defense of others because there's testimony that Dante and AJ were defending responding to Mew punching Maddie when they respond so let me just kind of recap where I think we are um I had initiated a rough draft of the jury instructions includes instructions that I I knew were going to be required ones that I anticipated the attorneys would want uh and instructions I thought the evidence would justify um the attorneys and I have uh discussed the draft uh we spoke uh most recently yesterday um there were some areas where I needed input I got the input um in the draft you have now uh it reflects the changes that we had discussed yesterday uh the areas that are in red are areas that remain unresolved from yesterday or were added based on Mr Anderson's submission uh late yesterday uh regarding the Lesser included uh charges for accounts two through five so it should look familiar to everybody with the exception of the portions in red um just give me better understanding about defense of others instruction how you see it fitting in where do you want it so the testimony from Dante and AJ was they saw Mew punch Maddie so they were defending her so I think the jury should be able to know that not only is it legal is self-defense legal when Justified so offense of others what's your reaction Mr Trophy never heard of an affirmative defense being given in a criminal case for a victim and I'm I I haven't looked at it it strikes me as completely convoluting everything we're doing but I would need to know are they saying that gets rid of the right of self-defense I I I don't know what it means in terms of how it how the jury is supposed to consider that evidence if they consider that are they saying if you find it defense of others then self-defense doesn't apply I don't think it strikes a self-defense yeah Mr J how how does it fit into your argument I think when I was reading this before um I think there's a spot where it could be added in very succinctly but I just want to be able to tell the J the jury that look you have these jury instructions in Wisconsin it's illegal it's legal to come to the aid of others and that's what exactly what Dante and AJ did and it comes it also intertwines with but has it reflect on Mr mw's guilt or not guilt his provocation is what responded them to come to the defense of Maddie and then he starts stabbing people and they had a legal right to come to her defense under the theory of Defense of others so I may judge one question are you proposing the pattern instruction or do you have something custom made I think it could be more succinct I could come back with a yeah why don't you do that so we're all looking at the same language uh what did you want to add the only way again I agree with Mr try this I just don't see how this comes in the only way would be is he comes in under that red paragraph on page three under provocation in some way but then it doesn't make sense because it's the issue is whether Mr M's conduct was unlawful it whether Dante Carlson's conduct was lawful or unlawful has no bearing whatsoever on whether provocation occurred and whether Mr Carlson or AJ Martin's behavior is lawful or defense of others that has no bearing on Mr mw's beliefs or the reasonableness of his beliefs because there's zero evidence that has been presented that Mr Mew had any impression understanding or knowledge that what was being done to him was legally the defense of others and so it it's just it's irrelevant it's prejudicial it's confusing it has nothing to do with Mr mw's beliefs which this entire case is about all right let's uh put it on hold give me the uh proposed language that you want to have me consider I'll give you 20 minutes to review the most recent draft I'd like to if we could I'd like to finish the instruction conference today so that we can come in fresh tomorrow morning um but if uh the clock prevents from doing so we may have to adjourn till tomorrow morning so we'll re convene at 4:15 and are we on the record at 4:15 or we that's my intention yes yeah and good afternoon once again from our fox9 streaming Center you of course watching our gav to gav coverage of the Apple River stabbing trial huge developments there fence has rested there are no rebuttal Witnesses from the state the state has rested uh as it did earlier today there is no more evidence to be presented to this jury now the two sides have to go over jury instructions we watched the discussion there and then closing arguments uh tomorrow I want to bring in our legal analysts today uh Eric Nelson local criminal defense attorney thank you Eric you've been watching with us this afternoon could you help us sort out I know it's confusing so it might be even too much for you because it clearly baffled the defense team there uh help us understand what what the state might be trying to get at with this defense of others and how it could play into what this jury has ended ends up getting presented tomorrow yeah it's a very confusing motion on the part of the state it's not anything I've ever seen uh the teenagers who allegedly or purportedly came to the defense of the the woman who was struck uh they're not on trial uh their actions are are not ultimately going to be anything that the jury will really have to consider to render a verdict in this case there's nothing that would prevent the da from making an argument that they were coming to her Aid uh but it it would just confuse the jury I think to include any sort of Defense of others instruction uh as it relates specifically to their conduct mean Mr Mew is the one who's on trial and it's uh it's ultimately what he believed and his use of force that is of issue and Eric we've talked about it uh quite a bit with you uh maybe you're sick of talking about it but the reason you know one of the reasons I so enjoy having you on for this very specific conversation is because of your experience about a decade ago it was a self-defense claim uh a deadly stabbing along the St Croy River uh again neighboring Wisconsin you won an AC quiddle you had a young defendant take the witness stand no video in that case uh but uh the young man was found not guilty Levi acre Kendall a fascinating trial that I covered at that point or at at some point at the close of that case the state there did add a lesser included murder count I'm not exact remembering the specific on the statutes but we are at that this point in in the Miu case would we have just heard about a potentially lesser included murder charge perhaps a reckless account of Reckless homicide or could that come tomorrow when would we hear if the state is going all in on those first deegree murder and attempted murder charges well what I heard the The Da say or the judge say uh was essentially that they were looking for lesser includeds on on two through five I think where the counts uh so it appears that they're not seeking the state is not seeking a lesser included on the homicide count uh which would obviously have a life sentence uh that but it appears that they are seeking some sort of lesser included offense as it relates to the other four individual counts um that's what I that's what I heard say I don't know what those lesser includeds are whether they were assault type CA uh charges or attempted uh you know Reckless homicide rather than Reckless or excuse me rather than intentional homicide so I'm not sure exactly what the Lesser includeds are but they're certainly gearing up for that on those under Underside counts I I missed the audio there it may have cut out for so thank you for clearing that up so we'll watch for that I didn't hear if I think they're on the record at 4:15 but certainly once we get the closings uh that will uh be clear uh to us let me ask you point blank if they do stick to the first deegree intentional hmet side of Isaac Schuman is that the appropriate charge is it overcharged uh what are your thoughts yeah I mean I think that they made that decision really based on a couple of factors uh the significant injuries um you know in the acre Kendall case it was a a clear In-N-Out type of a stab wound versus a much more kind of a slashing motion so I think that's part of their decision-making process as well as the obvious lies and it certainly at at the time the charging decision was made uh certainly made Mr Mew seem you more culpable in his actions those lies meaning that you know he was trying to cover up his behavior so I think uh I think I understand the original charge I mean at this point though now that all the evidence is in uh I would certainly think that the state would be looking looking to uh preserve any potential conviction uh ultimately you know the the this is going to boil down to and you really look at there is an instruction in Wisconsin a jury instruction in Wisconsin that talks about the reasonable hypothesis consistent with innocence or inconsistent with guilt a jury is going to be told as it relates to all of these counts that if the jury can find any reasonable hypothesis that is consistent with the defendant's Innocence uh then they have to they must acquit uh and so that's a very powerful instruction and it really I think it's boiling down to an All or Nothing uh on that first count and the stakes couldn't be higher you're talking about a life sentence if convicted it's a class a felony in Wisconsin uh so stay tuned to that the one thing I do want to ask I'm going to use some poll numbers we just took we're taking a live a digital poll with some of our live streaming audiences specifically on YouTube again it's unscientific I I've used these poll numbers earlier today but just uh we asked our our our streaming viewers if they thought Nikolai Mew taking the stand today now most people feel he had to and then certainly was presented all the way back at openings that the jury would hear from him so perhaps at this point he really doesn't have the choice but 48% we had more than 5,000 votes again not scientific and of course the 12 jurors matter most 5,000 plus votes 5,500 votes 48% say it hurt his case 38% say it helped so 48% say it hurt his case 14% say it it doesn't influence the outcome of the case uh just seems like everything we take is split split split um your reaction to to just wrapping up an intense day uh on the stand for Mr Miu yeah I mean you know I stand by uh and I would uh support the defense's decision to have him testify it's critical and yes he did uh undergo a pretty intense cross-examination on the part uh from the state um that being said I do think that uh in the redirect by Mr Nelson they were able to come back and kind of talk about some of those those emotional the stamps I I really uh I thought Mr mw's kind of explanation of a very powerful uh very powerful demonstration on his part I think the redirect was uh was all defense his lack of memory in some of these key moments interviews he doesn't remember talking to uh Lieutenant Hart at all at the jail house uh is that plausible it you know it's absolutely 100% plausible whenever someone is involved in a a high stress situation like this uh and it goes for for a lot of the witnesses as well a high stress situation causes a lot of the things that uh that Mr M is explaining the tunnel vision auditory exclusions uh sort of a a Time an inexplicable time differential so all of the things that he's explaining are are very consistent and and a lack of memory I mean he's going through an adrenaline dump all of these things are happening to him as well as the other Witnesses so you know the in that's what I talked about at the beginning is the the video being so important because that in these stressful situations whether it be the defendants memory whether it be witness memories um the Mind does strange things in in these types of events and Eric going back to that interrogation needing to repair what what was his first story and you know let's be frank he was trying he didn't know there was video he was trying to you know create a story apparently around what happened that day in the river um your advice to anyone in that situation I mean clearly now he needed to assert his right to an attorney and not say anything at the jail right from from the defense perspective I think you any criminal defense attorney with half a brain would tell them to shut up uh I mean this is precisely why you don't talk to the police when you're involved in a situ situation and it's it's your Fifth Amendment right and it's a right should that be that should be exercised by every criminal suspect you think something I know we talked about uh the native language do you think that in watching that interrogation back today with us you think that factored into you know knowing his rights or being comfortable or what he should say uh at that at that time I mean I think to a certain degree but um the bottom line is is that he didn't require an interpreter for his testimony uh so I don't the the English as a second language thing is really sort of a tertiary type of an issue um you know and it probably doesn't uh is not going to be much of a factor for the jury to consider I have a a part a portion of his testimony from today this is under direct I believe uh uh he was talking about that the moment that Isaac Schuman appears to have his hands up around his neck I do want to listen back to this and then talk to you about this moment afterwards Eric when you felt the pain about your throat did you see anything that refreshed your memory about what caused that pain to your throat after watching the video yes okay what happened I got hit in the in the throat do you remember that now yes if I can showing you the slides 2993 2994 and 2997 is that you yes what's happening to you there somebody is going for my throat squeezing my throat do you remember how that felt I felt pain I couldn't breathe scared prayed and showing you the next set of slides here 2998 99 and 3000 what did you think was going to happen to you in that moment the whole time I I I felt like I was going to die so he basically I feared for my life and in response to that here slide 3000 did you do something in response to that I reached out and uh and stabbed them when you used your knife and again this is open-ended you can ask it anywhere you want did you were you trying to kill somebody absolutely not um what were you trying to do I was just trying to defend myself and that theme of just trying to defend himself uh sort of there was also the dramatic moment at the end of his uh cross-examination where the state put his knife in front of him and said you know this is the knife or the weapon you use to stab five people and and he was firm no know it was the knife I used to defend uh myself uh did did I don't want to say he's staying on point there but uh uh the appropriate response in the moment from the defendant D would would you agree yeah I mean I think that you know this really boils down to a pretty specific uh legal issue and that that is the intent to kill right so he has the ability to defend himself and that doesn't necessarily mean that he intended to kill someone and that's what he is being prosecuted for so the fact that someone did die uh is is a is almost beside the point because the question is was he trying to kill that person or was he trying to defend himself and that's the question that's the a primary legal question the jury's going to have to to decide Eric I know there's some significant bookkeeping happening like it's not the sexiest portion of the court or the trial process the the going over of jury instructions and uh what's in what's out you even see the confusion there with what the state's trying to do um but uh as we kind of Turn the Page cuz closings are coming coming as soon as tomorrow can you just walk me through what the attorneys are going to be doing this afternoon this evening early tomorrow morning to prepare themselves are are the closing arguments well written by this point do you do you take into account what what just took place over the last few hours with me you on the stand just walk me through I mean I'm not a trial attorney you've you've done some high-profile trial s what is this last this last evening like before you present your final words to the jury it's one of the most stressful nights of any trial because how you present your defense is really is really boils down to this moment um everything kind of leads up to it so I'm going to venture a guess that this is going to be a late night for both sides uh meaning that they're going to go back through anything that they've previously prepared they're going to be supplementing it they're going to be moving things around they're going to be addressing issues that have come up in the midst of trial so I mean this is a really critical night because you know you've got you've got your last opportunity to present your case to the jury before they're instructed uh and before they begin their deliberations I know your colleague Marsh Hallberg told me yesterday on our live stream it comes down to his testimony and the video keep it simple don't try to worry about all the window dressing what other Witnesses said their memories who drank what who you know maybe touched who first it comes down to his witness testimony and the video you agree yeah I mean I agree um you know you keep it simple stupid right that's sort of the the old adage but at the same time you are going to have to address some of these issues those facts are going to go and have they're going to have a specific point in the closing argument as it relates to the jury instructions because the jury is going to have to go through step by step with those instructions to determine you know was his fear reasonable was the amount of force reasonable uh did he I don't know if the judges has included uh any language about Retreat um the provocation so uh it also gives you an opportunity to really talk about the perception and the problems with perception versus reality gives you an opportunity to talk about uh absences in people's memory and and just put it all into light uh how all of those factors are going to affect how does alcohol affect perception how does alcohol affect memory uh you know all of those things are going to be important um window dressing as to use your term But ultimately you're you're going to want to keep it simple stupid you're going to want to really focus in on those two two major pieces of evidence agreed I uh I heard uh the defendant today use the term stand your ground a couple of times I know that gets caught up in some of the the legal terminology around the country to stand your ground I mean typically you know you're in your house or car how does it relate uh it may have just been a catchphrase he had in his mind to use but uh is that important that he doesn't back up or that that he just he's entitled to the space he's in on that River on that day yeah I mean Wisconsin does not have a qu quote stand your ground law right so the stand your ground law creates a it creates a presumption that the force or the belief that force was necessary uh you know creates that presumption so um you know it's a catchphrase it may or may not have been intentional just to kind of get some jurors thinking about you know that that he does not have to a duty to retreat in this state uh in the state of Wisconsin so it was an interesting I caught it a couple of times too made a note of it to to bring it up and Eric we're just going to bring up our two shot here of the courtroom just to point out that they are going to come back on the record as our understanding at 4:15 we've hit 4:14 central time so uh we expect to go back into the courtroom for further discussion uh on these jury instructions potentially lesser included as everyone now knows both sides have rested the evidence presentation portion of this case now over um so we are headed to closings he told uh the sides to be ready to go for 8:30 now he bumped it back half an hour I think I heard the defense asked for a little extra time so they're going to get back uh to it at 8:30 a.m. but of course don't go anywhere because we are going to go back into the courtroom uh yet this afternoon uh while we keep uh our legal analyst Eric Nelson on standby Eric what uh what are your thoughts here on on the state's overall case presentation you got to remember so much happened with just Nikolai meu on the stand but they rested today their last witness being Brandy Hart the investigator who took that interrogation and through her they entered the entirety of it nearly one hour of uh of of what they've described as meu telling stories and lying about what took place in in the river but uh we talked about their sort of formulaic kind of chronological we started you know uh the very first witness was was the campground owner we got into the emotion with Isaac schuman's mother and then we really stayed sort of all tubing everybody tubing tubers everybody on the river and we kind of got into law enforcement and then we closed today with with this investigator um any surprises in what they did could they have presented it any better no no surprises it is a very formulaic approach um and and probably to some degree a necessary approach uh the state is going to try to be chronological they're going to try to to kind of create a story in a comprehensive yet compreh Dependable manner uh so that people can kind of picture it step by step um so no surprises there uh no real surprises from the defense either in that regard uh simply because they were allowed to call some witnesses out of order uh and so really um resting it uh on Mr mw's testimony is really going to be uh is is pretty much what they could do at this point um there's no rebuttal testimony so you know the evidence is now considered close I want to ask you just about personal experience I was thinking there sitting there thinking about it just through your eyes today as a criminal defense attorney and you put your witness on the stand everyone agrees you certainly do that he had to testify but as you sit there and your clients up there under a withering cross-examination what is that like is it a helpless feeling we listened in Taron Nelson to object quite a bit today some were sustained most were not but uh is it helpl a helpless feeling uh or is that when you're most like engaged and ready to pounce uh kind of just walk me through what a lawyer is is sitting there you know watching their client up there on the witness stand uh kind of get take a take a take a beating if you will yeah I mean certainly in this uh in this case and in a case with the magnitude of consequences it's probably the most stressful moments of the trial for the defense lawyer uh because you are watching your client there's very little you can do you can't take back wordss and uh you know I mean that's in part what preparation is for but you still have an ethical obligation to make sure that your client is telling his truth or her truth and uh you know that that's it can be stressful stressful just stressful listening you answer the question I want to get you back to judge Michael Waterman's uh courtroom they are back in session let's listen in are either of the parties requesting lesser included offenses yes okay I I'm sorry I missed that yes by the state no by the defense uh Mr Anderson uh which lesser included I'm I'm satisfied with the ones in the draft instructions judge okay so I want to make sure we're clear on the record here you're requesting lesser includeds uh for count one to include second degree intentional homicide first degree Reckless homicide second degree Reckless homicide correct then for counts 2 three four and five you're requesting lesser includeds for attempted second degree homicide for first degree recklessly endangering safety and second degree recklessly endangering safety correct Mr Nelson any comment we object any basis uh the law on the facts I mean I don't want to try try to be efficient here but I don't think it's supported by the facts that have been presented here certainly as to I understand uh I understand count one second degree we prefer not but I don't think there's a basis in law fact for me to make an argument that he doesn't get second degree intentional as to count one first deegree Reckless I don't think that there is a basis in fact that there is any evidence that it was utter disregard for human life in this situation where the person Mr Schuman died instantly um so for those re for so we object to first degree Reckless as to count one may go through the other counts or just deal with count one first no go through the other counts um as to counts two through five um again I understand uh that second degree intentional is a lesser included a first degree intentional so I'm not objecting to that while we prefer that it not be offered I agree that there's a factual and legal basis for it as to the reckless endangerment first deegree reckless endangerment again there is no evidence that it was utter disregard I believe in these cases I do conceive that case law that I've seen supports the fact that reckless endangerment is a lesser includ of attempted hum Mr Anderson so basically the both estate and defense are entitled to ask for lesser included offense and it's Error for the court not to include lesser included offense offenses as long as there's a basis so a jury could EAS a jury could conclude that although he was reckless in stabbing these people he didn't actually have the intent to kill them hence the Reckless charges um the self-defense is still an issue in all of them but um I think it's appropriate to have the Lesser included my understanding of the law is that either party may make a request for lesser includeds um one party's decision uh to request lesser includeds cannot be challenged by the other party so here the state is making the request it's entitled to the instruction as long as the evidence uh supports it uh in my judgment um the crimes that are being requested as lesser includeds are in fact all lesser included offenses um the homicides um in count one the lesser degree of homicide certainly are same with the attempted homicides in counts 2 through five uh there's also um a case law that says that the Reckless conduct uh for each of the classes of offenses are lesser included so I'm satisfied that the charges themselves are are lesser included offenses I'm also satisfied that the facts uh support uh the Lesser included crimes that have been requested um I think Mr Anderson's assessment is correct that the jury could conclude that Mr MW did not have the intent to kill um but he did engage in Reckless conduct uh by indiscriminately jabbing and Swinging his knife um around people he testified today that he really didn't know what was going on didn't know who was hitting him didn't know where people were necessarily that all happened very fast uh yet the knife was um used in a way that would show utter disregard for human life it was certainly um reckless in nature um when considering utter disregard for human life there are number of factors to consider uh what he was doing why he was engaged in the conduct how dangerous the conduct was how obvious the danger was whether the conduct showed any regard for life and all other facts and circumstances relating to the conduct again we have a man who is um using a knife in a dangerous way indiscriminately uh brandishing it against others others were injured uh Mr Mew left the scene left the wounded behind uh after um a delay he um tubed past them without rendering Aid without notifying police what happened I think those are all facts that one could conclude uh are utter disregard for human life so I'm satisfied that the facts uh support each of the Lesser included instructions that have been requested by the state all right um what I'd like to do is walk through the instructions that I have if there's an objection or something that you think warrants discussion please stop me uh and then we can have a conversation about it I intend to issue uh 100 opening instructions 145 information not evidence uh 1017 first degree intentional homicide with self-defense and the three lesser includeds that I mentioned do objections about that just I'm not sure when you want to yes what's the objection uh on page three um I don't have objection to 1017 in general judge just some of the wording within 1017 on page three uh the first paragraph the definition of great bodily harm is included based upon our request um we're comfortable with great Bly harm means uh other serious permanent bodily injury um as opposed to the entire definition my understanding the state wants the entire definition Mr Anderson we have a legal definition I think it makes sense to use the legal definition I believe that the this is the legal definitions out of the statute there's also a jury instruction with this definition that's what I used um I didn't feel comfortable taking Parts out of it because didn't know how the attorneys intended to argue so the entire definition is in there I think the attorneys can use whichever portions they choose to use but it is a correct statement of the law next objection um the paragraph in red regarding provocation uh I previously filed document 318 in which we had submitted a modified version of jury instruction 815 um I sent that again last night via email um to everybody at the Court's request um I believe that that is a more accurate rendition of the law it's our position is as outlined in document 318 that the state needs to specify uh what was the unlawful conduct uh which was at the type to provoke others to attack uh and that I also that there is a need in this paragraph for the court to tell the jury that it is the law that they have to prove the unlawful conduct which is the basis for the provocation Beyond Reason doubt I appreciate that have to disprove self-defense but since provocation is the states attempt to put a hurdle in front of whether we even get self-defense I think it needs to be made clear in that paragraph that it's the state's burden to prove the provocation occurred Beyond Reasonable Doubt and again I'm happy to go on in more detail but I think the document number 318 with the case law that's cited in footnotes um is a better argument than what I'm verly making right now Mr Anderson it's a pattern jury instruction I looked at the motion filed by defense The Authority they used were two Washington State cases from the 1980s um that there's been I didn't see that it's been adopted in any other state since the 1980s I saw a couple California cases that cited to them that were overturned um there's no such Authority in Wisconsin to modify the pattern jury instruction it's drafted by the jury instruction committee to conform with Wisconsin law so the closest thing I could found find I includeed in my response which is directly negated a Minnesota court case that was cited so I don't see the reason or the authority to modify it just to we're clear the jury instructions aren't law the jury instructions are a committees uh recommendations as to what the court can instruct the jury as to what the law is but I appreciate we're asking for a modification but in response to the state it seems like the state is saying I need to have some authority to say why we shouldn't use B15 in the manner that it's here and a I provided Authority um I agree that it's not Wisconsin because there's no issue on point in Wisconsin but I think we all agree we at least we did yesterday in Chambers that the burden is on the state to prove provocation Beyond A Reasonable Doubt so if we all agree that that's the law we the purpose of the jury instructions is to tell the jury the law then why wouldn't we want to include that in this paragraph to make it clear I can tell you judge and I understand my understanding is not the basis but you know there lots of uh lawyers involved in this case and I think we all agree that this 29 pages of jury instructions is probably some of the most complicated reading we've ever done in our legal careers and so anything we can do to simplify it I think is is a worthwhile for a group of eventually 12 people who do not have law decreas so under the self-defense statute Mr MW loses the privilege of self-defense if he provokes an attack uh by unlawful conduct so I'm hearing two arguments one is that the phrase unlawful conduct must be identified and defined the other is that the instruction should include some reference to the burden of proof Beyond A Reasonable [Music] Doubt uh in terms of the modifications requested by the defense uh no Wisconsin case law supports the request uh the reference to unlawful conduct is part of the self-defense statute section 93948 the phrase is not an element of a crime that may require more specificity second the phrase is not limited to a single act it is Broad enough to include multiple acts whether they be criminal Acts or torous acts but acts nonetheless that would cause a reasonable person to physically react in this case there is credible evidence that Mr you engaged in unlawful conduct during his encounter with the tubers uh there is credible evidence that his conduct was of a type likely to revoke an attack by others the jury will need to evaluate that conduct and the conduct of others and determine how it affects the self-defense claim um so while I understand some of the issues that other states have wrestled with in Wisconsin we do not have any authority to support the specificity um that is being requested uh by the defense as far as the burden of proof I also decline to uh modify the language um in my judgment the pattern instruction uh is adequate and it correctly States the law uh I don't want to make modifications that could potentially be confusing or misleading and I think by adding additional language about the burden of proof with regard to provocation could do just that it is true uh that the state has the burden of disproving self-defense Beyond a reasonable doubt the state has the burden of proving every fact necessary for a finding of guilt Beyond A Reasonable Doubt I relied on the pattern instructions uh those instructions repeatedly uh instruct the jury on these basic points uh adding more language about the burden of proof to the provocation paragraph could confuse the jury because it would imply an obligation to prove provocation the state is not required to prove provocation the state is required to disprove self-defense the state may achieve that in a number of ways provocation is one of them uh if the state elects to disprove self-defense by way of provocation then the state will need to prove it Beyond A Reasonable Doubt and the pattern instructions adequately instruct the jury about that burden so those are the reasons why I'm denying uh any additional modifications were there other objections to uh 1017 yes judge the next paragraph uh I don't believe that there's a factual basis for that which would normally be a bracketed portion of 8:15 and that is the paragraph a person who provokes an attack whether by lawful or unlawful conduct with intent to use such an attack as an excuse and then it goes on that's the sentence which I don't believe that there is a factual basis to support its inclusion in 1017 Mr Anderson before before he even ran up on the boys he touched his knife in his pocket uh he kept touching his knife in his pocket while people were telling him to leave he took out his knife and still nothing happened and then Witnesses say he punched Maddie after they responded he started stabbing people so I think it's it's not a huge stretch to argue that he punched Maddie to provoke the response that would give him an argument for self-defense is that really the state's Theory I think there's an argument sure is that the state's Theory I don't think it's going to what I'm going to argue to the jury but I would mention if they believe that again the optional paragraph that we're talking about is an accurate statement of the law a judge's decision to give an instruction is discretionary but it has to be based on the facts of the case so are there facts to believe that Mr Mew was looking to stab people but just needed the right excuse and he punched Madison Cohen so he'd have that excuse that's what you're saying yes that's an argument we could make help me better understand the facts then that leads you to that argument also is it an argument that you're going to make because if you're not going to make it I'm not going to include it because it's not relevant I was planning on briefly mentioning it um and then moving on to other theories or other um theories of the case but I I think I've gave my argument judge of I mean we're asking that it not be included these are complicated instructions the I don't think they've met their burden to prove that a reasonable jury could think that I your honor I know is very uh judicial in letting juries decide things that are jury matters but it sounds like your honor has even in that interpretation skepticism as to how any reasonable jury could think that and there no not necessarily that I'm just it seems to run in the face contrary to the the theory that I've heard um but you know it's the state's case and if you want to give them a menu of options it's your choice I'll include it um next next judge and I this is I I know this is not efficient but this as applies to this case the effective law of self-defense I think those next five bullet points the wording of it well implies that the burden of proof is with Mr Mew and he doesn't have to prove that his belief was reasonable so you're talking about Pages three and four correct bu points correct those five bullet points under as the as applies to this case the effective law of self-defense is again it's a summary I don't think it's necessary I appreciate that it's part of the standard but I think it flips the burden within those five bullet points because it implies that it's our they have to believe the jury has to find his belief was reasonable which isn't what they have to find The Jury has to find that the state has Pro proven his belief was unreasonable that's different I understand the objection I I'm going to include it it's part of the pattern instruction while I have discretion to deviate from the pattern instruction I see no reason for doing so here um what the bullet points do in my opinion is put all of this law uh into context of how it fits together with the uh lesser includeds and a finding of not guilty um it puts it in five bullet points um and I think it ENC capsulized a lot of different concepts and gives the jury a understandable road map for the thought process that they can utilize in reaching their verdict uh in no way does it uh suggest that Mr Mew has the burden of proving any of these elements uh it just describes uh the way it all fits together um in fact on page four uh the paragraph immediately after the bullet point refers to the state's burden of proving all facts necessary to constitute the crime uh is beyond a reasonable doubt um later in the instruction uh the court provides uh much greater detail on the elements of proof and what needs to be considered again there's more reference to the burden of proof being on the state uh so I think that the um law is accurate and does not mislead the jury anything else yes the next paragraph the use of the word established I think it should be so the paragraph reading instead I think it should read instead you will be asked to determine whether the state has cross out established and put proven Beyond A Reasonable Doubt and then go back to the standard language L me which page um page four the paragraph underneath the five the four bullet points points the second sentence beginning with the word instead the fourth line down second word in is established I think that that word should be crossed out and we should use the word proven and then we should include Beyond A Reasonable Doubt just we use proof all the other times and now here in this section we use established I just think it's a more accurate to say proven and obviously it is their burden to prove it the necessary facts Beyond a reason without so exactly what was said in the sentence right before it which is why I'm that's why it doesn't make sense to me if we use the word prove in the first sentence why are we using the word establish in the second sentence and the word establish in the third sentence even if you don't include Beyond Reasonable Doubt which I understand your owner says the first sentence covers that just change the word established to proven at least then we're consistent with that language I'm going to leave it as is I don't want a Wordsmith uh too much it's not misleading I think it's accurate the first sentence clearly states the state's burden to prove all facts necessary to constitute a crime Beyond A Reasonable Doubt um and then uh I think for probably flow and just general understanding uses the word established um I think it is implicit that is established Beyond a Reasonable Doubt uh there's really no other way to read uh those following sentences uh what's next page six the last paragraph I appreciate that the standard language says You must not find him guilty I think the simpler language is You must find him not guilty how how can that possibly be correct because the verdicts are guilty and not guilty and so completely ignores the Lesser included no it says if you are not so sat in my reading it would say if you are not So Satisfied you must find him not guilty of first-degree intentional and you must consider the next one but they're not returning a not- guilty verdict I appreciate that they're not putting out a verdict but I think that that's the finding I'm going to leave it as is I I okay there's a lesser included there's a sequence they start with first degree if they don't agree there they go to second degree and so on and so forth and at the end is when they would reach the not guilty if they are not uh persuaded on guilt for any of the charged or lesser included offenses putting in you must find him not guilty I think would uh be misleading and contrary to law um anything else in that instruction no judge oh well I mean I'm sorry um next is Page uh uh8 on the paragraph determining whether beliefs were reasonable the last sentence of that paragraph instead of his acts I should think it should say the alleged crimes because we're not assessing his beliefs about anything other than his beliefs at the time that he committed these alleged crimes so if you include from the standpoint of the time of his Acts it's much broader and that's we're not trying to establish the reason Moses has have his beliefs at in the first 1 minute and 49 seconds of that video there's nothing about the reasonableness of his beliefs then it's only about the reasonable of beliefs when he committed these crimes so I'm just asking that his acts be crossed out and replaced by the alleged crimes or the charged crimes I'm going to leave it as is I don't want a Wordsmith it's it's an accurate statement of the law this is a pattern instruction by the jury instruction committee which is a committee of I think at least 10 judges um this instructions have been vetted and reviewed and studied and um in my judgment 10 mins are better than one and I just don't feel comfortable word smithing and changing words without fully appreciating and understanding uh the effect that those changes may have to the broader meaning of the instruction and again I'm not I I understand I just want to make sure my point is clear for the record I disagree I don't think it's an accurate statement of the law but I heard your honor and we'll move on okay anything else [Music] um uh same complaint on page eight about the the wording of not find Mr Mew guilty as opposed to uh find Mr Mew not guilty but I again understand your Honor's previous ruling would be consistent to overrule my objection next uh yep I'm I'm working through this judge I'm going as fast as I can uh page 10 under jury's decision again the same issue comes up that your honored previously mentioned that's all on 10117 Judge okay I believe I previously mentioned State V Austin and well I would prefer the elements of the crime on page nine include self-defense I appreciate that consistent with Austin element number two includes the language required by Austin and element number three includes the language required by Austin so um I'll just leave it at that that was my assessment as well when I read Austin and uh considered your comments from yesterday looks like those pieces of law were already incorporated into the pattern instruction just may not be in the position that you preferred 1072 on page any objections Mr Anderson on this state no uh 1072 uh first paragraph uh second sentence the the word attempted is left out all right thank you anything else in that paragraph uh no judge all right um I imagine you have similar objections to 1072 that you had in 1017 yes judge the bullet points on page 12 um and in particular which I again I'm not trying to I make the same arguments I appreciate your Honor's previous ruling um but nevertheless I make those arguments at the bottom of page 12 in red where it talks about first degree recklessly endangering safety I believe you would need to add at the end of that sentence and is at the end of the bullet point at the top of page 13 to be consistent with Austin which we previously stated you should add the words at the end of that and did not act lawfully in self-defense so what I did when 1017 provided a nice pattern instruction for uh first degree intentional homicide with the three lesser includeds and self-defense there wasn't a similar pattern instruction for attempted uh first-degree homicide with the Lesser includeds and self-defense so what I did is I tried to mirror the modifications in red to what exists in 10 17 uh basically followed the same flow the same uh thought process uh and that's where I came up with the language in red um the Austin language is included where I Define the uh crime in more detail um the bullet points on pages 12 and 13 are simply the instructions effort to put everything into context in a way that is uh simple and understandable for the jury this isn't the instruction itself about the elements of the offense or the things that the state has to prove Beyond a reasonable doubt this is just an explanation like the um introductory language that precedes it to help the jury better understand how these lesser included offenses all fit together if I may my concern is well I hear your honor the argument that I'm making now I would go back on 1072 page 4 um in request and again I understand your honor that the same seven words and did not act lawfully and self-defense be added on page four in the summary of first degree Reckless homicide and second degree Reckless homicide otherwise when we talk about both in 1070 1017 as and in 1072 when we talk about the intentional crimes self-defense is included in that summary when you talk about the Reckless it isn't which if somebody just goes and does a quick glance without doing a deep dive it may uh I'm worried the jury would think they just look at that and then they don't have to think about self-defense and so add those seven words I don't think is contrary to the law and I don't think it's confusing I think it's just correct I disagree because Austin didn't say you need to look at utter disregard for human life and self-defense separately what Austin said is that someone does not act in utter disregard for human life when they're acting in self-defense now that may be a small subtle Nuance um but I think it's an important one and the concept of self-defense is uh subsumed in the term utter disregard for human life that's the way that Austin presented it and that's how the instruction uh reads when you get to the detailing of the elements of the offense right uh what else do you have uh on the paragraph on page 13 the same arguments I made before about the difference between the use of the word establish as opposed to proven just again note the similar objection noted um at the last sentence um which I also on page 13 it's the same last sentence as is on page four in 1017 and so I want to incorporate this argument for both instead of using the words you will be instructed to find Mr munak guilty I think this is the instructions so I think you should just say you must find Mr Mew not guilty I don't know I'm sorry you lost me where are you I'm the last on the on page 13 the paragraph beginning because the law provides are you with me no the top of page 13 under the red bullet point yes the last sentence of that paragraph the words will be instructed I think those words should be crossed out and say must it implies you will be instructed to find Mr Mew not guilty the literal meaning is that as I'm not telling you that now but I'm going to tell it to you later and I get it it's is it meaningful it is to me oh I think the word should be you must find Mr Mew not guilty because you're instructing them now in this moment you're not telling them about what you're going to do at a future moment which is what it implies in this sentence what difference does it make that's what I'm that's what I don't understand the if it doesn't make a difference then why wouldn't we agree why no it's not the way it works you tell me it's different and I'll consider making a change because this implies I'm not telling you that right now right I'm going to tell you that later but we don't actually tell them that later we do when do you say if the state does not satisfy those facts as established by the evidence you will be instructed when do you give that instruction it's in a I'm looking at page 20 for one if you are not So Satisfied referring back to the previous paragraph you must find him not guilty and I believe it's also in 140 okay I stand by my argument I appreciate your Honor's comments but I um anything else in this instruction um same on page 16 determining whether beliefs were reasonable the same arguments that I had made previously uh when discussing 10 17 okay the objections noted I just need to I'm I got about this far judge so if I I know it's not fun to watch anybody read but that's as far as I got in my in-depth reading before um Mr Anderson do you have any uh concerns or objections to 1072 no judge I'll also say too I changed my mind on the asking for a special change instruction on defense of others I think I can make the argument with the provocation instruction thank you you weren't going to get it anyway all right let's um I don't want to just gloss over the rest of 1072 but we'll put it aside for the moment let's continue on because I think the others are probably pretty easy um there was a request yesterday to um use 1220a with the self-defense battery any objection no and this I I trust this is 122a and so it should be okay um yes then thank you we agree I think the the red language is is the new stuff sure that's the difference um continuing on uh 990 I think there was a request last night to include the more robust definition of great bodily harm which I included it's in the red text the same definition that you saw earlier uh it's repetitive but one came at the beginning this one comes at the end so the rest are kind of sandwiched in between no objection I'll continue on uh 140 burden of proof there was a request last night for a modification to the last sentence uh which I made it's in the red text no objection from the state uh we filed our previous objections and writing and I appreciate the modification thank you okay uh continuing on uh 103 evidence defined uh 170 circumstantial evidence last night again this is I'm referring to last night I'm talking about the uh Chambers conversation off the Record uh Mr Anderson requested uh 172 so I included that any comment we object Mr Anderson why do you think it's Justified the evidence is that he walked away changed his appearance um tubed past the chaos yeah discarded the knife tried to walk past an officer and essentially it was only apprehended because he was recognized from the photo so I think it's appropriate I think the facts support the instruction obviously there's uh competing inferences uh different arguments can be made uh but this instruction is an accurate statement of the law and we'll give the attorneys a platform for making those instruction or those arguments uh continuing on uh 157 remarks of council 155 exhibits 148 objections 147 improper questions 190 weight of evidence 195 juror's knowledge 300 credibility 160 closing arguments 460 closing instruction 485 verdict submitted uh with lesser included counts and concluding with 515 um Mr Nelson does your client request any special instructions regard regarding his decision to testify no judge I think it's 3:15 correct judge do not want it we do not want it okay do hold on just so we're clear judge I'm not asking for the instruction obviously the law is the law is the law and either side well they won't quote from 3:15 they can make arguments consistent with 315 absolutely uh did either of you look at the wording of the verdict I did and I as I and I appreciate it's perhaps different with lesser includeds but it's you know our position that uh since he's Presumed Innocent that the verdict of not guilty is the is the First Choice Mr Anderson I I don't have anything to add judge I know that this is the standard way and I don't see a reason to change it yeah I understand the the sentiment of wanting to have the not guilty read first uh I don't think it makes a difference one way or the other I don't think it is suggestive uh which verdict is read first um the reason why I organize it the way I do is because I think it's consistent with the order of proof uh the state going first uh the fense going second so that's the way I order it um is there anything that you think I missed that should be included no judge I just want a chance to finish reading 1072 yes and what I propose we do is adjourn for the night since it's um five o'clock uh I'd like to have the attorneys come back tomorrow at 8 and we can pick up the instruction conference that will give um the attorneys a little bit of extra time to look at 1072 since that instruction did have a substantial amount of additions uh given the um late edition of the Lesser included offenses so we can pick up where we left off um but at least this gives me a clear indication that um most of um what's been prepared is going to be delivered is there anything else that you think we need to address nothing I can think of I guess we did have the I think these might not have get gotten numbers I had diagram dist up Mark did was it marz um this is 90 exhibit 90 that was the illustration Mr me right so 90 will be received just for purposes of illustration it's not evidence of course 62 is lotys do you have any objection no that's 62a correct yes all right 62a is received anything else from the state we have the blown up photo of Isaac but we also admitted the normal size so I don't unless defense I don't think we have to mark it and admit it no position it's up to you gu as well all right 91 yes right so 91 is the uh portrait of Isaac blown up the 8 by11 was already received into EV anything else Mr Anderson no Mr Nelson anything else Jo judge all right so we'll pick up on the instructions um and then be prepared to 8:30 with arguments shortly all good night everyone we are [Music] adjourned