AI Economy: Blueprint for a Post-Labor Society & Human Values

[00:00:00]What we want to plan on is universal programs that create a soft landing for people who are displaced and that the baseline of that is free healthcare and free education because if we're going to get any kind of retraining, they need education.

[00:00:27]What if I told you that every classical economist from Adam Smith onward predicted we'd eventually reach a world of abundance, one without scarcity or the need for human labor. They also said capitalism itself would become obsolete.

[00:00:42]With AI and automation pushing us toward that very future, are we finally approaching this turning point? Welcome to Beyond the Bite. I'm your host, Mohaf, and today's episode is all about the messy middle. The transitional period we seem to find our society in right now with billionaires talking about universal basic income, the end of human labor, and the future of an AIdriven society that creates an era of abundance and the end of scarcity. It feels like we're moving from capitalism to something else. To help unpack this, I'm delighted to welcome today's guest, Adam Browse, who is going to help us explore a provocative idea for our post labor economy, libertarian socialism.

[00:01:27]Could this be the key to a stable post labor society? Let's find out. Well, Adam, uh, welcome to Beyond the Bite.

[00:01:35]>> Thanks for having me. This is great, Mo.

[00:01:37]>> Uh, it's a pleasure. Adam Adam is an educator, entrepreneur, author, provocative thinker, and AI ethicist. Uh he's the founder of uh Elton University and former director of Make School, which is a YCbacked combinator school.

[00:01:50]He's also the chair of Applied CS at Dominican University of California, and author of a bunch of thoughtprovoking books, including The Caging of the American Mind: How We Broke Higher Education and How to Fix It. I'm very interested in reading that by the way as well as the future of good uh how to tell good from evil in an age of distraction polarization and crisis.

[00:02:09]Adam, you are quite an accomplished uh man. Thank you again for joining us.

[00:02:14]>> I mean I'm excited to be here. It's important to talk about the topics that you talk about on this podcast. So I'm excited to chat.

[00:02:21]>> Fantastic. Well, Adam, let's cut straight to the most provocative idea.

[00:02:25]You argue that libertarian socialism is the next logical step in a post- labor economy driven by AI.

[00:02:33]>> Can you explain that?

[00:02:34]>> That's right.

[00:02:34]>> Yeah. So, um, basically your your audience is probably aware that AI is coming and it's coming in a big way. Uh, the adoption rates of the the the the abilities of the foundational models are just unbounded. The adoption rates by corporations, government, and even private individuals is just really fast.

[00:02:54]And it's going to replace a lot of jobs and not just uh low like low paid skil low skill work. It's going to replace a lot of doctors and lawyers and yeah white collar jobs you know office workers and marketers and everything right. Yeah.

[00:03:08]>> And so um that's going to be basically we are like uh like panced around our ankles like penguin stumbling into this future. You know we're not prepared uh almost at all for what's about to hit us like a hurricane. Yeah. Um I I believe and a lot of other very smart people believe um I'm sort of standing on the shoulders of giants here. Lots of really smart people believe this. Yeah. And um there's talk about well what will an economy that's a post- labor economy look like?

[00:03:38]>> Yeah.

[00:03:38]>> And it what I have not heard in the discussion that I want to propose today is >> uh that the way to have a post labor economy is for the government to tax the output of AI. Yeah. And then give money and and and some essential services but also money. Yeah. To people. And then that is going to be the future of the economy. It won't it won't be as it's been since the Egyptians based on working and then being paid for your work and then using that money from your work to go buy things. You'll just receive money as a dividend. Yeah.

[00:04:16]>> And and people go directly to uh universal basic income with this. But I'll I'll actually try to argue that we should the universal basic income would be the last thing the la not the last because it's the worst but the last chronological thing that you would do and the first chronological things you would do is just what is commonly called democratic socialism. So you would provide universal health care. You'd provide universal education for free up to 25 years old. You know 25 years old or 30 years old. You'd provide free you know child care, free parental leave.

[00:04:48]you'd make it so that there was four day work weeks or three-day work weeks. Like all these things that people today call like socialism is really just the on-ramp to a post- labor uh AI based economy. And so we should stop as as libertarians or as people who are pro- free markets and pro we we actually need to stop being against these socialist policies. Yeah. and we need to start to embrace them if we're going to avoid um a major major cataclysmic uh crisis that could turn into all kinds of bad bad things that we don't intend, you know, whether it's bloody revolution or >> who knows terrible things could happen that we don't really want to we don't want to try to see. We don't want to attempt fate.

[00:05:30]>> Now, that that is a >> so yeah that's that's kind of the argument. Yeah, >> that is a truly bold idea and I think it's it's bold because we know the writing on is on the wall as you mentioned AI. You said AI is coming. I believe AI it's already here. I mean the transformation is happening as we speak.

[00:05:44]It's just a matter of adoption. Um >> but it feels like society is going in the opposite direction or at least here in the United States. I you know I think >> nobody wants to touch the word so socialism with a 10-ft pole. We we hear about you know Bernie Sanders is always you know coming out there and saying we need to tax the wealthy and but we are not getting any closer to that. Um so you know um so this is this is why it's an interesting and bold idea. What would an a like a modern AIdriven socialism even look like? Right. So besides this idea of of providing free healthcare, free education, all of that, you know, uh talk to me about how the the AIdriven revolution is going to propel that forward.

[00:06:28]>> Yeah. Well, I think a key thing is for people to understand that socialism most people don't understand what socialism is. Mo most people think that socialism is communism which is where there's centrally planned economic devel economic growth and economic operations.

[00:06:43]But actually that that's not what socialism is. So socialism is 100% in favor of and supports free commerce >> and private property and starting businesses all of that. So, and that's something I think people should just at the beginning just be very clear.

[00:07:01]Commerce, so owning private property and buying and selling things and working for people and being employed and blah blah blah, that is not capitalism or socialism. Both capitalism and socialism contain commerce.

[00:07:15]>> So, that's something to be clear of at first. Yeah.

[00:07:18]>> What socialism means is that you you direct So, capital I'll say what capitalism means is that you direct capital. You optimize the system of commerce and private property. You optimize it to build capital. And capital just means fixed machines and uh uh buildings, you know, anything that's a fixed thing that once you build it operates then for a period of time and increases income. That's all that is. So if you build a refrigerator, that's capital. If you build a truck, that's capital. If you build a refrigerator factory, that's like really capital because it's like >> capital that builds capital, right? Or a truck factory. Yeah.

[00:07:59]>> Or Right. So AI is just capital. AI is a an AI is an is a machine that can build a truck factory, right? It's like the ultimate capital because it can just do you build it once and it creates income >> from then on. Yeah.

[00:08:14]>> So So capitalism just means take human action. commerce, you know, people trying to do things, helping each other, trading, everything that humans do, you bend it towards optimizing to building capital. Socialism just means you take that same system of commerce and trade and people working and trying things, inventing things, and you bend it towards improving human welfare and the welfare of animals, too. You know, the welfare of sensient beings.

[00:08:41]>> That's all that means. So, you basically say, "We don't care if we really create that much more capital. We don't need to optimize for capital anymore. Yeah, we have a lot of capital. We still want to increase capital in so far as it helps the welfare of sensient beings, but you don't but you don't optimize for all things capital, right? You don't like throw the bodies of the workers into the, you know, the machine and build the machine bigger, you know? You say the machine's pretty good. Let's let's optimize for human welfare. So, so >> that's what the socialism is. And that's why I call it libertarian socialism because you want it to be a form of commerce and a form of society that's maximizing human welfare which means maximizing human freedom. So it's a free system of socialism.

[00:09:24]>> Yeah.

[00:09:24]>> Um that might that might really sound strange to people because they think of socialism as like authoritarianism or locking things down but actually you can have a sort of libertarian socialism where it actually makes you far more free.

[00:09:38]>> Yeah. An example would be universal health care. So if you today have no healthare, then maybe you can't leave your job.

[00:09:45]>> Yeah.

[00:09:46]>> Which means your freedom is limited.

[00:09:48]That's correct. Right.

[00:09:48]>> The golden hangers.

[00:09:49]>> But if you had Right. But if you just But if there was a tax that was on people like 4% income tax and like a 4% additional income tax, no one would even notice that, right? Like it would just be, you know, it would just be another tax. People would just say, "I'd pay a little more in taxes." But then everyone would have have healthare.

[00:10:08]>> Yeah.

[00:10:09]>> That would mean people could leave their jobs or change jobs or uh you know whatever or or employers could say we don't have to think about >> paying all the premiums for all these freaking workers like we can just do our work. We don't have to be like healthcare providers. So a universal health care system like like a like a Medicare for all system or or like they have in Canada or or any number of places would be actually increase people's freedom. Yeah.

[00:10:35]>> This is why it's like a libertarian socialism. What you don't want is a form of socialism that reduces people's freedom. Yeah.

[00:10:43]>> So, for example, you don't want to say, for example, um like the the higher educational system right now, >> no one can start a new college or university. That's part of my research, what my book is about. Yeah.

[00:10:56]>> No one can start a high a new college or university. That but it's also highly socialized. It's all paid for by the government. these public schools and PEL grants and everything. So, so in a way we've built a sort of restrictive or authoritarian socialism around healthcare.

[00:11:11]>> Yeah.

[00:11:12]>> But we could undo that by liberalizing it, allowing people to start new colleges and universities, but we could preserve Pell grants. We could preserve the payment of it because the payment of it, it doesn't limit people's freedom.

[00:11:23]It actually enhances people's freedom.

[00:11:25]They can go to different schools. They can go to school they want. Yeah. So, I'm proposing this idea of this libertarian socialism where we're taxing AI, which is like corporate income, corporate profits and wealth taxes, and we're we're taking that money and we're maximizing human freedom and welfare through very careful social programs that that only enhance freedom and don't and don't limit people's freedoms.

[00:11:50]>> Well, that we so we dove right into this, Adam, and I think, you know, I wanna I want to kind of understand this.

[00:11:56]I wanted, you know, to fully understand this provocative prop proposal. I kind of want to rewind. I want our audience to catch up with us because we're we're talking about, you know, you know, free market economics and and capitalism. You know, the the idea capitalism has been around for what 300 years, you know, and it really took off with the industrial revolution. But, uh, you know, I'm not sure if a lot of people know that before capitalism, we had, you know, we had we had feudalism, right? Right. And we had before that we hadismalism and and capitalism just really you know was the the most recent uh you know economic model that uh really helped us utilize gains. And I believe uh socialism came as a as a >> kind of as um uh a a yin for y you know yin and yang for the for the capitalism even though u I think socialism is an idea that's as old as as Plato you know from the republic.

[00:12:49]>> Sure. Sure. just redistributing wealth was was was very old.

[00:12:53]>> Right. Right. But I want to I want to rewind a little. You you've highlighted actually um and in in your research I've seen that you've highlighted that classical economist anticipated this post scarcity and post labor world.

[00:13:06]>> Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:13:07]>> So can you unpack that economist? Yeah.

[00:13:10]Yeah. every economist Mark you know Ricardo say you know uh Adam Smith uh Marx obviously but also uh you know John Maynard Kanes he wrote a fantastic uh paper John Mayor Kane's the greatest economist in the 20 20th century arguably um uh >> wrote a book wrote a wrote a little essay that I recommend everyone read if you want it's just a two-page essay and it's called the economic reality of our grandchildren's children which is us, right? Cuz he was like a like a like a he was born, you know, he was basically like my grandparents father's age.

[00:13:49]>> Mhm.

[00:13:49]>> So our grandchildren's children would be like me, like us, maybe our children or maybe our children like our generation and our children basically. He was writing this paper and what he says is this was in 1930 1940. He wrote this paper and he just said, "Yeah, I mean if if everything just continues, like if the growth rates and productivity rates just continue, >> then at our current wealth distribution, people who have a median income will make $350,000 a year."

[00:14:20]>> Wow. He called it.

[00:14:21]>> That's what he predicts. But the thing is is the median income is only like $60,000 right now. Yeah. And that's because the wealthy have essentially transferred all that wealth to themselves.

[00:14:33]>> Yeah.

[00:14:34]>> And and essentially robbed it from the the workers. Where whereas in 1940, 1950, the wealth distribution was way more equitable.

[00:14:41]>> Yes.

[00:14:42]>> And so and so the median income was whatever it was, you know, it's probably $10,000 or whatever. But he just tracked up and said, "Well, if we just follow the trend lines >> in in 75 years or 100 years, >> the median income median income that's like a plumber." Yeah.

[00:14:57]>> Would be making $350,000 a year. And and that's actually true. If you look at our current wealth distribution and income distribution, if you adjusted it for the 1940s, it would be that the median income would be >> if if humans weren't greedy, >> right? Well, I don't know if humans are greedy, but you know, if if if they hadn't if the wealthy hadn't been able to pull off Yeah. pretty much the greatest heist in history which was to like convince everybody that they should like pay no taxes and you know right uh you know yeah trickle >> down when I say the wealthy I don't yeah and when I say the wealthy I do not mean anyone who works for their money >> so like a high-powered lawyer highowered doctor I'm not call they even if they capitalist the capitalist >> I'm talking about people who sit back right they sit back they have they own they own 25 houses and $200 million of stock and bonds and that makes them all their money. Yeah, >> that's what I'm talking about. Never talking about work. Anyone who works is not an owner. Even if they're very wealthy, maybe they have some cap, they have some, you know, >> they have some equity stocks and things, two houses, five houses. Okay, that's still peanuts compared to what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the true, you know, world world, uh, you know, world runners.

[00:16:12]>> Yeah. But you believe that now is the time. And I think you believe now is the time because AI has accelerated that arrival. I mean, we're we're looking at this uh future where AI and robotics embodied AI. We're going to get a lot of these tasks that used to require human labor and human minds to be offloaded to machines to the point that even the tech billionaires are talking about how uh you know, well, do humans really need to labor? And we've actually seen uh over time that humans have had to labor less and less. In other words, we we've actually been able to get back more of our time.

[00:16:49]>> And so this is this trend is obviously continuing perhaps to a point where we don't have to work at all.

[00:16:55]>> So you're saying that now because we're on the cusp of this >> because we're on the cusp of AI really, we're actually at this point now where where we can just sit back and enjoy the fruits of of of the labor that our technology can bring to us.

[00:17:09]>> That this is the time when when we need to start adopting this.

[00:17:13]>> Yeah. Yeah. And this is exactly what classical economists predicted. So, so total free market economists, Adam Smith, Ricardo say these guys were like they're the basis of free market economics. They say >> if we follow the principles of free market economics and capitalism, if we build continually improve capital, more and more factories, more and more automated factories, right? Then eventually we'll get to the point where there's everything is automated. They they predicted this. They they didn't know what you know transformers are.

[00:17:43]They don't know what agentic AI is. They didn't know. But they knew that every year things would get more automated.

[00:17:49]And they and that meant if you just drew the line eventually everything would be automated or 95% of things would be automated, right? Yeah.

[00:17:56]>> And so they said without a doubt we will achie we will basically achieve some sort of you know some sort of socialistic paradise where no one has to work.

[00:18:07]>> Yeah. Um, and that and that that's irrefutable that that's what these economists all said. In a way, Markx, who I mean, I like to dog on Marx, but at the same time, it's important. It's like impossible not to talk about him because he's emblematic of some of these ideas, but actually Markx was like he didn't really have any original ideas.

[00:18:27]>> And people don't really realize this.

[00:18:29]Like Markx just took what the other economists were saying and he put a populist gloss on it. that that's all Markx did. He he he didn't you know labor theory of value that's exactly what Adam Smith said the theory of value was. You know uh Adam Smith says that the you know the owner takes 95% of the value of a mark of a of a productive process and 5% goes to labor. Adam Smith said that Markx just Markx just took that and turned it into this like oh my god you know this kind of you know rhetorical sort of oh my god >> and it was anti- capitalist. I mean it was very anti-owners.

[00:19:06]>> Right. Right. So that's one problem.

[00:19:08]>> He saw that as an injustice. He saw that as an injustice. Adam Smith didn't really see it as injustice. Adam Smith just said, "Look, I've made this discovery. This look at this interesting thing. 95% of the value goes to the the the capitalists. That's weird." You know, but Markx was like, "That's a horrible injustice." And so he turned it in. But he didn't add a single new idea really. That was pretty he just was.

[00:19:28]>> So So you can talk about Markx, but really you don't have to talk about Markx. you can just talk about free market economists predicting the same thing which is which is that we would end up not having to work at all.

[00:19:39]>> So we started this conversation referring to the current economic situation as being kind of like the messy middle and I I say that because we are very much in a very much a capitalist society. Uh we see that going um actually continuing to be even more capitalist. I mean right now we're looking at you know oh the oneperson billion dollar company that's run by AI agents right? So, we're still thinking with this capitalist mindset.

[00:20:03]>> Um, and and not only that, but you know, our policies don't seem to reflect socialism whatsoever.

[00:20:11]>> We're seeing people uh lose jobs and you know, thousands of jobs are going away.

[00:20:15]The government sector, which used to be the safest place to be, is no longer the safest place to be as people who have government jobs are also losing their jobs. And at the same time, we're seeing this uh you know, a lot of things happen. inflation. People are having a hard time being able to afford the the, you know, the current economic conditions and everybody's thinking, well, we got to, you know, uh, we got to survive. But there are people in this industry, in this economy, excuse me, that are doing quite well. So, the forces are kind of not aligned here, right? We we do see a kind of a crazy misalignment. So, this is the kind of the I would say that if there is a transition and or a transition that needs to happen as you're saying, >> it's going to be quite awkward at this point. like in in other words, we're it's not a it doesn't look like an easy transition.

[00:21:01]>> So, you know, how will AI help us >> realize that this transition needs to happen sooner rather than later?

[00:21:08]>> Well, I mean, I think there's there's some there's like, you know, it's like when the guy says to you, we could do this the easy way or the hard way.

[00:21:18]like the the easy way I think is um you know either the elites realize that actually you know universal health care and free education and like just baseline you know support for people to eliminate poverty and you know simplify the job market you know three-day work week which will add a bunch of jobs because if you do a three-day work week you know someone has to do that work still so you have to hire more people you know these kind of things the wealthy see these as very expensive But that's because they're thinking with a backwards view towards a scarcity mindset.

[00:21:51]>> The reality is that these are very very cheap compared to the alternative.

[00:21:56]>> So the alternative is I think cataclysmic revolution. Like I think we're going to get to the point where you know you know Luigi Manion is like the the least of our problems. You know what I mean? Like I think there'll be a lot of people who get disenfranchised.

[00:22:13]You know, think 2008 crisis on absolute steroids.

[00:22:17]>> People will be completely disenfranchised and these people will not be like poor uneducated people.

[00:22:23]These will be like educated people who have some money because they were, you know, a doctor, they were an accountant, you know, and now they're they're out of a job and so are 80% of accountants >> and they are rad they'll be radicalized by that experience >> if they have nothing to go back on and they have no life to. You don't think they'll be able to retool fast enough and and leverage AI and be able to pick up their really okay >> the evidence for so this happened already with the internet. So the internet came and you know Clinton said let's normalize trade with China let's push all our manufacturing to China >> and then and the whole story was we'll retrain those workers in the rust belt.

[00:23:06]>> Never happened and it just doesn't happen. It's really really really I'm an educator. I know this. It's extremely hard to retrain people. It basically doesn't happen. It's on s it's such a small number. You know, it's 15 20% of people you can retrain. Most people you just cannot retrain. They just become disenchanted workers and they just they just sort of, you know, they work around, they putter around their houses and and their communities collapse and become the rust belt. They become poor, >> you know, opioidfueled, you know, places of despair, you know.

[00:23:39]Um and so the AI re and the AI revolution seems to be happening about three to four times faster than the cloud like internet revolution happened.

[00:23:48]Yeah.

[00:23:49]>> So that means it's going to happen even faster, >> right?

[00:23:52]>> Uh you know so so no I don't think we want to plan on that. What we want to plan on is universal programs that create a soft landing >> for people who are displaced and that the baseline of that is free health care and free education because if we're going to get any kind of retraining they need education. Yeah.

[00:24:15]Right. So it should be just free. People should just be able to walk in and just start getting education. They shouldn't have any kind of barrier. Right.

[00:24:22]>> And the same thing with healthare. if they lose their health care, just the coorbidities that come with a lack of access to health care, the social ills and coorbidities with that are just unthinkable. I mean, it's just awful.

[00:24:34]Yeah. Um, what will happen to people?

[00:24:36]So, I think those are the two most simple ones. And then I think you could do a lot of other things, too. Like I said, you adopt the three-day work week.

[00:24:42]Well, that'll add about 30% more jobs because people will still need to do those other two days of work. So, you have to hire more people. Yeah. That's good. You know, I mean, it's make work, but it's good. That's like what we want.

[00:24:52]We want some make work to to create a bit of a cushion.

[00:24:55]>> Yeah. Well, you're the the the statistics absolutely support your your what you're saying because you know the World Economic Forum I' I've spewed off the statistics before, but the World Economic Forum has mentioned that, you know, in the most recent jobs report uh of 2025, they said that uh 39% of current skills are going to be outdated.

[00:25:13]>> You know, 59 59% of the global workforce will need to be reskilled for sure. Uh so these these numbers are massive and you're you're right it is and it I look at this and I realize there is a massive problem right now of of reskilling this concept of AI literacy I don't think people understand they this is this is something that's really really important because as you mentioned >> you know it's an adapt or die situation and um and uh the machines are are are moving very fast our you know our reliance on AI is very fast >> and you mentioned that healthcare and education are going to be the most basic requirements that we need to house housing also I mean if people lose their houses even if they have healthare and education doesn't matter they have to have housing too so yeah housing healthare education need to essentially be 100% assured to everyone >> and we should be able to >> easiest way to do that is with taxes and and and not like again not like the zar of housing gets to decide where you know what I mean you don't want to create an authoritarian centrally planned form of socialism you want to you want to create a market a libertarian market form of socialism which means this is the difference between in health in I you know this is the difference between um the British system of universal healthcare is called the NHS the national health system and that's an actual centrally planned the government runs all the hospitals like they run all the clinics and hospitals if you're a doctor you're an employee of the government every you know that's like that's not what we want and it's not a good system it doesn't have great outcomes it's it's you know it's it's locked up in all kinds of it can't innovate, it can't improve very fast.

[00:26:49]Right. What you want is like the Dutch system or the German system where or the Canadian system where the government is just a health insurance company.

[00:26:59]>> Yeah.

[00:26:59]>> But all the actual doctors and nurses and hospitals, those are all private institutions. They're all innovating, competing with each other, trying to provide better health care. But the payer behind it is is is the government.

[00:27:11]>> Yeah.

[00:27:11]>> So that's a form where again where you're trying to create a libertarian form of socialism, not an authoritarian.

[00:27:16]So, if you're going to try to do that with housing in the United States, the first thing you do is you get rid of all the nimi policies that are preventing new housing from being built. That's the first thing because that's just liberating the free market to actually do what it's good at, build more housing.

[00:27:30]>> And then you begin to say, "Hey, we're going to like right now the government already does a lot of protections for commercial building. So if you go and say I'm going to go build this big commercial tower, the government will say okay if this commercial tower like fails, we'll backs stop your loans. And that's already the case for commercial buildings. They should just add that for residential buildings. They should just add so that the government is backstopping loans to build new commercial new housing.

[00:27:57]>> Yeah.

[00:27:57]>> So these are things where now private developers are going to build housing, sell it to private citizens, right? It's all the market. But actually there's like a socialistic backs stop that's stimulating the whole thing to improve human welfare. So, so you want this very light, very creative, very light hand supporting in just the right places to then maximize, you know, people being comfortable at their house and safe and you know >> Yeah. And the technology solutions are out there. I mean, as you mentioned, you're talking about how these need to be provided. I'm looking at right now at AI uh education.

[00:28:33]education AI is set to revolutionize education. Make it so that everybody can have personalized learning. You know, knowledge is now available to any child who is able to, you know, access an AI chatbot interface responsibly. U you know, we're talking about how um AI is going to revolutionize healthcare and allow uh you know, us to be able to have a more personalized healthcare experience. And even with housing, we're talking about the advent of 3D printing housing uh and make how much that'll, you know, how easier that'll be in terms of creating new housing. So all of that's there, but these uh technological advancements are being looked at as uh as from an industrialist perspective, from a capitalist perspective of oh well if I if I have a company that can 3D print houses, if I have a company that that does uh you know and education with AI or health, you know, healthcare AI, I'm going to want to charge money for it. All right? And so and and so there >> then they should charge money for it.

[00:29:32]They should charge money for it.

[00:29:33]>> So then how do we subsidize it? because you're talking about the government. The government, the government's one thing, but you're talking about these, you know, uh, tech billionaires that are going to be the the ones that are going to benefit from a lot of these technologies.

[00:29:46]>> How do we get the shift to happen, right? U, >> I mean, it's it's it's not that it's not that complicated. Um, this isn't talked about much because the wealthy don't want it to be talked about, but it but it's actually pretty well established how you do this, you know. Um there's various forms of taxation of wealth that are extremely uh you know I keep talking about kind of a light hand like a you don't want government to come in and smash and authoritarian and take control of everything. You just it's like you're applying a clutch to a giant spinning wheel, right? You want to apply the clutch. If you apply the clutch so hard that you stop the wheel, >> you kind of kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. So you want to apply this clutch to this wheel and bleed off some of the excess benefits to create >> a baseline level of human welfare for everyone. This doesn't mean people can't be absurdly wealthy. This doesn't mean people can't be billionaires. Oh, they shouldn't be billionaires. Like that's an acade I mean that's just like a moralizing question to say should there be billionaires. Well I if I mean the real the reality is should we support should we make sure every should I don't care if they're billionaires. I only care that there's no one starving in the streets, right? Like, you know what I mean? Like, but not everybody thinks that way. Stop people from being billionaires.

[00:31:02]>> Yeah. The problem is there's this aspect from everybody.

[00:31:05]>> Yeah. But, but I mean, don't you I mean, most the fundamental aspect of capitalism is, hey, that's not my problem. You should be able to go and using the sweat from your brow be able to make the money that I was able to make and you know, you're I'm given the same opportunities and blah blah blah.

[00:31:18]And, you know, I don't think that's true, by the way. Like I I think that sometimes people take for granted the opportunities that they were given >> u and and but they don't but that thinking isn't prevalent >> is what I'm saying.

[00:31:32]>> Well, I wouldn't so this is something maybe I can do a little mind shift on on this conversation. So what you're describing isn't really capitalism that that mindset that's like, you know, sort of rugged individualism, you know, which is part of the American culture and it's a it's a it's I think it's a pretty admirable part of it.

[00:31:52]>> But, you know, capitalism actually takes a huge amount of government subsidies, >> huge amounts of just handouts from the government to people. Yeah.

[00:32:02]>> Uh in order to run capitalism. So capitalism meaning remember bending towards optimizing the production of capital which which commerce just on its own if you just did a free market with no actual investments from the government no you know preferential stuff it would actually it wouldn't produce as much capital as if you really emphasized capital right you really tried to produce as much capital as possible for example >> capital gains taxes are lower than income taxes >> in a free market, you would just tax everything the same because you don't care about capital. The the idea that the capital gains tax is lower is to incentivize >> making more capital investment, right?

[00:32:44]So that itself is a capitalist thing.

[00:32:46]Um, but look at the military-industrial complex or look at the space the space industry or look at the energy industry.

[00:32:53]These are entirely subsidized industries. They they already actually in a way look the way I'm describing the rest of the economy should be designed.

[00:33:02]So the same way that the space industry is entirely paid for by the federal government through taxes, right? And then SpaceX can become a multi-billion dollar hundred billion dollar business.

[00:33:14]It's only getting incomes from the government >> almost entirely, right? Maybe maybe it sends up satellites for some other people, but mostly it's the government.

[00:33:22]Yeah.

[00:33:23]>> So that's the same. I'm just saying let's run housing the same way, right?

[00:33:27]You can still have free businesses and innovation and startups, but the buyer is going to often be either the government directly or it's going to be people with money who have money because the government gave them money. I see whether it's through a make work program or a federal job or through um you know or some kind of basic income or stimulus check whatever the case may be.

[00:33:50]>> Yeah. Which is a basic income, right?

[00:33:51]Some kind of basic income. I I'm not in favor of the basic income now. I I mean we could get a small one started so that we're ready to kind of turn the knob up in the future, but it right now far more important than that is universal healthcare, education, and making sure we have universal housing. Yeah.

[00:34:08]>> Um and a un a basic income doesn't really fix all that. Um I also think we should have a federal job guarantee. So >> it's also there's there's very clear data that psychologically it's very damaging, especially for men. uh not to be sexist, but the data really says it quite clearly. Women when they get unemployed, the as a trend, this isn't all women, but the majority of women, they respond in a much more psychologically healthy way. They they start to sort of pay attention more in their homes to their family members and their loved ones. They start to like volunteer.

[00:34:41]>> They lean into the caregiver aspect.

[00:34:43]>> Yeah. And they also retrain much easier.

[00:34:45]They're like, "Oh, I'm going to go take a class and become a nurse." There's they like retrain very easily. They're very open to it. Most women uh this is like 60 70% of women. This is very Yeah.

[00:34:56]Very well studied. I'm not just you know Andrew Yang talks about this too. But men don't men kind of lean into like you know like what is it porn gambling you know like sitting around at home watching TV smoking pot you know playing. You know what you and we're laughing >> because all I get Yeah. There's that whole like go >> right >> got nothing. what am I going to do?

[00:35:18]>> Why don't you why don't you retrain as a radiology technologist? You go like, "Fuck that." You know, I retrain as a radiologist. You know what I mean? Like, so, so men suffer a lot psychologically and sociologically, they they are the bearers of a lot of these social ills.

[00:35:33]Um, and you can think of it just look at suicide rates, look at opium overdose rates, look at these are all men, you know, it's predominantly male uh thing, which is bad. I mean women also suffer under it and they suffer the consequences of their menffected by this right >> but but so the reality is something like a federal job guarantee is really important psychologically. Yeah. So, we need to have like, you know, whether it's a Green New Deal or just an ongoing bunch of infrastructure projects. And you just need to be able to walk into a Social Security office and be like, "I'd like to have a job." And they just slap a shovel in your hand and they're like, "You have a job."

[00:36:11]>> Because if you don't have that, you're just going to have all these men who are just out of work and are just like total like dread, you know, dredge dreg.

[00:36:19]>> What um what risks included? What what risks do you see if we fail to manage this transition effectively?

[00:36:27]>> I I I cannot describe how dangerous what we're going into is. This is from a perspective of history. I mean, I'm a I I've stud you know, I have a classics degree, so I I can talk about history back to, you know, uh ancient times. It is not good at all when you have a bunch of out of work people. That is the powder cake of revolution. And not even just like smart revolution, just just powder cake of let's overturn the apple cart. Let's burn things down. You know, let's just >> mess with things. Uh, you know, I don't think it's because we had, you know, the American Revolution didn't, which was a positive revolution, didn't happen because, you know, there was too many people out of work. The French Revolution happened because of that. And that turned into the reign of terror and burning down cities. And you I think I think the wealthy especially need to to really reckon uh reckon with this.

[00:37:25]>> Yeah. And and we talk about how you know it there is a lot of risks right now beyond just we talked, you know, it used to be marginalized groups, right? We used to talk about how it's going to be the marginalized groups that are going to be the first to suffer and then and you know and we'll have to figure something out for that. But nowadays, as you mentioned, >> it's not marginalized groups. It's white collar jobs. It's it's as you mentioned it's doctors and lawyers.

[00:37:46]>> Uh and and so it's now that it's really drilling into this highly educated professional class.

[00:37:53]>> Uh I I think your you know your uh argument about what we should be fearing here if if we don't manage the transition is very is very true.

[00:38:02]>> Um yeah.

[00:38:03]>> So now how does climate factor into this economic and social transition? I mean we talk about the climate cost of a lot of >> completely destabilizes it makes this it's not good. It's not good. Let's I don't I mean you know this is bad. We are in a bad situation.

[00:38:24]I I don't know how to describe how bad it's so bad. This is like if we just had the AI problem like this question of transitioning to an a a labor uh free economy essentially >> then that would be a a huge problem and a huge challenge. the fact that on a completely different >> plane, >> you know, plane of of of the issue, the climate is rapidly changing and going to cause mass migration, fires, hurricanes, you know, displacement. I mean, displacement is going to be the biggest issue. That's what a lot of people don't seem to be talking about. I don't care if the ocean goes up by 3 feet. I care if the ocean goes up in certain places and five 50 million people then flee, you know, in over two months they all flee to some other part of the world.

[00:39:14]That is a far greater problem and that's what's going to be the biggest problem is is migrations. So, no, the climate makes this a really big problem. Like, you know, um yeah, we're we're we're about to be in like a load of pain. uh especially working people and by working I mean doctors, lawyers as well as you know marketers you know everyone you can think of white collared down are going to be in a load of pain and the billionaires are going to have you know internet connections to their bunkers with AI you know AI robots running their factories so they they're not going to care you know uh >> have you have you ever seen the movie Parasite? One of my favorite, if you've ever seen the movie Parasite, one of my favorite things about that movie is how it shows uh how climate affects different social classes and and it it you know, and it it disproportionately affects >> because it rains.

[00:40:10]>> Yeah. And so the rain tends to affect the ones below.

[00:40:13]>> The rain.

[00:40:14]>> Yeah. And and so, you know, when we take a look at, as you mentioned, this this idea of, you know, the climate, we remember how during co a lot of the billionaires were all we're all in the same boat, except well, your boat is way bigger than mine.

[00:40:24]>> Right. Right.

[00:40:25]>> Yeah. And their boat's actually a boat.

[00:40:27]I mean, they actually literally floats.

[00:40:29]>> The oceans go up, they can go up, >> right?

[00:40:32]>> But I think I think the, you know, um I I am a I'm an idealist and I I like to believe that, you know, there's this saying necessity is the mother of invention. And you're you know, you're saying here, oh, this is it's bad. And yes, I mean it, you know, people like you and I, we see what's coming >> and we can already project how bad it's going to be. But I want to believe and I choose to believe in um human creativity and human innovation being able to >> find problems to the find solutions to these upcoming problems.

[00:41:06]>> Um and I and I think AI and technology is going to be a absolutely part of that solution if not the solution. I mean, I I don't want to say, look, I I just saw the movie Superman, and I can't tell you. One of the things I I thought about that film was I I was like, is Superman being, you know, compared to AI as the savior that's going to come help us and fix everything and make the world a better place? I I don't I mean, I I picked up a little bit on that like like it it was an analogist to AI being that that because we all need that right now.

[00:41:36]We're all looking at the world and there's a lot of things going wrong.

[00:41:38]Yeah.

[00:41:39]>> So, I think that AI could be it, Adam.

[00:41:41]You know, like how do you feel about do you feel like we can innovate our way out of >> this? Let me let me tell you my more likely prediction of what's going to happen. Can I tell you my prediction?

[00:41:50]Sure.

[00:41:50]>> So, my prediction is that we will have mass adoption of AI which will lead to mass unemployment. So we'll have, you know, 50 60% unemployment and people will start to, you know, kill people, blow up blow up capital, you know, cross their trucks across the highway like this, right?

[00:42:10]>> And right as that starts to happen, >> um, using AI, >> billionaires will develop a designer virus that will kill like a fifth of the people of the planet.

[00:42:24]That's what will happen. and and that that will keep everyone indoors which will prevent the destruction of capital and the the the billionaire tech people will be able to say we are here to save you. We will deliver your food every day to your house. We will like protect you from the virus by automating absolutely everything and delivering your food. You know the total technologification of the society and people will say thank you so much but actually it will have been created by the those people would they they will have created that that's what I actually predict will happen and in a way it's a good option like that's actually a good option I think >> but that's really nefarious that that sounds like something out of a Tom Clancy novel you know I mean you're talking about engineering virus. There's a reason Tom Clancy writes those novels, you know, cuz he, you know, because the the billionaire class are convinced that we have like except for Elon Musk, the actual bill the normal billionaires, not Elon Musk have a weird billionaire actually um because he actually created something. Mo most billionaires didn't create anything. So that's what people have to remember. the ultra wealthy. We usually think of like Bill like like Bill Gates or or Bzos or or Elon or Musk, but actually those are the very very rare exceptions. They actually created something like they're actual entrepreneurs who actually like invented made something. The vast majority of of billionaires just did financial engineering. So they just basically tricked the financial markets into giving them billions of dollars. Uh they inherited their money. uh or they have government contracts, which in some ways Musk is really just in that category.

[00:44:00]He's got government contracts.

[00:44:02]>> Uh and and you know that that's the majority of billionaires. So they're not like, "Oh yeah, how do we like fix problems and make the world better?"

[00:44:10]They're not like that. They're they're like, "How do I make it so that we engineer the system so that I'm in my and my family are good and like we own the whole world?" That that's that's the plan, you know?

[00:44:20]>> So yeah, I think that's what'll happen.

[00:44:22]Um this is part of the reason why it's really important for us to stop developing AI uh and have there be like a government like moratorum to really really stop we need to treat AI like nuclear nuclear weapons or nuclear power where there's like inspectors who show up like and are there in the room listening at every town you know every team meeting >> and who can say like okay no we're going to like stop working on that affordance and we're going to work on this other afford you know, and if we don't do that, yeah, I think I think we're in a really um a dark a dark situation.

[00:44:59]That's actually a best case scenario, the pandemic scenario. I think a a more likely scenario is that won't happen and actually we'll have really terrible um you know, migrations of people from climate change together with mass unemployment, which means mass homelessness, which means mass dis despair and death. And then maybe a pandemic starts just because there's mass migrations and that kills tons of people. So it's it's not good. This I really believe we are like blood in the streets. We are like Yeah. Really?

[00:45:30]>> Well, I was going to say what worries me about everything that you're saying is that everything you're saying we're doing the opposite of right now.

[00:45:37]>> Yeah. we're doing the wrong >> like you're talking about a moratorium on AI with you know no like that if anything we're going in the exact opposite which and personally I believe that >> there is absolutely you know the full-on let's AI everything is not necessarily the right answer I mean this is part of what I what I preach to a lot of my clients and to the audience is you know it's the mindful application of AI not just let's AI everything there's places where it doesn't belong >> but beyond that also as you know as you mentioned this idea of providing social services. We're we're going in the opposite direction there where we seem to be gutting uh you know we're moving towards gutting a lot of these services. Yeah.

[00:46:15]>> And everything you know unless you see this is the thing though you have to you have to remember that like the military is what I'm describing. It's a socialist program >> and the military already pays for like 10% of the American economy and and space all of NASA that's all just socialism. That's just the government buying things right. that the same thing uh can be said for the energy market. I mean, oil and fossil fuels are almost entirely subsidized because if the subsidies went away, they would be so expensive, no one would be able to use them.

[00:46:47]>> So, they're essentially entirely subsidized. So, that's all socialism too. So, I we actually don't have like a free market economy at all. Like the economy is mostly socialist. you know the entire energy economy the entire military economy the entire right the weapons I mean America's biggest export and biggest import production is weapons which is bought mostly by the government by the military and by policees you know police forces and coast guards and right that means that that's all what I'm describing that's all socialism in the way that I'm describing it right so so actually in some ways we are going in this way we're just going towards it in like a highly destructive authoritarian awful way like like the the the the enlargement of ICE, right? So, ICE was enlarged to be I think two 80 billion or 200 bill some huge number of tens of billions of dollars budget. 80 billion, right? 80 billion. And $80 billion >> is now going to ICE agents. There's a $40,000 signing bonus and a $100,000 salary for these ICE agents. That's just socialism. That's just make work for men who are unemployed who can't trans, you know, I mean, it's the same thing. It's just a really awful kind of authoritarian police way of doing it instead of like having them build green energy solar power plants or something.

[00:48:00]You know what I mean? Like they could be doing the same thing but just on the side of actually making world better.

[00:48:05]might this be the the the extra push in a very capitalist industrialist direction to then you know usher us into this other age you're talking about in order you know the last squeeze the let's let's make sure our billionaires are ready to go for this I mean you see what I'm saying here right like the the idea of let's get things to be so so so bad and then we have to reverse it uh >> yeah this is called accelerationism right accelerationism means we'll get so bad that then they'll have to get better.

[00:48:37]>> Uh this unfortunately does not work. It turns out as Americans, we have like an we have this positive view of life. We think things are always going to get better because in our history, things have always gotten better in America.

[00:48:48]Like if you just look at the history of America, it's just constantly gotten better. So we think things will get better. But actually in the history of the world, things often get way worse and then they get even worse and then they just keep getting worse and worse and worse and worse.

[00:49:00]>> So accelerationism is quite dangerous.

[00:49:02]uh there's no actual reason for something to get worse for it to then get better. It's actually usually usually if you establish that it's gotten worse, it'll just keep getting worse based on what you the steps you took before. So if we just invest more and more in like a police state and you know we don't respond to the climate crisis but we do invest in a police state then the police it'll continual the next so the next time there's a crisis from the climate or from the economy we'll have many many many militarized policemen there to suppress any kind of like uprising and it'll also say it'll also signal that we need more police officers and militarized you know stuff to to suppress the even bigger issue, right? So, we'll continue to get worse and worse and worse. I I think we'll probably turn into a society much like the ancient Egyptian society. You know, that's the most stable form of society, which is, you know, there's a fraction of 1% of people on the very top who have own everything and then everyone else is just slaves who are policed by, you know, guys with whips.

[00:50:05]That that's probably what we'll end up being. I think >> history repeating itself >> cuz that's just such a stable society.

[00:50:13]>> It's just we're moving towards technoh authoritarian.

[00:50:18]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Technofudalism is what uh is what Giannis what's his name?

[00:50:22]Giannis uh Farcus or whatever he calls it. I I think yeah technofudalism is probably the more likely outcome. But yeah more actually I think more techno Egyptian fair. Yeah, that's more likely even than because feudal feudalism had like these little guys like these little like lords who had some pretty they had a lot of freedom actually. But the Egyptian system there was no freedom all the way down.

[00:50:44]>> Yeah.

[00:50:45]>> And I think that's probably what we're going towards which means which which is why we should go towards the opposite.

[00:50:49]We should go towards a libertarian socialism maximizes freedom of everyone.

[00:50:53]People at the bottom, the top, everyone has maximized freedom.

[00:50:56]>> Yeah.

[00:50:56]>> So >> yeah. Uh but I you're right that we're going in the opposite direction. We we that's what it yeah that's as I mentioned that's definitely um >> that's what it feels like. So um >> yeah um Adam you're I you appear to be frozen on my screen. I don't know if you're >> you freeze occasionally but but uh I keep hearing you so the audio doesn't seem to be cut out.

[00:51:18]>> Yeah. Well, I'll I'll I'll push forward here. I just wanted to point it out just in case there was a way we can we can >> Should I refresh? I can refresh.

[00:51:25]>> Uh yeah, try that.

[00:51:29]We can we can cut this out.

[00:51:31]>> What about that?

[00:51:32]>> Oh, there we go. That's better. All right. Awesome.

[00:51:34]>> Back. Okay. Refresh.

[00:51:35]>> So, I want to I want to pull us out of this really dark dark place.

[00:51:41]>> And so do I.

[00:51:42]>> And and I think, you know, I'm I'm a firm believer and in that now is the day. Yeah. Solutions. And solutions.

[00:51:50]>> I have some solutions.

[00:51:51]>> You have solutions. I want to talk about solutions. Let's let's talk I was going to I was going to go into talking about education as a as a crucial pillar for navigating the transition. That's a big one. So, you know, you're a fellow educator. You know, you're you're you're also a professor. And so, what role, you know, sorry, what role do you see education playing in navigating this transition?

[00:52:12]>> Well, I mean, I would prefer society to turn into like I would actually prefer to see like college, the experience of being in college be people's entire lives in a post labor economy, you know, because what do you do in college? You're completely free, right? You can go and do anything. You live in an environment. Yeah. You're surrounded by community.

[00:52:37]>> You have maximum freedom and you're you're lo learning, growing yourself in all these different ways socially. You have interesting new experiences all the time. You have interesting relationships that are very meaningful for you. M I I think that should be the model of society. I think we should try to make it so that housing is built around communities where people don't have to be constantly crisscrossed by, you know, dangerous cars. I mean, they can have cars, but build the communities so that the cars go around.

[00:53:04]>> Yeah. Exactly.

[00:53:05]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then and then, you know, people should be maximum freedom.

[00:53:09]There's, you know, they can get food whenever they want affordably. And so I so I think college is really important.

[00:53:15]We can't lose college. We need to actually expand >> expand college make it more accessible to everybody >> more. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:22]>> And open it up.

[00:53:23]>> I think education is very important >> and I and I think >> and my so yeah >> and I see you're you're quite you're an artist because based on your the background here so I think you know everyone used to laugh at a liberal arts degree and but now I think that uh if anything um they liberal arts degrees might make a roaring comeback in this in this new age of AI. You know, you know, there's a there's a kind I have a little piece that I wrote about liberal arts.

[00:53:48]You know, I think right now the way we think of liberal arts is a certain a certain curriculum, you know, history and, you know, philosophy and stuff, math maybe. But but the reality of what liberal arts are actually is what Aristotle called liberal arts were the arts that are worthy of and support a free person living in a free society. M >> so so actually those would change in every phase of whatever society you live in.

[00:54:15]>> Yeah.

[00:54:16]>> So like today you can't really be a free person if you can't make money.

[00:54:21]>> So today actually earn you know learning something that can actually earn you money is a liberal art. It must be by definition because it supports a free person living in a free society. So, so what it actually means to be a liberal arts education today is I think very much an open question because we don't actually have that anymore. No, no university in our system is a liberal arts university. None of them.

[00:54:42]>> Because none of them actually say >> what education would lead people to be freer >> and then pursue that. Instead, they say, "Well, we're going to do liberal arts, which is this sort of antiquated sort of, you know, humanities degree, or we're going to do an economics degree or a business degree or something." But but but it's lost on this this focus on freedom is lost now. Can you tell that I'm into freedom? I'm big into freedom.

[00:55:07]>> We should all be. I mean, >> yeah.

[00:55:09]>> It's a fundamental human right.

[00:55:11]>> True freedom. Yeah. True freedom. Not just, you know, you could do it if you had money in your bank account, but you actually can do it.

[00:55:17]>> Yeah.

[00:55:18]>> That money stops being a barrier to you being able to flourish and make choices and do things, you know, >> and that's and that's the promise of this, you know, Peter Dendez talks about, you know, the age of abundance, right? And this the idea behind abundance is that when we move to this age of abundance, the idea is that money should no longer really hold any real value. We don't need to hoard anything, right? We're going to optimize everything to the point where supply and demand are going to meet. We're going to know that equilibrium point.

[00:55:42]Everything's going to be equitably distributed.

[00:55:45]>> And so, you know, we won't really need money anymore. We'll just be able to function as a society. So then truly, as you mentioned, >> you'll need money. Yeah, >> you'll you'll need money because money is just a great information system, you know, but it'll stop being money in the sense that I think you might have meant it, which is like I don't have enough money.

[00:56:02]>> Yeah, I can't do this.

[00:56:04]>> That will be gone. You'll have the money. Yeah. Yeah. You'll have the money to do what you need to do. And so money becomes almost >> it's there, but it's immaterial. It's like a rich person. Yeah. Like a rich person just goes to the grocery store.

[00:56:14]They just put what they want in the cart and they just swipe their little card.

[00:56:18]They don't think about it. That'll be like every everyone should be like that.

[00:56:21]Everyone should just go to the grocery store, put things in their cart, walk out of the grocery store, not care. You they still pay. Yeah. But they have enough money to then not worry about it, right? So So money is a fantastic I always like to say money was the first internet.

[00:56:35]>> Yeah.

[00:56:35]>> Right.

[00:56:35]>> Money was the first say you could Yeah.

[00:56:38]Because you could say like say you were in like uh Rome, you could be like, "Oh man, wheat in Carthage is only 16, you know, 16 shekels a pound." But here wheat is 32 shekels a pound. I'm going to go get I'm going to take a boat from Carthage and bring it here.

[00:56:53]>> That's the internet. That's like, hey, I want to buy this thing from Amazon.

[00:56:56]Press a button on my phone. It comes from the warehouse. It's the same thing.

[00:56:59]It's it's an information system.

[00:57:01]>> Correct.

[00:57:02]>> So, I see money as the first internet >> and it needs to go back to being that.

[00:57:05]It needs to stop being a political tool to make some people a certain class and other people another class who have different privileges. We need to get rid of that and just make it so money is this information system where people can say, "Oh, I need that." And other people can be like, "Great. Here you go. Oh, I need this. Oh, okay, great. Here. It's a signal of what you need and what you want being shot around.

[00:57:24]>> But all this needs to be part of of the narrative and it needs to be something that educators, you know, put out there.

[00:57:31]We need to re I mean, when you think about it, and I this is one of my worries. This is truly what keeps me up at night is that, you know, higher education, and I'm again, this is why I mentioned I want to read your book, but higher education feels like it's becoming more and more irrelevant every day. Um, most people nowadays if if they want to learn skills that are going to help them out in the real world, they're going to YouTube University. You know, they're learning how to run a learned how to paint.

[00:57:56]>> There you go. YouTube University.

[00:57:58]>> Learn how to paint on YouTube University. I never took a single formal class.

[00:58:01]>> And that's what a lot of of uh young men and women are doing. And not just young men and women, professionals. I mean because of the uh you know all of this digital information that we now have available at our fingertips you know uh it is easier than ever to pursue a new hobby to train a new vocational skill >> but that mean where does that leave the higher education universities and you mentioned how it is >> quite difficult to start a university um and so that >> basically impossible yeah >> so that puts the onus on the current existing >> institution ions to >> which refuse to improve which refuse to >> but that's going to have to change I mean the >> well it doesn't have to change we could just have a crappier and crappier society right this is the this is the principle of inshitification have you heard of inshitification >> I have not heard of inshitification >> oh yes you must everyone must google inshitification it just means things getting worse and worse and worse >> yeah but I mean something has to give right that this you know >> it doesn't have to it doesn't ha it would be good if something changed yeah but this is called reform reform.

[00:59:05]>> Yeah.

[00:59:06]>> And reform means you need revolution. I mean, somebody needs to go to the powerful and rest the power away from them. They won't just do it. These universities, the university market is $400 billion a year. It's the same as cars.

[00:59:20]>> Yeah.

[00:59:21]>> It's the same as cars.

[00:59:22]>> Do you think the 3,000 colleges, universities who get to divide $400 billion 3,000 ways will want you to be able to come in and get some of that 400 billion? No. They don't want you to be able to take part of their pie. So, they block you from doing it. It's called a cartel. It's not capitalist or what is somewhat capitalist, but it's not free market and it's not, you know, it's not good commerce.

[00:59:47]>> It it's it again you I I was trying to take education and talk about it in a hopeful way and and >> Oh, we can be hopeful. we can be hopeful >> because I because the way I see it is if people stop go listen if people stop going to to colleges and universities right you know like I I lecture at John's Hopkins I believe that we can improve the curriculum I believe that we can make the curriculum >> better we can teach the right stuff we can teach ethics we can talk about all these things that are important to >> to essentially bring a new generation of uh of um humans that that know how to function in this new society Uh and I think that you know they um there's a there's a saying that I really love uh I re I mentioned it a lot the idea of philosophy eats AI right this aspect of when we talk about AI is this big automation thing that's going to do all this stuff >> well then okay and AI creates and can do this well what what is what does it mean now to be a human right what's our purpose if everything can just be done so philosophy so philosophy eats AI which means that as humans we really need to to go back and read philosophy and understand what the point of all this is like why are we make why are we building all this stuff up? Why are we why do we even have this whole, you know, society in the first place? What are we trying to do, right? What is what does it mean to be a human? Especially in as you mentioned, you know, when when males have no jobs now, what what should they do, right? Like if they're not going >> besides besides porn, >> besides porn and pot, right? Exactly.

[01:01:15]You know, you know, I I mean, I look I see I see >> I think we should get them a job. That's the thing. We can't There is >> But do they need it though? Maybe >> they need it. Yeah, they do. They do.

[01:01:24]Yeah.

[01:01:25]>> Maybe they should just paint and and and uh and create music and act.

[01:01:30]>> We should give them Yeah. We should give them jobs as painting then or something.

[01:01:33]We But they people aren't just going to they aren't just going to sort of change. Let me put it this way. The social contract that people work and then are rewarded for their labor and then go and, you know, live their lives is about 3,000 years old.

[01:01:52]>> Yeah. So we haven't really found an alternative in those three oldest time.

[01:01:56]Yeah. Basically, right?

[01:01:57]>> Yeah. Extremely wealthy people could give you an example of this, right? So extremely wealthy people don't have to work >> and they're extremely unhappy and lonely. So the the the levels of the levels of of disappointment, depression, loneliness, sadness, bad negative affect among the extremely wealthy is super high.

[01:02:19]>> They're not happy. It's not healthy to be that wealthy. Actually, it's not good. I mean, people want to because it's like that's the goal. Get rich, make a lot of money. Oh, I want to make more money. But actually, it won't. It doesn't. It doesn't just not make you happy. It literally makes you sad and alienated and alone. And, you know, look at Elon Musk. He's he's super depressed.

[01:02:37]He does ketamine to and and all these other drugs to try to like, you know, distract himself from his extreme sadness. Alienation.

[01:02:44]>> He's also trying he's also trying to leave the planet. He's done with Earth, you know.

[01:02:48]>> Yeah. Exactly. He's like so alienated he has to leave the planet of his birth.

[01:02:52]Right. Yeah. So, so you know, so I think if the wealthy are any indication, people need work and the wealthy because the wealthy are not happy.

[01:03:00]>> You know, there's no there's no, you know, the happiest you can be is the upper middle class.

[01:03:07]>> Yeah.

[01:03:07]>> That's the happiest you can be.

[01:03:09]>> Yeah. There's you have enough constraints.

[01:03:11]>> Yeah. You know, >> you have that figure about how you only need like 75,000 or maybe like something like that, $100,000 maybe not adjusted for inflation just to be okay. Like you're good to go.

[01:03:20]>> Right. Right. So if you make like $250,000 a year, you're the happiest you can be.

[01:03:25]>> Yeah.

[01:03:25]>> That's the happiest you can be because if you get much more, >> you know, you end up in this place where you're alienated from everyone else.

[01:03:33]>> Yeah.

[01:03:33]>> And you are totally alone because no one's as wealthy as you are.

[01:03:37]>> Yeah. and you have all these weird and you're not constrained by any kind of job that you have, you know, motivation to try to do something. You know, these constraints actually help us to live our lives. Too many constraints is bad. I can't go to the hospital. I can't go to the doctor. I can't feed my kid. Those are bad constraints. But the constraint like, yeah, I need to continue to be a member of this community and I need to continue to support the people who rely on me, you know, those are good constraints. That's psychologically really healthy, you know. So, so yeah, I think I think yeah, this is not a I'm not saying get rid of billionaires. I know everyone loves to say kill the billionaires. I'm saying >> let's just get rid of poverty. Yeah. And then if that means we have to tax billionaires, that's okay cuz they don't need the money, they're fine.

[01:04:19]>> And we we have a model of this already.

[01:04:21]I mean, there are European countries that have figured this out. The happiness index, the idea of okay, look, as long as everybody is is making very good money in general and uh you know, is able to live life. actually uh you know one of the countries that comes to mind is Saudi Arabia, >> right? Like Saudi Arabia basically doss out money to everybody in in their society. So their their people are are happy. That's because they have they have that wealth. They have that money.

[01:04:46]They can do that, right?

[01:04:47]>> Uh so there are models of that. Yeah. We should be like Saudi Arabia, but instead of oil, we have AI. That's that's really the society we should build. And I and I think that that's >> there there is the problem with Saudi Arabia that they have all the slaves from that are mostly out like outsiders that they bring in and then there >> well they're buildings and stuff.

[01:05:05]>> They're not slaves in the sense they're indentured. Yeah. They're kind of uh they're the labor force. They're the labor. But once they can't improve their situation, right? Right.

[01:05:16]>> So yeah, >> that but once but like they're treating the Saudis. Yeah.

[01:05:20]>> Yeah. No, I understand what you mean.

[01:05:21]>> But your point is good though. Your point is good about how the Saudis treat oil as this resource that then they socialize >> socialize. Yeah.

[01:05:28]>> Exactly. Yeah. We should socialize the benefits of AI and that means taxing the wealthy through wealth taxes. That means taxing uh raising the capital gains tax to be the same as income tax. Lower income tax because why should we be taxing the thing that's shrinking the work, right? So, we should lower income taxes, raise capital gains taxes, raise uh all the ways you tax wealth. estate taxes, uh um property taxes on houses, wealth tax, which is just property tax on stocks and bonds. Uh close the the close the the the what's it called? The um carried interest loop tax who tax loophole. Uh you know, there's a whole there's probably 15 things that would put the tax burden onto AI instead of having the tax burden be on the fleshbags, the the human workers, you know, which is silly.

[01:06:18]>> I just I just don't see that happening.

[01:06:20]I don't see that. I don't see because here's the problem.

[01:06:22]>> Politically.

[01:06:23]>> Politically. Yeah. Because because and even if you're wealthy and as you mentioned, you're wealthy, you're you're depressed because you have too much money.

[01:06:30]>> And but you're looking at this.

[01:06:32]>> I just want everyone to be clear.

[01:06:33]They're not happy. Wealthy people are not.

[01:06:35]>> But you know what makes them more unhappy is somebody like Uncle Sam going to them and saying, "Hey, I'm going to charge you more now." Like I I >> It doesn't make them more unhappy. It doesn't They don't prefer it. They fight against it, but it actually makes them happier to be poorer >> if they only knew. But but the thing is, >> well, it does. It does. It does. If they're poorer, they'd be happier. If you ask them, they'll tell you like, "Yeah, I was happiest when I was building my business."

[01:06:59]>> You know, if that's the case, I don't >> I was building my business. Yeah. They say that before they got wealthy, but I don't see when they were happy. I don't see them giving out money. Really? You know what I mean? That's the other thing.

[01:07:10]>> Some do, you know, >> because when you get Yeah.

[01:07:12]>> Bill Gates has the Gates Foundation and everything. So there are there are philanthropists out there.

[01:07:16]>> That's just that's just him laundering his his reputation. Um but seriously that's called big philanthropy. It's a huge scam. But uh well Bill Gates probably the least worst of of all of them in that department. But yeah but but no if if you look at this they'll say when I was building my business I was the happiest. That means before they were wealthy. Right. Right. That that's when they were happiest. They had those constraints. Oh I have to achieve this.

[01:07:38]I have to do as soon as they're truly wealthy they're like >> okay well I got it done. What do I do now?

[01:07:43]>> Look at the Look at the sad uh the sad moon god. The guy that trying to live forever. Brian's whatever guy. He's so sad. Clearly the guy who wants to live forever and he does like he has like a skin made that looks like he's dead already.

[01:07:57]>> Oh, I'm not sure what you're talking I know Ray Kers.

[01:07:59]>> He's the longevity guy. No, he's the longevity guy. Um >> Brian, he was the founder one of the founders of Brainree and then Anyways, he's so he seems so lonely. Like look at him. He just looks like a sad sap, lonely guy. He just has $350 million so he like can do whatever he wants. So he's super unhappy.

[01:08:18]>> Um so unhappy he has to like pretend his whole identity is like trying to live forever. It's just crazy, you know. So >> because they're trying to find meaning, you know, they're trying to find meaning.

[01:08:27]>> Yeah, right. They're trying to construct meaning.

[01:08:29]>> Yeah. Right.

[01:08:30]>> So Okay. So here's >> let me let me tell you let me tell you how we fix this. I'll tell you the political solution. All right. It's called rank choice voting.

[01:08:37]>> Okay. Rank choice voting. Okay. called rank choice voting. This is the solution. I think this is the solution.

[01:08:42]So rank choice voting just means uh that you know instead of voting for just one person like if you get your ballot, you know, you usually just vote for one like you can either vote for Joe Biden or you can vote for Donald Trump, right? You vote for one.

[01:08:55]>> Yeah.

[01:08:55]>> Uh you can't, you know, or you could vote for a green c you could vote for, you know, there's a whole list, but you just vote for one. Rank choice voting there's a table and you vote first choice, second choice, third choice, fourth choice, as many choices as you like.

[01:09:06]>> Okay.

[01:09:06]>> Okay. And when you do that, it means that if your first choice doesn't get 50% of the vote in the first round of counting, then that gets blocked off and your second choice counts.

[01:09:17]>> Okay?

[01:09:18]>> And if your second choice doesn't get 50%, then your third choice counts, >> okay?

[01:09:22]>> Down as far as you go. You might just put two. You can even just put one, but you could put two, three, four, five, whatever.

[01:09:27]>> Right? And when you do this, it changes politics for the better because it eliminates extremism >> from political discourse. So because if you're running, if you and I are both running for office, >> if I say Mo's, you know, Mo's crazy and he he'll he'll run the country into a ditch and don't trust him and he's, you know, he's what people say about Trump, what people say about Biden, he's demented, he's a porn pornographer, pedophile. People say these insane things. Okay. I would never as your opponent say that because I want your people to put me as second.

[01:10:03]>> Oh, I see.

[01:10:04]>> In case you don't get 51% of >> So you don't take polar opposite. You don't go I'm going to be the exact opposite of what Adam's saying, >> right? And and I don't say Mo's a bad guy. Mo's evil. Mo he's don't vote for him. I say Mo, we disagree. We disagree on fundamental things, but Mo's a family man. He's a full I trust him.

[01:10:21]>> Yeah.

[01:10:22]>> But because I want you people consider.

[01:10:25]Yeah. So then they might they might like me a lot, but they're like, you know, this Adam guy is not so bad either.

[01:10:29]>> He's got some good ideas. If Mo can't win, then I'd take Adam, right? So So it eliminates political extremism from the the discourse because the politicians stop mudslinging >> because today mudslinging works.

[01:10:42]>> Proof point.

[01:10:43]>> Well, yeah. And we call it the tyranny of the majority, right? Where they because of the fact that you you get this huge base that just believes in you and and they think everybody else is wrong.

[01:10:51]>> Right. Exactly. Exactly. those people would lose because they would put like 30% of the vote would be for Donald Trump first choice and now that would >> lose because not 50%. And now all those people's second choices would count, >> right? So you're not going to win if you're a divisive extremist candidate with rank choice voting.

[01:11:10]>> Yeah.

[01:11:10]>> So rank choice voting is a fantastic system. We use it we use it there's they use it in various parts of the country.

[01:11:15]Alaska uses rank choice voting. Maine uses rank choice voting. Nevada just adopted rank choice voting. So, it's sweeping the country in the last 20 years. Um, it's being adopted in a lot of cities around the country for their mayoral and city council elections.

[01:11:30]>> Um, basically the way you get this nationwide is you, uh, get it adopted in cities. Urbanites are like very in favor of this.

[01:11:39]>> Um, so you can get the cities really easily and then once you have most of the cities in your in your state rank choice voting, then you can try to get it passed at the state level. Then the states adopt it. When you have the states adopted, now senator elections, Congress elections are all now rank choice voting. And now those people going to the Congress and the Senate aren't radicalized crazy people. They're >> they're middle of the road people who talk about solutions, who want to solve problems, who want to right.

[01:12:05]>> So So rank choice voting is, I think, the solution to this because it eliminates the >> um it also eliminates the two-party system, >> right? Because the parties can still exist, but they stop controlling >> Israel. That is kind that that to me has been >> uh the in my opinion one of the biggest problems is the two-party system because it you know this idea of you know >> we have uh you George Carlin used to talk about this we have you know 20 different flavors of ice cream but only two only two parties. Right. Right.

[01:12:35]Exactly. And I don't care if there's more than two parties but I just want even diversity inside of the parties to be able to actually be able to get power and thrive. Yeah. You know, so rank choice voting, I think, is the solution to really all of our problems because once you have the right leadership at the helm, they can then do all these things. They can fix AI with a moratorum or they can fix AI with more social services. You know, they can fix immigration with actual immigration policy that would actually overhaul and fix our immigration system. or you know they could actually fix things with real solutions instead of these sort of uh you know sort of band-aids that are not not healthy not good.

[01:13:16]>> I want to posit one more idea and I want your input on this. Um sure you know you said that the the way to solve this is is through some form of policy or changing you know like this this idea of of a rankbased system.

[01:13:30]>> Uh what did you call it? You called it uh >> rank choice voting.

[01:13:33]>> Rank choice voting. Thank you. I I didn't know about this.

[01:13:36]>> But uh but so I I think that that's perhaps a tall order because you know the way the current um uh politics seem to be going I I just don't see that happening. I and and this is what I what I'd like to posit to you is the idea that I believe that you know human innovation you know guys like you and me who are going to um utilize the tech and and find better ways to solve societal problems. I think that's the hope, you know, like the guy who invented the internet, I don't know if you know the internet, when when the internet was invented, I forget his name actually. I should know this, but uh he basically when he invented the internet, he he gave it away for free. He he said, "Oh, this this is this needs to be a a basic good for everybody." If it weren't for that guy, and you know, I'll put his note I'll put his name in in in the in the uh in the after, but he if it weren't for him, >> then the internet would not have been this free, you know, resource that everybody gets to use. And so I think similarly there are going to be innovators out there that are going to come up with solutions AIdriven solutions that are going to cost you know pennies on the dollar that then will perhaps be able to bring that to the masses. I think of somebody like you know Kh Khan Academy right or or some of these um some of these dogooders out there that are going to try to bring some real solutions to society. I I posit that I think those are going to be the the ones that will help us usher in this um >> this uh you know uh this kind of no you see a more positive yeah I I I think that uh there there's a possibility that something like this >> you know some some kind of tool um you know uh happens that that does that but I think it's unlikely you know that that's not the stated goal right The stated goal is a scarcity mindset goal which is you know create a create a system charge for it make as much money as possible from it >> automate as many jobs as possible >> but we just have to convince people that this abundance is possible I mean and and I think the way to convince them is by is by building something that goes hey look you have this now >> yeah I think it's more through a political I think it's more through a democratic political process to do that educ to do that convent conviction so like you know I think Zoron Mandami is actually part of this. So he is it New York City is a rank choice voting city.

[01:16:05]>> Oh they are. Okay. So okay.

[01:16:06]>> Yeah. So that's how he was able to win was because if if there had been not rank choice voting then people would have said you can't vote for him because he won't he won't win against the Republican or whatever. And so they say they they say electability, but people in their conscience were like, "No, we'd like Zoron. Like, we'd like free fast buses and and universal child care and and to freeze the rent, you know, we'd like these sort of baseline, you know, improvements to to to New Yorkers lives." And then and then he won the primary. Hopefully he'll I think hopefully he'll win the um the the the main election, too. Again, because that's rank choice voting. People can vote their conscience for their first choice. They can also put Mandani as their second choice if they like maybe they like someone else but then they like Mandani next and he'll still pick up that vote, right? Because he's this smiley great guy, which I you know I trust him to be the mayor if I were in New York. Um but but that's an example of what would happen in other environments with rank choice voting is you would actually see people with good ideas actually get into power. Like right now, our your and my lives, we know as 40-year-olds or whatever, as middle-aged people that >> it's always a choice between two of two evils. That's what all of our presidential elections have been. That's what most of the elections that I do are. That's not because politics is garbage. That's because first pass the post voting is garbage.

[01:17:27]>> I see.

[01:17:28]>> In a rank choice system, you're picking among the best options. M >> you're picking, man, I really like this lady, but this guy's really great, too.

[01:17:37]Man, I don't know which one to put in what order. Like, that's the actual way you get to when you have an a robust rank choice voting system. Yeah.

[01:17:44]>> And once you put the best people in power, they'll start to actually do things good for the people. And the people will start to think, hey, life can be better. Life can be a lot better.

[01:17:53]We can have great things. we can have fast and free buses and affordable housing and our healthcare cannot be a complete utter total despicable nightmare like it is now in America. Um and so I think that's our biggest hope is is rank choice voting because also by the way rank choice voting is supported by 90% of people both right and left. So if you poll Americans and you say are you in favor of rank choice voting they don't know what rank choice voting is some of them as soon as they learn what it is 90% of people are in favor >> in favor of it. It's a nonpartisan issue. It is supported. The the Republicans want it. The MAGA people want it.

[01:18:27]>> Yeah.

[01:18:27]>> The Republicans want it. The the the AOC crazy, you know, woke people want it.

[01:18:33]The corporate Dems want it. Everybody wants it.

[01:18:36]>> Yeah.

[01:18:36]>> Because it means you get better choices.

[01:18:38]You get more choice. You get to express yourself more.

[01:18:42]>> Well, I want to I want to end on a hopeful note here, Adam. And I think that that this is this is a good that's a good place to uh to to end is this idea that we we can usher this in um and we can start electing people in this way um and not have this really really polar uh you know situation of Democrats versus Republicans. Um especially because let's be honest you know um and I hate to say this but >> you know the the Democratic base is just is in is in pieces. Um, and it is it is >> and so I'm not I'm not confident that we're, you know, that that the Democratic Party as we know it is going to be able to make this, you know, swinging comeback.

[01:19:23]>> Um, no. But but as you mentioned >> without without without rank choice voting without rank choice voting I think they would I think they would be able to make >> and that's why I think Mani is is you know drawing a lot of attention right now because he is you know a hopeful figure and we are seeing people say hey yeah he's not such a bad guy and he's he's talking about some um very very uh you know again new ideas for how we're going to serve society >> right >> so I I think that that is that is a good hopeful note to end on. I think we're we're headed in that direction.

[01:19:54]>> Yeah. Yeah. I think I think we can do it. We just have to make the right choices, not the wrong ones. Um I think one of the key things that I'm starting to realize about myself is I was like a libertarian in college and like I've always been kind of like a libertarian, like a red-blooded capitalist like entrepreneur. You know, free markets.

[01:20:14]Yeah. Yeah. Free markets and everything.

[01:20:16]Yeah. Yeah. and and um and what I've realized now is from reading those classical economists is that >> we're at the point now where >> socialistic libertarian socialistic ideas and policies actually are libertarian >> like >> having free healthcare is a libertarian idea in a post- labor economy.

[01:20:38]it is, you know, without without universal health care, you don't have a libertarian society, everyone will be completely screwed because they won't have health insurance, they won't have healthare.

[01:20:49]Um, so it's that's that's an interesting thing where people think like socialism is on the left and free markets are on the right, but actually that's not true anymore. AI means that socialism is on the right.

[01:21:02]>> Yeah. If you are a right-wing libertarian, you should now start to want universal healthcare or taxing the wealthy. Like you should that that's just the next step of evolution of a free market.

[01:21:13]>> And that you're reiterating my core bizarre thing.

[01:21:15]>> You're reiterating the core core message that I point out which is that technology must serve humanity, right?

[01:21:21]Not the other way around. And so now that we're enabling tech to really really truly help us out in new and innovative and and and efficient ways with AI, we now have to find the way for it to serve humans.

[01:21:33]>> And it's got to serve us.

[01:21:35]>> It's got to serve us. It's got to restore, you know, things like, you know, justice and and you know, human dignity and all these things that we want in, you know, as free people.

[01:21:46]Uh, we need tech to help usher in more of that because right now it it doesn't feel like that.

[01:21:53]>> Um, >> yeah, >> this is a heady conversation, Mo.

[01:21:57]>> It it is.

[01:21:57]>> I'm sorry I took us I took us down into the nether world of of of blood running in the streets and billionaire p created pandemics, but now we've we've come back to the high bright grounds of we'll just fix our democracy and use technology for good.

[01:22:14]We'll see which one it is. It'll be one or the other.

[01:22:17]>> It'll be one of the other. We'll probably muddle along in the middle.

[01:22:19]Maybe we'll muddle along in the middle.

[01:22:21]But >> yeah, >> it's Yeah, >> I I Well, I appreciate this conversation very much, Adam. Truly, your ideas are revolutionary. I I think that people need to wake up to what is happening right now.

[01:22:31]>> Um they need to educate themselves. um not just about AI and and you know AI literacy which I think is incredibly important nowadays but they also need to educate themselves about um you know what what the future is going to look like and where they fit in it.

[01:22:47]>> Um so I appreciate you. Thank you so much for for coming on the show.

[01:22:51]>> Uh thank you. It was a pleasure and and uh and now I want to kind of point to the audience and and say, "Hey, look, in a world where AI fulfills all your material needs, what how would you choose to live your life?" Right? Let's, you know, if if if everything is taken care of for you and you've got this universal health care and all of that stuff, what would you then do in this post labor economic world? You know, please leave your uh comments on the episode and I appreciate very much uh your viewership and and Adam, thank you again for for all your insights. Um, I'll tell you one thing. I personally would dive deeper into education, into community building, into helping other people thrive. And me personally, as a believer, I would devote more time to the creator, uh, to to showing gratitude to the creator. And these are things that, you know, I I think that we all need to spend more time doing. So, uh, thank you so much. Uh, it's been an absolute pleasure. Uh, and thank you.

[01:23:43]This has been another episode of Beyond the Bite.