Cosmic Skeptic on Consciousness, Death, and the Self | Philosophy Podcast

[00:00:00]Tom.

[00:00:00]>> Jack.

[00:00:01]>> Tom, how are you feeling today?

[00:00:02]>> I'm feeling good. Yeah.

[00:00:03]>> Inquisitive.

[00:00:04]>> Oh, yeah. I'm feeling well. Inquisitive.

[00:00:06]>> How's your brain feeling? Big.

[00:00:07]>> My mate. Huge. Pouring out my ears.

[00:00:10]>> Thinking cap is on.

[00:00:11]>> Steadied.

[00:00:13]>> That was fun. Audio listeners won't get it, but we we >> I studied my imaginary cap. Put a fake cap on. Yeah.

[00:00:18]>> Is your thinking cap on?

[00:00:19]>> Oh, yeah. I'm ready for a big chat. This is going to be probably, if you like the deep chats, this is probably going to be the deepest episode we ever do.

[00:00:25]Hopefully >> it's you're genuinely over the next hour viewer wherever you are on the toilet in a car or those are the two options >> or Brazil.

[00:00:32]>> Brazil your mind is going to be expanding. It's going to be mental cuz we have on the legendary the Mr. Smarts himself >> Alex O' Connor.

[00:00:41]>> Shut up. I'm talking.

[00:00:43]>> Shut up. I'm talking. I'm talking.

[00:00:47][music] I'm talking.

[00:00:50]>> Shut up. Shut up. [laughter] >> There you go.

[00:00:53]>> How was that? There you go.

[00:00:55]>> Nailed. Absolutely nailed.

[00:00:57]>> I suppose I should have watched people do that before before I gave that a go.

[00:00:59]But >> I think you did wonderful.

[00:01:01]>> It's fine. We gave you the privilege, which we don't do many people, of actually explaining that to you before the episode rather than after the cameras are rolling.

[00:01:08]>> Sounds great.

[00:01:08]>> A lot of people have heard us just explain that to the guests and it's really awkward. So, >> how are you?

[00:01:13]>> Doing all right. Doing all right.

[00:01:14]>> Yeah. All right. Getting the train down.

[00:01:15]>> Very well. Just about. I'm sorry I'm late, but having having a wonderful time here.

[00:01:19]>> They didn't know. You didn't have to say that. Now they know.

[00:01:22]>> Yeah, I know. But, you know, it it makes me look like a bad person. But, one must be honest if we're going to be ethically consistent.

[00:01:27]>> Oh, we're already starting. It's already kicking up.

[00:01:29]>> How honest, though? Cuz when does honesty become rude, >> you know? That is an interesting question actually. And and what quite counts as honesty? Like I I sort of really don't like lying ever, but you find yourself sort of playing tricks against yourself saying like as long as you technically say something that's true, it doesn't really matter. Like I could have said to you, you know, like, "Oh, I'm sorry I'm late." And then I could have just said something like, "Oh, like traffic was really bad." And it might be true the traffic was really bad. But that might not be like why I'm late. So I haven't told you a lie, but I kind of lied by you said just tell us that you just were late to the train.

[00:02:01]>> But the lying seems to be about the intention, you know? It seems to be about like what are you trying what's the message you're trying to get across?

[00:02:05]Cuz no one ever means what they say.

[00:02:07]Like when you say words, you very rarely mean the exact word you say.

[00:02:11]>> Can we should we introduce you?

[00:02:12][laughter] Right, Alex. Let's just let's just bloody hell. Alex, you know, do you want to introduce yourself to the people?

[00:02:20]Well, I feel like you could do it more aptly than I ever did.

[00:02:21]>> I can give it a go. I'm a podcaster, YouTuber. Um, I talk about philosophy and religion and religious history. Got a degree in theology. Um, and that's about it really. I just talk about philosophy all the time.

[00:02:33]>> Cosmic Skeptic.

[00:02:34]>> That's right. That's my That's my username handle. It used to You guys will know like when you're on YouTube, you sort of come up with a sort of funky name and then things start going well and you start getting invited to very serious things and you have to sort of go like, >> "Yeah, my name's, you know, I'm done with that. Tommy in it or whatever and you know in some context it's a little bit sort of trick. So I decided a little while ago to sort of get rid of the cosmic skeptic thing. It's still my handle because it's got a sort of place in my heart but but these days the I was channel nut pig Alex.

[00:03:01]>> Yeah. Really? [laughter] And then you went over to Tommy in it which was much more professional.

[00:03:05]>> Tommy in it and now I'm you know toying with Tom Simons but I'm I just can't let go of it in it.

[00:03:09]>> It's the classic thing isn't it? it it in it where like you you sort of have a you sort of have a YouTube name and at some point you think should I just become my naked self? Um I know everybody everyone I know has gone through this at some point. Other podcasters and YouTubers and the likes they're always considering using the real name. I mean I think it was a great move but that's because I'm trying to take myself you know a bit seriously in a very sort of boring way.

[00:03:32]>> His real name is Jamar Fold.

[00:03:34]>> Yeah it's true. It's not a stage name ask you know and and how's that going for you?

[00:03:37]>> It's been great. I find people it's it's a very interesting sort of thing because I think a lot of people are very concerned about privacy when and that's the reason they have these sort of like handles. But what I found was once you if you just out the gate present your information to people >> they naturally like they're like less curious. Yeah.

[00:03:54]>> So like out of all the people I know have had privacy issues, I've had the least because people like they feel like they already know what they need to know. So they don't dig into me.

[00:04:00]>> Exactly.

[00:04:00]>> Jack, people want to know what's behind closed doors. I'm trying to match the level that [laughter] I just wanted to your little philosoph want want what they can't have.

[00:04:13]>> Yes, >> that's true. Why is that?

[00:04:15]>> They want your information. They want your And that's why if you use coupon code expressvpn.com, >> right, Alex, what was your worst moment of the week? We ask every guest this, it's your worst moment.

[00:04:26]>> Okay, so I was thinking about this and >> good >> in the bathroom 10 minutes ago.

[00:04:31]>> I was. Yeah. And that might have been my worst moment of the week just then, but but to not get too meta. Um I I was in Oxford recently. My girlfriend has just started a PhD there. And in Oxford they do this metriculation ceremony where you dress up in in this. It's where you like join the university. It's like the official ceremony by which you become a member, right? And they dress up in in like the academic gowns and stuff and they all like there's like thousands of students all shuffling into this 700 seater theater in and out, right? And I was like running around like I want to get a picture, you know? I thought this would be this would be really good. And everyone metriculates on the same day.

[00:05:04]So I went to Oxford and I graduated in 2021. So I've been gone for years and I was back and some people recognize me from YouTube, right?

[00:05:12]>> And so I'm trying to get like a picture, but like there's the the theater's like gated off and whatnot. So I find this sort of this fence where I can I can like climb up on the wall up against the gate and I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to be able to get like a really nice picture." But obviously there are so many students going in and out. I don't know when the right moment's going to be. So people kept walking past and bear in mind that the majority of the people who are metriculating are like undergraduates. They're like 18y olds >> and they're walking past and they're like [laughter] >> Alex guy like with his camera [laughter] >> Alex Okconor and then that guy off YouTube and so I think you know like thinking that I'd come back to as if as if I do this like every year since I graduated I just [laughter] sort of come back and climb the fence and stuff. It it did feel a little bit awkward but I had to I had to power >> my girlfriend's in there.

[00:06:01]>> Yeah. Yeah. That that kind of makes it sound worse when people don't know that the postgraduates are >> metriculating on the same day. So So that might be that might be the worst.

[00:06:10]>> A bad moment.

[00:06:10]>> No YouTubers safe, man.

[00:06:12]>> No.

[00:06:12]>> No. We thought it was just in the Minecraft.

[00:06:14]>> Yeah. Usually it's just the Minecraft a lot that get that reputation, but I guess I guess it's everywhere.

[00:06:18]>> Yeah. I'm holding the holding the torch for you guys. Yeah. [laughter] >> Thanks, mate.

[00:06:24]>> Right. Well, we have a lot of questions, >> but we wanted to start off with one that we kind of like to ask everyone. What was what's your early life like? What why why what brings you to sort of study theology in in Oxford? Like how do you get there? What where's the intrigue?

[00:06:39]>> It's a good question and a long one which I'll try to a bridge in that I was raised a Roman Catholic and not super steadfastly. I was like an alter boy, you know, where they they wear the gowns and they swing the incense and stuff, but like I couldn't have told you anything about religion or philosophy. I didn't know anything. And then you get to like teenage years and you start thinking this is all nonsense and you read Richard Dawkins and the God Delusion, you think that's all that's all a load of nonsense. And I got really interested in philosophy through those debates through the sort of religion is false, that kind of stuff. And then I started this YouTube channel and it was kind of the wrong way around. Like I was, you know, 16, 17. I was making videos about all kinds of stuff. I used to make skateboarding videos and guitar tutorials and stuff.

[00:07:19]>> And one time I started talking about religion and people like picked up on it and they liked it. So, I made another one. And then you start getting asked these questions like, "Oh, but like you know, if you don't agree with this religion thing, then where do you where do you get your morality from or and I'm like, oh gosh, yeah, okay, good question. I'll I'll have a look at that and think about it."

[00:07:35]>> And so, it was kind of the wrong way around. I started making the videos and I was interested and I had things to say that I'd learned from like Richard Dawkins or whatever, but I'd never like done a deep study. And so, the YouTube channel started going well and then I thought, "This is great. I want to study this." So, I then applied for university and at Oxford where I never thought I'd get in. People say this, but I really did not think I'd get in cuz my grades weren't very good at AS level. I got like AB. Oh, no. Well, the first time I got three U's and a D. I I failed my exams. Overslept one of them at 1 in the afternoon. I overslept my my A levels.

[00:08:05]>> And so I had to retake and I got like ABC and it was a really sort of audacious thing to do to apply to Oxford. But >> yeah, >> I think because of the YouTube channel, >> I could sort of put on my statement and be like, you know, like look, I promise I'm really really into philosophy and stuff.

[00:08:18]>> Wow. Cool.

[00:08:20]>> I think I I mean you never know but I think that might have had something to do with it because they'll look at the grades and say you know ABC if you can get predicted the right grades you know you you meet the requirements if you get those grades >> but like you know compared to other students who who have this great academic record but if I can say look academics have been patchy but I promise you I've got a passion for this subject.

[00:08:38]>> Yeah they might let me in and that might be what did it but they don't let you study philosophy on its own at Oxford.

[00:08:43]You can't do it.

[00:08:44]>> So what did you philosophy?

[00:08:45]>> You have to do it with something. So it has to be philosophy and they'll do philosophy and French, philosophy and maths, philosophy and physics, like so many options. And one of them is philosophy and theology, study of religion.

[00:08:55]>> Okay, that's >> and so I picked that because it was like, >> well, I'm interested in religion and I'd rather do pure philosophy, but sure, I'll do theology if I have to do something. And I'm so glad that they made me do that because now my interest in theology has sort of gone through the roof.

[00:09:08]>> So I'm very glad of it.

[00:09:10]>> Wow, that's fascinating. And and have you you know I've sort of noticed a minute ago even when we asked just about like channel names you really considered it and took it into like consideration.

[00:09:19]Have you always been quite a deep thinker or did this evolve with age or uh well I don't I don't know and I don't I don't know being a deep thinker. I mean it it it's like an implicit compliment. It's like, you know, someone thinks deep and that that's that's nice of you to say, but I'm not sure if I >> I think I maybe I just spend more time with these questions than than a lot of people do. And that's just a point of interest. You know, it's like, you know, thinking is so celebrated because, you know, it's linked to intelligence and things like that that people like. But if you if you're interested in anything, you'll just spend more time than other people doing it. And so >> I've just always been interested in it and spent a lot of time thinking about God's existence and the arguments and watching debates and stuff like that.

[00:10:00]>> And what is it that interests you about it? Originally, it was the theater of it, you know? It was like, yeah, like like these debates, these these new atheists from like the mid 2000s, Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens, and >> these guys would give these incredible speeches, particularly Christopher Hitchens, a journalist who died in 2011.

[00:10:19]And >> he gave these like roaring speeches and he spoke so eloquently. It was the greatest rhetoric in the past, you know, 50 years at least. And it just it it galvanizes you, you know, it really perks you up. And I thought, gosh, I I want to do that. And so there's a >> And then I thought, yeah, like I love the idea of debating. And then public speaking became really fun.

[00:10:39]>> I really enjoyed doing that. And I realized when when my first ever public talk kind of went well, I was like, this is awesome. This is so much fun. And so it was >> it just so happened that the subject matter that that brought me into that was philosophy and religion. And now >> I'm much less interested in the in the debating and the theater and much more interested in the philosophy and the theology.

[00:10:59]>> Wow. So it sort of came in, you know, through the back door.

[00:11:03]>> Yeah, man. That's fascinating. Right.

[00:11:05]And you know, we we've [laughter] >> Sorry, just to answer the first question. God, we're kicking it off.

[00:11:11]>> Right. We I've taken a, you know, in a lot of your stuff over this past, you know, since we've found out that we're having you on and spoke to a lot of our mates and they've been [ __ ] going, "No [ __ ] way. You are one of [laughter] our most friends."

[00:11:23]>> I'll be honest with you, mate. You're up there with Dan and Phil in terms of excitement for having on right now. You know, it's you and Dan and Fer are rivaling. Okay. Given the two of them and one of you, that's pretty [ __ ] smart to hear.

[00:11:34]>> You're well smart. And we have a lot of chats on this podcast about big picture things.

[00:11:39]>> We started asking every guest this.

[00:11:41]>> Every guest we've started asking this next question. The thing is we talk about big picture things with what I can describe as only opinions.

[00:11:49]>> We have little to no facts. So, we're really quite excited to have you on today to kind of iron out a lot of our thoughts. So, we have a lot of big picture questions if that's all right with you. Absolutely. Yeah. Ready for anything.

[00:11:59]>> Mr. O, is it Mr. Oon or Mr. Connor?

[00:12:02]Okonner.

[00:12:02]>> Didn't know if O was a middle name.

[00:12:04]>> Um [laughter] >> Um Mr. O' Conor, what happens when we die?

[00:12:12]Well, [laughter] >> it's a great question and it might be the most motivating question of human activity.

[00:12:19]>> Okay.

[00:12:19]>> Um cuz we're like quite unique amongst other animals in that, you know, all animals are going to die. All life dies.

[00:12:27]objects, you know, fall apart and cease to exist at some point. But most of them don't like know that that's going to happen, right? But we do. We know that we're going to die.

[00:12:37]>> And so there's something sort of exclusively motivating about that for human beings. And so we've spent a lot of time thinking about what's going to happen when we die. And one important question to ask is, well, where do you think you came from in the first place?

[00:12:50]Because these questions are are related.

[00:12:52]Because if you if you're like a materialist atheist, you think that all that exists is just like atoms and and stuff and consciousness is just this sort of, you know, this this mystical emergent property that just happened to evolve. You then you could think like there was a point before which you were both born. Where where were you before you were born? Where did you come from?

[00:13:13]Right. Do you do you remember?

[00:13:14]>> I don't know.

[00:13:15]>> Are you like you might have an answer.

[00:13:17]>> No, I don't. are you like attached to, you know, wherever you might have been before before you were born? Have you got any sentimentality about it? It sort of feels like it's a bit of a nonquest and some people for for some people it's enough to console themselves to just say like like I think it was, you know, someone like Mark Twain, although he always gets attributed quotes that he didn't actually say that says something like, you know, look, I'm I'm not worried about not existing. You know, I I I did that for like billions of years and I got on just fine. It wasn't a problem. And that's that's where I'm going to go back. Um, so if if you think that, you know, human consciousness can kind of spring out of out of nowhere, you know, after with some, you know, biological cause, but the the awareness, the consciousness just sort of appears at some point during the formation of this embryo. Then presumably when that stuff goes away, the consciousness just disappears as well. And so as far as you're concerned, nothing.

[00:14:10]>> But this is what I that bothers me.

[00:14:12]>> Yeah. Because I don't No, it's one of my big fears is dying. I think, you know, and I just don't But my biggest fear is doing nothing. Yeah.

[00:14:19]>> Like I don't I really don't want to be bored.

[00:14:21]>> Well, you wouldn't be doing No, because you wouldn't you wouldn't be around to be bored. You wouldn't be aware that you're where I start getting.

[00:14:26]>> It's like you're not you're not doing nothing. There is no you doing anything.

[00:14:30]It's like the difference between saying like, you know, >> but does that not freak you out?

[00:14:33]>> Of course. Of course. Like, and this is just >> how have you found comfort?

[00:14:36]>> Well, there there are a few ways. I mean the first is to say and this is only for a start and I'm aware [laughter] we can we can give it we can give it a crack. I think um you know this assumes I said like if you're a materialist atheist because that's kind of the worst position on this is like if there is Yeah. I mean >> I find that interesting. I don't know if I agree like the least concern atheist >> the the one where he was like yeah it's just stuff and like I mean there's like for for somebody who's scared of death at the very least this this seems to be probably the the most anxietyinducing position because the fear is that you're literally just going to cease existing and you have no idea like what's the point in being here in the first place?

[00:15:14]It's all going to be forgotten. All of that kind of stuff. But don't think of it if that were the case. Don't think of it as you doing nothing. There is no you. It's like one of my favorite ways to imagine being blind. It's like when you think about what it would be like not to see, for example.

[00:15:30]>> You might close your eyes and you might think, "Oh, I see see see black." But that's you seeing nothing. But to be blind is to not see anything. It's not you seeing black or you seeing that it's just nothing. Like you know people have sometimes asked you what what do you what can you see out of your left elbow?

[00:15:46]>> What can you see out of your elbow?

[00:15:48]>> That's what like nothing is right. like what you know as Aristotle said I think you know what what do rocks dream about?

[00:15:56]>> Yeah.

[00:15:57]>> Nothing. It's not like it's not some sort of field of quantum fluctuations or some space where your consciousness goes and just sits in utter darkness. It's just like it's not even a thing.

[00:16:08]>> So >> if you're scared of death and you think that that's what death brings, what are you scared of? You know, there's a famous sort of formula for this from an ancient philosopher called Epicurus who essentially says that like death like when you're when you're scared of it, it's not with you. And when it's with you, there's no there's no you. Like there's no point at which it is rational to think that there's no point at which death is bad for you. It's not bad for you now because it's not with you. It's not bad for you then because there's no you. And so there's no point in time at which something is is bad for you. And if you want to say >> that something is bad, like death, it seems like if you want to say something is bad or good or whatever, there needs to be some point in time at which it is true that that thing is bad. If there's no point in time at which it can be truly said X is bad, >> then that just seems to imply that, you know, X isn't bad. There's no time when it's bad. So when is death bad?

[00:17:02]>> I just don't want to stop being me.

[00:17:04]>> Yeah, but I can understand that. Um, but you know, your existential fears might be compounded when you consider what makes you the same person you'll be when you're 45, for example. It's actually very difficult to even know how to account for that person.

[00:17:19]>> Thank you. I mean, but it's it's worth thinking about. You know, you might die a thousand deaths throughout your life.

[00:17:24]I mean, are you the same person you were when you were six? Can you remember being six? Do you share any of the atoms with your six-year-old self?

[00:17:30]>> Can I go into our next question? Can I quickly can I quickly revisit cuz I found it really interesting that you said that um the sort of materialist atheist viewpoint was the most exciting.

[00:17:39]I find that really interesting because to me at least it seems that the sort of theist belief that there's something beyond that could could has the potential to be the scariest. Right.

[00:17:50]>> Actually, yeah, I think you're quite right. The the very worst I think would be that there is an afterlife and that that afterlife is somehow bad.

[00:17:57]>> I'm not permitted to go to or yeah permitted to go to a good one at least.

[00:18:00]So if there's like some kind of hellfire or even if it's just some people are just scared of eternity anyway cuz they imagine that they'll get bored. They'll imagine it's going to be the same thing over and over again. I don't think anything like that exists. So you also asked how I console myself here and for me I've been thinking a lot recently about the mystery of consciousness which is the awareness that goes alongside the material stuff. Yeah. So maybe we'll talk about it more in full later, but I'm so mystified by where consciousness comes from and what it is and like what it what it's sort of made out of and and how we separate out our our individual centers of consciousness that I take quite a lot of consolation in thinking that you know there might be some sense in which my selfhood my sense of unified conscious identity as an individualized self will one day disperse >> but the conscious stuff that makes me up >> might still be around somewhere in the same way that if I take the Empire State Building, which is a really complex organization of of material stuff, and I bulldozed it, >> the Empire State Building would no longer exist, but all the stuff that makes it up. All the important material that went into building it would still be there. It's just not unified into the Empire State Building. And so, I don't know what happens to my consciousness when I die. It might be that >> the sort of consciousness that's currently focused into myself just sort of floods off [snorts] somewhere, you know, and I don't know where that goes, but it might not be the same thing as like, you know, just lights out and nothing matters.

[00:19:27]>> Sure, that's interesting.

[00:19:28]>> Um, just what you were saying there about I can't remember, but you said it a minute ago.

[00:19:33]>> You [laughter] were you did say it. It was going to be a perfect segue and then Jack said something.

[00:19:36]>> I had a really I had to about personal identity through time. you being the same person that you were when you were six.

[00:19:42]>> Something about that. Do you think meaning is something that we discover or something we create? Like do humans intrinsically try to find meaning in everything >> or should we should we and then I wrote should we bother or just have a nice time?

[00:19:55]>> Yeah. Well, maybe those two are the same the same thing. You know, having a nice time isn't always easy. Like sometimes that that takes some proactive effort.

[00:20:03]Um, meaning the first question that needs to be asked is the the the unintentionally ironic question of what does meaning mean? Like when you use the word meaning, what are you talking about? Right? Some some people everybody has a a general understanding of of the kind of thing we're talking about. It's something like, you know, like a reason to to be, a reason to act, a reason to care about stuff. I think like meaning and purpose are synonyms essentially in the way people use them. What's your what's your purpose?

[00:20:33]>> And a purpose, literally speaking, is just a reason to act, >> you know, what is your purpose in, >> you know, writing a a homework essay?

[00:20:42]That's to, you know, get a good grade.

[00:20:45]Um, that is literally the purpose of that action. The grand question of purpose of life is when you just keep asking that question over over again.

[00:20:52]Like, why are you writing the the the paper? Well, to get a good grade. Why do you want a good grade? Well, because then I'll pass my exams. Why do you want to pass your exams? So I can get a good job. Why do you want a good job? So I can make money. Why do you want to make money? So I can provide for my family.

[00:21:06]Why do you want to provide for your family? Because I don't want them to suffer and die. And eventually you'll get to a question that seems a bit silly like, oh well, why don't you want your family to, you know, suffer and die? And most people at some point find themselves just going, >> I just don't I ju that is just it's just as true to me as that the sky is blue. I don't know why the sky is blue. I just know that it is. Right?

[00:21:29]>> I know that you know that suffering would be bad and and wherever that question bottoms out I think is is what your purpose is in life. The question for the philosopher is like well is that purpose justified? You know are we all deluding ourselves? You know does it actually matter? You know oh maybe we should all just suffer and die. Like who cares? And that's when you really get into the weeds. Um but I think that in practice people can discover what their current purpose is by just asking that question and taking it all the way and seeing where it ends. Uh but if you're talking about like you know true meaning like because in theory somebody could say oh I don't care about my family you know >> I don't care about suffering and all that kind of stuff so they're motivated in a different way and their purpose practically speaking might be totally different to yours and so there's a separate question of like are there some purposes which are like true or correct and other purposes which are misguided or wrong. So if you can just create your own purpose, a lot of people say, you know, I'm just going to just going to make up my own meaning in life. You know, there's there's no God, there's no no objective purpose, so I'm just going to make it up, right? Sure. And a lot of people are consoled by that. But that means if someone decides that their meaning in life is just counting the blades of grass in their garden, that's just what they decide is the meaning.

[00:22:43]That's just what they want to do with their lives. and another person decides to devote their life to donating money to Oxfam and fundraising for charity that those two lives are equally meaningful >> because as long as each person feels like that's where they get their meaning from, you know, then they both got meaningful lives. But we kind of look at that and want to say something like, "No, that second person's life is is is actually more meaningful." Even if they feel the same to each person, there's something that's actually more meaningful, which would imply that we believe that there's some correct source of meaning. there's an intrinsic to to people in life.

[00:23:15]>> Yeah. And then the question is where does that come from? So in practice I think people >> discover meaning >> but I think that when it comes to trying to come up with what is like the true correct meaning for human existence most of the time philosophers are essentially inventing you know answers to that to that question.

[00:23:33]>> Um but yeah you can keep you can keep asking that question over and over again. Why do you do this?

[00:23:38]>> And do you have of those philosophers questions? Do you find that you have one that aligns with what you think that you think reigns truest?

[00:23:44]>> I I always struggle to answer questions about meaning because like I I don't I don't know. Um >> I sometimes in my more pessimistic moments I think that we're just sort of evolved apes who have these desires within us. It's like uh the reason you eat is because you're hungry. Mhm.

[00:24:03]>> And I could say to you like, you know, the reason why you feel hunger is because it's an evolutionary advantage because you'll die without food >> and there might have been people who didn't care about their death, but they get wiped out. And it just so happens that the people who survive do care about death because that's why they survived. And hunger develops as an evolutionary tool to make us eat.

[00:24:26]>> And that could be like the real reason why you're feeling hungry, but you are still feeling hungry. So you still have hunger even though I've explained to you why you have it and it's all essentially arbitary. So I could say to you the reason why you feel like you need to get out of the care and stuff like oh it's all just evolution like why do you care more for say your brother than your cousin? Why do you care more for a cousin than a stranger usually all other things being equal? Why? You know, is it because there's some true morality of the universe that says that brothers are worth more than cousins?

[00:24:59]>> Or is it because you happen to share more genetics with your brother than your cousins?

[00:25:04]>> Could that have something to do with the way? So you could say, you know, the reason why you feel these these moral ideas and the purpose that you have in life is just evolution.

[00:25:13]>> It's just it's just some arbitrary selection process. But you still feel it. Still there. Still hungry. You're still going to want to go and get food.

[00:25:21]So you still love your family. You still genuinely and it's not like you know it's not true that you love your family like you you do you can understand why you love your family but that doesn't reduce that love to the explanation explains why you have it in the same way that explaining why you're hungry doesn't make you not hungry.

[00:25:38]>> Yeah sure it's a bit depressing now you know why you're hungry and it's all a bit arbitrary but you're still genuinely hungry. And so if it is all essentially just arbitrary and meaningless, you still feel the meaning, you know, and that's still that's still actually sincere. It's like really something you're actually feeling. You do love people. You do want to get out of bed in the morning.

[00:25:56]>> And that is literally speaking, I think, what people's purposes are.

[00:25:59]>> Yeah. Just whatever drives them.

[00:26:00]>> Yeah. And have you personally found meaning >> on on a practical level? Yes. because you know there are things which I I care about like I >> I care about you know the well-being of myself and the people who I who I care about. Um but if you ask me like well if you were being a philosopher and you said but why should you care about those other people? I think I would have to just say I just do.

[00:26:25]>> I don't know. So have I found meaning? I haven't found a satisfying answer that would convince a psychopath that they should care about other people. you know, like there's some moral truth of the universe that you must abide by. I find it very difficult to say that. But for myself, I just know that I do have particular uh sort of drives. Um, but these two questions are related as well because I've been doing a lot of thinking about consciousness recently as I said >> and this question about where we go after we die and also is there like meaning the idea that consciousness is more like >> foundational and you watch this video.

[00:26:58]Yeah.

[00:27:00]That kind of stuff plays into this too because sorry I showed you just as well.

[00:27:06]>> You're better explaining it than me to be fair. [laughter] >> It probably I I sort of got sat down.

[00:27:11]>> We did. This is the one video I put on.

[00:27:14]>> We watch it just to clue everyone in.

[00:27:16]>> It gets it gets a little bit I'm not sure which video you're talking about.

[00:27:18]>> The one where you spoke a bit about pansychism.

[00:27:20]>> Yeah. So the consciousness is a a great mystery that most people don't spend very much time thinking about at all.

[00:27:28]Like we think that we're interacting with a with a material world around us.

[00:27:31]Right? There's a table here. There's a microphone in front of me. But every single thing that you interact with the universe is through your experience.

[00:27:39]>> Mhm.

[00:27:39]>> Right. You cannot step outside of your own experience. So when I say say that like there's a microphone here, what I mean is that I have a conscious experience of like seeing a microphone.

[00:27:48]I'm having a visual experience. If I shut my eyes, it's not there anymore as far as I'm concerned. Well, okay, but I can touch it. But touch is also a an experience. You know, the hearing is an experience. There's no way that I can interact with this microphone directly.

[00:28:03]You know, we like to think >> you as the conscious >> Yeah. me as like whatever's inside, you know, the brain, you know, the monkey controlling the controlling the sticks.

[00:28:10]You know, there's no way for whatever's inside me to to just sort of reach out and ascertain the real world. It has to be through sensors. So you can imagine like you're you're flying an airplane and you've got this dashboard in front of you and you've got all of these indicators and there are sensors on the outside and the sensors are picking up the air pressure and the altitude and they're showing you on the inside, you know, numbers on the dashboard, right?

[00:28:33]You have to interact with the with the outside world sort of through that dashboard, right? So what you're really interacting with is is a dashboard and the dashboard is is sort of giving you information from the outside. So similarly there is stuff out there but the way we interact with it is all through experience. So like this experience is like foundational to the way we move through the world and it is a complete mystery to us like why experience exists. I mean it seems plausible that there could have just been things like tables and rocks and even if life evolves could all just be sort of oyster brains or jelly. I see what you're saying that sort of automatic sort of you know life goes on because it sort of just does.

[00:29:15]>> There's a concept introduced by by a chap called Bob Kirk uh some decades ago called the philosophical zombie and he imagines somebody who just has a brain just like just like you and I and their brain is firing neurons just the same way and you know when when there's some kind of external stimulus parts of their brain light up and this kind of stuff >> but there's no experience. It does everything that your brain does, but there's no internal world. It's just a robot essentially that that's just has absolutely no internal experience. It seems possible to imagine such a being.

[00:29:46]So, it seems like a complete mystery to philosophers why it is that you've got all this brain stuff going on. You've got electrochemical signals firing in this mushy thing in a skull. But >> that could have just existed. But it comes alongside with this thing called experience, which like a table doesn't have. There's nothing it's like to be a table, but there's something it's like to be us. And that is extremely strange, >> I think. But like, do plants do they feel like pain and stuff, do they?

[00:30:12]>> Well, we don't know. We don't know, right? But it seems intuitively most people want to say fly.

[00:30:17]>> It doesn't seem like they they feel pain, right? And one of the reasons why they it seems like they don't feel pain is because when we look at when we know something's in pain, cuz I I can know when you're in pain. I can know when an animal's in pain. What we can do is we can look at what they've got in common.

[00:30:30]Well, what what what's the same? What's similar between if if I, you know, pinch my finger and it and it really hurts and I pinch your finger and it really hurts.

[00:30:38]You know what what is the same about those two experiences? Well, >> ow.

[00:30:40]>> Yeah, there's there's a reaction.

[00:30:42]>> That's true. So, that's how you that's how I know you're in pain.

[00:30:45]>> But when when I'm looking for like >> Well, how do I know that that's not just someone shouting? How Well, I also know that when I do this, if I scan my brain, there's a particular part of my brain is correlated with the experience. So, when I have the experience, there's a part of the brain that also lights up at the same time. And so when I look at you and I see that in you >> your experience also lines up with this brain activity.

[00:31:07]>> Yeah.

[00:31:08]>> We've got some information there, right?

[00:31:10]And so we could look at an animal and we could say, well, if I cause it pain, if the same if it's got the same part of the brain that we do and it also lights up, we can say it probably feels pain.

[00:31:19]But then you look at a plant which doesn't have a a central nervous system, it doesn't have a brain, >> it lacks the thing which is always correlated with pain in humans. So we say it probably doesn't feel pain. Now, that's not enough to say it definitely doesn't feel pain. We don't know that.

[00:31:34]>> Yeah.

[00:31:34]>> But it seems like it doesn't give it gives us good reason to to doubt it. I want to revisit the um what was it the philosophical zombie you said? Have I got that right?

[00:31:44]>> I find is it interest like conceptually [clears throat] it's very interesting, right? Like like as you said like there's no experience but it's the same.

[00:31:51]I think what I find like or you know there's the neurons it's all firing it's sort of acting the same way. I think what I find difficult about it is is it's like how do you know there's no exper it's like you know you know that exact idea of like >> how do I know that you're not that? How do I know that you're not that? Right?

[00:32:08]Like it's it's like it's like I'm I'm I'm imagining that concept >> like the Truman Show >> be like The Truman Show but everyone's literally a robot.

[00:32:16]>> Yeah. Kind of.

[00:32:17]>> But there's no inner world for anyone else. It could just be you. And you're quite right. You you can't know this.

[00:32:22]And so there are sort of different ways of thinking about this, right? Because some people say, >> "Well, if I imagine the philosophical zombie, >> I just think it would be conscious because if it has the same brain chemistry, then that's just what consciousness is."

[00:32:34]>> And it's kind of up to you to if you can imagine such a being that just doesn't have experience. You take the the experiential part and just switch that off and you leave everything else the same. If you can imagine that, then in your mind, you can separate out the concepts of consciousness and brain activity. But if you're someone who thinks, "No, those are just the same thing," then you might think that that like this philosophical zombie would just be conscious.

[00:32:57]>> I find it difficult to battle with because like I think on on the one hand um again this is part of your video with the panarchism stuff. You know, you what what exactly is the conscious bit, right? Because there's a lot of the brain and I'm not conscious of all of it. Like I'm conscious of some of what is going on in my brain, right? Uh and I think what what what I I find interesting is it does seem that consciousness is simply the awareness of experience right like and and like you know a blind person is still conscious they don't have the experience of sight so it's it's it's not the experiences they're having it's simply that awareness there and at that point >> then I can sort of see well you just remove that bit and all of a sudden the things still go on but like then I think do they if no one is there to exper it's like if a tree falls in the woods sort of argument it's like if no one's there to actually experience these stimuli >> if you take away all the five senses but you leave a conscious no like actively they can still be there it's more if nothing's there to actually experience the things you're talking about the neurons firing and stuff is that not an essential part of the system if you if that if that disappears can it still >> well you just said someone to experience the neurons firing as if you've got the neurons firing and that's a thing which you need somebody to be there to experience. But if you're a materialist, if you think that there's just the brain, it's not that you experience the neurons firing.

[00:34:22]>> It's that the neurons firing just >> is the experience.

[00:34:25]>> Yeah.

[00:34:25]>> So it does feel like all you would have is just the experience itself. And and also when you say like you can imagine somebody who's conscious, but you know, you take away their eyesight and they're still conscious, that's a really helpful thought, right? because it allows [clears throat] you to figure out what we're really talking about when it comes to consciousness because there are things that we're consciously aware of like colors and sounds and stuff, >> but those aren't what consciousness is.

[00:34:48]Those are just some of the things that we're conscious consciously aware of.

[00:34:51]So, yeah, switch off your eyesight and are you still conscious?

[00:34:54]>> Seems like it, right?

[00:34:56]>> Switch off your hearing, you're still conscious, right? And my favorite question to ask people at the moment is what if I switched off your memory? And I don't mean like, you know, you've got dementia or something and you're sort of like, oh gosh, like where am I? Like I I don't remember getting here. I mean like >> the part of your brain that does memory is just gone now. Like there's no such thing as memory in every instant. Yeah.

[00:35:17]Nothing gets laid down. So every single instant, it's like the first time you've ever been conscious of anything ever.

[00:35:22]But you still see, you still hear, you still got all of those receptors, but there's no memory. So every single instant, you wouldn't know that these are your hands. You wouldn't know like what would that be like, do you think?

[00:35:31]Like what what kind of experience do you think that would be like?

[00:35:35]>> Seems really difficult to imagine, right? But it also feels much more simple and rudimentary than the kind of complex experiences we have with memory.

[00:35:45]It would just be like this sort of flash of information, just this flash of of color and sound.

[00:35:50]>> Kids are just full of wonder and excitement. You know what I mean? And there's some suggestion actually that kids kind of experience the world in a in a in a slightly different way as their brains are evolving to the way that we do >> to do with like the hemispheric divide.

[00:36:02]Um but you know what are we talking about then if we're not talking about things like so so for example you said do plants feel pain you know >> because that's what my like does spiders feel pain and like you know sometimes I see a plant and it hasn't been watered for a while you know droops down it just looks sad >> but when you when you ask does a plant feel pain I think that's a little bit like asking you know well does a >> does a bat see I think bats actually can seem imagine imagine they're blind right like and you say oh but can bats see and you' be like well no they can't But that doesn't mean they're not conscious. In the same way, you could say like just because something doesn't feel pain doesn't mean it's not conscious. Because those don't have to be the same thing.

[00:36:41]You can imagine something which is conscious but doesn't feel pleasure and pain. It just has awareness. You know, imagine that you just experience the color blue like just infinitely for the rest of time. You're experiencing this thing called the color blue.

[00:36:54]>> There's no pleasure. There's no pain.

[00:36:55]There's no boredom. There's no happ.

[00:36:57]There's none of that. just experience that would still seem to count as kind of consciousness but it wouldn't come along with pleasure and pain. So, you know, the reason why when people talk about consciousness extending beyond brains essentially, it sounds so crazy >> is because people are wrapped up in the idea that what consciousness is is like some of the complex things that consciousness does like seeing, like pain, like memory, like emotion, that kind of stuff. Those things aren't consciousness. Those are just some of the things that consciousness does.

[00:37:27]>> So, what is consciousness itself? In my view, it's something really when you when you strip away everything else, You're left with something really simple, just experience, really simple.

[00:37:38]>> And that is the kind of simple thing that could be foundational, a foundational property of the universe.

[00:37:44]>> I want We were going to get to this later, but we're here, so I'm going to ask now. Um, I like I like this idea a lot cuz I think up until this point, I think I'm I get it. It seems to fit into how I experience the world. Yeah, it just it just works. I get it. The thing where I find it really difficult is if it if it's a fundamental in the way that sort of matter is a fundamental, right?

[00:38:04]>> It's like I'm made up of a certain amount of matter. But defining exactly where that begins and ends is quite difficult, right? Because all the the atoms within me are held together by his forces. You when I touch this, they're also experiencing forces and those forces are different. But it's like you know on a material level what I am is actually kind of a little rudimentary because like you know at a certain point you know the atoms that make me up were part of distant stars whatever you know whatever >> with consciousness what I am seems so individual and separate from you or him or and I think that's why >> the fundamentality thing really confuses me because like the only reason I can feel my finger is because it's connected to my brain where my conscious experience appears to be happening. It seems that that's where it is.

[00:38:53]>> But you know if consciousness is a fundamental thing and everything has a degree of it.

[00:38:59]>> Mhm.

[00:39:01]>> I am singular >> quite clearly.

[00:39:04]>> Yeah.

[00:39:04]>> Through my experience.

[00:39:08]>> I get what you're saying. Do you get where I'm coming from? this view that that consciousness is is sort of foundational to the makeup of the universe >> and it's sort of in a very rudimentary form is is present kind of everywhere even in like this table. The table isn't conscious >> but it's made out of fundamental stuff that has this rudimentary conscious stuff which when put together in the right way >> can become a complex sort of yeah experience and there's this question of like well okay like fine but then how do we account for the unified individualized experience of each of us?

[00:39:37]There are three people sat in front of these cameras and we all have individual centers of consciousness.

[00:39:42]>> Mhm.

[00:39:42]>> How do we get those individual centers of consciousness? I would say a couple of things.

[00:39:46]>> Okay.

[00:39:46]>> Firstly, even if you don't think consciousness is foundational if you think that no, no, no, there's just matter at the basis and if you put it together in a complex way, you kind of get consciousness, you still kind of have this mystery like, well, if everything's just made up of matter and matter is just everywhere in the universe, why is it that you get you and you and you? Why isn't it that like matter just arranges itself such that there's one big complex brain and we all experience things and like why is why are there individual like centers of consciousness even if consciousness is not foundational? It seems weird. The second question I would ask is are you sure that you are a unified conscious agent? And thirdly are you sure that we are distinct conscious agents?

[00:40:29]>> I know and this is I I yeah it's like >> so those two get complicated a unified conscious agent. So you feel as though you are you are unified. Like your consciousness is like one thing, right?

[00:40:39]You don't feel like you've got 15 different conscious parts that are all working together and you're kind of all of them and they're all separated out in the same way that you feel like you've got two hands or two legs, you know, and you can wiggle your fingers. It feels like your consciousness is just like one one thing, you know, there's just this central you.

[00:40:58]>> Yeah.

[00:40:59]>> That exists.

[00:41:00]>> But like, you know, why why why do we think that? Why do we think that? Well, because we experience it as as unified.

[00:41:08]>> Okay. Um for for a long time, for for thousands of years, Eastern religious traditions in particular have denied the existence of the self.

[00:41:18]>> They think that the self is an illusion.

[00:41:19]You might have heard this, right? Also, if if you take a a big enough acid trip, you do psychedelic drugs, people report this thing called the ego death, which is where the sense of self >> disappears.

[00:41:31]>> But it's weird, right? Because what happens is consciousness doesn't go away, but your sense of being a unified ego, >> your identity, >> yes, seems to go away, but you're still conscious. It just starts to That's why people who take these drugs sort of say like I feel like I'm sort of one with everything. I feel like I'm like unified with >> Wait, what does that mean?

[00:41:48]>> It's impossible to say without experiencing it is is uh I've not experienced an ego death, but I've taken psychedelic drugs and and it's it's like >> it's like trying to explain blue to a person who was born blind.

[00:42:00]>> Sure.

[00:42:00]>> You can't do it, right? It it's it's something that has to be experienced.

[00:42:04]But it's interesting that like this this idea crops up in a few different places, right? The the person taking LSD, but also the the the was it a big moment for Yeah. I mean, huge. I think psychedelic experiences are often ranked by people as the most significant events in their life up there with the birth of their children because it can be a >> it can be an incredibly revoly experience.

[00:42:29]But you know they talk about this this self sort of dissipating and so it's very difficult for us to understand what that might mean but here are some ways that might get you thinking about it right the reason why you think that you are separate from me in terms of your conscious uh sense right might be because what like I have thoughts that are inaccessible to you and you have thoughts that are inaccessible to me and there's this separation okay >> you know when you're asleep and you're dreaming >> Mhm. Your dreaming self doesn't have access to the thoughts that you have while you're awake, right?

[00:43:04]>> No, not all of them.

[00:43:05]>> So, but you still think that you're the same person when you're asleep and when you're awake, even though when you're asleep, your entire sort of conscious awareness is completely like detached.

[00:43:15]It's like this big wall built up between your your dream awareness and your awaking awareness. For some people, you know, they lucid dream and they it's not true all the time, but for separation, for a lot of people, >> when you're in a dream, you don't even know that you're in a dream. You're so you don't remember like oh I was just in bed a minute ago and now here I am.

[00:43:30]You'd start freaking out. You'd be like oh well this is so weird like I just suddenly you completely forget about it like that that sort of memory is completely inaccessible. Yeah. You know you switch off something like memory >> or at least that kind of memory and you feel like there's this you you experience this separation but it's a separation that's not really there. But I I think a better way of thinking about this is to focus in on the on the unity of experience. So suppose that we're all like made out of foundational consciousness. the consciousness is really simple and foundational and we're all made up of it. The question is why is it that when I put all those little bits together, I get this one unified thing, right?

[00:44:03]>> There's some really good evidence to suggest that that's not actually what happens.

[00:44:06]>> Interesting.

[00:44:06]>> And it's to do with the fact that your brain is split into two hemispheres. You know this if you look at a brain, it's got it's got two hemispheres.

[00:44:12]>> Left brain and >> left brain and right brain, right?

[00:44:14]>> And famously, the the left brain and the right brain are responsible for different things. So the left side of your brain governs the right visual field and the right side of your body, right?

[00:44:27]>> So if you show something just to the right hand side of your visual field, if you show something just to your right hand side, it's only your left brain that sees it and vice versa. You know, the right brain controls the left sort of side of the body. Um but also the left brain is associated with speech and language. So the words that we're using right now, that's all governed by the left hand side of your brain. And does that mean if someone was blind in one eye, like they'd take more from their right brain through their left eye?

[00:44:53]>> Well, what happens is our brains, our two hemispheres communicate with each other, right? So So yes, they would they would they take in if they're blind in your in your left eye. And I think you can still get it. It's the right visual field. So you you kind of need like the right hand side of your eye. It's not quite as simple as your right eye and your left eye, but the right sort of side of your vision. But yeah, if you're if you're blind in this eye, you'll get information going into the to the left hand side of the brain, but then they'll just communicate. That's the brain does this wonderful thing of of sharing the information that it needs. And that's what gives you this unified experience.

[00:45:24]But >> there are some people >> who and by the way, the the right hemisphere of the brain is also associated with like like feeling. It's traditionally associated with like artistic, you know, like creativity, >> um that kind of stuff. And so our brains, our two hemispheres are connected by a bit of tissue called the corpus colossum. It's a little bit of tissue that connects the two and and helps them to sort of, you know, get by with each other. But some people in some circumstances have had that connective tissue severed.

[00:45:59]>> Mhm.

[00:46:00]>> It used to be a treatment for seizures.

[00:46:02]Extreme Yeah. epileptic cases. Yeah. To stop seizures. if if um in like an emergency, one of the only things that could be tried was to sever this connection.

[00:46:11]>> And so these people, they're called split brain patients because this this normal connective tissue isn't there anymore. And they've kind of got these two independent hemisphere. So then what you're saying is true. When they see something just in the right eye, it's just their left brain that sees it and vice versa. So we can run experiments on these people. And if you met somebody like this, you wouldn't know it. They they're perfectly cogent. They'll talk to you. Everything's normal in their life. But under some some circumstances, some really weird stuff happens, right?

[00:46:39]So take one of these split brain patients, sit them down in a chair and show them and make them stare at a screen with a dot. You can watch this on YouTube, by the way. They're staring at a screen with a dot and then you can flash a word on either the left side or the right side. And so you'll feed it to their left visual field or their right visual field. Right? [snorts] Remember the left hemisphere does does speech and language, right? So if I show if I flash the the word, you know, orange on the right hand side of the screen, the person goes orange. You flash the word cowboy, go cowboy, house, house. Cool.

[00:47:11]Cuz their their left hemisphere is seeing it. Flash a word on the right hand side of the on the left hand side of the screen. Flash the word, you know, um, laptop and they'll say, I didn't see it. I missed it. No, I didn't get that one. I don't know what it said.

[00:47:26]>> Okay. Then the experimentter hands them a pen.

[00:47:30]in their left hand says now just close your eyes and let your hand move and they draw a laptop. Wow. So they didn't know that they like they couldn't say they would say to you I didn't see anything. I don't know what the word is.

[00:47:43]I have no idea because that's their lang that's what they're telling you.

[00:47:46]>> But their right brain saw it and their right brain is associated with the left arm and with you know more creative creative function. So they give them a pencil and they'll start drawing it. So it's as if >> you would be winking. got these like two brains >> or a pirate.

[00:48:00]>> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. I The saddest thing in my life is that I'll never get to experience what it's like to to be a split brain patient because >> that's the saddest thing in your life.

[00:48:11]>> Yeah, I think so. Yeah. That's my worst [laughter] worst moment of the week. I think I think that you know this this these split brain patients are quite rare. But they they demonstrate something really interesting, which is that >> it seems like you've kind of got these two centers of not just two brain activities, but two centers of consciousness because the right hemisphere was aware of what it of what it saw.

[00:48:32]>> And the left hemisphere was and the left hemisphere was not. So here's where something gets extremely weird, right?

[00:48:39]Take one of these split brain patients and they're in an experiment so they know they're waiting for instructions and you show just their uh just their right brain.

[00:48:48]>> Mhm. So left visual field. You show them an instruction and the instruction says get up and walk over there. So they see the instruction, they stand up and they walk over there. And then you ask them, "Why did you just do that?

[00:49:02]Why did you just get up and walk over to the wall?" And you know what they say?

[00:49:06]It'd be weird enough if they said, "I don't know." Right? Wouldn't that be weird if like their right brain got up and walked over when you asked and they said, "I don't know. I don't remember any instruction." But they don't say, "I don't know." They make something up.

[00:49:19]>> Ah, and the weirdest thing about this is that they believe it. They say something like, "Oh, I I was I was I was just going to go and get some water. It was a bit warm here. I was just going to go and open the window if you don't mind."

[00:49:32]And they believe it. Wow. Even though we know that's not why they actually got up, right? We know that's not why they did it. They believe it.

[00:49:38]>> Well, with anything, you could do like clap your hands, >> all kinds of stuff. Yeah. And of course, because they're in experimental conditions, they're doing what they're told, right? So, they know like, oh, if it's a clap. So, you couldn't just say like, you know, go and kill someone. You know, their right brain would probably go like, "No thanks." But they wouldn't be able to tell you that.

[00:49:53]>> Yeah.

[00:49:53]>> Right. But they probably wouldn't do it.

[00:49:55]But if you know you're in an experiment, an experimentter says, can you just clap your hands? You're going to clap your hands.

[00:50:00]>> But the weird thing about this is that it seems like the right brain just is getting this person to do something and then the left brain just like comes up with some kind of rationalization.

[00:50:11]>> So this isn't a split brain patient, but the idea is >> that this happens in healthy brains too.

[00:50:16]It's just that you can't experimentally prove it. So connect those those brain hemispheres again and what's going on?

[00:50:21]Well, >> when you do things, you know, you you think, well, no, I know why I did that.

[00:50:26]I I acted on this reason and that reason and that's why I did that. But really, >> you were just sort of vibing it out. you know, your brain, your right brain governs your activity and certain kinds of activities and motions and things that you do and and you just do them.

[00:50:39]And then the left hemisphere retrospectively comes up with the reason why you did it, but you experience that as a unity. So what I mean to say is that when you say I'm one unified, you know, conscious Asian might seem that way, >> but your brain isn't acting in that way.

[00:50:54]>> Can I ask you some questions about you?

[00:50:57]>> You certainly can.

[00:50:58]>> Thank you.

[00:50:58]>> About the right side or the left side?

[00:51:00]Which which one do you want?

[00:51:01]>> Because that's a lot to take in.

[00:51:03]>> Yeah. I mean, it's it's a lot and and maybe too much. Maybe I think, you know, when you throw everything at the wall, you throw the consciousness stuff and the pans psychist stuff and all this, it's all a bit much, but I think at the very least >> this is something really interesting to reflect on. You know, your brain is split into two and there are two centers of consciousness. Have you ever heard of alien hand syndrome?

[00:51:21]>> No. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:22]>> Where like the first time we started thinking about this kind of stuff in the 1800s or maybe the 1900s, uh there was there was a report of a woman whose left hand was trying to kill her.

[00:51:31]>> It start like trying to choke her and kill her and she had to use her other arm >> to like pull it away. And in a in a few cases there have been people who have the so-called alien hand syndrome where their right hand will pour themselves a cup of coffee and their left hand will just pour it right out again. Their right hand will put their trousers on, their left hand will take it off again.

[00:51:47]Right? their hands are acting differently and the like the where does alien hand syndrome show up most in people who've had the corpus calistomy.

[00:51:56]>> Yeah.

[00:51:57]>> I have to say you really have two different brains.

[00:51:59]>> You got to look after that corpus brains. But you really do. Yeah. Watch the back of your head.

[00:52:02]>> All right. Just cuz I'm conscious of time.

[00:52:05]>> Please do. Very good.

[00:52:06]>> That was good. Well, >> you like that. Very good.

[00:52:08]>> That was Jack Ro.

[00:52:09]>> Oh, I [laughter] did write that joke.

[00:52:10]>> We did. We did the whole thing early so I forgot. Do you never like do do you get tired of debating and like thinking of that level of sort of frequency? Cuz I person like I'm I'm with YouTube. I feel like I'm sprinting and giving you all the concentration I've got to catch up with you. Do you find that hard? Cuz I do sometimes, but not isn't so I I get bored of debating because debating is it can be fun. It's like jousting. I always compare it to like a boxing match. You had a debate.

[00:52:42]>> It's fun. There's nothing wrong with a bit of theater. There's nothing wrong with a boxing match. But there are two things to note with boxing. Firstly, >> yeah, it tires you out and it's essentially a showcase.

[00:52:50]>> Secondly, it doesn't actually tell you who the better fighter is.

[00:52:53]>> It just tells you who the better boxer is.

[00:52:55]>> Also tells you who the better boxer is on the day.

[00:52:58]>> Like there's so many conditions.

[00:52:59]>> Exactly. In the same way you have a debate, you might find out who's the better debater, but it doesn't guarantee you're going to find out who's actually right.

[00:53:06]>> Yeah.

[00:53:06]>> So, it's fun, but I do get tired of that. And I couldn't do that all the time.

[00:53:09]>> Is your brain always woring? But yeah, I think I think so. Yeah, but do you struggle to turn it off? Cuz I >> not exactly because the thing is I understand what you mean which is like when you say you feel like you're sprinting because it takes a lot of takes a lot of mental energy to to think about such like and there are a lot of things to keep track of. I'm talking about the brain and the left side and the right side and then the experiment.

[00:53:28]There lots to keep track of. And so the first time I'm learning about this kind of stuff, I'll learn something like that one. Which is why I say I've got to be careful here because I'm throwing it all at you, right? But when I first hear about the split brain patients, right? I hear about that and I just shut the book, right? I just sort of turn and I'm like, whoa, okay, I need that's the most insane thing I've ever heard like possibly in my entire life and I just need to think about that for some time.

[00:53:49]And so if it were constantly new info cuz sometimes people say like, you know, gosh, yeah, you think about this all the time like this is this is so so intense, you know, does it get tiring? And it's like, well, it would do if it was constantly like input. If it was new stuff all the time, it'd be too much, you know? But because this is stuff I've been talking about for a long time, it's like talking about your your job or your hobby or whatever it is. You can just keep going forever.

[00:54:11]>> And when you're exploring these, you know, such uh topics that's so big and so not necessarily far from reach, but such huge things to get your head around, at least I I find that way certainly myself. How how do you sort of stay grounded within that like as a person yourself?

[00:54:29]>> Well, like what do you do to wind down and stuff?

[00:54:32]>> Yeah, I mean it's important, right?

[00:54:34]Because I think it's always bad when someone gets too wrapped up.

[00:54:38]>> Is that a danger? Cuz I I can find just in the things I get obsessed about, I can get full too far in them, then it's been two days and I'm like, "Fuck, I haven't, you know, had a pint with my mates. I've just been sat thinking about this one thing." That's true. I think I think having a pint with your mates is a great way to to do that. Having friends in Although, you know, let's let's not encourage people to drink alcohol cuz it's bad, but you know, [laughter] >> get lost.

[00:55:02]>> No, you're right. I I did do an episode with with David Nut who used to be the chief adviser to the government uh on drug policy and he's got a lot to say about alcohol. He ended up getting fired for saying that taking MDMMA is safer than riding a horse [laughter] >> which was he's an interesting guy but yeah but I I I don't take his advice when it comes to drinking. So I do I do drink you know a lot. I drink with friends and sometimes yeah you know we do meet up and we talk about philosophy and we talk about but like no one ever gets tired of talking exactly. You might get tired of a particular area. So, even if we meet up and we start talking about like, you know, I'm really interested in religious history in the New Testament and we're having like a very in-depth conversation about Jesus.

[00:55:40]>> Is that not full on for you? Cuz for me, that's a bit full on.

[00:55:43]>> It is. Um, but I suppose to wind down if I'm really not feeling it, then I'll play War Zone.

[00:55:52]>> Play a lot of War Zone.

[00:55:53]>> That's what [laughter] it is.

[00:55:54]>> It's just War Zone.

[00:55:55]>> Actually, it's so funny. I I play I play War Zone all the time with um with one of my one of my good friends >> and we're constantly we're constantly like like when we meet cuz because we're both interested in in like New Testament. We'll we'll sit and play war and and we'll talk about and it's so because you know when when you're on like resurgence like quads and you have like you can turn party chat on, right?

[00:56:14]So like the other guys in your party can hear you. we we'll play and we'll just be talking about like like Mark and priority in in the Gospels or something or you know he'll he'll just sort of be like oh you know I heard this really good argument today that John chapter 21 is actually a is actually a an interpolation and these guys probably think who are these losers but yeah [laughter] but we we do we do I thought it would be make for quite a good stream actually to just sit and sit 5-year-old who hasn't figured out how to turn off voice chat who's on his PS4 is like turn off >> we're just talking about death and Yeah, it's it's it's but I do I I play a lot of war zone. I I do things that can can be kind of like I play music as well. I very much enjoy doing music. So yeah, I'll do I'll do that too. But big piano.

[00:56:57]>> I really Yeah. Awesome. Right. And it helps you to to wind down and whatnot.

[00:57:00]But it's like I mean the only other thing I just go to sleep, you know? I go to sleep and then I wake up and I'm I'm roaring to go again. Like >> do you like not get knackered though talking about it all day?

[00:57:09]>> Only to the extent that like >> full on is it?

[00:57:13]>> Or is it just not full on for you? But like how you know how often do you I I don't know but like how often are you making YouTube videos and podcasts and how often are you filming?

[00:57:20]>> Once a week.

[00:57:21]>> Okay. So you film anything like once a week roughly.

[00:57:24]>> Podcast more.

[00:57:26]>> I do like semi-retired.

[00:57:28]>> Well, no. No. No. I do I do like standup comedy.

[00:57:30]>> Well, what do you Yeah. I mean what do you do like every day? If you have like a day off, what do you what do you do?

[00:57:34]>> To be fair, yesterday I did just write all day, but that was only cuz I was feeling inspired.

[00:57:39]>> Yeah. I I don't know. I guess like everybody has like off days where like I'll you'll wake up late and you'll sit in bed and you'll scroll on social media for like until like 8:00 p.m. and you'll be like that's a complete waste of time. I do that, you know, like those days. Yeah, of course. Every everybody everybody does. Yeah. Yeah. I love the Instagram reels.

[00:57:58]>> Everybody's doing that, right? Everyone does. And I I sometimes think that that's >> if you need recharging, that's just what that's just what you do, you know? You end up you end up doing that, you know?

[00:58:05]But it it it just is because also there are so many different areas of philosophy. Like I get if I get bored of talking about God, >> then I start talking about consciousness. And if I get bored of consciousness, then I start talking about I start talking about ethics. And if I get bored of and it just that just think interests come from cuz for me I'm like that but with Bruce's different albums. Like where does that >> I knew it was going to happen.

[00:58:27]>> But where where does that where does that come from? Like do you >> cuz that's just what you're into.

[00:58:32]>> I don't know. I think yeah it's really it's a difficult >> you can control that or do you think you're just into what you're into?

[00:58:38]>> I think you can you can you can to the extent that you can control anything because there may be no free will.

[00:58:43]That's a topic we didn't we didn't talk about but we got a Patreon coming. Don't worry.

[00:58:47]>> Oh okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Great. Cuz yeah free there may be no free will. You might not be in control of your actions.

[00:58:52]>> No. I like Bruce >> at all. Um yeah but did you but did you choose to like Bruce?

[00:58:56]>> My dad showed me born to run and I love it.

[00:58:58]>> But you didn't you didn't make him do that, did you? You just >> No.

[00:59:00]>> And you didn't choose to love it. No, we're not going high level here.

[00:59:03]>> I heard it and then I loved it.

[00:59:05]>> Yeah, but did you choose to love it >> or did you just love it?

[00:59:08]>> I just loved it because he chose to make it great.

[00:59:11]>> So he So So he it was his free free will but not yours.

[00:59:15]>> So you are beholden to the to the conscious whimsy of of Bruce Springsteen.

[00:59:20]>> Why are you trying to ruin Bruce V?

[00:59:21]>> I'm not. I'm that gives him way much more credit I think if he's in control of your your psychological dispositions.

[00:59:26]>> I think you can always justify the reason you like things or or almost always if you sit and think about it long enough. I think you can pick a reason when you choose it though.

[00:59:33]>> That's your left brain.

[00:59:35]>> That's your left brain just retroactively just coming up coming up with reasons why you like something like oh yeah I like I like Bruce Springsteen cuz like I really like like his sort of you know melodic you know it's like really is that really why oh yeah I really like he gets very sort of you know experimental with the with the with the Moog synth. It's like really that that's when you listen to the song you thought to yourself no you just listened to it and you liked it you know all >> and then you tried to work out afterwards why you liked it. You make a good point.

[01:00:02]>> Big picture thoughts you have about left brain and right brain and all that. Does this help in your dayto-day? Like me and Jack, we get anxious a lot. Does this help you just not be? Are you like, it's just my left brain?

[01:00:10]>> In a way, it it kind of it does.

[01:00:12]>> Or does knowing more make it harder? For a start, it means that I'm suspicious of my own reasoning. Cuz sometimes, right, when I act impulsively, I'm angry or I'm frustrated or something and I act in a particular way, I want to act in a particular way and I think to myself, no, no, no. I know I know I'm I'm sure of this. I've reasoned it out and I'm It reminds me that my own brain can play tricks on me. But it also reminds me that other people are doing the same thing. You know, when somebody says if I'm having an argument with someone or or someone's upset or something and they and they say like, you know, this is why I'm upset. This is what happened. This is why I don't like what you've done. I can just be aware of the fact that there might be more beneath the surface. It's like the the CS Lewis writes about this like when you know he writes this book about a demon who's trying to convince a Christian to become an atheist and he's trying to like here are some ways to like ruin his life and one of the ways to ruin his life is like when he comes home make him have an argument with his wife but make him think >> I'll do it >> that it's about the dishes. So, like he comes home and it's sort of like, you know, you didn't do the dishes today, honey. And it's like, oh gosh, well, I had such a long day at work and now I come back and you want me to do the dishes. Like, no, it's not it's not a big thing to ask you. I just want you to Well, yeah, but you're always and they're having this huge argument. It's not about the dishes.

[01:01:28]>> It's not about the dishes. It's about something much more foundational and much more like important that that's sort of got the scab wound that gets opened with the dishes thing and it's like an excuse that someone uses. So, you think you're arguing about one thing, but really there's something more going on. So, if you're talking to a friend and he's like, "Ah, it just really annoys me that you, you know, you're always late to things or whatever." And you can remember that a lot of the time, even if they genuinely think that's the only reason they're upset, there's there's like more going on and you might need to address the foundation of that relationship.

[01:01:57]>> But, you know, dayto-day, um, [laughter] I don't know, maybe take, isn't it?

[01:02:01]Maybe when my, you know, when when my my my friend decides to [gasps] push prison roof and says that he did it because, you know, he thought it would get us circle and I'm like, "Yeah, okay."

[01:02:12]Right. You might think that's why you did it, but you just thought it'd be fun to go up the zip wire. You know, >> some War Zone references. [laughter] >> Do we play War? I think I play War Zone one time.

[01:02:19]>> I'm more of a PUBG. You play PUBG?

[01:02:21]>> No.

[01:02:21]>> Do you want to play?

[01:02:23]>> I just I just I just never have.

[01:02:25]>> I'll play I'll teach you PUBG. Way more grounded than War Zone, do you think?

[01:02:28]>> Oh, yeah. It's slower pace. It's better.

[01:02:30]It's It's [ __ ] Br. It's you really have to get immersed in the fire. You know, you want your great feel.

[01:02:36]>> You can hot You can hot drop. You can hot drop if you want, mate. If you want to hot drop, mate, you can. But if you want, we can drop have a slow. I I genuinely would love to play PUBG with you.

[01:02:44]>> I think that'd be fun. We should do a stream or something. That would be that'd be great. You can teach me how to do it.

[01:02:47]>> Excellent.

[01:02:48]>> Or we can just do it in private. You know, it's not all for the content.

[01:02:50]That's the other thing though, by the way. Don't do it all for the content.

[01:02:53]Like, you know, that thinking in private.

[01:02:56]>> Yeah. It can be it can be exhausting to like to to Yeah. to constant like I found there's there's a period in my life and it still exists now to some degree but I try to turn it down where like if I'm reading an interesting book the thought is oh this is interesting maybe I can get this guy on my show oh this is interesting I I can I can use this for or I could put this into my writing or I can make you know and I've I've really been trying to stop doing that and how much do you think you're in control of that cuz something I've really been exploring and reading lots about is sort of you know as I've been trying to pursue something a bit more artistic with like standup or artistic less immediately commercial. Um, you know, I've been exploring sort of the effects social media has had on me since I've been, you know, like 14 really consistently on it. And I found that a lot of those effects now, although I'm like sort of cognitively cognitively or like aware of, >> they're kind of out of my control and it's kind of like battling against that.

[01:03:49]How much do you think you're in your sort of own control of urine?

[01:03:52]>> I don't think we're in control of anything that happens in our in our heads. I I think that >> like events just occur. I don't think that you could get to control essentially anything you do. This is it like philosophers have debated >> other people can control it.

[01:04:08]>> Not ex like yes, but they're not controlling it like themselves. Like there are external influences like you could make me do something, but I don't think you chose to make me do it, right?

[01:04:17]And like I think that there's just this series of of causes that that no one is ultimately in control of. Every action has its equal opposite reaction.

[01:04:25]Hamilton, >> that is [laughter] Well, yeah. Yeah, it's a Well, you know, was it Right.

[01:04:31]Should we go to the Patreon? We should.

[01:04:33]I think it was.

[01:04:33]>> Oh, yeah. The worm.

[01:04:34]>> We've got one big last question for you.

[01:04:36]We ask every single guest.

[01:04:38]>> How's the worm doing, Alex Okconor?

[01:04:40]Could you check on our worm for us?

[01:04:42]>> See how he's doing. He might be hard to find. He often is.

[01:04:45]>> Uh, but if you could maybe you could uh Where is he?

[01:04:48]>> Speak on the ethics of keeping him.

[01:04:50]>> I want to see if he looks conscious.

[01:04:52]Where is [laughter] >> There's like an actual worm in here.

[01:04:55]>> Yeah, there he is. You can just about make him out there.

[01:04:58]>> Oh, he's tiny.

[01:04:59]>> He's very small.

[01:05:00]>> Oh, how [clears throat] sweet. Um, >> there's usually several to be fair, but I say, Alex, by the way, this is this is awesome. [laughter] >> This is [ __ ] awesome.

[01:05:07]>> I I hope so, cuz you're >> sick, man. Let's play PUBG.

[01:05:10]>> It's very I'd like that. I I It's very difficult to know. Um, >> this is fascinating.

[01:05:15]>> Like how cuz this a lot of this stuff goes deep as well. Like some of this consciousness stuff, it gets deep and it also gets complicated and weird. It's always difficult to know what >> sort of level to go to in a conversation with someone for the first time. Um I would just say that if anyone's listening to this and it's like >> okay that brain stuff was really interesting but you use the word pansychism now three times like what what's that and consciousness like what's going like you can just ignore that but if you think it's interesting if you think it's it's cool there's lots of there's lots of like material out there to to chase these thoughts but >> I think it's it's just worth thinking about and the the split brain stuff is interesting. The the main thing I'd want to get across to people is that consciousness is a mystery. You know, have you ever heard of Mary's room? The thought experiment? No.

[01:05:55]>> So like imagine Mary like lives in a room. I'm still holding [laughter] Mary. He's moving. Um Mary is is sat.

[01:06:03]>> Is he choosing?

[01:06:04]>> I don't think so. At least no more than than you or I. Um but it is interesting to think about what's the what's the brain activity >> of this little worm. What do you think it's like to be a worm? You know, >> muddy.

[01:06:15]>> Well, maybe. But the thing is is it like Thomas Nagel wrote a famous essay in the 1970s called what is it like to be a bat >> and it's a really wonderful it's one of my favorite essays. It's quite short as well >> and I can take this back.

[01:06:26]>> The point sure yeah you can take has he got a name?

[01:06:28]>> Uh no actually we the the reason being is occasionally they die or we have to replace them.

[01:06:33]>> You should call him Thomas Nagel after the guy that >> it could be Thomas Nagel for >> Thomas Nagel the worm until Thomas Nagel asks what's it like to be about and he writes this essay which is a wonderful essay quite short where he's trying to get to the grips of what what consciousness is. And he's like, you know, if you're thinking about what it's like to be a bat, he doesn't mean, yeah, you could imagine hanging upside down and flying around, but that's not what it's like to be a bat. That's what it's like for you to act like a bat. What is it like to experience the world as a bat?

[01:06:59]>> I just couldn't tell you on that's that's the point. You you couldn't, right? And and it seems like and he in this essay argues that consciousness is something which is irreducible to scientific explanation. You cannot capture what it is like to be a thing in in scientific explanation. And the way to explain that perhaps in closing because I'm also conscious [laughter] of time um is to to think about Mary in in her room and she she's born and she grows up in this room which is black and white. There's no color in this room whatsoever, you know.

[01:07:27]>> And she gets given >> every single bit of information that could possibly ever be written down about the color blue. I don't mean all the information we have right now. I mean everything you could ever have.

[01:07:38]Right? So all the science she understands the science of the eye. She understands electromagnetic radiation.

[01:07:44]She understands the the brain chemistry.

[01:07:46]She understands which neurons are firing and when. She understands all of that.

[01:07:49]Everything that you could put onto a bit of paper and write down diagrams, all that kind of stuff about blue. She knows it. Then she opens the door, she walks outside, she looks up, and she sees blue in the sky. And the question is, has she learned something new? What do you think? Has she learned something new >> by experiencing blue? Oh, you I would assume I would assume so. The experience I don't think experience can be explained without reference to other experience. And I think when you take an experience so fundamental like seeing a color, >> I just don't think you can you can explain that.

[01:08:24]>> And most people know that. Most people know that it's it's impossible to explain what blue is to a blind person and that Mary would learn something new by stepping outside. And they'll happily say, "Yeah, totally." But but they often times don't recognize how revolutionary or how how sort of important a thought that is. Because what does that mean? It means that the conscious experience part of blessess, the bless of blue or the pain of pain or the sound of a drum or whatever, the experiential part is something which in principle we cannot explain in words. We cannot explain with a scientific diagram or reference to waves and eyes and brain chemistry. Like it does not matter what you write down in what way or what science you discover. There is something about the experience of consciousness that cannot be reduced to that. And that means that it's a question that literally sits outside of the possibility of scientific explanation. It's something which science cannot explain.

[01:09:19]>> And with that >> I was >> Oh, you go on. I thought you were I thought >> I was thinking quite deeply when you began asking that question about what it would be like to get a point with you and if it's too early on a Saturday to go on a pint after this.

[01:09:34]>> It's 5:00 somewhere as they say.

[01:09:35]>> Yeah. But then we made eye contact and then you were asking me and then that that is the honesty of why I sent over to Jack.

[01:09:40]>> You can talk about what it's like to drink a to drink a pint.

[01:09:43]>> But we'll never >> but we'll never be able to give someone the experience who hasn't had it. Guys, [laughter] >> we have a Patreon. It's $7. You can join us over there. I have plenty of questions left for Alex. Uh we haven't even touched on theology really, which is which is a big thing for you.

[01:09:56]Obviously, you speak about it a lot. I think a lot of the most popular moments are speaking on religion. So, I want to dig into that a little bit and we have plenty more. So come and join us over on the Patreon.